One thing that's being left out of all the TSA scanner/groper discussions is

[Ghost in the Machine]

..the simple fact that there were NO hijackings inside the US from Feb 1991 until Sept 11, 2001. This was due to the baggage checks and safeguards already put into place since Richard Nixon created the Federal Marshal program on Sept 11, 1970, and the inti-hijacking bill was signed in Aug. 1974, which sanctioned universal screening.

On Sept 11, 2001 a group of extremists hijacked 4 planes and used them as weapons against us. Since that time, we have seen our liberties erode to the point of having to be groped before flying. What makes it even worse is that we have people right here on DU making comments such as "If I want to get on that plane, then I have to be patted down, and of course, they will check out my groin area!!" and "She chose to be touched instead of viewed... I find that weird in someone so sensitive. I would expect my crotch to be thoroughly investigated in a pat down."

I find it odd that one act by a group of extremists can have that much effect on our Nation as a whole, and our People, as individuals. How did people manage to fly without being groped or scanned before 9-11-01? When people make comments like the quotes above, it only tells me that the terrorists have truly won.. I, for one, refuse to live in fear.

It's time to wake up, folks. "Big Brother" is using the events of one isolated incident to strengthen the grip of the police state in America.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I agree.

And just how do you propose we stop it?

The Congress is just as cowed as the rest of us, it seems.

My husband and I will be flying late this summer abroad, and this will be the first time since these new procedures have been implemented.

I do NOT want to be groped, so I will opt (if the choice is thrust upon me) to be scanned.

Of course, I may luck out and not have to do anything more than what I'm used to.

We shall see.

[Ghost in the Machine]

2. Thank you, Peggy, and best of luck to you

I hope you don't have a hard time getting boarded on your plane, but you might want to expect the worse, since you will be traveling abroad.

I really don't know how we are going to stop it, other than people just refusing to fly.

Peace,

Ghost

[sabrina 1]

13. People are fighting this. One way you can help is when you

are buying your ticket, maybe call a few airlines for prices and ask if you will be subjected to these abuses because you do not wish to be. You don't have to threaten not to fly, but just asking, letting them know people are upset makes them aware that it is an issue.

I intend to ask that if I have to fly this year, and I do intend to tell them I will not fly if there is even a chance of what happened to that woman this week happening to me or anyone I care about. I will tell them I will not go through their Rapiscans nor will I agree to any 'enhanced patdown' so I guess we'll be driving or taking the train.

Enjoy your vacations anyhow, and I hope you do not have to go through any of this.

And people need to call Congress.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

30. Those are good ideas; thank you.

We have no choice but to fly. We're going to Iceland...

[Matariki]

32. You realize that going through the scanner doesn't mean you won't get groped.

I guess the question is, how do we change *anything* in this country. It's never easy, that's for sure.

[hlthe2b]

3. I agree.... and I am devastated so many DUers are ready to

acquiesce--though there is NO evidence the scanners and gropes have any effectiveness (and some scanner evidence that points quite to the contrary) while known risks go unaddressed, including the failure to secure tarmac staff, including food services.

I have said before and will once again that I have traveled extensively over the past decade and even in the Middle East (or in European countries arriving FROM the ME), I have never been expected to allow a security officer to grope intimate areas with absolutely no prior cause.

It is a vile show with no evidence to support it. Sadly, many of us have become every bit as cowardly about terrorism as the RW tried so hard to make us. Content to allow such acts pf personal violation--in direct opposition to our civil rights--in some misbegotten and unfounded hope that it would somehow prevent an air terrorist event.

[Ghost in the Machine]

12. Yes, the system seemed to work just fine for over ten years, didn't it?

Amazing how one isolated incident could change all that..

:hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

26. It makes me physically ill

I am now in a position where I am eligible for the Canadian equivalent of a green card, and sadly one of the greatest influences on my thought process has been the enthusiastic embrace of supposedly "activist democrats" of every asinine and perverted escalation in the name of security, they are every bit the useful idiots Freepers are.

[SheilaT]

4. I worked at DCA for ten years, starting in 1969.

So I recall very well what it was like before any security, and exactly why the original security procedures came about. And I know all that the current "security" is utterly worthless.

I haven't flown in over three years now, and I can't imagine being willing to do so these days. I will drive for three days rather than take a plane.

[Ghost in the Machine]

14. I'm with you, I'd rather drive for three days than be subjected to the

"security" one has to endure today..

I'm planning a road trip out through the midwest, eventually winding up in Washington State, the going thru Canada and into Alaska. I have one more year before my son is out of school and it's something I've been wanting to do for a few years now..

Peace,

Ghost

[Sherman A1]

24. Road trips are the way!

I do one each year and they are great.

I have flown once since 2001 and it was a family emergency. Other than that, no airports for me.

[Ghost in the Machine]

44. I'm really looking forward to it, and won't be in any hurry when I go..

I won't really care if it takes 2 months to do it.. or longer.. home will be here when I get back, barring some unforeseen disaster.

[villager]

5. With even Democratic "Undergrounders" parroting the sound bytes of the fear state

...then clearly, the tactics have been successful. "It's for our own good!"

So many are so buffaloed, that it's hard to imagine the next invasive tactic, and the one(s) after that, being slowed.

After all, even a "Democratic" President can get behind them!

[Ghost in the Machine]

16. Exactly, we have a Democrat for POTUS now, so it's all good!

Where are the war protestors??? :shrug:

[sabrina 1]

17. It's BECAUSE a Democratic president is behind them

that we now have democrats abandoning the six year fight against them, and parroting the sound bytes. Our team is doing it so now it's alright! The Powers behind all of this, KNOW this and they count on it.

Eg, these new 'enhanced' patdowns were announced by the TSA Blogger on the TSA Website several months ago. There is a comment section there and I saw some of the best comments ever attached to that announcement. Almost 100% opposed to the machines and the coming patdowns. People asked repeatedly what these 'enhanced' patdowns would entail, but the TSA Blogger would not explain.

However, several people there suggested that the only reason for the 'enhanced' patdowns, and the announcement, was to make the patdowns so bad, to get the word around that they were really were intrusive, that people would start choosing to go through the Rapiscans instead.

Iow, it was the theory of many people there that the whole purpose of the 'enhanced' patdowns and the announcement of them, was to force people to use the Rapiscans since they were opting out of them at that point, making them basically irrelevant.

And reading some of the comments, very few I'm happy to say, today on DU, the plan worked perfectly. To say that a woman should not have been stupid enough to choose being physically molested when she could have chosen to be viewed?? It just leaves me speechless. How much lower can we go?? And still get people on our team to go along? Maybe I should not ask. After all, I never dreamed I would see the comments I saw on DU today justifying these gross abuses, especially since they are for profit, not for safety.

[Ghost in the Machine]

20. +1000

[FiveGoodMen]

34. And that's why the PTB let a 'Dem' into the White House -- to get US on their bandwagon

Sorry for the tinfoil hat...

No. No, I'm not.

[sabrina 1]

36. Well, even if that was not their intention, although I tend to

believe it also, it definitely has worked out for them judging by the sudden pro-war attitude of some on the left now.

[Ghost in the Machine]

45. Hence my reply above..

"where are all the war protestors?"

It seems everything is alright now, just because we have a Democrat for POTUS.. the wars are still just as wrong as they ever were..

[PufPuf23]

6. From 1992 to 1995 I or my employees had carry ons that included firearms

on Horizon Air in California and connected to Alaska Air in Seattle or Portland for Alaska and vice versa.

We also had pepper spray. Why? We were on Fed contracts for ecological surveys on the Tongass NF that required firearms or in some cases only pepper spray depending on whether in a brown or black bear area. The pepper spray went in luggage but the firearms were carry ons.

The only problem was that the firearms had to be in locked and secure package and the airline noticed in advance (when ticket booked). The first of many trips, we showed up at the airport for Horizon and declered the firearms but did not have proper containers. I personally took out a roll of duct tape and started wrapping the carryons with arms and asked when to stop. I think I had been one of the most frequent flyers from the airport for the past 6-7 years. They let us on and I bought approved containment in Juneau and never again had a problem. There was more concern about the pepper spray (that could not be in carryons) than the firearms (that were not in overhead racks but in the closets in the front of the plane).

[Ghost in the Machine]

18. So much has changed.. I can remember in high school we used to bring our rifles

during deer season and keep them in our cars/trucks in the parking lot so we could leave straight from school and go hunting. It was nothing to be out in the parking lot at lunch, showing off our guns. No one ever thought about shooting anyone, either.

[greyl]

7. 1994: FedEx Flight 705

Less than thirty minutes into the flight, the bloodbath began.

The weapons that Calloway chose for his attack seem bizarre and indicative of a deranged mind. When one understands the cold calculation of his plan, though, the terrible logic becomes clear. The guitar case contained two claw hammers, two sledge mallets, a knife and a speargun. Calloway could have easily smuggled a gun on board Flight 705, but he wanted to inflict no injuries that were inconsistent with an air crash—for that was at the heart of his plan. Having already purchased thousands of dollars worth of death and dismemberment insurance, he planned to bludgeon to death the crew of Flight 705, then crash the DC-10 into the terminal of the Memphis Superhub. His own death would secure his family’s future, while the devastating crash would likely destroy FedEx. But first he had to kill the crew; it was their will to survive that foiled Auburn Calloway’s plan.

http://www.tailstrike.com/070494.htm

(I'm not defending the TSA here at all, just presenting some facts that could be important.)

I don't think the framing of this conversation should leave out international hijackings and other in-flight terrorist incidents that have occurred since 9/11, and between 1994 and 2011.

edit: Iow, your statements "I find it odd that one act by a group of extremists" and ""Big Brother" is using the events of one isolated incident" are inaccurate and misleading.

[hlthe2b]

9. I vaguely remember hearing about that... but never the details...

None of the TSA steps will stop a determined "mad man." Not to mention that we don't even have controls over ground crew that service the planes. Tarmacs are NOT secure.

[greyl]

11. True. We should never have an expectation of total safety.

Reasonable safety shouldn't be too much to ask for, however.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ghost in the Machine]

25. FedEx has passenger jets? Who knew!

"(I'm not defending the TSA here at all, just presenting some facts that could be important.)"

No, your "facts" are totally irrelevant to this discussion of passenger jet hijackings in the US

"I don't think the framing of this conversation should leave out international hijackings and other in-flight terrorist incidents that have occurred since 9/11, and between 1994 and 2011."

Then feel free to start your own thread about those subjects, otherwise please stay on topic. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

"edit: Iow, your statements "I find it odd that one act by a group of extremists" and ""Big Brother" is using the events of one isolated incident" are inaccurate and misleading."

If you have proof of passenger jets being hijacked in the US between 1991 and 2001, please post your evidence for review.

Furthermore, if you can find me ONE blog post, newpaper article or anything else that contains a piece of cargo complaining about getting groped or scanned by TSA, please post it and I will give your reply further consideration. Until such time, please consider this issue with you closed. Thanks for understanding...

Ghost

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

27. Cargo planes usually carry a few passengers,

I have flown on a couple, usually two or three rows of regular airline seats behind the cockpit ahead of the cargo bulkhead, along with the regular bathroom and small galley. Not luxurious, but free if you know the right people.

[Ghost in the Machine]

40. "Not luxurious, but free if you know the right people."

Exactly... it's not like they are hauling 300+ random people around, it's usually someone who knows someone, or an employee, as in the case above. Also, at best the case above could only be classified as an *attempted* hijacking, since the perp never gained control of the plane. He got his ass handed to him by people he had already beaten half to death.

:hi:

[JDPriestly]

8. It's a boondoggle waste of money.

Could we have a terrorist attack? Yes. But it could be anywhere. Planes are not the only vulnerable point in our country. It is absurd to put so much money and so much manpower into safeguarding airports and planes when other locations which I would not want to identify for obvious reasons could be just as dangerous if not more so.

We are spending an awful lot of money on airport security. It's basically a full employment program for a group of people that I don't think is particularly well educated or talented. It is a poor use of our national resources. The cost of airport security should be paid by those who use the airports, not by tax funds.

Do you realize that we already had terror threats on the airlines back in the 1980s and before? The airport security is an excuse to intimidate people and discourage travel by extending the time required for it.

[Ghost in the Machine]

21. I can totally agree with your last sentence..

They seem to be making it harder and harder on people, in an attempt to discourage them from flying. Why, though? To make the sting of a border shutdown a little less painful? To get people used to security checkpoints throughout the US? What is their purpose? It seems they wouldn't want to financially hurt the airline corporations, would they?

[suffragette]

15. Agree with all you say, but

I think the shift to compliance began earlier when when metal detectors started being installed in schools and students being searched started being introduced more often. And events started having security checks of bags, pockets etc at the doors.

After 911, it became more widespread, more intrusive and with more expensive equipment (and $$$ contracts for those businesses).

The mindset, both from the authoritarians wanting all the searching and those who have become so accustomed to it that they now feel safer with it and fearful in its absence had already been building. 911 was the excuse to implement more widely.

I'm not sure at this point how we get this scaled back again.

As you noted, even on DU, there's not only acquiescence, but agreement and defense by some with this direction, even to the extent of casting doubt on why people would have issues with such intrusive methods.

At one point, when they first introduced the new groping a few years ago, it was condemned, rejected by the public and quickly withdrawn. But it was reintroduced, partnered with the the scanners as an alternative/addition to high-tech intrusion and though some people balked and continue to, has been forced and enforced as the new standard.

It keeps increasing and I don't know how to slow that.

[Ghost in the Machine]

22. "911 was the excuse to implement more widely"

Yes, I believe that wholeheartedly. I won't say any more because I don't want this moved lol..

:hi:

[suffragette]

28. Yep, and wonder if they'll update this teaching toy to the new method

:hi:

[notesdev]

19. "Never waste a crisis"

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. Exactly... n/t

[robinlynne]

29. and another. The scans are dangerous to your health.

[Ghost in the Machine]

37. I thought that went without saying..

but thanks for saying it, anyways. At least you "get it". :hi:

[Drew Richards]

31. You know what I don't get?

The federal air marshals work we really don't need the extreme loss of our liberties.
What we need is to arm all the marshals with the multiple projectile stun guns that can shoot a needle up to 300 feet.

No need for guns on the plane and chance of decompression just tase em.

I wonder why the whole gun vrs taser is not discussed?

[Ghost in the Machine]

38. Yes, that's a very good idea you have..

Tasers instead of guns for Air Marshals.. I like it! :hi:

[Aerows]

33. None of this will prevent another attack, anyway

If someone is willing to die to bomb a plane, they will find a way. What's next, anal probes? This is fascism at it's finest. Get the people used to the police state, much like the war on drugs did.

[FiveGoodMen]

35. Agreed.

[Ghost in the Machine]

39. "What's next, anal probes?"

Oh lord, don't give them ideas!

"This is fascism at it's finest. Get the people used to the police state, much like the war on drugs did."

Yep, that was my point exactly.. the expansion of the police state..

:hi:

[woo me with science]

41. Kicking and recommending this thread x10000000000 nt

[Ghost in the Machine]

43. Thank you.. n/t

[Last_Stand]

42. "I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords..." n/t