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eridani

(51,907 posts)
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:15 AM Sep 2012

Why there are conspiracy theories at all

I certainly don't think that the 9-11 truth movement has a lock on the actual truth. I also don't agree with the official "conspiracy nut" stance, which is to deride anyone who suspects that our government hasn’t told us the truth about what they know. To criticize “conspiracy theorists” is to blame the victim instead of taking on the perpetrators. There is a reason why people come up with conspiracy theories—they happen to be a normal and healthy response to the experience of being forbidden access to relevant information and being constantly lied to by the people who do.

The radical therapist Claude Steiner once said that paranoia is actually a heightened state of awareness, in which the paranoid put together narratives that make sense of the only information they have available. He gave an example of a woman he treated who believed that her husband was engaged in several elaborate plots on her life. What Steiner did was to interview the husband, who was disturbed by his wife's narrative. The husband was in fact thinking of having her permanently committed to the funny farm, but he always responded to his wife's questions about what was wrong between them by saying “Nothing, honey.”

That was the crux of the problem. The wife was in a heightened state of awareness and knew only that “Nothing, honey” was a pile of steaming bullshit. Not having access to real information about what was going on in her husband's head, she invented it out of whole cloth. Steiner's ultimately successful therapy was simply to convince the husband to stop lying and withholding information. In this case, the husband did not exactly lead the examined life, and was unaware of the harm that social “white lies” can sometimes cause. Being genuinely concerned about his wife, he agreed to try to be more introspective and commit to being honest about his feelings. The wife agreed to acknowledge this effort, and to be more persistent about asking for information instead of automatically assuming the worst. Of course our superiors who run our imperial government have no such commitment to making it all better for the rest of us—see the classic Ingrid Berman/Charles Boyer movie Gaslight for a psychological take on their game.

The bottom line here is that it is a basic requirement of sanity to be able to make sense of one's information environment, to be able to put it into a coherent and meaningful picture, and if those people who know what is going on behind closed doors constantly lie to the public and withhold information, the inevitable result is that some people will naturally want to fill in the blanks by any means possible. This process is analogous to the effects of sensory deprivation—float in one of those tanks long enough to deprive your brain of all sensory input, and it will quickly start inventing some.

Current official explanations of 9-11 are like a picture puzzle with half the pieces missing. Many people have been taking magic markers and extrapolating from what is visible to fill in the missing spaces in an attempt to put together the entire picture. They are constantly ridiculed for this, and opinion makers who wish to be taken seriously always bog the discussion down in disputes about whether or not the colored-in parts really look like the original pieces. Some will be closer approximations than others, of course; many may well be wildly off. But the really important issue (which remains for the most part unaddressed) is “What in bleeding hell gives our government the right to hide the pieces in the first place?”

Attacking people who are trying to make sense of their information environments with limited data is highly unethical, no matter how nutty their theories may sometimes sound. It's exactly like putting a rape victim on trial for her previous sexual history instead of going after the rapist. Theories may fall anywhere on a continuum from plausible to seriously off-base, just as women's prior sexual histories may vary from none to very experienced. By any objective analysis, some unofficial theories of what happened on 9/11 are prim virgins in high-collared white lace blouses, and some are prancing around in tight red spandex streetwalker outfits. But either way, it just plain should not matter—critics should focus on calling the rapists, liars and secret-keepers to account rather than slandering their victims.

“Conspiracy theorists” are commonly dismissed as irrational or unscientific. It's true that scientific training helps people to cope with not having certain and final answers, and that only a minority of the population has such training. However, one important part of scientific training is learning to avoid speculating beyond the data, but this requirement of the scientific process depends critically on the assumption (which is almost always valid) that scientists will present all relevant data and methodology to their research community as accurately and as completely as they can. Since this condition is not currently met by our government (and most certainly not by the 9/11 Commission), it is outrageous to attack as “unscientific” people who express concern about a government that insists on keeping secrets from them, especially when those secrets threaten the foundation of our democracy. The attacks should be directed instead toward those who are keeping what should be publicly available information from them.

How long will the official arbiters of “reality” continue to defend the rapists, the liars, the secret-keepers who conceal information that in a real democracy ought to be made available to the public? If we could spend $40 million investigating a blow job, surely we could spend more than $15 million on finding out what really happened on the day of the worst attack on our soil. I hope that more people will join with those who are demanding honesty and transparency in the public sphere. The urge to be accepted as a real member of the elite class of reality creators, those who claim the right to lie and withhold information on the grounds that they alone are entitled to decide what the public should know, can be very tempting. Any person who gives in to this temptation badly fails our democratic republic. What is tyranny but a system in which rulers assert the right to know everything about their subjects while keeping their own operations strictly undercover?

Dr. Bob Bowman, an actual rocket scientist, once said that the real truth about 9/11 is that we don’t know the truth about 9/11. When he speculates, he always labels his speculations as such—something that some of our more imaginative theoreticians should also consider doing.


32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why there are conspiracy theories at all (Original Post) eridani Sep 2012 OP
K&R JDPriestly Sep 2012 #1
Emphatic K&R! Explains why I consider myself 'agnostic' on the 9-11 attacks. - n/t coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #2
Thank you for encapsulating my whole set of feelings about conspiracy theory in general, and 9/11 Nay Sep 2012 #3
All we know for certain is that we're being lied to and that the lie is being used... Junkdrawer Sep 2012 #4
Um...'rapists'? I guess that's used in a metaphorical sense. randome Sep 2012 #5
Rapists are to rape victims as eridani Sep 2012 #22
Really excellent analysis... ljm2002 Sep 2012 #6
TL, DR. There is ONLY ONE CONSPIRACY! slackmaster Sep 2012 #7
They don't have to hide anything; it's just too overwhelming an amount of information treestar Sep 2012 #8
The problem is the paranoid see conspiracies everywhere. MicaelS Sep 2012 #9
IOW, some have a far higher need than others for perfect consistency-- eridani Sep 2012 #20
Same reason we have religions. Humans want to understand why things happen even without knowledge. pampango Sep 2012 #10
No, that's why we have government pronouncements. JackRiddler Sep 2012 #13
What if the government provides "knowledge" but it conflicts with our religion or ct? pampango Sep 2012 #21
What if the government lies as a routine policy? JackRiddler Sep 2012 #25
K&R nt raouldukelives Sep 2012 #11
But many of the 9/11 CTs do not involve hidden knowledge. hack89 Sep 2012 #12
Make sure to inject your good friend, controlled demolition, JackRiddler Sep 2012 #15
But MIHOP is the face of 911 Truth hack89 Sep 2012 #16
I don't know that I would call it "LIHOP" - TBF Sep 2012 #14
My take is a weak version of LIHOP eridani Sep 2012 #19
Thank you so much for this, K&R. EOTE Sep 2012 #17
Recommended me b zola Sep 2012 #18
KR. When the "party line" doesn't make sense, doesn't explain events satisfactorily, people start HiPointDem Sep 2012 #23
And don't forget the rather large number of successful known conspiracies. n/t Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #24
Forward graham4anything Sep 2012 #26
There is something we can do - TBF Sep 2012 #27
It's a mundane fact that governments often don't tell the truth, especially when things go wrong cpwm17 Sep 2012 #28
Excellent post! zappaman Sep 2012 #30
What interferes with the search for truth is being lied to eridani Sep 2012 #32
How about this one? eridani Sep 2012 #29
Good one! zappaman Sep 2012 #31

Nay

(12,051 posts)
3. Thank you for encapsulating my whole set of feelings about conspiracy theory in general, and 9/11
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:51 AM
Sep 2012

in particular. There's a lot more to know, and people realize that.

Also, past conspiracies have indeed been revealed (the Zimmerman letter in WWII, the Gulf of Tonkin incident in Vietnam, Reagan's involvement in the hostage crisis), making most Americans quite aware that they have already been lied to, so what's to prevent the govt/corporations from lying to them again?

It's NOT crazy to suspect that many actions/wars/incidents are manipulated or manufactured for the monetary or political gain of this or that powerful group. Or a coalition of groups.

Edited: can't spell this morning, for some reason

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
4. All we know for certain is that we're being lied to and that the lie is being used...
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:58 AM
Sep 2012

to justify a continued, disastrous "War on Terror".

As the years tick away, the chances of EVER knowing the Truth fades away.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
5. Um...'rapists'? I guess that's used in a metaphorical sense.
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:03 PM
Sep 2012

And our government does not 'constantly lie'. That's blatant hyperbole.

Our government DOES lie but over-the-top generalizations don't do the article justice.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
22. Rapists are to rape victims as
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 02:36 AM
Sep 2012

Liars and secret-keepers are to people who are driven nuts by the resulting lack of accurate information.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
7. TL, DR. There is ONLY ONE CONSPIRACY!
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:10 PM
Sep 2012

It's so vast and so pervasive that its vast army of toadies and dupes have no idea that they are part of it.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
8. They don't have to hide anything; it's just too overwhelming an amount of information
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:18 PM
Sep 2012

The government keeps tons of records.

And if Bush and Cheney really planned for 911, they'd hardly have made records of it.

It's also possible that Al Qaeda really planned this and Bush just used it as his new Pearl Harbor. We know the PNAC wanted that which makes them evil, but it doesn't mean they planned it necessarily.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
9. The problem is the paranoid see conspiracies everywhere.
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:23 PM
Sep 2012

Even where there are not any. It comes back to the old question "How do prove a negative?" How do you prove to the paranoid that "President Obama is not an XYZ?"

Richard Hofstadter said it best in his essay The Paranoid Style in American Politics

eridani

(51,907 posts)
20. IOW, some have a far higher need than others for perfect consistency--
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 04:57 PM
Sep 2012

--in their information environments. Psychologists who used the Rorschach inkblot test called that having a high W score. That is, high W refers to those subjects who got really upset if they couldn't fit every single aspect of the inkblot into the picture they imagined.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
10. Same reason we have religions. Humans want to understand why things happen even without knowledge.
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:32 PM
Sep 2012

Religions evolved long ago when people did not understand much about how and why things happened in the natural world. Science simply had not developed explanations of many things from the weather to sickness to crop failures to volcanoes. Believing that an Almighty (or a group of Almighties) was responsible for events was more comforting than thinking that life was just a series of random events that could never be understood or predicted.

Some conspiracy theories end up being based in fact just like some religious beliefs end up being based on (or perhaps just coincidentally agreeing with) actual science. Most religious beliefs, however, have not turned out to be based on facts but precisely on belief. Most (though certainly not all) conspiracy theories have historically suffered the same fate.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
13. No, that's why we have government pronouncements.
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:55 PM
Sep 2012

Using your argument: For the same reason there are religions. Humans want to be told stories about things in the absence of knowledge. Instead of providing the knowledge, the government issues a reassuring statement.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
21. What if the government provides "knowledge" but it conflicts with our religion or ct?
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 05:03 PM
Sep 2012

Humans want to understand why things happen. If that knowledge does not exist (as in ancient times) they are susceptible to stories being made up to explain things. It does not mean they prefer stories to knowledge.

Even in modern times, many people will disregard "knowledge" (evolution, geological history, etc.) that conflicts with their religion. Anything that one believes in fervently (religion being the best example, but conspiracy theories might register, too) makes one resistant to any new "knowledge" that conflicts with their belief.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
25. What if the government lies as a routine policy?
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 03:39 AM
Sep 2012

And what were the first priesthoods, if not also archaic governments?

Here, let me fix this for you:

"Even in modern times, many people will disregard "knowledge" (evolution, geological history, etc.) that conflicts with their religion. Anything that one believes in fervently (religion being the best example, but the mythic pronouncements of governments and other authorities in one's culture and society might register, too) makes one resistant to any new "knowledge" that conflicts with their belief."

Tell me that blind belief in what a flag-waving political leadership says in a time of "war" (a war that is perpetual and somehow both everywhere and nowhere) is not more common in the US than the "conspiracy theorists" who (in your own comforting belief) comprise a very special, exceptional form of faith-motivated actors (to whom you can feel a false sense of superiority).

.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
12. But many of the 9/11 CTs do not involve hidden knowledge.
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:51 PM
Sep 2012

here I am talking about such things as: controlled demolition, no-planes/holographs, thermite, mini-nukes.

To believe many of them is to ignore universal and accepted engineering and scientific principles Or they require one to ignore hundreds of eyewitness accounts. Or they exhibit a gross ignorance of how the government and military actually work.

This is knowledge that the government does not have a monopoly on.

Go look at the DU2 9/11 forum - it is all there.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
15. Make sure to inject your good friend, controlled demolition,
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:00 PM
Sep 2012

and your other favorite tropes for avoiding the issues that the OP talks about. Where would you be if you had to actually deal with the lies and contradictions of the Commission and the government, instead of picking out "CTs" to mock?

TBF

(32,056 posts)
14. I don't know that I would call it "LIHOP" -
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 12:55 PM
Sep 2012

although maybe my thoughts would sort of fit in that area. I tend to think it wasn't something that was definitely known and ignored (or should have been known) - but that it is sort of a natural result of Imperialism. If you look at how this country and the corporations it protects (our "political and economic interests" to use CNN's term) operate in the world than it is not a jump to realize other countries may not take kindly to our actions. They might well retaliate in some form. When these actions of retaliation occur of course our military is going to come down hard - that is why we have a huge military - so we can squash dissent.

I don't think we were told the whole story on 9/11, just as I don't think we are normally told the whole story about how our country operates in areas where we have "interests" (ie someone has resources we want).


eridani

(51,907 posts)
19. My take is a weak version of LIHOP
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 04:46 PM
Sep 2012

I think that they knew something was going to happen, but didn't have knowledge of operational details, nor did they try very hard to get that information. You could say the same about Pearl Harbor. Certainly our defense establishment knew that Japan was going to do something or another about being cut of from most of its oil supply.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030908-480226,00.html

Without charging any skullduggery (Posner told TIME they "may in fact be coincidences&quot , the author notes that these deaths occurred after CIA officials passed along Zubaydah's accusations to Riyadh and Islamabad. Washington, reports Posner, was shocked when Zubaydah claimed that “9/11 changed nothing” about the clandestine marriage of terrorism and Saudi and Pakistani interests, “because both Prince Ahmed and Mir knew that an attack was scheduled for American soil on that day.” They couldn't stop it or warn the U.S. in advance, Zubaydah said, because they didn't know what or where the attack would be. And they couldn't turn on bin Laden afterward because he could expose their prior knowledge. Both capitals swiftly assured Washington that “they had thoroughly investigated the claims and they were false and malicious.” The Bush Administration, writes Posner, decided that “creating an international incident and straining relations with those regional allies when they were critical to the war in Afghanistan and the buildup for possible war with Iraq, was out of the question.”


BTW, Posner made his bones as an author debunking Kennedy assassination theories.

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
17. Thank you so much for this, K&R.
Wed Sep 12, 2012, 01:08 PM
Sep 2012

I'm sick to death of "conspiracy theorist" being used in a pejorative sense, especially considering that myriad conspiracies take place every god-damned day. Of course, once conspiracy theories are exposed, they're either quickly forgotten or it's assumed the information was available from day one. Even more sickening, in a country where something like 70+% of the population doesn't believe that Oswald killed Kennedy or that he killed him alone, typically "grassy knoll" is appended to the insult of "conspiracy theorist". People who denigrate conspiracy theorists are trying to shut down debate and nothing more. Frankly, it's despicable.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
23. KR. When the "party line" doesn't make sense, doesn't explain events satisfactorily, people start
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 02:42 AM
Sep 2012

generating alternative theories.

and lots of times, they're right -- or at least closer to the truth than the party line.

Mocking people and labeling them 'conspiracy theorists' is BULLYING. It's a nasty weapon of power.





 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
26. Forward
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 05:19 AM
Sep 2012

grant me the ability to change things I can
grant me the ability to accept things I cannot change
and grant me the ability to know the difference

for a few years on a different now defunct board, I was enraptured by a few people and caught up in ct's

ct's get to be like a cult
you soon see what you want to see, and it's all so clear while under the spell

only near the end of that board, when several posters got desperate did I learn that those people were never on my side to start off with, and never on the side of moving forward

It took a black president to be elected to learn that I was being led by those who on actually seemed to be on the side of those who believed the whole birther industry and were backing it seemed the draconian laws in Arizona.

but it dawned on me that for all their talk about gov't this or that, why, it was quite likely those true believers might themselves have been gov't operatives and well, without getting an innervention, I got out of the ct business.

It's not like we can do anything about any of this.

Go back to the JFK thingydingy and there is now one and only person left who was on the commission and the namer of the single bullet theory himself.
Will he leave papers to be released sometime after he passes on however long in the future that is?
Could set things straight.


But I also learned the laws of unintended consequences and that those who might be in on a fix, learned those lessons too.
Therefore, those back in JFK's time who MIGHT have done it, did not realize what the great LBJ would bring in-
and that to them was worse than anything JFK might have done (which means LBJ signed the voting rights/civil rights acts), and used ALL his capital he had to get it through and only had that chance due to those that might have been involved in the JFK thingy.

Watergate
The day they revealed that old senile guy was deep throat made me puke.
And then I started thinking deeply about this conspiracy that was indeed a conspiracy
but took it one step forward (or more)

and it dawned on me, why was EVERYTHING Woodward and Bernstein, except for ONE and only one thing. Which was deep throat. Why wasn't CB involved with Deep Throat?
While the other is now a corporate hack who for some reasons still writes on book after another and has #1 book after #1 book. (just wondering, now ct there).

What if the breadcrumbs Deep Throat laid down perfectly, ended up leading to the downfall and ouster of Richard Nixon.
What if the goal of those that were involved, was to bring Nixon down in the first place?
It worked.
Nixon was a delusional ill person who happened to be the last actual somewhat liberal regular republican (which I know most people won't even consider that).

What if the people that followed knew they had to get rid of Nixon to attain power, even knowing that an unknown democrat would take office but they had plans to make sure he only had one term

What if like Cheney was to W, 41 was to Reagan, the real power behind the puppet?

It all happeend because of Nixon being taken out, by something so minute, it hardly mattered in the scheme of things, as Nixon was a shoo-in for reelection anyhow.

(anyone with half a brain, no matter how much love for McGovern there was, knew McGovern did not stand a chance,especially after Eagleton.

Conspiracy theorists have a million and one reasons Bush43 was seated.
A winner(or selected one) does things a loser doesn't do.
One side can't be a gentleman while the other is a thug.
But then those that believed in Ralph Nader, perhaps the biggest conspiracy of all was Ralph Nader, solely led to 43 being seated because without Nader, Florida would not have mattered, and that Nader ego led to Kerry losing, because without Nader, Gore would have been president in 2004 and Kerry would not have won.
And the evil Ron Paul's and 3rd parties who used that Dems/REpubs the same bullshit line
when in fact, that is an utter lie to keep the powers that be in office.

However, law of unintended consequences led directly to President Obama being elected to get the big stink out, and will be relected in 2012, and all of us willing, Hillary will defeat Jeb Bush, and the mighty empire of the Bush family will be done with politically. 3 strikes and they will be out.

So again, instead of getting sidetracked in what happened, think of the better, moving forward and making sure while we might not immediate gain revenge for something awful,
we know in our hearts that having moved forward, we got better than we would have, had say President Obama expended all his efforts to prosecuting (THOUGH HE HAS NO POWER WHATSOEVER TO DO SO ANYHOW) a prior administration.

again
know what you can change and attain those changes
know what you can't change and don't waste the energy, time and capital in something that cannot be done
and accept the difference, and MOVE-ON but move-on by going FORWARD.

Remember folks, we are only here for so many years of life, and we gotta pass something better to future generations. The single thing we can do to insure that is not to delve in some this happened/ that happened(and get bogged down in minutia that some plant will obscure), but by insuring we never elect those people, or vote out of office, or vote so many others in that those turncoats have zero power.

My mind woke up after all the conspiracy thoughts about Bush43 remaining in office, when on inauguration day 2009, that helicopter transported Bush out of the White House office he was selected for, and back out.

Biggest thing to accept is, President Obama took office, will win his 2nd term, Democrats will follow, the Supreme Court will return to the better days back before that bloomin' idiot replaced the legendary Thurgood Marshall, the demographic change will get rid of that one pesky angry white male demographic, texas will become Blue again, and we shall have the biggest boon since the post war age now 60-70 years ago already.

Just my opinion, know it's not a popular one (and I know wedge issues stop people right off from considering LBJ as a great person), and you all have the right to your opinions

and the people that were not who I thought they were (liberal democrats), I have to thank for removing the blinders from my eyes.All those people were were Ron Paul and Republican fans, and Clinton haters tearing Bill and Hill down. Took me a few years til I realized that.

Law of unintended consequences again applies- Bill Clinton is now more popular than he was at any time when President. And Hillary is more popular by far than any other too, male or female. Glad she and he are on our side.(and TEAM players).
F--k the ones who led me to think otherwise earlier on.
My satisfaction is knowing Obama was #44, and saying ha ha ha when Hillary enters in 2017 as #45. That to me is better than wasting time about 9-11 and never prooving it, because all it takes in any c.t. conversation is one minutia fact to be wrong, and the entire thread gets stopped by people saying, oh well, guess it wasn't true.

and rest in peace, Mr.Jim, a poster from another board who was very scientific in his thoughts, along with common sense, and smart enough, mostly kept it about JFK. Been a couple of years now since he passed away, way too young. Still thinking of you Mr. Jim, and still thinking of your great sense of humor, always brought a smile to me now matter the groaners!
It's too bad posters like Mr. Jim were anonymous, because I am sure his family and kids he left behind would love to know there are people who cared and still think about him so kindly.
(do family members even know ones boards they write on, and ones words they wrote?)

TBF

(32,056 posts)
27. There is something we can do -
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 10:42 AM
Sep 2012

When I say I don't believe the official story it doesn't mean I go looking for videos of controlled demolitions and so on ... it just means I don't agree that what they've shared is everything that is going on. There may be truth to some of the details, there may not.

Frankly from my perspective capitalism causes enough difficulties on a daily basis that we don't need to look for conspiracy - it is right out there in front of us.

As to what we can do, point out the inequities of capitalism and work towards a fair (or fairer) economic system.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
28. It's a mundane fact that governments often don't tell the truth, especially when things go wrong
Thu Sep 13, 2012, 11:49 AM
Sep 2012

And there are also some truly slimy characters in government with their own selfish agendas. That is no evidence whatsoever for the ridiculous conspiracy theories put forth by those with their own selfish agendas to be gobbled up by the gullible.

However, one important part of scientific training is learning to avoid speculating beyond the data, but this requirement of the scientific process depends critically on the assumption (which is almost always valid) that scientists will present all relevant data and methodology to their research community as accurately and as completely as they can.


Not only do conspiracy theorists go way beyond the data they also contradict obvious fact. Conspiracy theorists cannot separate the possible from the impossible. Conspiracy theorists don't understand basic human psychology.

The reasons the Bush Administration ignored the warnings are opened to speculation. But conspiracy theorists go way beyond that. They create impossible Rube Goldberg scenarios that defy common sense. They interfere with the search for truth.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
32. What interferes with the search for truth is being lied to
Fri Sep 14, 2012, 07:05 AM
Sep 2012

That this drives some people nuts is a secondary issue.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
29. How about this one?
Fri Sep 14, 2012, 03:26 AM
Sep 2012

I know some in the 9/11 truth crowd who think that government disinformation hacks are promoting some of the more outlandish MIHOP theories specifically to discredit some of the more plausible LIHOP theories.

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