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Sun Oct 21, 2012, 08:40 AM

This country is so majorly fucked up

sometimes I feel we really are beyond any kind of redemption The ugly truth is that this is a pretty brutal and ugly nation. We seem too far gone on capitalism run amok to change course, and though the democratic party is far, far preferable to the rethugs, it rarely challenges the hideous status quo.

Of course I support President Obama. I think he's a good man, but he's also ensnared in the dominant system and ethos.

Over the last forty years we've moved so far into the corporate maw that we're now in the belly of the beast being digested.

I see no way out of this. That doesn't mean we shouldn't vote. It doesn't mean we shouldn't fight all the way to the bitter end, but no matter how or when I ponder, I keep arriving at the same conclusions. My father told me 40 years ago that we were going down this track. I can't even count the number of times that he said the greatest threat to our society is the growing gap between rich and poor. He was a successful small business man with an absolute loathing for large corporations and the Harvard B School mentality. He said that they'd be the ruin of this country.

I argued with him then and said it wouldn't come to this.

I was wrong.

107 replies, 9839 views

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Arrow 107 replies Author Time Post
Reply This country is so majorly fucked up (Original post)
cali Oct 2012 OP
Cooley Hurd Oct 2012 #1
southernyankeebelle Oct 2012 #63
mmonk Oct 2012 #2
CanonRay Oct 2012 #3
rock Oct 2012 #4
harmonicon Oct 2012 #19
rock Oct 2012 #50
alterfurz Oct 2012 #61
bob4460 Oct 2012 #84
harmonicon Oct 2012 #87
byeya Oct 2012 #5
mnhtnbb Oct 2012 #6
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #48
mnhtnbb Oct 2012 #72
asjr Oct 2012 #7
MineralMan Oct 2012 #8
Bonobo Oct 2012 #10
MineralMan Oct 2012 #23
Bonobo Oct 2012 #49
Le Taz Hot Oct 2012 #12
Cooley Hurd Oct 2012 #14
MineralMan Oct 2012 #20
Kindly Refrain Oct 2012 #16
MineralMan Oct 2012 #22
Kindly Refrain Oct 2012 #24
MineralMan Oct 2012 #27
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #55
MineralMan Oct 2012 #71
ronnie624 Oct 2012 #73
MineralMan Oct 2012 #74
ronnie624 Oct 2012 #76
MineralMan Oct 2012 #80
ronnie624 Oct 2012 #81
MineralMan Oct 2012 #83
ronnie624 Oct 2012 #86
Bonobo Oct 2012 #103
cali Oct 2012 #90
frostfern Oct 2012 #100
LiberalElite Oct 2012 #101
JackN415 Oct 2012 #9
Doc Holliday Oct 2012 #45
notundecided Oct 2012 #65
boston bean Oct 2012 #11
rudycantfail Oct 2012 #46
longship Oct 2012 #13
12AngryBorneoWildmen Oct 2012 #25
longship Oct 2012 #69
12AngryBorneoWildmen Oct 2012 #79
Coyotl Oct 2012 #15
Arugula Latte Oct 2012 #104
CrispyQ Oct 2012 #17
nolabels Oct 2012 #18
midnight Oct 2012 #21
NYC Liberal Oct 2012 #26
Poll_Blind Oct 2012 #35
NYC Liberal Oct 2012 #51
ibegurpard Oct 2012 #42
NYC Liberal Oct 2012 #56
Stonepounder Oct 2012 #28
taterguy Oct 2012 #29
MineralMan Oct 2012 #41
BeyondGeography Oct 2012 #30
underthematrix Oct 2012 #31
GitRDun Oct 2012 #32
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #57
GitRDun Oct 2012 #62
Agony Oct 2012 #98
moondust Oct 2012 #33
ann--- Oct 2012 #34
angrychair Oct 2012 #36
NRaleighLiberal Oct 2012 #37
adirondacker Oct 2012 #38
salib Oct 2012 #39
Auggie Oct 2012 #40
etherealtruth Oct 2012 #44
Auggie Oct 2012 #52
leftstreet Oct 2012 #75
Auggie Oct 2012 #85
leftstreet Oct 2012 #91
Doctor_J Oct 2012 #92
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #43
blue neen Oct 2012 #47
world wide wally Oct 2012 #53
cheriemedium59 Oct 2012 #54
Faygo Kid Oct 2012 #58
Whisp Oct 2012 #59
jerseyjack Oct 2012 #60
nolabels Oct 2012 #68
AlinPA Oct 2012 #64
NoPasaran Oct 2012 #66
kevinbgoode1 Oct 2012 #67
99Forever Oct 2012 #70
taught_me_patience Oct 2012 #77
Carolina Oct 2012 #78
kimbutgar Oct 2012 #82
warrprayer Oct 2012 #88
devilgrrl Oct 2012 #89
Skittles Oct 2012 #93
Klukie Oct 2012 #94
okieinpain Oct 2012 #95
underthematrix Oct 2012 #96
kentuck Oct 2012 #97
bvar22 Oct 2012 #99
sabrina 1 Oct 2012 #102
GeorgeGist Oct 2012 #105
Arugula Latte Oct 2012 #106
SleeplessinSoCal Oct 2012 #107

Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:02 AM

1. Excellent post Cali...

We (as a nation) are very FU'd in regard to accepting different points-of-view. The unique point-of-view that America-can-do-no-wrong, also known as "American Exceptionalism", has made our citizenry numb to the truth.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:26 AM

63. Your right. As soon as this country comes to grip with the facts we are not an "exceptional"

 

country then maybe we can start pulling ourselves back up. Especially the republican party who are in denial. We get Romney we will get constant wars. Our grandchildren will never have the opportunity to grow up. This country is handling the middle east problem wrong. We need the FBI and local states to watch out for terrorists not on a world wide patrol. America seems to forget Europe had been dealing with these kinds of terrorist for years before 9/11 and america did nothing to help them. We need to be on defense. When we find out anything that helps Europe or Asia then pass the message to them. We are giving those groups what they want. We are running in around and around and nothing is getting done.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:05 AM

2. Yep. Excellent post.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:06 AM

3. I feel exactly the same way

the behavior that is done right out in the open in this election, without so much as a peep out of the press. The voting shenanigans, the complete corporate dominance. I do not see a way out short of a violent revolution which I dread. I sincerely hope I am wrong, or dead when it finally happens. But I keep voting and helping candidates...must be habit.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:07 AM

4. Well, we have trained about half the nation to be politically ignorant

But they insist on voting anyway. Which I admit they have the right to.

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Response to rock (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:21 AM

19. Half? You jest. Surely it must be something more like 97% (nt)

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Response to harmonicon (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:05 AM

50. Well, of course you could be right

Maybe the vast majority of Dems are politically ignorant. I know that ALL the republiCONs are.

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Response to rock (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:14 AM

61. Half the nation, according to Carlin

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Response to rock (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:59 PM

84. No No No

it is only half of the 40 % of people that vote,so about 20% ignorant. The problem is not enough people vote, if everyone voted we would win all the time!!

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Response to bob4460 (Reply #84)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 01:46 PM

87. That's not how it works.

When you see a percentage of the population as participating in elections, it's not always the exact same people making up that percentage every time. The truth is, most people vote some of the time, but in any one election it will only be X% voting.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:12 AM

5. Militarism; Unregulated capitalism; A nest of ultra-wealthy refusing to contribute to the common

 

good; starvation of public health services, infrastructure, and public schools; envirnomental destruction; and roadblocks to voting to name a few.
Quality of life studies like rates of child poverty, access to health services, and corruption all show the USA is near the bottom among industrialized nations and sinking.

We need enforcement of anti-trust laws; an equal playing field for unions; a return equal time media regulation; and tuition free higher education in public universities.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:35 AM

6. It's so true. The gap between rich and poor keeps getting wider and

will either lead to another revolution or the downfall of the country. It
breaks my heart to think about it...to imagine what life will be like
for my kids--26 and 22-- when they reach retirement age.

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Response to mnhtnbb (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:03 AM

48. I'm the same age as your oldest.

I'm currently stuck at a low-pay job at a local thrift store. I'm trying to get my Bachelor's, but I'm doing it one class at a time because I refuse to take out loans (I'm studying Psychology). My Asperger's doesn't help, either, employers have become extremely ruthless in job interviews and my social awkwardness always screws me over.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #48)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:54 AM

72. I'm sorry you are having such a difficult time. My oldest didn't go to college--computer geek--

and he was laid off 3 times in about 2 years from 2005-2007. He's now working for a software
company developing apps for phones--loves it--and is doing well.

My youngest graduated last May from UNC-Chapel Hill--got a job right away using
his German (one of his majors) but was laid off end of August. He's now working
for a group--minimum wage plus commission--fighting Citizens United. Wants to
go to graduate school in 2013 and has applied for a Fulbright Scholarship in Germany
for next year. I'm hoping he'll get the Fulbright--like Germany so well that he'll find
a way to stay. This son is legally blind--has a juvenile genetic form of macular
degeneration--so he can't do a lot of jobs and has to rely on public transportation
to get to a job.

Good luck!

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:45 AM

7. You echo my thoughts on this matter. I have

never felt this before. Now I feel the lock on my door has been picked and there is nothing I can do about it. The marauders are coming in and are being aided by the media in this country. They know all about the voting irregularities but will not inform the public. The media will elect Romney without batting an eyelash. The entire media made a mountain out of a mole hill about the first debate between Obama and Romney. They know Romney is only a figurehead and will drive us straight down to another third world status. They know President Obama has helped us get on the long road to sanity but will never acknowledge it. They have embraced the Republicans so much they do not care if we are aware of it or not. I've always tried to see the glass as half full but even at the age of 80 I can see only a couple of drops of sanity in it. I can only hope the votes are counted properly and Romney does not win but I will not bet on it.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:48 AM

8. Pessimists have always said the same thing you are saying.

Always. It's what pessimists do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pessimism

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:05 AM

10. Wow, that was lame. Even more than usual. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:25 AM

23. Thanks for your reply.

I disagree.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #23)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:05 AM

49. You're on a roll, man! nt

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:09 AM

12. USA! USA! USA!

Yer right. We totally rawk, dude! W'ere 'Merica and can do no wrong!

We're number 1! We're number 1! We're number 1!

Is that more in line with what you think we should be doing?

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:11 AM

14. America! Fuck yeah!

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:22 AM

20. I didn't say anything of the sort.

I'm an optimist. I believe there are ways to make things better. That's what I work toward. It's just a difference in philosophy, frankly. I'm not chanting anything. I'm just doing what I can to improve the situation.

There are a lot of optimists on DU. There are also a lot of pessimists. That's hardly surprising.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:13 AM

16. Yeah, I'm sure we can just will our way to prosperity and equality.

 

Power of positive thinking? Bunch of woo woo bunk.

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Response to Kindly Refrain (Reply #16)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:24 AM

22. Who suggested that? Will won't do it.

Will along with hard work will. Pessimism is what it is. It's not a bad name or an accusation; it's just a viewpoint some people have. I'm an optimist. I believe that hard work in specific directions will end up with improvements in all areas of society. If I did not believe that, I'd be a pessimist, too.

The OP is expressing pessimism. That's clear enough to see.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #22)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:27 AM

24. You clearly intended to use the word as a slur.

 

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Response to Kindly Refrain (Reply #24)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:29 AM

27. No, I did not.

It is not a slur. It is simply a descriptive word about the OP's post. That post is a pessimistic one, as are most of the OPs by the poster. I take a different direction.

Read the Wikipedia article. It's not a slur at all, but is a philosophical viewpoint I don't share. That's all.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:07 AM

55. I'm an optimist, but that doesn't mean I have to be delusional.

The "always think happy thoughts" meme is another corporate-pushed social pathology.

The optimist does not "always think happy thoughts", the optimist is the person who looks at the situation, even it is horrible and sucktastic, and says "where can we go from here?".

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #55)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:53 AM

71. Yes. I'm the same kind of optimist.

Progress is hard work, but I think we can make progress. We have made progress in many areas in the past. I think we will make progress in many ways in the future, too.

If anyone mistakes me for someone who "always thinks happy thoughts," they'd be wrong. I'm someone who always tries to make good things happen. I'm an optimist.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:12 PM

73. The Wikipedia entry doesn't address the claim made in your title line.

And just calling someone a pessimist isn't a very effective argument in a discussion of complex human interest topics concerning society and politics. It seems like an attempt to avoid coming to grips with the fact that our government's policy establishment and the legislative process are dominated by corporate interests, and that the situation is getting worse. These are things that need to be addressed in a serious manner. They cannot be so easily dismissed. It's only a matter of time before they bite us all in the ass.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #73)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:16 PM

74. Calling someone a pessimist isn't calling them a bad name.

It's not a slur. It's a statement about that person's general outlook. Nothing wrong with being a pessimist. I'm just not one.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #74)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:25 PM

76. I didn't say it was.

I said it doesn't effectively speak to the serious issues raised by the OP.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #76)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:31 PM

80. I'm not discussing the issues.

I'm discussing the "I can't see any way out of this" kind of statement. That's the pessimism. Of course there are issues that need attention. Of course there are changes that need be made. I didn't say or imply that there weren't.

A pessimist believes that it is "too late" or "impossible" to make the needed changes. An optimist doesn't say that. An optimist says, "Let's get to work on that stuff."

One DUer has called what I said a "slur." That's nonsense, and implies that there's something wrong with being a pessimist. There's not. I just don't believe the pessimism is justified and that there are a lot of things we can get done. Throwing up our hands and giving up is not how that will happen. Encouraging people to work toward goals is how it will happen.

See, that's the difference between a pessimist and an optimist when faced with difficult issues. I'm an optimist, and I'm ready to work on the problems. Right now, I'm working on getting the vote out.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #80)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:44 PM

81. No, you aren't.

Very few are.

'Pessimism' is a diversion.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #81)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:49 PM

83. Thanks for your opinion.

Truly.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #83)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 01:46 PM

86. The influence of corporations on our political process is a serious problem, and it's getting worse.

They finance our political campaigns, dominate our legislative process, establish our government policies via their 'revolving door', define the framework for political discourse through ownership of the media establishment, and now they tabulate our votes utilizing proprietary software. Many of us have a problem with this situation. Whether we are pessimists or not, is completely irrelevant.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #80)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:38 PM

103. Posting a Wikipedia article was snarky and denying it just makes you look disingenuous.

Everyone knows what pessimism means.

You know that and so does everyone.

Posting a Wikipedia link to the definition was pure snark.

You know it, I know and everyone knows it.

Denying it compounds the issue by double downing on snark with condescension.

Snarky, condescending and obnoxious.

Don't blame me. You wrote it.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 02:54 PM

90. and much of the time, pessimists are right.

Now what specifically do you disagree with?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:26 PM

100. Real optimism is good...

What I tire of is the cynical way the repukes push their obnoxious brand of fake self-empowerment talk. You know, the "quit slacking and pull yourself up by your bootstraps" schtick. After a while it leaves even the best of optimists with a bad taste in their mouth. Especially when the repukes level it at hard working people, people who are getting screwed over and continuously falling behind, should they dare mention the obvious... that the ENTIRE SYSTEM IS FUCKED UP!

Sure, everyone should put their best effort forward as a personal philosophy, but at the same time you have to acknowledge when there is a systemic problem at hand. Some win some lose, yadda yadda, that's the nature of capitalism. I acknowledge that not everyone can be a "winner" but it takes a special brand of asshole to tell the people drowning in the lower steerage of the sinking ship to "swim harder and maybe we'll allow you to trade places with someone on first deck". Yet it is impossible to get this message through a repukes dense skull, even when it's their own sons and daughters, the future generations, that get to look forward to drowning.

We can't save a sinking ship by telling the bottom people "swim harder and you may have the chance to take the place of someone higher up on the food chain". The phrase "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining" comes to mind. The only way is for everyone to figure out a way to work together and not just for themselves. The last time we had this problem it took the rise of a tyrant in Europa and a world war to wake people up enough to realize that "we're all in this together". I just get the feeling there's going to have to be a lot more suffering and hardship before Americans come back to this realization.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:33 PM

101. and...?

With this country going to hell in a handbasked if Romney wins, pessimists will be wrong?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:02 AM

9. This country is still prosperous and resilient, although the quality of life is not...

 

as good as the 50-60's in relative term. But the golden age of America has passed and we live in a different world.

Nevertheless, I agree that the direction we are heading is really uncharted territory and don't know where we will end up.

Remember that once upon a time, America was also a plutocracy with unrestrained capitalism, ruled by those famous robber barons for whom the notion of conspicuous consumption was coined. The great depression and the subsequent Keynesian transformation changed all that.

After WWII, while the world was mired in destruction and laborious rebuilding, the US GDP was half of that of the entire world and the roaring engine of US economy created a true classless society, with a huge middle class that gives rise to the notion of the American Dream.

What happened to the society during 1980-2000 is probably still something that's best left to future historians with many years of hindsight. But we know that the wealth inequality has gone back to the days of robber barons and the American middle class isn't doing as well. There are many perspectives of the cause (technology, productivity, globalization, financial innovation, new capitalism trends...), but the bottom line is, we aren't doing as well as the golden age 45-70 episode, economically.

This leads to change in politics that are disturbing as we are now. This is the first $1B campaign. Why so much money??? No one invests so much money without expecting something in return. Super PAC money distorts and corrupts the election process. It competes with popular money, the contribution people like us make which is voting with our pocket book. This is the beginning of modern corruption of American democracy and that's why many of us are so disheartened.

To me, among the worst thing happened to US democracy is the politicized USSC. I no longer have respect for the Court, as they are now just another partisan political institution. Citizens United decision, to call it free speech is an example of ignoring empirical reality to justify something for political end. Sure, free will, so why can't I use drug? opium? Because we know human behavior is susceptible to such chemicals that can lead to massive social dysfunctional. If the USSC has any honest understanding how we humans are susceptible to massive information and disinformation bombardment (brainwash) that can also lead to dysfunctional society (and evidence are abound, such as the Third Reich, the Khmer rouge young kid killers), they can't make such a ruling on the ground of free speech.

Enough of rant. Let's hope for a better Court in the future, and we can never trust another appointee from a Republican administration.

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Response to JackN415 (Reply #9)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:59 AM

45. Lest we forget...

"After WWII, while the world was mired in destruction and laborious rebuilding, the US GDP was half of that of the entire world and the roaring engine of US economy created a true classless society, with a huge middle class that gives rise to the notion of the American Dream."

And let's not forget the two key factors of that success-- progressive taxation and union labor.

We've got some hard choices to make.

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Response to Doc Holliday (Reply #45)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:37 AM

65. Gilded Age

We've had the Gilded Age, and that collapsed with the Great Depression. Now we have the Corporatist Age and that will also collapse as the gap between the haves and have-nots gets bigger. Then we'll have something else.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:06 AM

11. I'm just as cynical.

The reason I am so cynical, is because i really don't see a real fight, a real push for populist policies from politicians on either side of the aisle.

I hear a lot of jibber jabbering. That's about it.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:01 AM

46. I hear a lot more populist jibber jabber come election time

 

when the top Dems need my vote. Of course, after the mandate for change is given the work of dissolving the wave of populist momentum begins with messages that bipartisanship is the new priority going forward. The policies that helped get them elected quickly become unrealistic and a large group who helped elect them become whiny and unreasonable in their expectations that they will deliver those popular policies. The damning thing is that the Dems stop advocating for real progressive reforms just when things are looking good. They stop making the case and start cutting deals behind the scenes with the 1%. They pull the plug on progressive momentum without seeing how far it can go. They punt on 3rd and 2 and hope nobody notices.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:10 AM

13. My dear, cali.

All we can do is what we here at DU do the best. Yes! We can vent here. And I heartily endorse your concerns. But, all we can do is do our best.

I love this place because no matter how fearful I am, there's always somebody who will talk me down from the ledge and point me towards a way forward.

We've taken a hit, but it is still looking good. Do not let the they're gonna steal it trolls or the polls get under your skin.

Our president can win reelection if we all work diligently to insure it.

Keep the faith, my friend. I implore you.



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Response to longship (Reply #13)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:27 AM

25. You see, faith and patience, is too late.

THEY have destroyed the planet and the 'harvesters', e.g., The Koch Bros, are encouraging and accelerating that end with only Clarence Thomas to stop them. I only take solace in that I'm 60 and not 20. If I were 20, I'd be considering a career of 'suicide bomber'.

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Response to 12AngryBorneoWildmen (Reply #25)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:48 AM

69. Shall we all run around with our hair on fire, then?

What rubbish.

Work! Vote!

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Response to longship (Reply #69)


Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:11 AM

15. Have you ever been to another country?

Or gotten out on the other side of the bed

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #15)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:39 PM

104. I have been to several. They don't spend most of their $$ on their military, and, as a consequence,

their people have access to healthcare, affordable education, and don't have to worry about starving on the street in their old age. They don't allow corporations to buy their government. They might not have as many people who have megamansions as we do, but more people live a prosperous, content life with a higher standard of living than Americans. Their babies don't die at the high rate U.S. babies do. They have a much higher rate of literacy. People aren't gunned down routinely en masse by nuts with guns. And so on.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:18 AM

17. Your father was a smart man.

"...we're now in the belly of the beast being digested."

The electoral system is rigged to keep the status quo in place & the tax policy is set to funnel wealth to the top. I don't see a way out until the empire crumbles.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:20 AM

18. Our government and lots of the establisment is ......

but if you might get out of your own way it might be possible to see that people are really okay. We just have got some lousy picks in a rigged system pushed on us.

We have a good chance at hitting the lotto soon, so try to cheer up a little

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:22 AM

21. Along similar lines of thought for me this last week, listening to the debates, was silence over

those made poor at the expense of the rich needing more...

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:28 AM

26. "I see no way out of this" - then why vote or fight?

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #26)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:36 AM

35. Because an intelligent adult can recognize a situation is hopeless and still try to fix it.

Period.

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #35)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:05 AM

51. "I see no way out of this". There is no "fixing" if there's no way out of it.

I completely disagree with the notion that there's no way out of this, but I'm talking about the OP.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #26)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:56 AM

42. why not?

what's the alternative?

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Response to ibegurpard (Reply #42)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:10 AM

56. I don't know. I'd like to know from the OP. Because I think we've been through even worse

and managed to survive. I don't think things are "hopeless" and that's why we should keep fighting.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:32 AM

28. At the risk of sounding trite...

Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Historically, there is a cycle where wealth rises to the top and income (or wealth) inequality becomes extreme. When that happens, there is a revolution. The revolution can be extremely bloody, as was the French Revolution, or it can be relatively peaceful, as was the British Revolution after WWI.

What? You don't remember a revolution in Britain in the early 20th century? Well, there was. The middle-class rose up in a series of general strikes against the fact that the peerage owned just about everything. Watch Upstairs Downstairs or Downton Abbey and watch how life changed between the wars.

We will see some sort of revolution here in the US as well if things keep going the way they are. Folks are starting to get mad, even though they really aren't sure who they are mad at. We can change things at the ballot box if we really have the will, we can go down the path of armed insurrection, we can find some middle ground like true general strikes to force the plutocrats to give us back part of their obscene wealth, or we can wither as a country and end up a third-world, balkanized place in North America.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:32 AM

29. Some people are like human tuinals

Last edited Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for reminding me of that old Lou Reed lyric

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Response to taterguy (Reply #29)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:45 AM

41. I think that's "Tuinals."

If you're referring to the old "Rainbows." I haven't thought about those in years. Thanks for the reference.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:34 AM

30. Heartfelt and true

People aren't meant to live in a place where everything is constantly up for grabs. It's exhausting. And you know that, sooner or later, the destructive people are going to get their chance to fuck it all up again. They have the money...

My best moments are when I don't think about "the country." There is civilized life on the community level, where well-intentioned people are more easily and consistently mobilized. One can still live a mostly proper life when healthy, even if the empire is a ridiculously dark and unnecessarily nasty place.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:36 AM

31. Great read but here's the thing

 

Where do you keep your money? Where do you shop? What do you buy?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:36 AM

32. I whole heartedly agree and let me tell you why

I am a small business owner. Despite my lack of lobbyist connections, I am able to take advantage of oil and gas tax subsidies as well as others related to my business. My tax bill is lower than it should be. IMO, this country has become intellectually very LAZY. As a population, weíre following the election like itís a football game rather than doing the honest intellectual work it takes to make the right choices. While folks on DU seem to know what is going on, ask yourself how many of the folks you know do not.

Many of the 99% are intellectually lazy and it is killing us as a country. This election should not even be close. Governing will always be about choosing. How we can be so lost as a country that we allow careful packaging and branding to make it possible for Romney / Ryan to:

1). Cut education funding while most kids I know (and donít know) ALREADY get out of college with tens of thousands of dollars in debt. My dentist observed most of the kids he knows have more debt getting out of undergrad than he did after finishing dental school!
2) Cut food and heating assistance to the poor.
3) Cut funding for Planned Parenthood, Big Bird and a host of other programs that collectively stitch together a warm, caring society, versus a cruel and heartless Pottersville on religious steroids.
4) Destroy Medicare / Medicaid benefits as we know them.
5) Replace Obamaís diplomacy and quiet ruthlessness against terrorists with the bluster, torture, and military adventurism of Bush / Cheney.

It is ridiculous that we cannot find a balance between the various industry subsidies and caring for our people. We canít have an honest discussion about the facts because we have become so lazy we allow our media to permit the fight to be about what the facts actually are! Much of our media is so lazy they would rather let politicians mislead the public on TV, than fight back with real facts and risk losing future interviews with the liar and their like-minded colleagues.

We should recognize by now that neither party ever cuts spending. The difference between the two parties is how they choose to spend governmentís funds. Republican obstruction has been primarily about refusing to allow government funds to be spent helping the 99% get back to work and survive during this great recession. All the tax reform and deficit talk is nothing more than a smoke screen as these are merely financing mechanisms for government spending.

The 1% are even lazier! These politicians, captains of industry wonít expend enough intellectual energy to realize if they donít get off their lazy rear ends and do something to improve this great country they inherited, eventually it wonít be there for anyone!

1) Private equity guys like Romney can't be bothered to build the next great product manufactured here in the US, thatís too much work. They simply tear down (sorry, "harvest") perfectly good companies (or just the employees) to make a quick buck.
2) Many CEO's would rather buy back shares, do a merger with ďsynergiesĒ (fire people), ship jobs overseas (cheap labor, little or no regulations), or use tax havens (hello Ireland) to keep profits high rather than risk long term capital to invest in products or technologies that could keep businesses competitive and here in the US. Politicians help out by supporting these activities in our tax code.
3) It's more expedient for the Koch Brothers and others to write a few checks to lawyers and politicians than to figure out how to make their products competitive without polluting our environment.
4) Walmart would rather send its workers to get government assistance than figure out how to compete while paying its workers a living wage.
5) New York police (and many others) don't want to do the tough job of building a relationship with its citizens, and god forbid they do actual police work! Let's just give our officers quotas so they search all the minorities!
6) OH, and let's not bother, politicians, to do the hard work of doing something about the fact that just a few in this country have most of the wealth and kids canít afford the tuition increases, you might break a sweat! AH! Don't worry! A little riot gear and roughing up of students (UC Davis et al) or the Occupy Movement will do just fine. Those folks on campus and the streets downtown will go back home!

If we want to take this country back, we have got to start framing the discussion differently. It is not the poor, the elderly, the disenfranchised that are lazy, e.g., that won't take responsibility for their lives. Their existence requires a daily struggle to push ahead. It is largely the 1%, the mega-corporations, and many of our civic leaders, those who have the wherewithal to make a huge difference, that are truly LAZY and won't take responsibility for getting this country back on track. As for the rest of us, ALL OF US (not just folks here along with a small minority of others) have got to get off our rear ends and pay attention to what is happening right under our very noses!

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #32)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:10 AM

57. Welcome to DU!

You and my boss would get along very well!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #57)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:22 AM

62. Thx Odin!

I get so damned aggravated watching the slow motion train wreck. I even forgot to mention women's issues! Those issues alone should make it a total wipe-out!

1). No control over reproductive rights.
2). Discriminated against by insurance companies.
3). Discriminated against in terms of pay in the work place.

I have three daughters. They all know these issues and not a one of them would vote against their own interests. It is astonishing to me that even a third of women would vote for these kinds of policies...wow!

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #32)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 07:33 PM

98. You framed that very well! Bravo!

and... Welcome to DU!

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:36 AM

33. Sad state of affairs.

It takes a lot to wake some people up but it's slowly happening. You didn't hear many public discussions of the inequality problem just a few years ago. I'm not sure what happens when sufficient numbers of people are finally awake if control of the government has been ceded to big business and Wall Street, and that seems likely to be the case as long as elections demand big money and continuous fundraising.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:36 AM

34. I know this will sound awful, but

sometimes I think if President Obama did not have his "race" issue to contend with because of the hatred and stubbornness of congress directed at him, the country might have been able to lean more to progressive views -given the horrible 8 years under Bush.

President Obama will always be an historical figure - the first African-American president elected in the U.S. - and it shows how far our society still has to go to see policies and not color.

Although, my biggest disappointment in Obama is the FACT that he stated in one of his books that he is a Blue Dog Democrat - a stripe of the Dem party that I dislike immensely.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:36 AM

36. Sometimes

You almost want to just throw up your hands and say "screw it" and let the crazy win. It's funny, liberal ideals haven't changed a lot but rethugs continue to say we'll ruin the country and it has never happened. Rethugs on the other hand have made a mess of things every time and this Congress has shown it is getting worse. The comments and policy positions from the current field of rethugs, Congress and president, lead us down a road we should no be going down. It is as bad as I have ever seen it. If the current field retain control of the House and Rmoney wins than we can only expect things to become worse. I hate to even poteficate on what that road leads too. GOTV is critical for both president and down ticket. There is a difference. It matters. The 47% matter. You matter. Vote.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:36 AM

37. I completely agree.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:41 AM

38. Excellent post. I share(d) the same optimism, but I'm definitely becoming a cultured pessimist.

In an env policy class we learned about the pendulum shifts in policy/politics. Every time I think the pendulum is finally going to swing left of Reagan, it goes either to the center or further right. Perhaps the US has a black hole that is consuming all of my optimism. It's getting pretty ugly both aesthetically and culturally.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:42 AM

39. These are the times ...

THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER" and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/crisis/c-01.htm

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:43 AM

40. It's the uninformed, un-engaged voter that is the ruin of this country

It's the Lindsay Lohans saying Mitt Romney would be good at creating jobs because he's a businessman.

You can't compete with raging stupidity.

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Response to Auggie (Reply #40)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:58 AM

44. "You can't compete with raging stupidity."

Sadly, one can't.

Even worse than abject stupidity are those that are willfully ignorant.

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #44)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:05 AM

52. +1,000,000

Willfully ignorant is spot-on.

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Response to Auggie (Reply #40)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:19 PM

75. You're saying voters are responsible for this?

No, it's the corporate lapdog politicians who are to blame

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #75)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 01:44 PM

85. Yes. Who elects the corporate lapdog politicians?

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Response to Auggie (Reply #85)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 03:08 PM

91. It's refreshing non-voters aren't being blamed

That's why I was asking for clarification

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Response to Auggie (Reply #40)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 04:11 PM

92. They're not uninformed, they're misinformed

we will get the country back when we take the media back from the far right. We can either do this simple but messy step, or just learn to live under fascism. I am hopeful that before I become worm food, some number of us will realize what has to be done , and kick off the revolution.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 10:58 AM

43. The masses have been fully propagandized and stupified with bread and circuses.

Or make that fast food and "reality" TV.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:02 AM

47. So very transparent.

.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:05 AM

53. We are also a very vindictive people.

How often do you hear the person with $10 begrudge the person with $1 a free glass of water? How these fucking idiots that work for a living support this multimillionaire, cutthroat venture capitalist to be in charge of their economy is mind boggling.
I can only say that America will get what it deserves on Nov. 6.
I can only HOPE that we deserve a president that actually gives somewhat of a fuck about the rest of us.... and it AIN'T Romney!

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:06 AM

54. I totally agree! It is all so depressing...

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:11 AM

58. George McGovern's innate decency vs. today's hate.

The raw, unfiltered hate from the right is the strongest in my lifetime, except for the pushback to the Freedom Riders in the early '60s. Extraordinary.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:12 AM

59. Agree. I had a boss many years ago that said...

 

the middle class is going to get squeezed out and there will be only the rich and the poor left.

I laughed at him, in my comfortable little position where nothing could possibly go wrong...

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:13 AM

60. NYT, Sat. 10/20/12

 

Obama's second-in-command political adviser is also a top corporate lobbyist (i.e., corporate pig).

While Obama is better than Romney, don't think things are gonna get any better.

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Response to jerseyjack (Reply #60)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:44 AM

68. The magician will pull the lever with his left hand while......

his right hand comes around for slap with the other. There has been a lot of things getting better (and worse) but just to remember that reality is a lot bigger than our brains or any newspaper could ever tell us about. Things sometimes come from places we never thought of. So all of us are needed to watch out for them and it's done better with group effort.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:32 AM

64. How true, and how can so many people be answering polls saying they would vote for Romney?

The man is disgusting.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:37 AM

66. At least there's no shortage of hand-wringing angst

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:44 AM

67. Thank you for this post. . .one thing that continues to bother me

. . .is how easily so many people are duped into believing a "CEO" is the best choice for President - particularly when his ever-changing positions results in him having NO real policies and makes me believe he is going to be nothing more than a puppet on corporate strings. Why people think that embracing fascism is such a glorious choice for this country astounds me - along with their lingering ideas that government by the people and for the people is somehow inherently evil and that our only hope for a future is government by the rich and powerful.

We've been sinking into this hole for a long time, and I agree that there are few ways to get out. So many people are stuck in some wacko GOP-inspired mindset that all you have to do is work hard and you'll be automatically rich - and we ALL know that is a myth. I had this discussion with a diehard conservative just a week or so ago, and when I asked him how over 300 million Americans could be rich, he gave me the tired GOP line that "they can't - mostly because so many of them are lazy."

Except this time I pointed out that, when I was growing up, the advice I was always given by Republican relatives about planning for the future entailed creating a goal in which I DIDN'T work or produce anything, but instead lived off the labor of others. It was called "investment." Yes. . .for all their talk about "hard work," their entire idea of becoming well-off centers around making money work for you, or, in my mind, making others work for you so you don't have to work. Isn't that, in a sense, the ultimate welfare system of taking the labor of others and reaping all the benefits for yourself?

He just stared at me in surprise. He offered the notion that "yes, but they EARNED that money that works for them." And when I asked what they produced to continue to earn that money, he didn't have anything to say.

Now I'm not against investment or being well-off or anything like that, but I am against those who pretend they did it all themselves and have no dependency on others. But I am sick and tired of listening to right wingers telling me we have to give up social security and medicare to pay for wars they refused to pay for over the last decade. One fast way to shut them up is to quickly ask them why I should vote for a political party which deliberately CUT TAXES at the same time as escalating TWO WARS overseas and how "patriotic" is that idea? I never get an answer to that question.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 11:49 AM

70. The new normal in America.

It sucks.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:27 PM

77. I know exactly why this started 40 years ago

It was the advent of the computer. Statisticians and marketers could analyze amounts of data that was incomprehensible just years before. The powers that be could look at real data and craft messages that actually led people to vote against their own interests. The marketing power (enabled by database marketing) of large companies, think tanks, and big media is incomprehensibly immense and there is little chance for the ordinary person to not be swept up.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:28 PM

78. So well said and

so true.

40 years ago, we were considerably younger and with that youth, held out hope for the future. But Eisenhower had warned us all and Reagan -- the amiable dunce and deceptor -- started the last chapter.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 12:46 PM

82. It's as if we have become the future nightmare movies

Roller Ball,Running man , idiocracy, Americathon.

The tea party are the guys from Deliverance
The fox bot right wingers are the people from Invasion of the body snatchers
Mitt Romney is the presidential candidate from the Dead Zone
And the koch's want to turn us workers into those in Metropolis

And right now we are in the beginnings of Soylent green if the repugs get rid of social security and medicare.

True scary times that make me lose sleep at night.

Until we get rid of citizens united and fix our voting system so everyone can participate and a true independent free press we are doomed to a gloomy future

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 01:48 PM

88. this might help



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Response to cali (Original post)


Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 05:03 PM

93. I saw it coming when Reagan became president

that bastard made greed and idiocy fashionable and started America on her downward spiral

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 07:02 PM

94. We will consume ourselves

I have been thinking this for some time now.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 07:04 PM

95. ha no kidding. I've worked at two companies that went

corporate and both places the old timers said everything went down hill once they brought in the accountants and lawyers.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 07:19 PM

96. Here's an article making the very

 

sound argument, mittnocchio is mentally ill, yet white men are more likely to vote for him than PBO. Why would white men prefer a mental disturbed individual in the White House that will take away their healthcare, their ability to family pla, their right to vote, their jobs, and I could do on and on.
http://www.politicususa.com/mitt-romney-mentally-ill.html

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 07:24 PM

97. We have to change the House and Senate...

..the President can do little without them. But we need to clean House with all those that vote for corporations over people, Democrats and Republicans alike.

Only when we can pass the laws needed thru Congress and the Senate will we ever be able to make any progress. We have to get rid of the corporate stooges masquerading as representatives of the people.

We need to put the fear of God into them, by working together to change our government. Many Americans vote the way they do because they don't really know better. They vote against their own interest, which is the clearest indicator one can have for outright ignorance. We need to educate people about who is really on their side. That's the bottom line. All the other ideological crap is just that.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #97)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 07:43 PM

99. Our neighbors in Latin America have successfully done this.

They have wrested their governments from the hands of the Oligarchs and Corporations.
The Populist reforms that have swept across Latin America give me hope.
"The worst enemy of humanity is U.S. capitalism. That is what provokes uprisings like our own, a rebellion against a system, against a neoliberal model, which is the representation of a savage capitalism. If the entire world doesn't acknowledge this reality, that nation states are not providing even minimally for health, education and nourishment, then each day the most fundamental human rights are being violated."
----Bolivian Reform President Evo Morales

Psst. FDR said the same thing in his Economic Bill or Rights in 1944.
Unfortunately, FDR and THAT "Democratic Party" are long dead,
killed by the DLC Chamber of Commerce triangulating Centrists.



When the Working Class & The Poor realize WE have MORE in common with each other
than we have in common with the Ruling Elite (1%) and their employees running our government,
THEN we can have change too.
Latin America has given us the Blue Print.
They have one advantage that we don't.
They have transparent, verifiable elections.




We have some work to do.
Spread the word.
VIVA Democracy!
WE outnumber THEM.


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:36 PM

102. We know what the Republicans are doing to this country. Any real opposition party could have

stopped them. It still could. Face it, we don't have a real opposition party.

The only way to get that is for the people to choose the candidates which at this point we do not, and work hard to get real Democrats who will FIGHT these horrific policies and prosecute War Criminals and Economic Criminals without the BS that if 'we do that we will look too partisan'. Crime is crime, and for far too long the Dem Party leadership has been willing to look the other way, starting when Clinton pardoned all those Right Wing criminals. Maybe it started before that, in fact it did, when Nixon's gang, which included Cheney and Rumsfeld and others who resurfaced to continue their criminal activities. We should not be surprised when criminals are not only taken off the hook, but allowed back into positions of power, that they will be even more brazen.

It is the refusal to apply the rule of law for decades now, that got us into the mess we are now in.

And it's the people's fault as much as anyone else's. What do we hear each time someone suggests NOT voting for people who are willing to go along with the policies that allow criminals to go free?

The people have to step up because no one else, as we have seen, is going to change anything.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:41 PM

105. Tell it to the indigenous 'americans' ...

if you can find one.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:44 PM

106. Sidenote: A large part of our problem has been religion.

Most religions make people ignorant and accepting of magical thinking. They will swallow anything that is "easy," and that includes rightwing politics that tell them their problems are someone else's fault (blacks, women, gays, you name it). They believe the brainless "go-USA, go-Gawd, go Republican" rah rah crap because their brains have atrophied. They have no way to filter the media propaganda.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:50 AM

107. a nation of cheaters doesn't have the same ring as American Exceptionalism.

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