The H1B issue: Yes, American workers, YOU DO QUALIFY FOR THAT JOB.

[Zalatix]

This is a direct response to this thread that dishonestly and unfairly attacks American workers. This is an exercise of my God-given right to defend American workers.

Firstly, I will kick this off with that which would usually be put off to the end as a conclusion: the only thing that disqualifies Americans for jobs that H1B visa holders are getting, is Americans won't work for peanuts.

Second of all, I'm going to address the core half-truth that was used to support the argument that "No, you don't qualify for that job":

According to the US Census bureau, in 2009, out of the entire population of the United States - the educational levels are as follows:

17.6% of the population holds a bachelors degree.
7.2% holds a masters degree.
1.9% hold a professional degree.
1.2% hold a doctorate degree.

To this, I present a counter point: that counter point being reality.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/mee-the-brainiac-homeless-man-with-a-ph-d-that-cant-find-a-job/

Times are tough. Perhaps the chilling economic realities can be best encapsulated by the tragic story of Dr. Maurice Johnson. Despite holding a doctorate in plasma physics from Dartmouth College and a masters in electrical engineering and acoustics from Purdue University, Johnson, 55, claims that he is homeless and without a job.

Now we must get to the other central argument:
It is illegal to pay H1B Visa workers wages that are lower than the prevailing wage.

Reality: It is also illegal to steal cars, but 1 million are stolen every year. Likewise:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/us/whistle-blower-claiming-visa-fraud-keeps-his-job-but-not-his-work.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

It has been 17 months since Jack B. Palmer first made a quiet complaint through internal channels at Infosys, the giant Indian outsourcing company he works for, saying he suspected some managers were committing visa fraud. Since then, Mr. Palmer says, he has been harassed by superiors and co-workers, sidelined with no work assignment, shut out of the company’s computers, denied bonuses and hounded by death threats.

http://www.happyschoolsblog.com/11-arrested-in-h1b-visa-fraud-upto-20-years-in-prison/

DES MOINES, Iowa – U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents arrested 11 individuals in six states on Wednesday as part of an investigation into suspected visa and mail fraud. Matthew G. Whitaker, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Iowa, announced the operation, which was carried out by federal, state and local law enforcement agencies in Iowa, California, Massachusetts, Texas, Pennsylvania, Kentucky and New Jersey.

Hint: these workers weren't paid a prevailing wage.

BUT WAIT!!!! There's more! This goes way beyond just H1B's! Take a look at what's happening with J1 visa holders:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/us/18immig.html?pagewanted=all

PALMYRA, Pa. — Hundreds of foreign students, waving their fists and shouting defiantly in many languages, walked off their jobs on Wednesday at a plant here that packs Hershey’s chocolates, saying a summer program that was supposed to be a cultural exchange had instead turned them into underpaid labor.

The point? H1B visa holders are being imported as cheap labor, while Americans holding DOCTORATES in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) related fields are going without jobs.


Next, I will point out this:

Relative to any of the most common benchmarks – the cost of living, the wages of the average worker, or average productivity levels – the current federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour is well below its historical value. These usual reference points, however, understate the true erosion in the minimum wage in recent decades because the average low-wage worker today is both older and much better educated than the average low-wage worker was in the past.

[img][/img]

And let us also examine this, the shortage of jobs for engineers. The going pro-free trade argument of the day is that America needs more H1B workers because we don't have enough engineers. Even a cursory examination of the situation in America shows that this is bullshit.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/06/06/the-death-of-us-engineering/

The alleged "shortage" of US engineering graduates is inconsistent with reports from Duke University that 30 to 40 percent of students in its master’s of engineering management program accept jobs outside the profession. About one-third of engineering graduates from MIT go into careers outside their field. Job outsourcing and work visas for foreign engineers are reducing career opportunities for American engineering graduates and, also, reducing salary scales.

Read that last part, DUers. REDUCING SALARY SCALES.

If we need more engineers then why are engineering salaries going down? Who ever heard of a wage stagnation in an industry where workers are in short supply?

How many unemployed engineers do we have?

http://www.techjournal.org/2012/02/many-engineers-remain-unemployed-despite-reported-tech-skills-shortages/

For a complete review of the American Community Survey, including a table containing detailed employment figures for specific engineering degrees, visit the Center for Immigration Studies website at: http://cis.org/obama-and-engineers

The 2010 American Community Survey shows:

There are 101,000 U.S.-born individuals with engineering degrees who are unemployed.
There are an additional 244,000 U.S.-born individuals under age 65 who have a degree in engineering but who are not in the labor market. This means they are not working nor are they looking for work, and are therefore not counted as unemployed.
In addition to those unemployed and out of the labor force, there are an additional 1.47 million U.S.-born individuals who report they have an engineering degree and have a job, but do not work as engineers.
President Obama specifically used the words “highly skilled.” In 2010, there were 25,000 unemployed U.S.-born individuals with engineering degrees who have a Master’s or Ph.D. and another 68,000 with advanced degrees not in the labor force. There were also 489,000 U.S.-born individuals with graduate degrees who were working, but not as engineers.

Yes, folks, there are thousands of US born highly qualified engineers who do not have jobs. Master's and PhD degree holders, folks.

"No, you don't qualify for that job"?
[img][/img]

Unless someone wants to argue that Americans with Master's or PhD degrees in engineering are idiots.


Now why, you must ask yourself, would corporations be pushing these lies? Profit, of course. Cheaper labor means more profits. The path to cheaper labor is to bring in H1B's. How bad is this situation? Well, how's this for bad?

&feature=player_embedded


Corporations are whining and crying about the low H1B visa limits - something like under 80,000 per year. Perhaps they should be hiring those 1.47 million American workers who have engineering degrees but aren't working as engineers?

YES, AMERICAN WORKERS, YOU ARE QUALIFIED FOR THAT JOB!

Now get out and use force to make your voice heard. VOTE. Kill the H1B visa program. Kill it dead.

[baldguy]

1. K&R

If we want to strengthen the US economy, we have to strengthen the US labor force.

[xchrom]

2. Du rec. Nt

[uponit7771]

3. The video at the end is the end all to the H1 argument, these companies are taught NOT TO HIRE

...American workers.

I've been on the side of the interview where you have all the qualifications except that you're a US worker

[Indian Invasion]

134. I was a hiring manager

For a major US IT firm that has 90% Indian workers. We would ONLY hire the Americans if there was absolutely no other choice. (Because of the cost). THIS DEPRESSES US IT WORKER SALARIES! And it makes potential students of IT NOT enroll or choose other careers. Anyone that doubts it is either East Indian or being paid by corporations to parrot their nonsense.

[Ms. Toad]

135. Are you saying that you paid Americans a different salary for the same job

("Because of the cost" of hiring Americans).

I'm pretty sure that's illegal (discrimination based on national origin, Titls VII, and all that).

It's one thing to pay an IT salary that is low enough that no American wants to accept it - but quite another to hire Americans as a last resort because you would need to pay them more.

And - I have two friends who were hired into 6 digit salaries, one of whom had no IT training (but was a respected self-trained programmer and high school teacher). She's American and - a year later, after making it clear she is off the market, is still being recruited by major US IT firms (3 major names that everyone would recognize, and a number of less well known ones, as well).

[loansstore]

4. I am indian

I am indian and applied for H1B Visa for 3 times and all 3 times i was rejected

[JHB]

5. I'd ask where you're posting from if you didn't get a visa, but...

...you're no longer with us. Bu'bye!!

[uponit7771]

17. There could be a number of factors for this including the Obama admin catching on to H1B visa issues

...but the L1 issues still are afoot and the fraud is too

[mother earth]

6. It has, and always will be about procuring cheap labor, laws are meant to be sidelined by the new

slave masters. If you can't ship 'em here, bring ops there, no labor laws are even better.

Democracy no longer resides here, we are no longer a nation of laws, at least not for the elite, banksters or corporate backed.

[on point]

7. There is NO shortage of qualified americans, only a corporate desire to pay less than market rates

The H1B program is a fraud. There is no shortage of qualified Americans.

If companies were willing to pay the wages, or indeed invest in the on going training of their staff, there would be no need for the program.

In fact, one problem from the failure of US companies to hire and pay the staff they need, is that that this ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES new engineers and other highly trained staff from entering college in these fields in the first place, because they see they will be outsourced or undercut in their wages.

The program actually creates their own problem.

I love the argument that supply and demand set the prices, except that corporations actively work to undercut wages whether is via the import of nurses, engineers or farm labor.

Pay the needed rates and there will be PLENTY of workers.

[twins.fan]

42. Reminds me of a person who murdered his parents and ...

In fact, one problem from the failure of US companies to hire and pay the staff they need, is that that this ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES new engineers and other highly trained staff from entering college in these fields in the first place, because they see they will be outsourced or undercut in their wages.

The behavior of these corporations reminds me of a person who murdered his parents and throwing himself onto the mercy of the court for having become an orphan. Rarely will US corporations train their employees in these evolving technologies.

Now, many companies will layoff their existing workers and replace those workers who have already been trained. Often US STEM workers are so obsessed with the current business needs, they don't have the spare time to take courses in new technologies. Many devote their entire work week and off hours trying to get a new product out the door. They don't have time to explore new technologies, and even if they did, what if they spent their personal time training themselves in a technology that never gained favor?

Most of these technologies are very similar having common concepts and features. Having been trained and prospered in one technology prepares US STEM workers for other technologies. If the worker has an aptitude in one technology, they have an aptitude in a sister technology.

But corporate executives like Bill Gates don't want to hear that. They will exploit every circumstance to layoff a US STEM worker and backfill the position with a cheap, entry level worker from the third world.

[fasttense]

8. Corporations are bringing in cheap, cheap labor because the only organization

that stood against them was destroyed. Unions were destroyed and now corporate corruption rules. If so many had not joined the destroy the Unions bandwagon, this would NOT be happening today. Unions are powerless in the US. So corporations send all the jobs that can be moved to cheap or slave/ prison labor havens then bring into the US as many cheap, cheap laborers they can get away with.

We are not creating enough jobs for people entering the job market in the US. Yet H1B visa labor is pouring in. What's wrong with this picture?

Most of those H1B laborers got their education tuition free. Because in India and other nations, if you have the smarts you can go to college tuition free or at greatly reduced prices. Those H1B visa laborers don't have huge debts to pay off when they get their degrees, that's why they can afford to work for cheap.

[abelenkpe]

26. "Most of those H1B laborers got their education tuition free."

Many were also trained on the job by Americans and then brought to the US to replace American workers for lower salaries leaving the original US worker unemployed and unable to service their enormous student loan debts.

[AnneD]

9. Nurses were pointing this out.....

When hospitals were complaining about the 'shortage' of nurses during the 90's. There was no shortage, just a shortage of Nurses that wanted to be overworked for peanuts. Once the wages went up, Nurses came back to work. Oh, and the whole time there was a shortage, they were closing Schools of Nursing.

I had a friend that was a supervisor and she told me of a job on her floor that I more than qualified for. When I went to human resources, they said I was not qualified. They turned around and told her that no qualified applicants had applied. Hospital kept labor costs down and placated staff by saying....well there is a shortage, you'll just have to make do.

[uponit7771]

18. +1

[Brickbat]

10. Nice work, Zalatix. K&R.

[ChromeFoundry]

11. Nicely done

[Dr Gene Nelson]

12. Work Visa Programs Like H-1B Target Experienced Americans

Jack Abramoff and his team earned lots of money working for Microsoft to help pass 3 "Microsoft friendly" changes to H-1B Visa law between 1995-2000. (Of course Microsoft's spending about $100 million for political purposes during the same interval was another significan factor.) You may view some important lobbying disclosure documents - that are available no where else - by reading the 110 page legal filing http://tinyurl.com/koyqg2 (Exhibit 40) in the case USA v Abramoff.

You may be surprised to learn that an original member of "Team Abramoff" is STILL working for Microsoft to expand the H-1B Visa program. His name is Michael J. Smith and he has been promoted to a VP level at Cornerstone Government Affairs. Michael was terminated from Greenberg - Traurig for ethical lapses.

The B-1 program is as rife with loopholes and corruption as the controversial H-1B Visa program.

As an example, using Google to search for the phrase ""B-1 in lieu of H-1B" yields about 20,600 results on 10 August 2012. Many of the results are immigration attorneys advocating for expansion of this practice. The trade association ofr immigration attorneys, the American Immigration Attorneys Association (AILA) advocates for this program. The result of this fraud is to increase the unemployment of experienced American citizen IT professionals for the economic benefit of elites in both the U.S. and India.

The sums involved are enormous. For details, please search for by title the PDF version of the 2012 report, " How Record Immigration Levels Robbed American High-Tech Workers of $10 Trillion." There have been over 37 million visa admissions in just 5 high-skill work visa programs (The purpose of the B-1 Visa is not supposed to be as a work visa) between FY 1975-2010. Think of the millions of American families that have been harmed by this unprecedented level of immigration. In many cases, the American is forced to train their imported replacement as a condition of receiving their meager outplacement benefit.

Americans may use the no-cost tools at organizations such as NumbersUSA.com, CAPS.org, and FAIRUS.org to press our political leaders to end the corruption and put Americans back to work.

[Ruby the Liberal]

29. Welcome to DU

Great post - thanks for the sites.

[eShirl]

108. good post

Please stick around; don't be a stranger!

[99Forever]

13. Excellent post.

Sadly, no one on either side of the aisle in Washington DC much cares. The plight of displaced American Workers means NOTHING to any of them. They got theirs, fuck the rest of us.

[treestar]

14. H1Bs have to be paid the Prevailing Wage

American workers don't (that's how they end up working for peanuts). The immigration laws are written to protect Americans.

This is a big Whiner's Fail.

They are limited in number, unlike the population of China and India. Outsourcing is far worse - a company can just do it without the restrictions put on their hiring H-1Bs.

[jeff47]

20. And if you put a tooth under your pillow, you'll get a shiny nickel!!

The tooth fairy is about as true as H1B workers getting paid the prevailing wage.

Here's a hint: How do they figure out "prevailing wage"? By job title. Who decides what job title that H1B worker is going to have?

[Zalatix]

23. *crickets*

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

25. Prevailing wage is the one published by the DOL and freely available online

at www.flcdatacenter.com. It is based on the job title and geographical location. DOL and USCIS have the power to question your usage of the prevailing wage and to request that you change your job description if the PW and job duties don't match.

Please note the H-1B visa is a 'specialty occupation' visa. H-1Bs are only for those positions that require the knowledge acquired by possessing at least a U.S. bachelor's degree or above (or their foreign equivalents). The job must be a professional job and the person must possess the required academic credentials. You cannot apply for an H-1B visa for a secretarial position, nor can you apply if you only possess a high school diploma without any experience or further academic work.

Academic credentials not obtained in the U.S. must be evaluated by USCIS-approved third-party credential evaluation agencies who review the transcripts and verify that the schools actually exist. They also have reference books on all worldwide schools, universities and colleges and can make a determination on the equivalence.

Certain universities in India, for instance, grant a bachelor's degree that is not recognized as equivalent to a U.S. bachelor's degree.
Certain high schools in Europe, for instance, grant a diploma that is actually equivalent to two years of college in the U.S., whereas European technical institute diplomas are often equivalent to U.S. bachelor's degrees.

Moreover, USCIS has an 'experience' rule that can also be used where it decrees that three years of verifiable full-time experience are equivalent to one year of undergraduate studies (this rule has been changed a few times - it used to be 2 years of experience for 1 year of undergrad).

[jeff47]

43. Here's the key parts

It is based on the job title and geographical location.

So, declare the "Software Engineer IV" is actually a "Software Engineer II". Ta-da! 50% lower prevailing wage.

DOL and USCIS have the power to question your usage of the prevailing wage and to request that you change your job description if the PW and job duties don't match.

I'm sure the people underpaying, or their slave (the H1B holder) are lining up to report the situation.

[Zalatix]

22. You've already been shown proof in the OP that you are flat-out wrong.

You've already been shown proof in the OP that you are flat-out wrong.

You've already been shown proof in the OP that you are flat-out wrong.

Your post is one big case of DENIAL.

[abelenkpe]

27. Funny

I've worked side by side with many brought over on H1B visas and know for a fact they are paid less and pretty much captured in that they can't easily move from one job to another so they don't complain about their wages. But do hold on to your fictional justifications for allowing corporations to continue to pit workers against one another and erode worker rights everywhere. H1B visas are just one more tool corporations have been using to break labor and destroy unions.

[sabrina 1]

36. Except that's not what's happening. Did you read the links in the OP and in the thread, btw?

[Zalatix]

54. Post #34 is further proof that H1Bs are underpaid. Do you have any counter-evidence?

I know you intended your post as a drive-by, but perhaps there's hope that you'll at least attempt to back up your denials?

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

59. So funny, it's sad.

I am certain treestar has never read the H-1B regulations or H-1B statutes if he would not be making such an embarrassing statement.

The statutes (clearly written by lobbyists) are designed to make it appear that H-1B workers are not underpaid but are carefully crafted to ensure employers can pay them next to nothing.

8 USC 1182(n) clearly states H-1B workers have to be paid the prevailing wage.
8 USC 1182(p) redefines the term "prevailing wage" to be something other than its normal meaning.

Plus, the employer can put down absolutely anything as the prevailing wage and it certain to be approved. 8 USC 1182(n) only allows the LCA to be check to see if the form is filled out correctly. It also explicitly prohibits DoL form going back and investigating a company based upon its LCA filings.

In regard outsourcing, the largest uses of H-1B visas are the outsourcing companies. They use H-1B to provide on site support and training for the jobs moved overseas. End H-1B and computer offshoring nearly goes away.

[gkr]

131. jsut like

like the manufcaturing jobs didnt go to china since there are no h1b at the time

[Union Scribe]

90. Hey, where'd ya go?

[eShirl]

109. HA!

[AzDar]

15. K & R

[DainBramaged]

16. H1B or how to filp a page in a manual without the caller hearing

Say can I go work in India, I know more than the people there I talk to on the phone every day..........I don't need to flip pages in a book for the answers.

[OnionPatch]

19. I work in an IT field

All I know is I watched my company outsource about 15 jobs to India and bring in a handful of them on these visas to manage the overseas team. I am CERTAIN Americans could have done these jobs. I personally know people with the computer skills to do these jobs. It would take a few days training at the most to get them up to speed on the project. I could see no reason at all why they wouldn't hire Americans. It's hard not to conclude that it just boils down to the money.

I have nothing against Indian workers. They're just trying to get along like the rest of us, but I think most of them know they are being used to push down American wages.

[sarcasmo]

31. +1

[gkr]

132. you are right on the money

biggest threat to h1b worker's job,,,, Out sourcing. h1b is only a temporary phase, in the grand scheme of things, before everything that can be outsourced is outsourced.

but you are wrong on the wages though.... everyone just assumes that h1b get paid less salary. that is not true,,,they get paid just as much..atleast very close.

[OhioChick]

21. Well Said and Agreed

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

24. Lots of inaccuracies about H-1Bs and a general misunderstanding of how the legal immigration process

works... not surprising, even on DU.

First of all, there is fraud in everything - from visas to food stamps to healthcare to the military to anything else. Just because companies like Infosys have committed fraud does not mean everybody does it. Again, I wish to reiterate that I've been working in this field (legal immigration) for a long time. I know more about it than most lawyers, which is why I get paid rather well for my knowledge. I've worked with some of the largest companies, as well as other professionals and start-ups in a variety of industries ranging from IT to entertainment, fashion to medicine, etc. In all my years of work, I have yet to come across one visa petition that I either completed and/or signed that did not comply with the immigration laws in force, including prevailing wage attestations for H-1Bs. Since for the most part I didn't work alone, I can also tell you my colleagues were as diligent as I was and most of my coworkers are born and bred U.S. citizens.

Currently, the H-1B cap is 58,000 per fiscal year (October 1), plus a few more for Master's or above graduates from U.S. universities, graduates in STEM and Singaporean/Chilean citizens. Most are gobbled up by IT, but not all are. The rest are for other professionals whose jobs require at least a U.S. bachelor's or foreign equivalent or above (scientists, accountants, etc.) and a good chunk is reserved for ... fashion models of acclaim who don't rise to the level of supermodels (for whom the O-1 extraordinary ability category best fits). In other words, engineers are not the great majority of H-1B recipients.

Moreover, using a source such as CounterPunch, which provides no back-up to its assertion that H-1B workers lower the wages for everyone else, is not beneficial. Since there are 58,000 H-1Bs available per given year as opposed to millions of workers, that's a rather small percentage of workers with seemingly amazing powers to determine wages for everyone else???? It is rather silly as an argument. Additiionally, before we forget, it is actually rather expensive for employers to hire anyone in any visa category (H, L, E, O, etc.). By law, employers are required to pay the filing fees (currently $2,325 for a new H-1B) for the H-1B as well as some other visa categories. Moreover, they also pay the legal fees. In other words, if a company wants to hire anyone on a visa status, you have to tack on an additional $5,000 to $10,000 or more in legal fees from the get-go, without any guarantee that this person will actually qualify and be approved for any visa.

If anything, the great majority of fraud comes from the L-1B visa - intracompany transferee with 'specialized knowledge' - a visa classification that is rife with abuses because there are no prevailing wage requirements, no education requirements or anything else to prevent a lousy employer to pay nothing to the workers and treating them like indentured servants. L-1Bs are not even required to be paid in U.S. dollars and the cost of an L-1B is much lower than an H-1B. For IT companies, the L-1Bs are much easier to obtain, cheaper, faster and not subject to the Congress-mandated cap. Indeed, this is how many companies can bring in 10 workers for the price of one U.S. worker. The H visa program is much more restrictive, more expensive, slower, much more regulated and much more frequently audited.

The J visa is not an employment-based visa. An employer does not petition for J-1 visa workers. A J visa is for trainees who are allowed a maximum of 18 months before being subjected (in most cases) to a two-year residency requirement (meaning that they have to remain abroad for two years prior to being able to apply for other visa classifications). In order for someone to obtain a J visa, s/he must make an application with a third-party NGO or government agency that has training programs available. Normally, there is a training program in place with benchmarks and ways to measure performance or learning objectives. However, many of these third-party NGOs use this J program as an 'intern' and 'unpaid trainee' program, circumventing the aim and true goals of the J program, which initially were to expose foreign trainees to American ways and culture. Again, this is not an employer-based visa, so the fault lies in these third-party NGOs that offer these fraudulent programs.

And, finally, the famous (or rather infamous) labor certification video. First of all, the labor certification is NOT related to H-1B visas. The labor certification is Stage I for those already working in the U.S. on a visa who are seeking to become U.S. permanent residents via employer sponsorship (in other words, those who want to get a green card). There are basically two main ways to get permanent residence: via family sponsorship or via employer sponsorship. For most who are on an employer-sponsored visa, the labor certification process will be the first step.

I'm not sure when this video was made, but since May 2007 the new PERM rules have been in place which dictate various compliance matters for the employer: (1) employer must pay all expenses including legal fees and employee cannot be asked to reimburse or have their pay deducted; (2) the employer must request a prevailing wage determination from the DOL and (3) must pay at least the PW amount or more; (4) the ads must run for two consecutive Sundays in a local newspaper and (5) for professional positions there are additional recruitment criteria; (6) any resume received must be screened and if the applicant appears to meet the minimum qualifications for the job, then the applicant must be interviewed but can be disqualified if s/he is not willing to accept the wage offered and/or s/he is not a U.S. citizen or green card holder. Please note, however, that the job ad cannot be tailored to the alien's work or work experience.

These PERMs are audited consistently and very often by DOL. In fact, lately they are pretty much auditing all of them. Not all get approved and it does happen that an applicant is successfully interviewed and hired, thus stopping the process (I just had this happen).

However, the PERM and H-1Bs have nothing to do with one another. H-1Bs don't require ads in the paper or proving your recruitment practices, while PERMs do.

Lastly, as a legal immigrant myself, I'd like to point out that some posters say jobs should be for U.S. citizens only. That's not correct, as per the law. Any job - unless it's a certain federal job - is open to anyone who can legally work in the U.S. That includes U.S. citizens AND lawful permanent residents (a/k/a 'green card' holders), as well as a few others who are authorized to work for any employer without restrictions (for instance, people in the process of getting their green cards who have Employment Authorization Documents - EADs - as well as certain asylees and refugees). In other words, the only way a job can be for U.S. citizens only is for that job to be a federal job and/or one that requires security clearances. All other jobs are open to any of the categories above.

[sabrina 1]

38. Thanks for an informed post. But I'm not sure it disproves the claims that

there are not enough qualified workers in the US OR that once the H-IBs get through the immigration process and go out into the work place, that they are NOT paid less than an American worker would be.

[jeff47]

45. Could you at least be consistent when trying to justify destroying my profession?

In all my years of work, I have yet to come across one visa petition that I either completed and/or signed that did not comply with the immigration laws in force, including prevailing wage attestations for H-1Bs.

Because as a paralegal, you are an expert in the job duties of software developers.

Also, employers never, ever lie about job duties. That's why they never have to add "and other duties as assigned" to every single job description.

Most are gobbled up by IT, but not all are. (...) In other words, engineers are not the great majority of H-1B recipients.

Pick one. Either most are gobbled up by IT, or engineers are not the majority. Or are you gonna claim that "great majority" requires something like 90%?

Moreover, using a source such as CounterPunch, which provides no back-up to its assertion that H-1B workers lower the wages for everyone else, is not beneficial.

Well, it should be trivial for you to demonstrate H1Bs haven't lowered wages. Just show how wages have gone up despite H1B workers. Oh wait....

Since there are 58,000 H-1Bs available per given year as opposed to millions of workers

BLS says 913,100
Wikipedia claims 1,350,505 with a much broader definition.
So 4-6% H-1B workers, if we use 58k H-1Bs for convenience.. Let's see...is our current 8% unemployment having an effect on wages that's different than the 2% unemployment during the Clinton boom? Yes. Well then maybe 4-6% of software developers can have an effect on wages.

it is actually rather expensive for employers to hire anyone in any visa category (H, L, E, O, etc.)

So employers bother with this much more expensive process instead of hiring or training a US person and don't receive any cost savings. Are you also selling bridges?

Training is quite cheap, especially with the tax benefits and the "you must keep working for us for X years" contracts when you can underpay the now-trained worker. So how strange that these companies are blowing large sums of money paying for visas......or maybe those of us in the industry might have a clue about what effects they're having on our industry.

If anything, the great majority of fraud comes from the L-1B visa

Sure, if you want to avoid having us look at H-1Bs. Since L1s require the the company already be an international company, and the worker must have worked with the foreign part of the company for a year before applying for the L1, and the L1 can only be used for 3 years instead of 6 years for an H-1B. But I'm sure those relevant details just slipped your mind.

The J visa is not an employment-based visa

Well then it's a good thing you decided to discuss it when trying to convince us H-1Bs don't affect employment.

(6) any resume received must be screened and if the applicant appears to meet the minimum qualifications for the job

Here's how the trick for this part works, since it's currently flooding my inbox.
The HR people go on sites like Monster.com, and offer the job to people who are looking for work in other areas. As in, you're looking for work in Los Angeles, and you get an email offering a job in New York. When you turn it down because you aren't interesting in moving across the country, you are used as proof that the employer can't find qualified US employees.

I get about 3-6 of these emails a week.

Lastly, as a legal immigrant myself, I'd like to point out that some posters say jobs should be for U.S. citizens only.

Yes, no one ever uses shorthand on discussion boards. They always make full and complete statements describing in exact legal detail what they believe.

[Panasonic]

49. same here

Get tons of irrelevant eemails that are often from Indian recruiters. It is nnow being ignored. Not even worth a response

[gkr]

133. you are missing out

don't ignore those job requirements since they are from recruiter with Indian names. They are really trying to hire you. H1b process doesn't require companies to go out and send emails to individual people.

[Egalitarian Thug]

47. Yes, lots of inaccuracies and many of them coming from you. n/t

[Ruby the Liberal]

28. Well done!

k&r

[L0oniX]

30. I would bet that master's or phd degrees in engineering are not needed for many of those "jobs".

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

60. Take a look

Go to DICE.COM and see how many engineering jobs require a Phd. (ans. virtually none).

Historically, one got a PhD in engineering to work in academia. Industry demand is virtually zero.

[twins.fan]

32. Great post Zalatix

Zalatix, Thanks for the post. I found this forum because your post showed up high in the search engine. I have been posting on the community forums on Dice, which has a couple of problems. Maybe this will enable me to join a larger group in posting my opinions and identifying events that have occurred in the past several years.

Of course Dice.com is in business to make money, and often the discussion of H1B visas venture into topics that Dice.com simply does not want to discuss. Their methods of dealing with the unspeakable truths is to often censor and edit the opinion of others. Engaging in that battle is just too much work and too distracting to my focus.

[sabrina 1]

37. Welcome to DU twins.fan

I never heard of Dice, but glad you found DU.

[Egalitarian Thug]

48. Dice has been at the veyr center of this scam since its inception.

Dice and Monster both not only tolerate, but encourage, false postings for the express purpose of evading what little regulation remains.

They make $ from the job ads (and the site spam, of course) whether those jobs exist or not and for whatever purpose they are placed. They have colluded with the industry in ripping off American workers and lying about the shortages of qualified workers since the Clinton administration that started all this.

[sabrina 1]

51. Thanks for the info, I had never heard of it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

52. Strictly IT, or at least used to be. And you're always welcome. n/t

[Zalatix]

53. Wow! And Welcome to DU!

I never thought my posts were popping up conspicuously in the search engines.

There are several labor oriented groups that are prominent now. There's one on DU and others. PM me for more information!

[twins.fan]

55. Cannot issue private message

Zalatix, I have not made enough contributions to initiate private messages yet. If we talk, you will have to initiate it until I attain that status. I would really like to know where else I can contribute comments besides here.

I am a lifelong Democrat, and I have a real problem with the way the Democratic leadership has been selling out US STEM workers. I don't know how well my honesty will play out here. I'll give it a try, but I believe that I am going to stir up some feathers.

[antigop]

33. An IT labor economics lesson from Memphis for IBM

http://www.cringely.com/2012/06/14/an-it-labor-economics-lesson-from-memphis-for-ibm/

Cynics like me point out that foreign workers are paid less and — more importantly — place much less of a total financial burden on employers because they get few, if any, long term benefits. I tend to think the issue isn’t finding good workers it’s finding cheap workers. But the H1B program isn’t supposed to be about saving money, so that argument can’t be used by organizations pushing for higher visa limits. All they can claim is a labor shortage that can only be corrected by issuing more H1Bs.

To test this theory let’s look at Memphis, TN, where IBM has recently lost two big customers. One of them — Hilton Hotels — dumped IBM only this week. The other company is ServiceMaster.
.....
When ServiceMaster announced its decision to cancel its contract with IBM and to in-source a new IT team, the company had to find 200 solid IT people immediately. Memphis is a small community and there can’t be that many skilled IT workers there, right? ServiceMaster held a job fair one Saturday and over 1000 people attended. They talked to them all, invited the best back for second interviews, and two weeks later ServiceMaster had a new IT department. The company is reportedly happy with the new department whose workers are probably more skilled and more experienced than the IBMers they are replacing.

Where, again, is that IT labor shortage? Apparently not in Memphis.

[antigop]

34. The underpayment of H-1Bs is well-established fact, not rumor, anecdote or ideology.

Lots at Professor Norman Matloff's website.

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html

The underpayment of H-1Bs is well-established fact, not rumor, anecdote or ideology. It has been confirmed by two congressionally-commissioned reports, and a number of academic studies, in both statistical and qualitative analyses.

Even former software industry entrepreneur CEO Vivek Wadhwa, now a defender of foreign worker programs who is quoted often in the press, has confessed,

I know from my experience as a tech CEO that H-1Bs are cheaper than domestic hires. Technically, these workers are supposed to be paid a "prevailing wage," but this mechanism is riddled with loopholes.

Wadhwa has also stated

I was one of the first [CEOs] to use H-1B visas to bring workers to the U.S.A. Why did I do that? Because it was cheaper.

Norm Matloff's writings on h-1b and offshoring
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1bwritings.html

[twins.fan]

56. Are H-1B Workers Getting Bilked?

Antigop, You are quite correct. Attached is another example of exploitation of H1B workers by State Farm Insurance and Patni Computer Systems. State Farm did not want to dirty their hands in this fraud. So they had an Indian H1B body shop do their dirty work for them.

Are H-1B Workers Getting Bilked?

[jeff47]

61. Relative to their home country, no bilking. Relative to US workers, yes. (nt)

[twins.fan]

62. Patni is from a country whose corruption is legendary

The laws are not really relevant when they are doing business in the US. It is US laws that are relevant. And US laws were being broken.

[jeff47]

64. I'm speaking more of the opportunity to the specific worker

They could do much better since they're in the US, but they're already doing better than in their homeland.

[rock]

35. Bingo!

I mean K & R.

[southmost]

39. kicked

[div class=

[Egalitarian Thug]

40. K&R Don't forget the ever-popular change the job title strategy.

The Senior OO developer earning $175K becomes a systems analyst or project manager that only has to be paid $62K. Skills are downgraded, entire fields of expertise are redefined, and so on.

And then there are the people like myself that have a wide and varying range of skills required to perform the job, the employer looking to hire cheap just picks the lowest paying skill set and uses that to qualify for that prevailing wage.

[pa28]

41. K&R for the excellent rebuttal and bullship cleanup duty. n/t

[Hydra]

44. HB-1's also point to the nasty side of Corps

It's not just that you can pay people less with them- you can treat them worse, make them work for less overall or situationally no pay, and then if they complain you can offer them the door- which in many cases means going home.

Could there be a situation more ripe for abuse?

[twins.fan]

63. Yes the corporations are nasty, but so are their proxies

An executive from Apple spoke the truth that many found upsetting when he questioned why Apple should show loyalty to the US. Of course in that line of argument, the executives work in the best interests of Apple, and the best interests of the United State simply does not concern the executives of Apple. Many people were upset about that line of thought, but that is the line of thought for Apple, Google, Microsoft, Intel, etc.

When the executives sponsor their sock-puppet politicians, it is also true for the politicians too whether the poiticians are Democrat or Republican. These politicians are working on behalf of corporations, period.

[American Made]

46. Damn Straight. It's about time we started putting Americans first.

No foreigner should get hired ahead of an American. Period.

Like you said, we ARE qualified.

I'm glad people are finally starting to take ACTION on this.

[twins.fan]

65. We are the only ones who can change it too!

I voted for Bill Clinton twice. While he was facing impeachment, I called my congressional representatives supporting Bill Clinton like so many other US STEM workers who were Democrats. Little did I know that he was betraying us as I was supporting him.

Unbeknownst to me Clinton was in the background working to triple the number of H1B visas, undermining US STEM workers. It is typical for Democratic politicians to deny understanding how the H1B visa has been so destructive to the lives of US STEM workers and their families. They pretend not to know.

Then,because of the release of relevant documentation during Elena Kagan's confirmation to the Supreme Court, we discovered that Bill Clinton knew in advance the destructive nature of this visa and went ahead with it anyway.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9178806/_Elena_s_Inbox_details_H_1B_battle_in_Clinton_White_House?taxonomyId=70&pageNumber=1

The story reports:

Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology, said, "The H-1B program's significant vulnerability to abuse was well understood by the Clinton administration, and initially it was worried about it.

"In fact, the administration threatened to veto any cap increase unless it came with significant reforms that ensured that American workers weren't harmed by the H-1B program," said Hira. "But as we now know from these e-mails, the Clinton administration caved in to the special interests of industry, leaving American workers high and dry, and leaving the huge loopholes in the H-1B program in place."

Even in a climate in which the IT employment market was exploding and unemployment in general was low, Hira said, "the flaws in the H-1B program were front and center in [Clinton White House] thinking."

[pipoman]

50. The Labor Party is Dead..eom

[SouthAsian59]

57. Lying and cheating.

There is a big reason Indian IT workers have an advantage over their American counterparts here in America: they lie and cheat. What I am about to tell you is something I have experienced. I am myself an American citizen. However, my wife is a green card holder. She became a green card holder after marrying me. She has her resume on monster.com. Since she has an Indian name, she constantly gets emails from IT recruiting companies. These IT companies I am talking about are all Indian-owned. They told my wife that they will train her to use certain software products (even though her background is in accounting). They will keep 30% of what she makes, and she will keep 70%. Even with the 70% of the total salary, she would still make well north of 50k.
Now, here's the deal. My wife has ZERO computer science experience. So you may all be asking, why would companies hire her? What the Indian IT recruiting firms ask her to do is lie on her resume. They wanted her to lie on the resume. For example, if she has no experience in C++, they want you to show that you have 7+ years experience programming in C++. I am an honest guy myself, and so is my wife. My wife went to train for a while, but when we saw what the company was all about, we told them we weren't interested anymore.
If you don't believe me, go to monster.com, create an Indian-sounding them, and see for yourself what happens. You will get emails from these companies every day. Most of these firms are based in New Jersey.
My wife is currently working at a retail store as a sales associate. Better to work honestly than lie and cheat.

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

58. There's always at least one in every crowd

There are people who are inherently contrarians. You say "left". They say "right." You get fired and replaced by an H-1B worker. They say it isn't happening.

If you read the book Airport by Arthur Hailey, one of his characters (Marcus Rathbone) is exactly like the person who wrote the post the Zalatix responds to. If you've only seen the movie, he's the one who says Captain Demerest has no right to take the bomb from Guerrero---then snatches the bomb and hands it back to the bomber.

A number of years ago when I posted about the goings on in H-1B there was a joker (initials JJ) who would follow me around various boards and made a response to every post that I was a racist. He would use the same old canards "According to the Southern Poverty Law Center ..."

Then JJ got fired and replaced by a worker from India on H-1B. I have not seen him on line since.

These guys are everywhere. A friend of mine wrote a book. He showed me an announcement he had made to a board devoted to the book subject where he was a regular participant. Most of the responses were congratulations. There was one Marcus Rathbone who (having never seen the book) was trashing it repeatedly with utterly false accusations. My friend would respond with the facts and Marcus would post another slander.

My friend had never had a run-in with this Marcus before. He was just trashing to be a contrarian.

You see that here repeatedly with H-1B. There is a small handful who will repeatedly post disinformation in order to be contrary.

[agent zero]

66. I totally agree. Thank You

[boppers]

67. Racism masked as "Dey took er jobs!"

.....Again.

Since this nasty piece of work went with the "education" angle, a few words on the topic:
1. Your education means jack shit. Congratulations for being conned, here's your diploma, it doesn't mean shit.
2. You do not have a right to "make more money" for your education. Deal with it.
3. I've been working professionally in IT for 22 years, and most current college grads cannot write code. They currently learn some OO/Java shit, some theory, and then come into actual code and are shell shocked that most of the world runs on C. Almost all their teaching was useless, as it was based on theoretical models with unlimited RAM and CPU.
4. Maybe other engineering fields are different, I would hope so, but I doubt it.

But hey, blame the immigrant workers for having a shitty education and low job prospects, because, you know, it couldn't be you, right? It couldn't be our education system, right? It must be IMMIGRANTS!

[Zalatix]

68. Enough with the anti-American worker bigotry. Those jobs belong to us. Period. Dot. Stop.

All four of your points are classic Right Wing sound bites. And all of them are dead wrong.

1) Hatred and disregard for education. A common RW sentiment.

2) More hatred and disregard for the educated workforce. Panders to the cheap labor mindset.

3) Outright lying about college IT grads by claiming they can't write code. A pile of completely unfounded horsecrap passed off as an argument.

4) Claiming that American engineers are poorly skilled. More completely unfounded garbage.


Absolutely none of your points are based on any facts or cited evidence.

Ever wonder why 91 percent of Democrats now OPPOSE offshoring? http://news.yahoo.com/made-america-policies-hugely-popular-survey-shows-210425838--abc-news-politics.html

It's because we see through the lies you're trying to sell here.

[joshcryer]

69. Ahh, ultra-nationalism.

Got to love it.

[Zalatix]

70. What is your problem with American workers having jobs, anyway?

[joshcryer]

72. I'm pro-immigrant and therefore think that they should *be* American citizens.

The H1-B is dual intent visa, therefore they should get Green card precedence or have a separate path to be American citizens.

But go ahead, place all the blame on the poor immigrants trying to take away our jobs.

[Zalatix]

74. They're being used as pools of cheap labor. You keep denying this. Why is that?

Perhaps you want people to be paid less?

[joshcryer]

76. Where have I "denied that" they lower wages under the current system?

You want to do away with the system, I want to improve it to get rid of the cruft and implement progressive immigration policy.

[Zalatix]

78. I want the American citizen Engineers who are out of work to get those jobs first. Period.

And I will fight to the death to make sure they get in first.

[joshcryer]

79. As I said, ultranationalism. I want whoever is experienced to get whatever...

...jobs they can no matter where they were born.

[Zalatix]

81. And you are still trying to sell bigotry.

American engineers are just as experienced and skilled as any other. They have a right to a job in their own country.

Where else do you expect for them to get a job? Can you answer that? Of course not. You've got nothing if you can't toss around your off-base "nationalism" argument.

Again: Where else do you expect for American engineers to get a job?

[joshcryer]

82. They have a right to not work as engineers, too.

The stats are slanted because they're counting all people with engineering degrees. There is a very very high demand for engineers. Some of them simply may not be able to cope with the level of technical requirement necessary to get a job in an engineering field (due to either their incompetency or the failure of their education), others may simply not want to be engineers.

The fact remains that if you want to be one and want to get a job in that field there is a very high demand for it in the United States.

[Zalatix]

85. You lie once again. The problem is not incompetency, though you'd like to accuse Americans of that.

The problem is that American engineers won't work for dirt cheap wages.

H1B workers are often paid less than American engineers - a direct violation of the law.

There is no engineering shortage in America. There is only a shortage of engineers who want to work for low wages.

[joshcryer]

88. It has nothing to do with dirt cheap wages, it's about education...

...and incompetency.

Metropolitan areas with a high demand for H-1B workers are only receiving $3.09 on average per working age person 16 years or older of the technical skills training grants compared to $15.26 for metros that have a lower demand for H-1Bs from 2001-2011. STEM education funds are similarly distributed with the high H-1B metros receiving only $1.00 per working age person 16 years or older compared to $14.10 in the low H-1B metros.

Some of those "engineers" you're citing are simply not capable of filling the job.

[Zalatix]

91. It has everything to do with cheap labor. You are still wrong in accusing Americans of incompetence.

Read the full version of this study

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1380343

Our estimates indicate that H-1B admissions at the current levels are associated with a 5-6% drop in wages for computer programmers and systems analysts. Offshoring appears to lower the wages of a slightly broader class of IT workers, including IT managers, by about 3%. These effects are larger for employees exposed to external labor market forces, such as new graduates or job-hoppers.

The system works as intended: to lower wages for all engineers.

[joshcryer]

92. Cheap labor is a side effect, not a reason for it.

The reason is education as the left wing Brookings Institute clearly outlines.

[Zalatix]

95. It is not a side effect, it is the primary lure of hiring H1B's.

You cannot and will not show any evidence that shows exactly what our engineers are deficient in. Because they're not.

The only deficiency that they have is their refusal to accept a 6% wage cut.

Our estimates indicate that H-1B admissions at the current levels are associated with a 5-6% drop in wages for computer programmers and systems analysts. Offshoring appears to lower the wages of a slightly broader class of IT workers, including IT managers, by about 3%. These effects are larger for employees exposed to external labor market forces, such as new graduates or job-hoppers.

- Tambe, Prasanna and Hitt, Lorin M., H-1B Visas, Offshoring, and the Wages of US Information Technology Workers (April 14, 2009).

[joshcryer]

97. Since you've now simply begun repeating yourself...

...despite that you've been thoroughly disproved, I am done with this.

The Brookings Institute clearly outlines why you are wrong. H1B visas are directly related to places that have less education funding, not that are "luring cheap labor."

I don't take kindly to being bullied by people who use right wing sources aligned with Numbers USA.

[Zalatix]

100. And I don't take kindly to you boldly lying about American workers, either.

You cling desperately to your Brookings Institute cite when I've shown you other cites that clearly refute it, and your cite also doesn't take into account the fact that H1B's are being hired over QUALIFIED engineers applying from other areas.

This is the second time you've said you're done with this. I, and the other 90% of Democrats, will never be done with this until American workers are put first in America.

What you call bullying, I call standing my ground for America's working class. And I will never budge.

[boppers]

111. By the numbers:

1: A useless education is a waste. I'll take ten coders who have actually written production code, with no degree, over a paper mill asshole.
2: See above.
3: Try working in the field. A bunch of Java folks are not educated coders, no matter how many are churned out.
4: Uneducated=unskilled.

Opposing offshoring won't make better coders.

Education will.

[Zalatix]

112. By the numbers - you're still spouting baseless assertions.

1 & 2: You have shown no evidence that American engineers come from mere paper mills. This is just another lie you keep spouting and one that I will keep shooting down.

3: Engineers are not just Java folks. You have once again spouted more unfounded, baseless lies.

4: Once again you have failed to show where American engineers are uneducated.

You are all assertions, zero supporting facts.

Have a nice day!

[boppers]

115. Okay...

1&2: I was talking about my experiences. Maybe you know folks who actually know how to write compilers coming out of school, I haven't met any in the last 20 years.
3. See above.
4. Uhm, if you are in software, and do not know how to write a compiler, you are a failure, or your education was.

You want facts? Most US engineers do not know 5-7 languages. Fail. That alone is enough to disqualify them.

[Zalatix]

117. Still no facts, just your hateful and ultra-biased opinions. Your argument is 100% FAIL.

1, 2, 3: all baseless assertions.
4. You have failed to show that American software engineers cannot write a compiler.

5. You have failed to show that most US engineers don't know 5-7 programming languages.

[boppers]

119. See: Dice.com

Or maybe try hiring some.

Kids out of college know Java, and maybe some ruby (on rails, no less). It's pathetic.

[Zalatix]

121. LOL you don't even know how to back up your assertions, do you?

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

127. Here is the problem:

The decision to go offshore is made by accountants.

I finished a project last year in which I had to get a special exemption to company policy to come on board. The company had a rule that all consultants had to come through a preferred vendor list---a list that consisted exclusively of companies that only hire foreign programmers.

We had an H-1B "networking expert" who knew nothing about about networks. He just had a stack of book that he spent going through. We had 2 H-1B database programmers who could not comprehend the concept of a table join.

The project manager is in a tizzy. He has to deliver a project yet his choice is either get these incompetents from H-1B bodyshops or get nothing.

I was earning $10/hr more than these guys I mentioned (all making the same rate).

Yes, we need better programmers to cut costs. Companies think the better answer is cheaper programmers.

[joshcryer]

89. People don't understand the screening tests these companies have for hiring.

I mean, you look at Google, hard as fuck to get hired by them, you are not coming right out of college and getting a job with them unless you're damn brilliant. People hate that companies want exceptionalism and expect that a piece of paper will grant them passage.

Fact is our educational system is totally fucked and there is a direct correlation with H1Bs and educational grants.

[Zalatix]

102. More desperate lies about American workers.

If our educational system is so fucked, then why does everyone come here to get in our colleges?

You've been grasping for straws since you started... and now you're running out.

[joshcryer]

103. You've repeatedly called me a liar without showing it.

Our educational system in certain areas where H1Bs are most popular is certainly fucked. As high as 13-1 funding disparity? That is fucked.

edit: and I showed where you were using a right wing talking point if anyone would read about the Programmers Guild. I would be ashamed to be quoting a right winger like that. My source is the left wing Brookings Institute. I would never fall to such levels as to cite a right wing group Aligned with Numbers USA.

Have your final say.

[Zalatix]

105. I called you a liar because you FAILED to prove your claim.

You accused American workers of being incompetent and our educational system of being a failure.

Failed educational systems don't attract students from around the world, as ours does. Your argument is ridiculous on its face.

Bye bye!

[boppers]

113. But if you pay for college, shouldn't you get a job?

[joshcryer]

71. Daily Kos: My Problems with the Programmers Guild

I was in the midst of a long and frustrating job search at a time when many talented programmers were looking for work. An email, mass mailed to a networking group I was a part of, was aimed at recruiting people who just might to use "foreigners" as a scapegoat for the frustration of unemployment.

I was troubled by the tone of the email-- that foreigners (in this case Indians) were the cause of all of the problems and that we Americans should join together to oppose "them". I particularly didn't think attacks on fellow workers was appropriate in a group whose purpose was for people to support each other.

...

According to the Programmers' guild, they can't work here temporarily (the guild opposes temporary visas). They can't work here permanently (the guild is against permanent residence). They can't even access the international market (currently dominated by American countries) and work in their own country (that would be "outsourcing&quot .

They are fine with the role of American programmers in the international marketplace. But people who didn't happen to be born American shouldn't work in this market... no matter how talented or hardworking they are.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/01/23/440814/-My-Problems-with-the-Programmers-Guild

Yeah, OP, thanks for littering this forum with a right wing talking point. I really don't have the patience to rebut this garbage.

[Zalatix]

73. Right wing talking point? 91% of Democrats are on my side, not yours. Have a nice day!

http://news.yahoo.com/made-america-policies-hugely-popular-survey-shows-210425838--abc-news-politics.html

While President Obama and Mitt Romney bicker over whose policies will send more jobs overseas, there is one side of the job creation coin that both candidates agree on: that the government should do its darndest to keep manufacturing jobs in America.

Unlike many of the job proposals both candidates are pushing, "Buy America" policies that encourage the government to buy products that are made in the U.S. whenever possible are hugely popular across party lines, according to a national survey commissioned by the Alliance for American Manufacturing and the United Steelworkers.

"On the federal level if we can expose where we can see tax dollars leaking overseas we can reverse it because there is the political will to do that," said Scott Paul, the executive director of the Alliance for American Manufacturing.

Overwhelming majorities of people from all political parties said they supported "Buy America" policies that would mandate that taxpayer money can only be used on goods that were made in America.

Nearly 9 out of 10 Republicans and Independents and 91 percent of Democrats said they support "Buy America" preferences, according to the survey,which was conducted by the Democratic-leaning Mellman Group.

The US Chamber of Commerce could use your help, though.

[joshcryer]

75. Insourcing is different from outsourcing. Nice straw man though.

And nice dig at me calling me a right winger when you're the one posting right wing sources aligned with fucking Numbers USA.

My statements are fully supportive of progressive immigration policy and insourcing.

[Zalatix]

77. We already have a GLUT of American engineers with ADVANCED DEGREES looking for work.

Your argument that we shouldn't concentrate on them first is not only anti-American, it is also anti-worker. And a Right Wing talking point, too.

Insourcing has nothing to do with H1B's.

[joshcryer]

80. That is patently false. Unemployment for engineers it 2%. TWO PERCENT.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/2012/03/22/youre-an-engineer-youre-hired

Please don't lie.

Only 4.5 percent of all undergraduates come out of school with engineering degrees, according to the National Science Foundation.

[Zalatix]

83. What I said is perfectly correct. And I have cites, too.

http://www.techjournal.org/2012/02/many-engineers-remain-unemployed-despite-reported-tech-skills-shortages/

The 2010 American Community Survey shows:

There are 101,000 U.S.-born individuals with engineering degrees who are unemployed.
There are an additional 244,000 U.S.-born individuals under age 65 who have a degree in engineering but who are not in the labor market. This means they are not working nor are they looking for work, and are therefore not counted as unemployed.
In addition to those unemployed and out of the labor force, there are an additional 1.47 million U.S.-born individuals who report they have an engineering degree and have a job, but do not work as engineers.
President Obama specifically used the words “highly skilled.” In 2010, there were 25,000 unemployed U.S.-born individuals with engineering degrees who have a Master’s or Ph.D. and another 68,000 with advanced degrees not in the labor force. There were also 489,000 U.S.-born individuals with graduate degrees who were working, but not as engineers.

I am not the one lying. YOU ARE.

[joshcryer]

84. I guess you want Obama to "dance a jig" too? I addressed that in #82.

I knew you'd post those highly slanted stats.

Blame the immigrants though despite that the demand for engineers is just utterly high.

Potential jury: this is in DIRECT REFERENCE to a woman who made this same right wing talking point telling Obama to "dance a jig." You can read about it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002246441

[Zalatix]

86. Oooh, and now you're being racist, too. "Obama dance a jig"? Where did that BS come from?

Those stats are not slanted - they're just not favorable to you.

Your claim that the demand for engineers is high, is still false.

[joshcryer]

87. There's a reason that demand for engineers is high.

It's because those engineers are simply not qualified at the level that companies are looking for. boopers hits the nail on the head.

In fact, the Brookings Institute shows that H1-B's are most common in areas that have low educational grants.

Metropolitan areas with a high demand for H-1B workers are only receiving $3.09 on average per working age person 16 years or older of the technical skills training grants compared to $15.26 for metros that have a lower demand for H-1Bs from 2001-2011. STEM education funds are similarly distributed with the high H-1B metros receiving only $1.00 per working age person 16 years or older compared to $14.10 in the low H-1B metros.

It's directly connected to our failure to educate our citizens.

[Zalatix]

93. No, it has nothing to do with "failure to educate our citizens". Zero. Zip. Nada.

http://www.techjournal.org/2012/02/many-engineers-remain-unemployed-despite-reported-tech-skills-shortages/

In 2010, there were 25,000 unemployed U.S.-born individuals with engineering degrees who have a Master’s or Ph.D. and another 68,000 with advanced degrees not in the labor force. There were also 489,000 U.S.-born individuals with graduate degrees who were working, but not as engineers.

These are engineers with MASTER'S and DOCTORATE degrees.

You have no case when you claim that these people are incompetent, or that our educational system has failed anyone.

It is not that at all and you have no supporting evidence.

[joshcryer]

94. I just quoted the stat and you repeated yourself!

The Brookings Study already proves that you're wrong! The H1Bs are going to places where education is unfunded! C'mon! The evidence is clear!

Those engineers simply don't qualify. Their degrees are bunk. That's the reality!

[Zalatix]

96. I repeated myself because your "facts" are in error. Your "evidence" is as clear as mud.

The Tambe, Prasanna and Hitt, Lorin M. study proves that you are wrong.

Your "evidence" is ULTRA faulty - it doesn't take into account the fact that American engineers can move to those places that you speak of.

You are lying when you say American engineers don't qualify. Plain and simple.

[joshcryer]

98. You're saying the Brookings Institute is lying.

As all I am doing is quoting their data.

[Zalatix]

101. Yup, I sure am saying their "facts" are half-truths. And they are half-truths.

I have shown you other cites that contradict them.

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

129. The unemployment rate for engineers is currently 4.9%

That 4.9% figure comes straight from the BLS web site. The last annual unemployment rate was 5.1%.


Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2002 4.2 4.7 4.4 4.4 4.8 3.6 4.6 4.3 4.2 3.6 4.0 4.6 4.3
2003 4.8 4.7 3.6 4.6 4.6 3.8 4.3 4.3 4.6 3.8 5.1 4.1 4.4
2004 4.4 4.7 3.5 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.4 2.7 2.8 1.9 2.1 2.4 2.8
2005 2.5 2.6 2.5 2.2 1.7 1.6 1.9 2.3 2.1 2.3 2.2 1.4 2.1
2006 2.0 2.2 1.7 1.7 1.3 2.2 1.6 1.7 1.0 1.5 1.8 1.7 1.7
2007 2.0 1.7 1.2 1.3 1.3 2.1 1.8 1.7 1.6 1.5 1.2 1.3 1.6
2008 1.9 2.3 2.5 3.1 3.2 3.3 2.3 3.8 4.0 3.7 4.0 3.3 3.1
2009 4.7 5.4 5.0 5.3 7.0 7.5 9.0 9.6 8.4 6.6 7.1 6.7 6.9
2010 8.6 7.0 6.0 6.4 5.4 5.9 6.5 6.5 5.5 6.1 5.8 4.6 6.2
2011 4.9 4.8 4.0 4.1 5.6 5.3 5.9 5.1 5.4 5.5 4.1 6.3 5.1
2012 5.0 4.5 3.2 4.0 5.0 4.7 4.9

[boppers]

116. Tech doesn't win by votes.

The internet does not work that way.

Code wins.

[Zalatix]

118. Tech doesn't win by your baseless assertions, either.

[boppers]

120. Here's a fun question I once got asked:

Write a for loop in as many languages as you know to count from 1 to 10, and output the results.

On paper. Longhand.

After about an hour, they asked me to stop writing, as the average interviewee only had ten minutes of language and writing in them.

[Zalatix]

122. Nice story.

Now how does that apply to anywhere except your particular situation?

You still haven't shown one SHRED of evidence that American engineers are in any way inferior. Except, perhaps, their unwillingness to work for peanuts.

[joshcryer]

99. Brookings Institute on H1Bs:

H-1B visa fees designated for skills training and STEM education have not been proportionately distributed to metro areas requesting the highest number of H-1B workers. Metropolitan areas with a high demand for H-1B workers are only receiving $3.09 on average per working age person 16 years or older of the technical skills training grants compared to $15.26 for metros that have a lower demand for H-1Bs from 2001-2011. STEM education funds are similarly distributed with the high H-1B metros receiving only $1.00 per working age person 16 years or older compared to $14.10 in the low H-1B metros.

The U.S. government should develop an independent standing commission on labor and immigration removed from politics that can adjust the cap for H-1B visa applicants based on local employer skills needs and regional economic indicators. The federal government should also channel H-1B visa fees to skills training in areas that are currently being filled by H-1B workers at the metropolitan level.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2012/07/18-h1b-visas-labor-immigration#overview

[Zalatix]

104. No shortage of QUALIFIED American Engineers. Sorry, you're wrong again.

Here you are, claiming that American Master's Degree and Doctorates are UNQUALIFIED?

Utterly hilarious.

You might also want to look at this.

http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-foreign-stem-graduates-get-green-cards/no-shortage-of-qualified-american-stem-grads

And what is the evidence that there is a large, unmet demand for STEM graduates? A quick scan of this week's news finds that HP will lay off over 27,000 workers this year, following layoffs of over 28,000 a few years ago. Or consider General Electric's recent relocation of its 115 year old X-ray headquarters from Wisconsin to Beijing, following earlier expansion of its corporate research and development labs in India and China. These companies are not alone but represent the general trend, in industry after industry, of locating STEM-intensive activities offshore. It is thus a rather curious proposition that companies are seeking more U.S. STEM employees at the same time they are laying off tens of thousands of STEM workers and increasing employment of offshore STEM workers who earn a fraction of U.S. salaries. And this is occurring at the same time that we graduate two to three times more STEM graduates each year than are hired into a STEM field.

What do the career prospects of a STEM Ph.D. look like? The typical career path is increasingly two post-docs following a Ph.D. before entering the labor market. That is, following a bachelor's degree and another four or five years of intensive study and low-wage labor in a professor's lab, the typical STEM Ph.D. can look forward to yet another six or eight years working at an average salary of $50,000 before they can compete for a regular job in a flooded labor market. For some, a deep and abiding love of science and engineering and willingness to play the job lottery keeps them in the game. For many others, these dim prospects push them to go elsewhere. And this pyramid scheme—of many low-paid graduate students and post-docs working for a small number of senior scientists—rests on having the large supply of foreign students who still flock to the United States because our education system is superb and, because until recently, there were even dimmer prospects of employment in their home countries. However, as more U.S. and international firms move their technology and research operations offshore, good job opportunities outside the United States will continue to draw talented STEM graduates to those locations.

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

125. Brookings Makes No Sense Here

If H-1B visas are being used because Americans are not available (low unemployment), it would make sense to channel the money to other areas of the country with higher unemployment.

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

124. The DailyKos post shows why Labor is screwed ...

The post in question, is yet another example of political correctness trumping common sense.

The Huffington Post author does not have a clue. Here is a good example:

Last year they have opposed the alleged "amnesty" (notice they use the right wing term) for "illegals" in the immigration bill... even though this has almost nothing to do with high tech workers.

The 2008 "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" bill the author refers two had, not one, not two, but three separate provisions to make the number of H-1B visas unlimited. This has everything to do the "high tech workers."

The Huffington Post article, once again, shows how American workers are screwed on both sides. From the left, political correctness trumps common sense. On the right, Wild Wild West, free market capitalism that is only free when it benefits big corporations.

[davidpdx]

106. If companies are abusing the H1B one system then fine them.

I'd even say increase the fines as well. Lower the number to 50,000. I'm not sure you can completely kill it.

I'd even be for a double quota system, the number of companies caught abusing the system, subtract them from the next year. For instance if 1,000 abuses occur and the baseline is 50,000, then only 49,000 are available next year. The year after that it would start over depending upon the abuse in the prior year.

A three strikes law (oh, the Republicans like this for the criminal system, why not apply it to the H1B system). The third time abuse of the visa system for a company they are ineligible for 5 years and a $5 million dollar fine (reinstatement wouldn't be possible until the fine was paid).

I think there are some creative things which can be done besides killing it. These are just the ones I came up with off the top of my head.

[Zalatix]

107. Better than a $5 million fine

How about a minimum $5 million fine or 10% of their net worth, whichever is higher.

Make sure it is NOT a drop-in-the-bucket fine.

[davidpdx]

110. Yeah that sounds good

Like I said I think there are ways to make the system more "full proof" than it is if employers are gaming the system.

Edit: I just thought of another one, a yearly publishing of employers who violate the law.

[Zalatix]

114. And third strike = Federal prison time.

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

126. davidpdx, the problem is

The corporate lobbyists write the bills.

Here is an example form the {Get ready to laugh} "H-1B and L-1 Visa Reform Act of 2010 "

(I) the Secretary shall impose such administrative remedies (including civil monetary penalties in an amount not to exceed $2,000 per violation) as the Secretary determines to be appropriate;

The highest possible fine in H-1B is $35,000. That's less than the wage savings from one H-1B programmer.

Take a look at 8 USC 1182(n)(2) that deals with H-1B enforcement. Rather than just granting general enforcement powers, the law defines specific circumstances where abuse can be investigated.


How about a "free market approach"? We have companies bid for H-1B visas.

[davidpdx]

128. Steve I believe you

The bidding idea is a good one. If they really want it make them pay for it. I applaud your idea.

[SteveSmithCharlotte]

123. Zalatix, this thread is a monument to why labor is screwed in this country ....

Man you really set forth that case.

Reading the responses to your post in an allegedly "progressive" forum, you can see why organized labor is powerless and dying. You can see why the American middle class is getting squeezed.

In a right wing forum, you'd be bombarded with posts about "free trade."
In this forum, you get bombarded with politically-correct posts about "racism."

The average American gets squeezed on both sides.

If calling for an immigration system that works for ordinary Americans is "racist" we can just pack it in and go home.

I know 2 people who have been replaced by foreign workers on H-1B visas THREE TIMES. Many TWO TIMES. How do you have the American dream when, out of the blue, you can be kicked out of your job on the street?

It is impossible for a union to organize technology workers if it can simply replace those workers with foreign workers.
It is impossible for a union to organize meat packers, if it can simply hire illegal aliens.

[agent zero]

130. I totally agree we need to talk more about the illegal immigration problem.

American jobs should be for American people.