Dear Africa! We will pull back/out as soon as the situation "stabilizes". Love, US

[MiddleFingerMom]

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[tabatha]

1. Dear US, UK, France, etc - thank you for helping

[MiddleFingerMom]

2. For those who might not know - in most other cultures the "backward peace sign" means "fuck off" n/t

[tabatha]

3. You may not have seen photo after photo

of the rebels with their two fingers up like that - and I would imagine in order for the photographer to photograph the flags, she had to hold her arm that way. People do not adorn their arms with images of people they dislike. In the ME they create pictures of those they dislike and stomp on them with their feet and shoes.

[MiddleFingerMom]

4. Even if YOU had to hold your arm like that to display your flags for a photographer...

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...would YOU have held up your middle finger (our equivalent of that gesture).
That woman KNEW she was not displaying a peace or victory sign to the camera --
no matter YOUR cultural interpretation.
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Sorry -- I don't assume that she was ignorant of the message she was sending.
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[tabatha]

5. Please check photos of (rebel) Libyans and see that that is how

they all hold their fingers.

Btw, I found the image on a tweet that said she was supporting the coalition.

On edit - check these fingers:









You got it? they all hold up their 2nd and 3rd (middle) fingers.

[MiddleFingerMom]

8. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Every single one of those palms is facing forward.
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YOU got it?
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
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A tweet?!?!?!?
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Now, THERE'S verification and validation!!!!!
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
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In that culture, the BACK of the hand and the two upraised fingers says, "Fuck off".
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[tabatha]

9. Boy, your critical thinking skills are zero.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x800534

[MiddleFingerMom]

11. Critical thinking?!?!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

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Here are the captions for ALL FOUR of those "independent sources" you cite.
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A Libyan girl shows a victory gesture with her arm painted with French,
U.S. , Great Britain, Italian and Qatari flags during a demonstration in Benghazi, Libya,
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A Libyan girl shows a victory gesture with her arm painted with French,
U.S., Great Britain, Italian and Qatari flags during a demonstration in Benghazi, Libya
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A Libyan girl shows a victory gesture with her arm painted with French,
U.S., Great Britain, Italian and Qatari flags durin
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A Libyan girl shows a victory gesture with her arm painted with French,
U.S. , Great Britain, Italian and Qatari flags during a demonstration in Benghazi, Libya,
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And my guess is that those publications WANT to present a united "Thank you thank
you thank you, U.N." front.
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It's not like OUR media presents biased unilaterally-weighted presentations of our
issues.
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Those are nothing but four examples of the same stock AP picture and captioning
PROBABLY from some editor at AP (very possibly far-removed from the scene and the
culture) -- all the other two-finger signs are palm-forward... hers is palm-
backward... which SHE knows is another message entirely.
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"Here," she seems to be saying. "Aren't these (ha-ha) 'flags of gratitude' pretty...
and, by the way... fuck off."
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{i]Critical thinking
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
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You spent all that time presenting the same pic and caption over and over and over.
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OK, the overwhelming instances of your reasoning have convinced me.
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[tabatha]

16. See # 12.

And I am totally unimpressed by all of the histronics.

[pnorman]

21. It still sounds like

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something picked up on Fox Noise!
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As it was once explained to me: With the PALM facing outward, it means PEACE, since the hand is less capable of inflicting a painful blow. This goes way back in Hindu antiquity, and the "V" obviously would have no particular "victory" significance here. But the "VEE for Victory" has the FIST facing outward, and clearly symbolizes some sort of combativeness. AFAIK, that dates back no further than to Winston Churchill during WW2. That the palm direction is frequently confused by many, is no great surprise. Either way, "Fuck You" is quite a stretch. But NOBODY would misinterpret a CLENCHED FIST, which is near universal!

[MiddleFingerMom]

22. Before you credit something stated by me to Fox News... Google is your friend.

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Yes, it DOES predate Churchill (who most often used the palm-forward "V for Victory sign").
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It predates him by about 5 or 6 hundred years -- and is considered to be one of the possible
origins of the term "Fuck you".
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When archers were caught, regardless in what conflict they were
engaged, it was common-place to cut-off their plucking finger. Notice this
is a singular finger because the bows of the day would not have required
more than one finger. The bows used were not compound, relying on pulleys
to produce extra power; rather, a longer bow was used to increase leverage.
The Hundred Years War (1337-1453) enters into the picture when discussing a
folktale about the origins of the phrase "fuck you." The story goes that
when English soldiers captured French archers, they removed the archers'
plucking finger--the middle one. If a French archer was able to escape
without that punishment being completed, he would show them his finger and
exclaim a slang phrase "Plume-tu!" the next time he was enaged in battle
with them. Apparently, the English did not hear so well and bastardized
the phrase further to its modern incantation.
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Now, in my experience -- and I think it's been documented, though I'm
certainly not going to waste my time providing citations, so let's just
say "in my experience" -- people from Europe and the Middle East are MUCH
more aware of other cultures than people in the U.S.
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Libya was controlled by the Italians from about 1912 - 1943 -- by the
French and the English from 1944 - 1952, when it achieved (ahem) independence).
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So, it had lots of soldiers and administrators from whom to learn the
significance of the backward "victory" sign.
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I get the impression that, much as in your case... Fox News would not
actually support whatever THEY would claim with much research either.
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Oh, the irony.
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[tabatha]

24. OK, beat this picture to death.

[MiddleFingerMom]

25. Nothing to beat to death there -- no argument like with the other picture.

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I had seen that, too (but the same article said many in the crowd
were angered that a U.N. airstrike had killed 11 anti-Gaddafi
rebels shortly PRIOR to THAT demonstration -- which was on Apr 2)
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However, that is ONE woman -- and the only other instance I found
was a homemade American flag amongst thousands of demonstrators.
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Their V's for victory (and they are virtually ALL that -- as
opposed to the objective interpretation of the girl's message
in the photo) are for THEIR OWN victories and hopes for more --
not a celebration of the U.N. or America's intervention.
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And, oh yes... what YOU labeled (elsewhere in this thread) as
something akin to "a parade thanking the coalition forces" in
Benghazi on Mar 31 has been referred to in EVERY news source I
could find as "an anti-Gaddafi demonstration" or "a call to end
the war in Libya".
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NOT as a people necessarily grateful to the U.N..
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In fact, there's a common thread that not only do they want to
oust a strongman like Gaddafi, but they also want to oust the
strong Western influences (including the World Bank, America and
the EU) as well.
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They probably recall -- much more than OUR people do -- that our
involvement in Iraq STARTED with a "No-Fly Zone" -- to "protect the
innocent and defenseless Kurds in Northern Iraq against Saddam Hussein".
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And I think we ALL know how that turned out.
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They want SELF-rule -- the West is scrambling to keep Libya's
potential "self"-rule to a bare minimum while maintaining their
own hold on the region.
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For someone whose "proof" seems so superficial -- I recommend
backing off from that emphasis you seem to have on "I win -
you FAIL".
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It speaks volumes in and of itself.
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[pnorman]

28. Google has ALWAYS been my friend. But so is Common Sense, as well as some healthy Scepticism!

Not to mention Snopes! cf: http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.asp

I was in my teens during WW2, and well remember that classic photo of Winston Churchill. He turned what "might" have been an obscure factoid into a viral meme ----"Vee For Victory!" To this day, that phrase will always bring Winnie to mind!
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Oh, the irony!
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Back to Fox Noise.........

[MiddleFingerMom]

29. Fox Noise -- that's cute and cutting at the same time.

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My point still stands.
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http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/the-v-sign/biography
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The origins aren't as important as the perception -- it does seem to be an
urban legend -- though one held still by many in Great Britain. One theory
is that it the finger amputations were RUMORED to be happening way back in
the Hundred Years War -- thus causing the archers to display their fingers
to the opposing side in a macho "fuck off" type derisive gesture.
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As for Churchill -- see below WHY he stopped using the backward "V-for-Victory"
sign.
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And DO try to stop fixating on your "Fox (ahem) News" theory.
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Though it IS very clever, indeed. It reminds me of the cleverness of Michael
Savage's name-calling.
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By July 1941, the emblematic use of the letter V had spread through occupied Europe,
and on July 19, Winston Churchill put the British government’s stamp of approval on
the V campaign in a speech, from which point he started using the V hand sign.
Early on he used palm in (sometimes with a cigar between the fingers). Later in
the war he used palm out. It is claimed that the aristocratic Churchill made the
change after it was explained to him what it signified to the other classes in Britain.
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[pnorman]

30. So you've quietly downgraded it to an Urban Legend in medieval England.

And that explains why a vaguely similar gesture in the contemporary Mideast means: "Fuck Off!"
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You're in Real Estate, right?
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Psst! I hear that they're hiring over at Fox Noise!

[MiddleFingerMom]

31. Fox Noise IS starting to grow on me. Ditto.

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The source of the belief is not important (though it's a widely-BELIEVED
urban legend).
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The cultural practice is what's important. It's common -- and it's real.
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And what is "vaguely similar" about a reversed "V-for-Victory" sign?
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It is not "vaguely similar". It is the exact same gesture. Vaguely similar
is the kind of spin that your argument would seem to require.
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She may have very well meant "V-for-Victory". But that would necessitate
a presumption. Objective observation suggests "Fuck off" -- which is a
NOT-uncommon attitude towards the West in much of the world... for many
arguably valid reasons.
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But now, you're just arguing a moot point for its moot points ("vaguely
similar", indeed).
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I'll spend no more time on this.
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[pnorman]

32. "BELIEVING IS SEEING"

But I'll be a gentleman, and let you have The Last Word.

[pnorman]

6. Where'd ya hear that?

Fox Noise?

[Exilednight]

7. Go live in the middle-east and you will find out he is right. The other one that is a no no is the

Okay sign.

[tabatha]

10. Media reports from all over the world

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x800534

The last link seems to have the original photo.

[Exilednight]

12. It's a link to a blog, not much of a credible news source. n/t

[tabatha]

14. If the person who took the photo

created the blog, then it is completely credible.

Here is a child showing disgust: (this was also from a blog; are you going to dispute that?)



Critical thinking skills

a) She is showing the V for victory sign that all Libyans are showing.

b) In order for the photographer to take a photo of the flags, she has to not only turn her arm around, but hold it there - you try that

c) Who would go to the painstaking trouble of painting those flags so very nicely on their arm for someone they dislike.

*** AND BTW,

please provide links etc to back your claim. It will FAIL because your claim is nonsense.

[Exilednight]

17. Some blogger claims to have taken the picture. As far as the little girl goes

it's a kid who couldn't tell you the definition of tyranny if they had a dictionary in front of them.

A) it's not the same as the forward facing Vs.

B) She could of shown the flags without making the sign, or using her other hand.

C) Protesters go through painstaking troubles to get a message across.

Edit: If you want to speak of critical thought, then you should try it sometime - and a little about a culture before you go haywire at your keyboard.

[tabatha]

18. big fail

It's a kid who couldn't tell you the definition of tyranny if they had a dictionary in front of them.
---- Fail --- young kids know when they live under tyranny.

A) It's not the same as the forward facing Vs.
---- Fail --- Make the forward facing V with your hand pointing up - where is your forearm pointing? It is pointing toward your face. How do you get your forearm to face toward a person facing you - you turn it round. DUH!

B) She could of shown the flags without making the sign, or using her other hand.
--- Fail --- It is "could have" not "could of". She WANTED to make the "V" sign because she was in a parade thanking the coalition and everyone was showing the "V" sign. (And the rebels always are showing the V sign) So you are saying that because she showed the V sign that she should not have? Big, big fail.

C) Protesters go through painstaking troubles to get a message across.
--- Fail --- Yes, they do, and yes she did.

Edit: If you want to speak of critical thought, then you should try it sometime - and a little about a culture before you go haywire at your keyboard.

--- Fail --- It is obvious from the above that you have not.

[Exilednight]

19. Whatever dude. You just showed your true colors. Have a good life. n/t

[tabatha]

20. What true colors?

I support all uprisings against tyrants - in South Africa (living there), in Tunisia and in Egypt.

Those ARE my true colors and I am proud of them.

BTW, my hero Desmond Tutu supports the Libyan rebels as well. Google it.

[tabatha]

23. I'd love to see the dissing of this photo.

[MiddleFingerMom]

26. A photo so nice, you posted it twice.

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That makes TWO pro-U.N. signs in that demonstration.
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No... WAIT!!! Let me think about that.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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[MiddleFingerMom]

13. Look -- it's repeated so it must be true.

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Abbie Hoffman shows a victory gesture during a demonstration about the Viet Nam war:
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Abbie Hoffman shows a victory gesture during a demonstration about the Viet Nam war:
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Abbie Hoffman shows a victory gesture during a demonstration about the Viet Nam war:
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Abbie Hoffman shows a victory gesture during a demonstration about the Viet Nam war:
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[tabatha]

15. Can you count?

That is just ONE finger.

[Shagbark Hickory]

27. Wow. All these messages yet only one (now two) reply! Tried to rec but too late.