A cultural lesson for DU.

[The Backlash Cometh]

Now that everyone has learned to classify Hispanic-Americans closer to their more regional areas like Latin American versus Hispanics from Spain, it's time for the next lesson. Latin Americans recognize subtle differences between each other, based on country of origin. It behooves Democrats to learn those subtleties because the Hispanic vote may require that you adjust your strategy depending on which culture is more dominant locally.

In order to avoid getting this post pulled, I'm going to have to encourage you to read between the lines. The article below is interesting in its own right because it illustrates one person's "mistake" in handling appointments to a redistricting board. Notice how the issue is no longer just down to picking a person of Hispanic heritage, but now the people who make up the dominant numbers in that district want someone on that board who is part of their own culture.

This should tell you that Latin Americans don't see "Hispanics" as one monoculture, but cultures with as many similarities as they have differences. The sooner you understand those subtle differences, the more effective you will be in reaching your target audience.


Orange County commissioner faces Puerto Rican 'backlash' over advisory panel picks

She unleashed a firestorm by making appointments and comments that to many Hispanics appeared to show little regard for a community that makes up more than a third of her district.

It started when Thompson chose a pair of business professionals for an advisory board that will help redraw political boundaries. In March after the picks were approved, she said picking a Hispanic for the panel was not a priority, and her main concern was finding someone qualified.

<snip>

Even so, the resulting furor prompted The New York Times to single out Thompson in its Census coverage in a story about how Central Florida struggles to give Puerto Rican-Americans seats at the leadership table.

None of the three Hispanics on the redistricting board are from Puerto Rico. Two have Cuban backgrounds. The group meets again Wednesday at 6 p.m. at the county administration building, 201 S. Rosalind Ave, Orlando.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/local/os-thompson-puerto-ricans-20110425,0,1667321.story

[cliffordu]

1. ...Hispanics from Spain......

WOULDN'T THEY BE SPANIARDS??????

:rofl:

[pintobean]

2. Here endeth the lesson.

Good call.
:rofl:

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. Spaniards, are citizens of Spain, however.

We're looking for categories that would apply to the U.S. Census. Is there a special category for Spaniard-Americans? Or are they referred to as Hispanic-Americans in the Census?

[Cleita]

15. They should be referred to as European Americans

just as much as any person of English or German decent. Spain is after all in Europe, isn't it?

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. So a person of Spaniard descent, for the sake of the U.S. Census, would not be tallied

into the Hispanic-American formula?

[Cleita]

34. I don't think anyone should be tallied into the formula

as it stands. I did a separate post on what I think lower down.

If the census wants to separate Americans by race, then it should be Caucasian, African, native American, Pacific Islander and Asian. All people from South of the United States border are any one or a mixture of those races. There is no need to be a Hispanic. I believe Spaniards could be classified as either white or arabic but since both are considered caucasian, they don't fit into the category either.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. I see. Well, that's certainly your opinion.

However, I don't think it will help awaken the political interest of many Latino Americans who feel they aren't being represented properly.

[Quantess]

66. I know a fair skinned red headed man, last name, Garcia.

Nobody would ever mistake him for a Mexican.
I think you blew it when you threw Spain into the mix.

[The Backlash Cometh]

74. I went by the U.S. Census.

If they're being categorized as "Other Hispanics" then it's a factor that's going to make a difference in the statistics.

This has nothing to do with DNA. It has everything to do with cultural identification.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. There is no separate category for Spaniard-Americans.

They fall into the remainder category of "other Hispanic." Mexicans, Cubans, and Puerto Ricans are separately reported. This level of aggregation is based on two things: first, the categorization must be sufficiently discrete to inform federal programs (for example, if one is trying to determine if EEO targets can be met, census aggregations provide the benchmark for percent by race/ethic group. Second, less aggregation in large data sets is preferred because it makes the data more useful. It's easy to aggregate when fewer categories are needed but impossible to disaggregate without access to the raw data. Usually a remainder category counts fewer people than any of the separately stated categories, although sometimes that isn't the case because there are many subcategories,each with n's too low to disaggregate (too low is often defined by census as cell size so small that there is a high risk of individually identifying data.) However, it's necessary to understand the distribution of categories in order to confirm that it is too low to be separately stated and that's why remainder categories generally ask for the respondent to specify a self-description.

[Cleita]

35. Very stupid of the census bureau. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. Thanks for the info, I think.

I understood all the way up through the first sentence, then got lost in the accumulation of aggregates.

[Gormy Cuss]

58. LOL!

Let me try again. A basic rule of developing categories in survey data is that you need to count people in groups big enough to assure confidentiality yet in groups small enough so that the data is as useful as possible because it's always possible to combine and report on fewer categories, but once the data is collected it's impossible to subdivide the data.

Many Federal programs require participation targets based on racial/ethnic origin as part of efforts to correct racial biases. Let's say that a city is 40% persons of Hispanic/Latino origin. One would expect the program participation rate on the city level to be about that. However, let's say that the number breaks down to half Puerto Ricans, one quarter Cubans and the remaining quarter are a mix of a dozen H/L/S origins, and the Cubans dominates local power and unfairly exclude Puerto Ricans. Using the big number (40%) there would be no evidence of this. By separately counting Puerto Ricans, Cubans, and others of Hispanic/Latino/Spanish origin, the exclusion would stand out.

[The Backlash Cometh]

76. Thank you. Very clear.

[a la izquierda]

132. We do?

Weird. My mom's family is Italian and Spanish, but we check Caucasian.

[Gormy Cuss]

136. The Hispanic/Latino/other Spanish category came about to capture the separate identity from race.

It's far from perfect, but it is considered better than not asking it at all.

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. LOL!

I guess they would. What is the appropriate use of "Hispanics" for the U.S. census?

I've seen them break it down to Mexican Americans, Latin Americans but I haven't paid much attention after that.

[Cleita]

27. As Paul Rodriguez, the comedian, once said shortly

after the predominantly white establishment declared the category Hispanic, "I'm Mexican American. I don't know where Hispania is."

I agree with him. If anything, to be accurate they should have called them North Americans of Spanish heritage, Central Americans and South Americans meaning that is the area of the hemisphere they come from. Actually this is how they are referred to in Chile. Actually Americans, Canadians and English are lumped into a category that I won't go into because it's slang and it's racist, but at least it's not put on official forms.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. You aren't referring to gringos. are you Cleita?

To Latin Americans of other nationalities, I would be referred to as a gringa. It has nothing to do with skin color, but more of a geographical, nationalistic identifier. It's in the dictionary.

[Cleita]

39. I was too, but affectionately with a little 'ita at the end.

My cousins called me that, but never mind, I couldn't win. My North American cousins called me a beaner, also affectionately.

However, it is still racist. I never heard an African American called a gringo down there although they would be called a Yanqui if they were specifically referring to Americans or Canadians. It was always said about light haired, light eyed people and even Germans and Poles would be called that. Maybe it's peculiar to that region of SA.

[Cleita]

13. Not necessarily.

My grandparents were Spanish immigrants to Chile. They spoke with Castillian accents. My mother was a born Chilean of Spanish heritage but a Chilean nontheless and proud of it. She was not descended from the hated conquistadores but was often treated as she was. Spaniard were never liked by Chileans sort of like the Irish don't like the English because of their 800 years of tyranny over the Irish. Hence, the lesson in subtleties that applies even here.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. That's interesting Cleita.

I know that where we lived people were slightly uncomfortable with pure blooded Spaniards, mostly because of the way they arrogantly carried themselves, but having Spanish blood in your family was not considered a bad thing.

[Wait Wut]

91. Yeah. That's what my grandma called herself.

Much to the dismay of her German husband. :eyes:

[dkf]

4. I don't see how focusing on subsections of race are a good thing.

It just separates us. What happened to MLKs dream where we are judged by the content of our character?

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I wish it were that easy.

I know it would simplify my life. But, if the idea is to help people get politically involved and they are the ones that don't feel they're being represented properly, then you take the chance of tuning them out.

[JuniperLea]

50. It is that easy...

It really is. What you propose is just another device to devide us... these things never, ever end well.

[The Backlash Cometh]

78. JuniperLea, you all have had a chance to do it your way. It's not working.

The Republicans are better at this game because they have been doing it in cold business like fashion, looking very closely at the demographics. If they see one Hispanic culture group solidly in the Republican camp, they will continue to back these people, getting them elected to positions of power where they will affect everyone else, drawing them away from the Democrats and their true supporters.

[JuniperLea]

52. Thank you...

Finally! I'm really tired of all these ways to divide us. It never ends well, it's never a good idea, and until we make it stop, we will remain divided and MLK's dream remains a nightmare.

[Gormy Cuss]

65. When bigotry is gone, the need to categorize by race or ethnic origin will be gone.

Whites regardless of national origin are white under census because it doesn't matter. The category of ethnic origin for persons from Spanish language cultures exists specifically because it does matter. In a few decades when that no longer matters, it will disappear. If one looks at historic census data the evolution of racial and ethnic categories is an eye opener.

[The Backlash Cometh]

79. Thanks Gormy.

I think we'll get there faster if we look closely at the assimilation process. What is it that the Republicans are saying that pulls the first and second generations into their fold? I'm sure there is some cultural confusion going on here. By the time they cotton on to what's going on, it will be too late.

[frazzled]

6. Ditto for "Asians"

Imagine how curious and galling it must be for people from such culturally and ethnically diverse countries as Korea, Japan, Indonesia, China, Philippines, Laos, Vietnam, etc. to be lumped together.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. This is the new frontier of awareness, isn't it?

[frazzled]

10. Not really: it was a big discussion back in the 1990s

But it never got anywhere.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. I don't know how it is for Asians, but since the Democrats want to court

the Latin American vote, it's something they should look into.

[patrice]

9. I think EVERYONE needs to be more honest about their own priorities, because doing so

will enable them to make authentic decisions about balancing those priorities in OUR social contexts.

This means that each of us should decide whether differences are more important than shared outcomes, when and under what circumstances and vice versa whether shared outcomes are more important than differences.

And once each of us recognizes what our true priorities are, communities need to decide, in the cases of people whose priorities place differences ahead of shared outcomes the majority of the time, whether those are the people we want representing us or not.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Very well reasoned.

You know, patrice, I can't help thinking that they have been trying to express exactly what you're saying, but people are going deaf because it does come across as Politically Incorrect to make generalizations such as the one which is obviously pointed out in that article.

[patrice]

38. Absolutely. People ARE more reasonable than they often appear. Situations get them

and others bouncing very resonant stuff back and forth and once a tipping point is passed, for many there's no going back even if they wanted to.

I live in a major midwestern metro where this is an example of what happened to the metro schools, which are now a disaster.

[pintobean]

11. The Census Bureau needs to do DNA testing

so they can properly categorize each and every one of us.
:sarcasm:

[SoCalDem]

16. Damned humans... they keep marrying "others" & moving around too

My father was Cuban... but was he?

His father was born in Barcelona and his mother was born in France..They met, married & moved to Cuba in 1918..He and his sister were born in Havana, but were they Cuban?

My grandfather was from Ulster, and my Grandmother from Bohemia, but their children were all born in Kansas.:)

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. Since it's left up to the person to decide for himself how he or she identifies herself,

I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with DNA, but cultural identification. It would be important for the purpose of matching up political representation.

[Cleita]

73. I had to do that when I got married at the Social Security

office to change my name. Even though my maiden name is Dutch, and I checked Caucasian on the form, just because my birth certificate was from Chile, the worker there put "self-described" on the form. I wanted to ask her how she "self-described" herself but I held my tongue.

[The Backlash Cometh]

83. LOL!

[eridani]

125. That accords exactly with Census Bureau training

We were instructed to accept any and all designations that respondents had for themselves.

[notesdev]

18. Naturally common sense gets unrecced

White people don't see themselves as "white", they see themselves as German, English, Welsh, Irish, Scot, Nordic, French, Italian, Austrian, Hungarian, Russian, etc. Orientals see themselves as Japanese, Chinese, Mandarin, Vietnamese, Korean, etc. Even within these subgroups, there are subgroups further still - witness the cultural antipathy between northern and southern Italians. In the north they identify with Austria or France far more closely than they identify with their own countrymen in the peninsula, and again even further still, Sicilians possess a unique culture and generally like to be identified uniquely.

Why should it be any different for people of any other skin color? It's a racist assumption to presume they don't! I know from first hand experience (yay NYC melting pot) that Puerto Ricans, Cubans, and Dominicans each see their own culture as separate and distinct, and not part of some greater Hispanica.

[jtown1123]

23. Good points

However, before everyone jumps in, "orientals" is really not a good term because there is not such place as the orient. Asian is a better term, although it still doesn't distinguish between ethnicities.

[notesdev]

47. I use that term

due to distinct phenotype differences between the various peoples on that continent. There are at least four major phenotype groups on that continent and each can be differentiated further by phenotype into many, many subgroups. A native of Armenia, for example, is very unlikely to look like a native of Malaysia (to pick two arbitrary, geographically diverse countries).

[AsahinaKimi]

80. As for me

I don't like to be called an "Oriental" and I tell people I am either "Japanese-Korean-American" or Asian. Nikkei to Kankoujin no Amerikajin desu!

[notesdev]

88. Asian just isn't very descriptive

The range of peoples in Asia is enormous; "Asian" can mean anything from Russian to Indonesian to Korean to Persian. The word "oriental" is more specific, as it specifically relates to the Pacific rim south of Russia, which, while still diverse, is not nearly as phenotypically diverse as Asia as a whole. I understand that "the Orient" is a European colonialist term, but without an effective substitute of similar meaning, it still has its uses.

[AsahinaKimi]

89. Okay let me put this another way ...

I hate it! daikirai! Call me Japanese Korean American, or Asian. Your choice.

[notesdev]

92. How's this for a compromise

All those syllables are too much for me to keep track of.

How about I simply call you a fellow traveler in the epic journey through time of the species known colloquially as Man?

:hug:

[AsahinaKimi]

95. except I am not a man...

<------I am female :P

[notesdev]

117. I hereby pronounce you

Argumentative-American

[Vanje]

123. No

It is not argumentative to tell people what you would like to be called.

[a la izquierda]

133. Latin American isn't either.

Nor is Hispanic. I'm sure the Mayan or Quechua speakers love being grouped in with their Spanish overlords.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. Thank you. I appreciate your comments.

[pnwmom]

31. I know lots of whites who, like Obama, consider themselves

"mutts."

:)

[demosincebirth]

48. As a Mexican, what you say is true. Also, one thing that binds many latin

Americans is the Catholic Faith.

[The Backlash Cometh]

84. Yes. But it doesn't work in our favor, though it should.

Catholic=conservative and the Republicans have exploited that. But being a Latin American Catholic also means being generous, as Jesus would have been. THIS the Democrats should own, since the way the Democrats think, is very similar to the teachings of the Catholic church in Latin America.

[demosincebirth]

98. Latinos are conservative on abortion, but liberal on other social issue. Out of

35 in my family, here in the BA, only one votes republican. Reason is that she attends a fundy church. The rest of us are catholic. Thats the way it usually breaks down in the latino families.

[EFerrari]

109. Some Latinos are conservative on abortion.

I don't know anyone in my huge family that would vote abortion or condemn anyone for seeking an abortion and several of us have had abortions. Quidado.

[demosincebirth]

122. Personnally, I'm pro-choice and so are many of my relatives. So, what do you want

me to be careful about?

[EFerrari]

128. It might have been true years ago that Latinos were in general

conservative on abortion. It's not clear that we still are, especially as the youngest voting block in the country, and with younger people being more liberal on social issues.

[EFerrari]

108. Well, not really. That might have been true fifty, even 30 years ago.

Not so much any more. In East San Jose, the Evangelicals and the Mormons are doing at least as well as the Catholics. And it's likely that all of those groups are losing attendance.

[demosincebirth]

19. Most Cuban Americans have different political views than the rest of Latinos.

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. Enough said.

To say more will trigger someone's PC meter.

[demosincebirth]

42. Isn't this a discussion forum?

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. I've discussed this before on DU...

...with unfortunate results. People either have the background to understand what we have observed from our experiences, or they treat it like a PC issue.

[demosincebirth]

60. Perdoneme, what do you mean "PC issue?"

[The Backlash Cometh]

81. (One must never speak of subtle differences)

[kestrel91316]

21. I find myself pondering the old saying: Divide and conquer.

Hairsplitting over national origins rather than expecting people to BE AMERICANS when they come here and become citizens is problematic for me. Their first loyalty needs to be to THIS country and ALL its people, not their own little special groups.

I don't, for instance, find myself fretting over the woes of English-Americans or Irish-Americans or Scandinavian-Americans or even French-Americans or Spanish-Americans or Russian-Americans, though I could be considered a member of any of these groups if you go back far enough in my family tree.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. It wouldn't be an issue unless some group out there felt they weren't being

politically recognized. As in the case of the article. Also, some Latin American groups are distrustful of others. I think that's why, at least for the purpose of political representation, these politically incorrect discussions may have some merit.

[KharmaTrain]

25. Carribbeans vs Cuban vs Mexicans...

There are big differences in American Hispanic groups...they have different histories, music, tastes in food and idomatic expressions. It's not unlike the regional differences in this country. You wouldn't dare confuse someone from New York with someone from Texas...and you can tell by their accent and clothing.

For many years I worked with various groups and saw the differences. Cubans are the more "elite"...or so they think. Puerto Ricans and Dominicans like Salsa and Merengues...Colombians have their own music. Then there are the Mexicans who have a totally different style...their Nortenos and Rancheras are like Country music as opposed to the "disco" sound of the Carribbean and Cuban music.

The Democrats have done a piss pour job in outreach to Hispanics...assuming as long as the rushpublicans demonize them they'll vote D. That's a false assumption and one that could come back to bite the party in the years ahead.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. Yes. Precisely my same opinion.

I have an uncle (Latin descent) who was raised in Texas, but married my mother's cousin and settled down in our Latin American country. He was a racist prick, prejudice against blacks. I shouldn't have been surprised to find out that his daughter, when she moved to the U.S. married a racist prick worse than he was. I mean, how crazy is that to be a Latin American and marry someone who says racist things about Latin Americans? I don't get it.

[izquierdista]

28. Sorry, folks, there's only two groups

Us and everyone else. Republicans only appoint "us" people. Democrats will try to appoint some 'everyone else' people, even if they are unclear on the concept.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. Yes, but Democrats need to build their platform. They won't do it that way.

[Dappleganger]

32. They really all just need to learn how to speak American...

it is after all, God's chosen language as it is plainly written in the King James Bible. If it's good enough for our Lord and Savior Jesus H. Christ, is good enough for whole world.





:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[JuniperLea]

43. I'm just not going to talk to anyone anymore...

All y'all are making it too damn hard. Now I'm fucking paranoid where there was never a problem before. I grew up in El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciúncula... it never was us and them, there was never a need to distinguish between the millions of possible melange de heritage. Yesterday I had to rethink and rethink how I might be offending transgender individuals, now this.

I'm done. All y'all are human beings and will be treated as such. I don't give a flying rat's ass what your sexuality or your genealogy is, and dammit that's how I was raised... to not see such things.

Fuck me for treating everyone the same way. Fuck me in the fucking neck for thinking this is all bullshit devised to divide.

I'm done. Anyone who doesn't want treated like a human being had just best put me on ignore now.

[pintobean]

46. Love this post, JuniperLea

I'm with you 100% on this one.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[JuniperLea]

56. I'm happy to hear that, pintobean!

I'm tired of the division, just damn tired. It wastes time and energy and only creates bad feelings. One love!!!

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. Sorry JuniperLea.

I wish the entire world was El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciúncula, (Love the name!) but one of the big reasons that Hispanics are getting bashed in the U.S. is because they don't have proper political representation. This thread is trying to discuss the difficulties that present themselves in getting them to the table.

[JuniperLea]

54. This thread further divides us all...

And until we stop it, we will remain divided. There is nothing that a Latino or Hispanic or Black or White or Asian needs that any other human being needs. Nothing. We need to pull all people into the fold without labeling them... when humans label each other, the next step is always to put the labels in order.

Human beings all need the same things. If we represent human beings, we represent all.

[The Backlash Cometh]

72. That may be the way you see it, but those of us who have lived in the

crossroads of the world know we are far from that point. The way I look at it, the Democrats have had decades to do things your way and it's not working. Meanwhile, the Republicans have been tearing down, one by one, the platforms that use to make this vote a sure thing for Democrats. How are you going to replace that?

Those who may have hop skipped from Mexico, into an area which is dominanted by Mexican-Americans may see this in simple terms. But we who have rubbed shoulders with other Latin American nationalities know that there are some hostilities between certain countries, which if we don't recognize, will cause rudimentary mistakes to be made. Much like the one discussed in the article.

[JuniperLea]

75. I really couldn't disagree more... eom

[The Backlash Cometh]

86. Personally, I think it's condescending and possibly even racist to lump

them all in one group. Making an opinion when you don't take the time to get in the trenches and find out by talking to them, or living within their own subcultures in the U.S., is taking a risk that you might be underselling them.

[JuniperLea]

101. Utter nonsense...

We are all human. That's all we need to know. Racist my lily white ass... puhleeze.

[TK421]

102. I'm not human

just for the record

[datasuspect]

116. my CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer

[TK421]

118. I'll bet you can't be bargained with, can't be reasoned with, and feel no pity,or remorse,or fear

am I right or am I right?

[datasuspect]

120. i'll be back

[JuniperLea]

129. Awesome!

I've never met a non-human before! Pleased to meet ya! I've met a few subhumans in my life... I'm betting you aren't one of those!

[pintobean]

111. The world is upside down

Its now racist to see past race.
I thought your 'racist my lily white ass' comment was rather tame, but I realize its that way for a reason. Out of respect for the mods, I won't say what comes to mind. The post you replied to strongly suggests that we're racists. The rules of the board say to alert, but sometimes its much better to leave things alone so all can see.

[JuniperLea]

130. Well played, IMHO...

I should have posted this too...

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

134. I live with them....

I live with all races... and I say it is utter nonsense to say that when I treat every human being the same is condescending and racist... what a crock of vile shite you spew.

[patrice]

53. Bravo!

:applause:

I think a lot of trouble comes somehow from people thinking that the differences they value as individuals live or die by what OTHERS make of them, when in fact they live or die in how one lives one's OWN life, without depending upon others to make something real or not. That's where identity is founded; others can participate or not in the similarities that they share with you, but the truth or un-truth of anything starts with each and every second of one's own life.

If you need me to make it real for you, you have a problem with whatever it is.

[JuniperLea]

61. Identity! Yes!

And your last sentence gave me chills...

"If you need me to make it real for you, you have a problem with whatever it is."

I don't need to hitch my wagon to any team to have my own idenity, even though my heritage is part of that identity. Everyone has their own, and all are beautiful. What we need least these days is more harsh broad lines drawn between us.

[patrice]

69. Perhaps it IS, as is conventionally said, the instinctual awareness of that weakness that makes

people hyper-vigilant about what are actually inconsequential differences.

[Cleita]

55. I grew up in the same city, however, we were unique.

If you lived there or in New York City, you didn't need to travel to meet and learn from other cultures. They came to you. I used to walk down around places where people still walked like Hollywood Boulevard or the Santa Monica promenade just to listen to the wide variety of languages spoken around me as I passed groups of people doing their shopping or just visiting with one another.

[JuniperLea]

59. It's a beautiful thing to keep traditions and languages and such...

I'm all for it! I love Chinatown, Koreatown, Little India, and my favorite will always be Olvera Street because that's were El Pueblo began. It's good to keep unique qualities inherent in all nationalities. But when it comes to politics, we are ALL We the People... and we are all equal... and pointing to any differences in our humanity is hard for me to take.

[Cleita]

64. I agree with you.

They used to have a Spanish category that lumped in everyone who was Spanish speaking. I really didn't like it when they came up with the Hispanic category because it pushes people even further into an underclass, which is all that these classifications do. Now I know that the census says that they have to do this so those underclasses can get their interests listened to, but it seems to me that there should be a better way, like dividing people by how affluent they are. Perhaps categories like homeless, unemployed, working class poor, working class, working middle class, professional class, new rich, old rich and insufferably rich. This would serve to illustrate the needs of those people regardless of their ethnicity or what language they spoke than any ghettoization on paper will.

[EFerrari]

107. It's too bad that considering other people is so exhausting.

lol

[fishwax]

121. well said n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

45. Spaniards

should not be counted as a minority, IMO. Latinos should because of a cultural, ethnic, and often times racial background that often puts them at a distinct disadvantage in our society.

Spaniards, on the other hand, have very little disadvantage as their culture is similar to France, Portugal, and Italy. When they've done genetic analysis Spaniards turn out to be most similar to the Welsh and Irish.

And I agree that in the end, even Latinos (Latin Americans) don't always have a lot in common. For instance countries like Argentina and Guatemala have very little in common other than the Spanish language and Catholicism.

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. Good observations. Thanks for sharing them.

[Cleita]

57. Don't forget Brazil, which even most Latinos consider

unique and very different from them.

[JuniperLea]

62. And wasn't Argentina ruled by Italians at one point in history?

There sure seem to be a lot of Italian words in their lexicon.

I hope one day we are all a lovely shade of mocha, and we all share the same blood, the same DNA. Ah, but humans would still find a way to divide.

[Cleita]

67. All the countries are culturally varied down there because

immigrants arrived from all over the world there too not just here. There are towns in Argentina and Chile where everyone speaks German because they were settled by German farmers in the nineteenth century. The people seem browner because they intermarried with the indigenous people far more than the North Americans did. The Spanish culture, religion and language became dominant because the conquistadores imposed them at the tip of a sword. The same thing happened here in the South West of the USA. Many of the Mexicans Americans you meet in LA are really Native Americans. They speak Spanish and are Catholics because the missions imposed their culture on them before we took those states away from Mexico, but they still eat the food of their ancestors. All, those tortillas, beans and chili along with the dishes they create of tacos, enchiladas, etc. are Native American. Many of the hated immigrants from Mexico and Central America are Native Americans and still speak their own languages. Spanish is a secondary language to them. I discovered this when I worked as a restaurant bookkeeper and had to deal with the kitchen help on their payroll problems. Although I was hired because I spoke Spanish to deal with them, I found out their Spanish wasn't all that good, had descended to a dialect to communicate with workers from other estados but among workers from their region, they spoke a Native American language.

[The Backlash Cometh]

85. No kidding.

[Vanje]

87. Brazil is "Portuguesic"

not Hispanic

[The Backlash Cometh]

94. I don't think even that will resonate with them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. I found it funny. I laughed.

So I guess it did "resonate with me" in a way. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

110. Doesn't "hispanic" mean from the Iberian penninsula

and wouldn't that be Portugal, too? Or, is that wrong?


/oops

[Vanje]

124. Could be

I was focusing on language.

[mitchtv]

126. yes , true enough

but they are still Latinos if not hispanic

[WinkyDink]

63. But what about the Argentinian-Germans?!

Heeheehee.

[Cleita]

70. Or German Chileans, or Brazilian Pomeranians.

I also had a Brazilian friend of Chinese ethnicity. Like I said upthread, immigrants have poured into Latin America as much as they have here.

[mitchtv]

127. viva Bernardo O'Higgins

[MadHound]

68. How about this,

We simply call people, all people, what they are.

Americans.

Dividing and subdividing people up into various smaller and smaller ethnic groups is simply another facet of the divide and conquer mentality that the power elite use to keep we the people divided amongst ourselves rather than focusing on the real enemy, namely the wealthy and power elite.

[Cleita]

71. Yes, however, they still do and what are we

going to do about it? Look at this birther thing which at the bottom is racist because those birthers don't want to believe that a black person is really an American and could never be President.

[MadHound]

77. So we stoop to the level of birthers,

And divide and subdivide our population on race and ethnicity? Sorry, but I just don't think that is the health route for our society to follow.

[The Backlash Cometh]

82. Well, I'm glad to see you have figure it all out.

Since one size fits all, there's no reason to believe there is any differences within the Democratic party. Correct? That's your easy breezy look on life, right? No difference between the left side of the Democratic party and the right?

Oh, so there IS a difference? And it's important to recognize that difference, isn't it? Now here's a bombshell. If you're trying to get away from racist tags, why are you assuming that all Hispanics are the same and want the same things? Isn't that racist?

[MadHound]

90. So you would rather continue to divide people, citizens of this country by race and ethnicity?

And you call me racist?

Get off of it, right there. Your credibility just went through the basement. Especially since I noticed that you refer to people as "all Hispanics".

They're Americans, just like you and I.

[The Backlash Cometh]

93. Keep the PC going. Just don't be surprised when you lose their votes in the next election.

And I slip into "Hispanics" because that's how I was identified when I first came into the U.S. I'm comfortable with that identifier because I have one parent who falls in one category of Hispanic, and my mother is another. Made it difficult to make a choice, so I used the old category, Hispanic, often, since I still feel comfortable with it.

Much like telling an older generation of Black American that they should use "black" instead of people of color. Really, who are you to tell them to change?

You are wrong, on this matter,too, MadHound. Unless you lived in a City like Miami, or anywhere where there are groups of Carribean, Central and South Americans in the area, I don't think you'll see it.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

97. We will disagree, vehemently on this point.

Something very different is occurring in Florida. Hispanic groups of all kinds are growing in size in this state and want to stand out from Cuban-Americans which were the first to establish prominence in Miami. Just read the article to see the trend. You can ignore it, if you like. But the facts aren't fitting into your perspective.

[bettyellen]

103. oh bullshit to you. i grew up and was friends with a diverse community and most self identified very

specifically as Puerto Rican, African American, Domenican, etc. They were proud of and identified deeply with their cultures- and it;s particular poltical needs and what issues were relevant and politicans if any supported their community. Because they were very aware that America was not (and is not) the barrier free melting pot it pretends to be, the one you fantasize it is. Wishing it doesn't make it so. Personal problems and hangups, please- what a nasty bullshit post. It sounds like you are merely projecting your naive hope on you neighbors.

[bettyellen]

131. This post is insulting and divisive bullshit.

[Blue_In_AK]

99. When we were in San Jose, Costa Rica,

we were warned by the locals against entering a certain eight-block area of downtown because it was "where the Dominicans were." Everybody's got to have somebody to look down on it seems.

[The Backlash Cometh]

100. Madhound doesn't want to believe that such opinions exist.

This is definitely a two edged sword. There are some views within each Latin American subculture which are racist. I read an article about housing in California, where scouts were sent out to see if applicants were given equal access to vacant apartments. They sent a black agent in first, followed by a white agent, both pretending to seek a rental. They didn't just uncover the racist response that we would expect to find. The study discovered that there were some apartment owners who came from Mexico, who would only rent to people of their own province from back home.

So, taking into account that such strong prejudices exist even within the Latin American culture, don't you think that people who have historically felt the sting of these prejudices would want to come here to the U.S. and break from the discrimination they felt elsewhere? Or worse, that as newcomers into this country, that they would resent having their opinions defined by another Latin American group which has treated them in a condescending manner?

[bettyellen]

104. i was the boss of a dozen women from central and south america, as well as DR and omigod they all

had very firm opinions about what nations were best and thought they could perpetuate their pecking order at work. Sadly most of it was based on who was whitest. I hired someone I knew from DR and they others all united (for the first time) and gave her a really hard time. They kept telling me I didn't know what Dominicans were like, they I needed to fire her. I had to threaten everyone that they would go first, because they had shown me they intended to make race an ssue and they were dead wrong. I was going for talent and hard work, and I was keeping her as my right hand, and they could and should learn from her skills and goodness as a person. And so they left her alone, and accepted her just fine after a while. But it was an eye opener all right.

[The Backlash Cometh]

115. Latinos are racist? Say it isn't so!

jk. No reason why it shouldn't be different than anywhere else, with one exception. At least where I grew up, education could transcend color. But you needed a PhD to satisfy some people.

[bettyellen]

119. or nationalistic? well no, the skin color is an issue for many.

I'm reading some real fairy tale bullsht on this page abut how easily and quickly people assimilate and I can only think that thi must be the only sort of people this person has ever met. I guess if I wasnt a kid getting invited into people;s homes. or if I couldn;t speak Spanish, then I might guess that's how it is too.

[EFerrari]

135. Skip Gates is doing a new series, Black in Latin America,

that looks at all the different attitudes toward blackness in the region. So far, he's done Haiti and the DR, last night was Cuba. It's pretty good so far.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/black-in-latin-america/

[Throd]

106. Ay joder! Me duele la cabeza.

[Exilednight]

112. Interesting article. Sadly, the majority of Americans can't tell the difference between

Latinos and Hispanics.

I myself was ignorant to this fact until s Latino friend of mine explained the difference.

[The Backlash Cometh]

114. Just roll with the punches.