The Ayn Rand attack on Ryan is pointless

[cali]

as far as influencing votes goes. People vote the top of the ticket. The enthusiasm on the right for Ryan may bring in a few more votes but in the end it's Obama vs Romney.

The evangelicals won't care that he loves Rand. They're thrilled about his positions on social issues.

People aren't really going to care that he loves a particular author. It's a big shrug to most.

It's fun to tie Ryan to Rand. I like doing it myself, but I don't see any political hay to be made from it.

[atreides1]

1. His position on social issues?

All the evangelicals care about is his position on abortion, because in reality they could give a tinker's damn about the poor, the elderly, and the weak!

[ProSense]

2. Completely disagree.

Even Ryan knows it's a liability.

Paul Ryan LOVES Ayn Rand. And LIED About It.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/11/1118874/-Paul-Ryan-LOVES-Ayn-Rand-And-LIED-About-It

Romney-Ryan, the death squad ticket? (brutal piece about Romney)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021127340

[cyclezealot]

30. Depends upon how Rand is framed..

It's been said, Ryan can quote much of Ayn Rand.. ( yes, Rand is much to erudite to spend much time upon. ) But , think Paul Ryan will quote this quote in a letter from Ludwig von Mises to Ayn Rand.. In the New Yorker, Page three , "The Legendary Paul Ryan " by Jonathan Chait
.
.In 2005, Ryan spoke at a gathering of Ayn Rand enthusiasts, where he declared, “The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand.” Ryan has listed Rand’s manifesto, Atlas Shrugged, as one of his three most often reread books, and in 2003, he told The Weekly Standard he tries to make his interns read it. Rand is a useful touchstone to understand Ryan’s public philosophy. She centered libertarian philosophy around a defense of capitalism in general and, in particular, a conception of politics as a class war pitting virtuous producers against parasites who illegitimately use the power of the state to seize their wealth. Ludwig von Mises, whom Ryan has also cited as an influence, once summed up Rand’s philosophy in a letter to her: “You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: You are inferior and all the improvements in your condition which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you.”
snip


http://nymag.com/news/features/paul-ryan-2012-5/index2.html

[Springslips]

48. About the highlighted quote

Ryan went to school because of Social Security, and FDR created Social Security, so in the logic of the quote . . . Hmmmmm

[DearAbby]

33. I tend to agree

Paul Ryan did take time to denounce the author. He felt it important enough to walk it back.

[Kalidurga]

3. The only attack necessary is the one on his budget plan...

Everything else is just bonus material. Still I would like to see an ad about Ryan's insider trading. Perhaps some people would call it something else. But, even if they do it is obvious Ryan was attempting to use his position in congress to his advantage.

[progressivebydesign]

6. his budget ideas come from his Ayn Rand fanboy status. they're interlinked. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

4. Totally disagree. Ayn Rand was crucial to his formative years, and now.

And it does have a direct impact on his policies and beliefs.

[Ikonoklast]

5. Don't think so.

Evangelicals definitely care that Ryan is a follower of a well-known Atheist.

They also care that there isn't a Protestant on their ticket, there are even murmurings from them that there are no 'Real Christians' on that ballot to vote for.

[nanabugg]

41. Yeah,who is really waging the war on Christianity???

Evangelicals do care and Baptists are very suspicious of anyone coming close to an atheist. It all depends on how the two are linked and Ryan has made enough statements on the record about his admiration of Rand and her philosophy. So don't try to talk the Dems out of using this crucial albatross. It's a real and deep angst for a lot of evangelical Christians. No one can force you have an abortion and no one asking you marry your own gender but we will all have to live with the policies of our government. So who would you like to see running our government? It's a simple as that.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. And yet I voted against the bottom of the ticket last time. Palin swung me away from

my own party and toward Obama.

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. I disagree ...

It's not that ryan "likes" rand, he has stated that her writings formed the foundation of his political philosophy. To ignore that would be like ignoring a candidate's basing his political philosophy on mein kempf or mao's Little Red Book.

The political mileage to be gained is that romney picked ryan to mouth-piece a gop philosophy that would in effect, bring into existence rand's thoughts.

"And we have proof ... Here look at the ryan budget!"

True, it won't sway the true believers and anti(President) Obamaers; but it will dissuade the sane middle.

[Enrique]

9. a lot of people don't like anything radical

it comes down to trust for some people. If someone happens across of a freaky Ayn Rand video, it could make them think twice about Ryan.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Her interview with Mike Wallace is filled with wonders...

It's 20 minutes long and all over the internet and You Tube and whatnot....here's a sample:

Mike Wallace: “You are out to destroy almost every edifice of the contemporary American way of life, our Judeo-Christian religion, our modified government regulated capitalism, our rule by majority will. Other reviews have said you scorn churches and the concept of God. Are these accurate criticisms?”

Rand: “Yes”

[jsmirman]

28. I posted that interview a while back here at DU

but I can't remember if someone turned me on to that interview here at some point before that, or if I just meandered to it...

Just funny to try to reconstruct at times where you acquired a particular bit of knowledge.

The main point is that I think it's an amazing interview.

I think Mike Wallace exposes and destroys her and makes her look like a ninny and a fool. I found it devastating, and thus, awesome.

[frogmarch]

10. Well, my republican in-laws were

aghast when I casually mentioned in passing (lol) that Ryan is a devotee of Ayn Rand - who was an ATHEIST!

They'd never vote for a black guy, but most of them consider atheists to be even worse, and the thought of an atheist-loving vice-president makes them "sick at heart." Maybe they won't vote.

[Brother Buzz]

11. It could impact the Catholic vote

Georgetown letter rebukes Ryan on budget proposal and takes a jab Ayn Rand, too.

April 24, 2012
Georgetown Faculty Latest to Chide Ryan

Representative Paul D. Ryan, the Republican chairman of the House Budget Committee, has been excoriated by some Roman Catholic leaders ever since he claimed this month that his budget plan, which slashes antipoverty programs, was inspired by the moral teachings of his Catholic faith.

The latest criticism comes in a letter released Tuesday and signed by nearly 90 faculty members and priests at Georgetown, the Jesuit university in Washington, in advance of Mr. Ryan’s visit there on Thursday. Mr. Ryan is to deliver the prestigious Whittington Lecture, named for an associate dean who was killed on the airplane that crashed into the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001.

The letter says, “We would be remiss in our duty to you and our students if we did not challenge your continuing misuse of Catholic teaching to defend a budget plan that decimates food programs for struggling families, radically weakens protections for the elderly and sick, and gives more tax breaks to the wealthiest few.”

“Your budget appears to reflect the values of your favorite philosopher, Ayn Rand, rather than the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” says the letter, which the faculty members sent to Mr. Ryan along with a copy of the Vatican’s Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church — “to help deepen your understanding of Catholic social teaching.”

<more>

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/georgetown-faculty-latest-to-chide-ryan/

[Lint Head]

12. Most right wingers with whom I talk do not know who Ayn Rand is. I don't think the majority of them

read anything other than the Fox News screen crawl.

[loyalsister]

31. That's exactly why it wouldn't work

They aren't going to read something that jeopardizes the entrenched beliefs that Mitt and Paul want to gut social programs so they can get rich while protecting them and only them from financial disaster. All while overturning Roe vs. Wade, a gun in every house, and a constitutional marriage discrimination amendment.

[reformist2]

13. Exposing Ryan/Romney as Randians would be of interest to an educated crowd.

It's not the main way to defeat them, but it has its place.

[randome]

14. Make 'Ayn Rand' a liability in the same way Reagan denigrated 'liberal'.

Then you'll see the value of it.

[Marr]

54. I could not agree more.

It may not be the most effective tactic from the start, but with a little persistence it soon could be. And should be.

[LaydeeBug]

65. +10,000. nt

[Johonny]

15. Probably right on this

independent voters have no clue who she is/was. Social Conservative voters like what Ryan has done, probably not likely to care about Rand issue. I mean only a generation ago being Catholic was poison to these people, now being Catholic is a calling card to being "right" on social issues. Oh how fast the world changes...

[sadbear]

16. But we're building a narrative here.

In and of itself, yes, probably pointless, but when seen as part of an overall narrative, it just might be effective.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

17. It's the hypocrisy...

Nice Catholic boy is a devoted to the philosophy of someone who despises religion.

There's a larger picture here. Conservative Christians (some of whom could be decent human beings, if they tried at all) need to be reminded that their political leaders are pursuing an economic and social agenda that is rooted in anti-Christian philosophy. The simple fact is that their Lord and Savior is calling them to lead a life that is diametrically opposed to the values of the Paul Ryan's of the world. Jesus talked about healing the sick and feeding the poor. Republicans want to give them a worthless voucher and walk on by.

You want a wedge? Here's a wedge. Use Ayn Rand to get religious voters to question which party's platform better reflects the value espoused in the New Testament.

[Salviati]

29. Exactly. On it's own it's not likely to convince anyone.

Anyone who knows who ayn rand is, knows how they feel about a person who claims to base their ideas on her philosophy. But for those who don't the attack won't mean much.

Priming people to understand who she was and what she espoused on the other hand turns the attack into a powerful wedge as you described.

[Not Me]

18. I disagree with "people vote the top of the ticket"

One word: Palin.

[loyalsister]

34. And yet there was Dan Quayle

I think it has it's place at times, but without the most extreme of circumstances I doubt it is a motivator that could win or lose a election.

[Quantess]

19. What percentage of voters have read even 5 pages of any of her writing?

(5 pages is how much I read of Atlas Shrugged, before realizing it sucked too hard to waste any more time reading it. )

I am guessing that no more than 25% of voters have read 5 pages or more of Ayn Rand.

[nanabugg]

58. That's why a short 5-6 point ad on her beliefs would be so valuable.

Linking Ryan and his budget to 5 points of her philosophy right after showing him saying how much he reveres her and how he makes his students read her work. It would enlighten many people...even some dittoheads.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. "The Ayn Rand attack on Ryan is...a big shrug..."

[reformist2]

21. "Atlas Shrugged" - 25 million copies sold, probably only 2.5 million people actually have read it.

[NightWatcher]

22. I love asking my Fundie Family how they can vote for a cultist (they dont view mormons as xians)

and a guy who "Idolizes" an atheist who was weak kneed over a serial killer.

I love posting Ayn Rand quotes that call religious people "Stupid" and "Weak"

They never have a good answer.

[SunsetDreams]

24. I disagree: Why Religious Leaders Have Condemned The Ryan-Romney Budget

– Catholic nuns, priests, and friars have called the Ryan budget “immoral,” a “severe failure,” and the “height of hypocrisy.” Sister Simone Campbell led a 17-city “Nuns on the Bus” tour this summer to visit faith-based social service programs that would be hurt by cuts proposed in the Ryan budget. Last week her organization, NETWORK, and the Franciscan Action Network invited Mitt Romney to spend a day with them visiting the poor in order to meet the people who’d be affected by their budget cuts. NETWORK issued a statement after the Ryan-VP announcement saying, “We agree with Catholic Bishops that Paul Ryan’s budget fails the test of Catholic Social Teaching since it deliberately harms people at the economic margins.”

– Catholic bishops have called the Ryan budget “unjustified and wrong” and failing a moral test. In April the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops sent a public letter to the House of Representatives saying that the federal budget must “protect poor, vulnerable people.”

– Lisa Sharon Harper from Sojourners: “It is simply unconscionable to balance the budget on the backs of struggling Americans while protecting tax breaks for millionaires. Churches and faith-based nonprofits are already fighting an uphill battle to meet the needs of their communities. They don’t need politicians making their work even harder because Congress is dead set on politicizing a simple duty of common sense governance.”

– Rabbi Jack Moline of the Rabbinical Assembly: “The poor are not statistics….it is unimaginable to look in the face of a child who would go hungry without government assistance and say, ‘Sorry — we need to reduce the deficit.’”

– Rev. Gabriele Salguero of the National Latino Evangelical coalition: “Budgets reflect our deepest moral commitments. Politicians ought to remember that protecting vulnerable families and children is at the center of the biblical command to care for the poor.”

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/13/683291/why-religious-leaders-have-condemned-the-ryan-romney-budget/

Maybe some voters won't understand who Ayn Rand is, but the entire philosophy of Ryan is important. His Budget Plan is important, and just as important to the bottom of the ticket as it is to the top.


Five Times Mitt Romney Has Embraced The Ryan Budget

1. “Very supportive.”“I’m very supportive of the Ryan budget plan. It’s a bold and exciting effort on his part and on the part of the Republicans and it’s very much consistent with what I put out earlier. I think it’s amazing that we have a president who three and a half years in still hasn’t put a proposal out that deals with entitlements. This president’s dealing with entitlement reform — excuse me — this budget deals with entitlement reform, tax policy, which as you know is very similar to the one that I put out and efforts to reign in excessive spending. I applaud it. It’s an excellent piece of work and very much needed.”

2.”The right tone.” Romney told Talking Points Memo, “He is setting the right tone for finally getting spending and entitlements under control. …Anyone who has read my book knows that we are on the same page.’”

3. “Marvelous.” “I think it’d be marvelous if the Senate were to pick up Paul Ryan’s budgetand to adopt it and pass it along to the president,” Romney once professed while in Wisconsin.

Obama mocked him for this one:

More at the link: http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/11/677861/romney-ryan-buget/


Romney can try and run from the fact that he supported Ryan's plan, but it will not work. He is on record at having supported it, there is no guess work of whether he did.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

25. Even a distant tangential association with Randian philosophy should be utterly toxic

It may not quite be as bad as a relationship to Stalinism or Nazism because it hasn't had a chance to fluorish in guiding an entire governent but it's potentially as evil. Ayn Rand's glorification of the deaths of the lower classes such as the scenes she describes in her writings should be very widely discussed and the extent to which this amoral philosophy is used as a source of inspiration by people like Ryan should mark them almost as much as someone who admires Mein Kampf or Mao's little red book. If Americans are ignorant about Ayn Rand's teachings it should be cause for alarm rather than neglect and we should do everythng to bring them up to speed. Maybe a focus on Rand in this election won't change too many minds but opposition to Rand's teachings and their exposure may be more important than just one election.

[moondust]

26. Disagree.

It's what the guy is made of, the ideological foundation of an ideologue.

[fredamae]

27. I think Ryans Ayn Rand adoration

speaks volumes about Romney-it is her philosophy Ryan governs by, Romney knows that and still conscientiously selected him. A VP pick does affect considerations of the POTUS candidate for generally he/she will pick a running mate most reflective of their own values.

[MineralMan]

32. I tend to agree. The percentage of US voters who even

know who Ayn Rand is is very small. The same thing applies to mentioning Ryan's fondness for Austrian Economics, which he shares with Ron Paul. Less than 1% of the population even knows what Austrian Economics is, so it does no good to mention it.

Instead, we need, I think, to focus on what the consequences to normal people will be if Romney/Ryan wins. Those things are clear and they hit home for people who actually go out and vote, despite not really knowing much about political theories and the like.

Such esoteric stuff is really interesting to political junkies, but of no interest at all to the vast majority of voters. We need to focus on what actually affects their lives in ways they can understand.

[nanabugg]

42. That's why it is important for Dem pundits and the Obama campaign to explain who Rand is and what

she stood for every chance they get in a public forum.

[MineralMan]

44. Waste of time, really.

People do not care about a dead novelist, frankly. Not one bit. That's not how you win elections. You win elections by telling people stuff that affect their lives directly, not philosophy. Those who care about Ayn Rand already know about her. Those who don't will not care, no matter how much you explain it. Saying that Ryan wants to take away your Medicare is far more effective than saying that Ryan is a fan of Ayn Rand and Austrian Economics.

If we're going to keep winning, we have to talk about stuff that matters to people who have never been on a political discussion forum in their lives and who won't be in the future, either. Retail politics has nothing to do with philosophy. It has to do with communicating about real-world issues that affect people's lives.

[Ikonoklast]

45. If you keep making Ryan having to defend being an Objectivist it isn't.

Doing that makes him explain his previous life-long infatuation with Rand and keeps him off-balance, off-message, and playing defense.

All that Democrats need to do is keep hammering the massage that Ryan idolizes one of the biggest Atheists who ever lived, they don't even need to touch on Rand's insane political theories.

Drive that wedge into the other side as hard as you can.

[RZM]

35. I'd say the biggest handicap is that many have no idea who she is

Or only a vague idea that she's an author and wrote long, boring books.

The more likely one is to know who she is and what she stood for, the more likely one is to be better-informed in general about politics, and thus more likely to already be leaning one way or another.

Not to say there's anything wrong with tying Ryan to Rand. He does love her, after all. But I wouldn't expect it to move the needle much.

[Redford]

36. Most people have never heard of Ayn Rand.

Out of those that have heard of her, only a few have actually read her books.

[mvd]

40. Exactly. And even some who read her don't understand her.

I think it could be a supplementary thing to add to our attacks.

[AlinPA]

37. Most people don't even know about Ayn Rand. Right now it appears that Ryan has overshadowed

Romney and that Ryan is the real "candidate" because of the media's emphasis on him. I've never seen this much attention on the VP except for Palin. Maybe Romney will get back in control in a few weeks.

[Marr]

55. Most people had never heard of Bill Ayres a few years ago, either.

Make it an issue and it will be an issue.

[Bake]

38. The average voter doesn't know Ayn Rand from Rockin' Randall

So it's pointless. The battle lines are drawn. Tie Rmoney to Ryan's Medicare/Soc Sec plan and nail him up.

Bake

[Motown_Johnny]

39. Anything that keeps them off message is not pointless, although I agree

that most people don't know or won't care anything about Ayn Rand.

[nanabugg]

43. Oh, yeah, BTW, nothing in this election is "pointless." Every vote will be important. nt

[B Calm]

46. Totally disagree!

We need to attack them to show who they really are! I want to play offense!!

[bhikkhu]

47. Disagree - it highlights the radical "social engineering" intended by the ticket

...and if Romney chose him for one thing, its that they have that in common. As people, they didn't go into government to be "the steady hand on the rudder" or to serve the greater good as public servants; they got in to tear it down and re-engineer it. Ryan has all the youthful enthusiasm and Romney has the careless disregard for consequences.

If they fuck things up beyond belief (as radical social engineers are prone to do), Ryan will shrug and take a lesson learned ("who could know that would happen?" - I can see the look on his face already), and Romney would leave the whole mess behind without a care - off on his private jet to some new destination.

[limpyhobbler]

49. Never hurts to paint the opposition as a radical.

It focuses attention on GOP plans to privatize and kill Social Security and medicare.

Winning issues for us.

[JoePhilly]

50. Depends on the audience.

[still_one]

51. I disagree with the conventional wisdom, it does matter this time. He did not just

Choose any vp he choose one who wants to destroy social security and Medicare. Romney has been saying before Ryan that he would support a bill that life begins at conception

Ryan believes in no abortion even in cases of rape or incest, and is extreme on other issues of woman's health

Rand is significant because she does not believe in compassion or conscience.

Those ideas truly reflect Romney and Ryan

Palin became an issue with McCain because he is not young, and it was an issue among independents who did take that into consideration

Ryan's extreme views on women, social security, and Medicare will influence those demographic groups

We will see in a few days what the polls say

[theinquisitivechad]

52. The general public may not understand intellectual sophistry. . .

. . .but they certainly understand hypocrisy. Even Republicans and Independents. From Daily Kos:


"First off, Social Security built Paul Ryan. Ryan's father died when he was 16, and Ryan then received Social Security survivors benefits until he was 18. He was able to save his Social Security to help pay for college. Ryan likes to talk about how he used loans to pay for college, but the fact that he went in with a big chunk of savings thanks to Social Security is something he doesn't emphasize quite as much."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/13/1119570/-Paul-Ryan-says-you-did-build-it-Well-the-government-built-Paul-Ryan

So it's good enough for him, but not good enough to others that need it? "F*ck you, I got mines"? That's total bullsh*t. And that's a facet that I think people would respond viscerally to.

[Marr]

53. Palin.

I'd say she proves that the other half of the ticket can have a profound effect.

[Jim__]

56. McCain was at the top of the ticket too.

I know republicans who didn't vote for him because of Palin. If we can tie Ayn Rand to the Romney/Ryan ticket, they're toast.

[fishwax]

57. I don't think it will have much of an effect on this fall's election, but discussing

the radical nature of that wing of the republican party, the destructive philosophy that lies at its root, and the disconnection between Rand's atheism and the evangelicalism of her adherents in the gop is a worthwhile activity in the long term, and Ryan's VP candidacy provides a convenient outlet for that.

[nanabugg]

59. Hmmm. methinks they doth protest too much who think the Rand connection to Ryan

is pointless.

[Blue Idaho]

60. "Ayn Rand is the reason I got into public service." Paul Ryan.

“What are your masses but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it? What is the people but millions of puny, shrivelled, helpless souls that have no thoughts of their own, no dreams of their own, no will of their own, who eat and sleep and chew helplessly the words others put into their mildewed brains?…I know no worse injustice than justice for all.”

Ayn Rand

[B Calm]

62. Wow, what a sick fucking quote by Ayn Rand!

That is one fucked up woman.

[nanabugg]

61. Well, after Rachel and Larry did their show tonight...no longer pointless...

They did a job on the link between Ryan and Rand.

[CreekDog]

63. If Republicans could somehow turn John Kerry's war record into a negative...

don't be so sure about what will be effective and what won't.

besides, my conservative friend (from church no less) voted against McCain because of Palin.

[LaydeeBug]

64. Taking the 'head in the sand' approach does not bode well for the ostrich.

Just saying.

[ellisonz]

66. Tar them both as whackjobs

And then break out the feathers