You just don't know....

[tpsbmam]

Oh, crap. Another post about the nastiness on DU. Geez, give it a rest, get a life, develop a thicker skin, it's only a message board why the hell do people go on and on about this crap and feel the need to post constantly about this bullshit?

Here's why. I've said it before and I'll say it again: you don't know what is going on with the person on the receiving end of your barbs. I've seen a few posts here lately where people have indicated they've felt stupid based on the responses they get here. They've probably felt stupid because they've been told they're stupid.

You have no fucking idea what is going on with the person you're putting down!

I'll use me as an example since it has, indeed, affected me recently. I have multiple sclerosis. I can no longer work due to the MS. It has nothing to do with my physical limits, which have me in a wheelchair or a walker for short distances. It has everything to do with (a) the overwhelming fatigue I experience everyday and, more importantly, (b) the cognitive challenges MS has inflicted on me.

I have a Ph.D. In college, I graduated 4th in a class of about 750. I had academic awards out the wazoo -- Phi Beta Kappa, honor societies in my specialty, honors within the college, student of the year by the professional association in my state, blah blah blah. I returned to grad school later in life and was immediately diagnosed with MS about 3 months after starting. I persisted and thrived -- I was, again, a leading student throughout grad school and I worked half-time in my profession through all of those years. I struggled with the MS, but I persisted. I went to work in my field and then.....

MS totally kicked my ass.

The really devastating process for me has been the cognitive changes. A once flexible, sharp, sponge-like mind has become blunted in ways that cut me to the quick. My memory is impaired, very basic attention & concentration are impaired, organizational abilities are impaired....very basic and higher level cognitive functions have all been affected. I do my best here but I know that I'm nowhere near as sharp as I used to be or as I want to be.

My emotions are also now guided in part by my psychological makeup and in part by my disease. I'm emotionally labile and prone to depression. I was prone to depression prior to the MS -- it's now more situational than it is constitutional and the lability is almost all due to MS. I do my best to keep a positive attitude & not let everything get to me. Sometimes it works, other times not so much. On top of the MS, my kidneys are now failing. That's added to the pressures I feel.

The past 3 months have been horrible for me. Nothing spectacular happened -- it was a thousand little cuts. I don't usually feel "disabled." I did in the last 3 months. These were some of the little cuts. I went to renew my license (using my walker so I didn't look quite as impaired) and had to take a road test due to my disability. I have a spotless driving record -- been driving for 37 years, never had an accident & had one speeding ticket about 20 years ago. I was suddenly faced with the possibility that this asshole (he was) next to me could deny me driving privileges! I live in a rural area -- it would have been a devastating loss. I passed & my neurologist then had to give me medical clearance, a first for me.

I volunteered at my Democratic headquarters before the election. I had difficulty doing even a simple task: data entry. I was fine once I got the hang of it but had to go back to the guy who instructed us a couple of times for reminders about how to do this very simple task and finally got him to write everything down for me. I was entering data next to someone else -- it took me twice as long to enter the same amount of data. I left there with a fresh and fierce awakening about the degree of my cognitive slippage. I was pretty sorrowful after that -- it really hit me hard. I missed two appointments because I hadn't gotten reminder calls and I was so disorganized I hadn't recorded them when I got them and set up reminders for myself. I now set up reminders for most things -- not doing so usually means I'll forget. If I forget to put the appointments in my computer calendar and set reminders immediately when I get appointments, I'm doomed if I don't get a reminder call. There were other incidents like these all of which pointed to the cognitive problems I now have.

It was during this time that I came to DU and a DUer got snarky with me. The DUer called me all kinds of things that boiled down to me being stupid & clueless.

I didn't have a hard shell right then. My shell had not only been cracked, it was starting to shatter during that period of time. And this DUer took a hammer to what was left of my shell and whacked at it, making sure to shatter it more.

I've had quite a few crying spells over this period of time. Not weepy spells -- sobbing, gut-wrenching, existential cries. One of them happened after that encounter on DU. I know the person was just being an asshole and it says more about the individual than it does about me. At the time, it didn't matter -- I had just one more confirmation that my once fabulous brain was failing. And, frankly, I still maintain the individual's argument was dead wrong. That didn't matter either at the time. My world was coming crashing down again and it didn't take much to push me over my temporarily very limited limits.

I stopped posting that day and retreated to playing games on the computer, the ones I play daily to exercise my brain. It was what I could find at the time to distract me and keep me from obsessing over the comments made to me and my perception that it was just further confirmation of my deficits.

I'm better this week. This week. God only knows what will happen down the road, but right now I'm good to go. And I want those of you who sling your nasty cracks at people know that you may, indeed, be doing damage. You have no fucking idea what the person you're responding to is going through, has gone through or will be going through.

You have no idea if the person you've just hit with a spelling or grammar snark has struggled with a learning disability all his or her life. The same is true of a reading comprehension snark. You have no clue if the person you're calling stupid had some shit of a parent who made the individual believe that about him/herself and you've just dug another few divots out of the person's soul and fragile self-esteem. What if the person on the receiving end of your nastiness is, like me, feeling incredibly fragile but, unlike me, is suicidal and it won't take much to push that person over that edge (yes, sometimes it can be that one little thing that adds to all of the others that pushes someone that far)? How superior would you feel if a family member posted and you realized that the person you treated like shit at 9 p.m. had killed him/herself at 1 a.m.? Did you "cause" the suicide? No. Might it have been possible that engaging the the individual in a different way might have made it possible for that person to get through one more night? It might.

God, think about what the hell you're doing when you treat other people the way that some DUers treat others here. One of the reasons I love progressives is that we care about people and want our country to care about them. We strive to get our country to care enough to provide medical care, mental health care, food and shelter, support for people with cognitive & physical disabilities, and so much more.

But for too many, that doesn't translate into how we treat individuals, often here or in "real" life (I call it 3-D life). Know that you are posting to people who have the whole huge spectrum of human strengths, frailties, disabilities, living situations, lifestyles and lives. Do you want to be part of chipping away at people's souls? If you do, keep doing what you're doing. If not, think before you type and say what you have to say without the snark & personal attacks.

If you've read this far, thanks. This is too long but I had to get it off my chest!

[driver8]

1. A very powerful post...

Thank you for this.

I have been spending less and less time at DU because it just isn't fun anymore. I wish some people would think before they type.

I am sorry to hear about your MS. A family friend was diagnosed last year and he is having a tough time.

[tpsbmam]

3. Thank you, driver8. I'm sorry about your friend. I was lucky enough to do pretty

well for many years after I was diagnosed. I've now been diagnosed for 24 years and it wasn't until the last 6 that the disease really kicked my ass and made it impossible to work. Breaks my heart as I loved what I did. But I got those 18 years -- lots don't. I hope your friend is able to find his/her way through to making the best kind of life possible for him/herself.

[Mojorabbit]

16. I have had MS about the same amt of time

My biggest prob is the fatigue but I had to stop driving in the 80's due to slow reflexes. Sending you a big hug. I never plan anything more than a couple of days ahead as I never know what I will wake up to.

[tpsbmam]

26. As my best friend used to say:

"That's bucket of suck!" The fatigue is a SOB. I managed to work as long as I did by being up front and honest with potential employers. Though I wasn't legally obligated to do so, I always told them up front that I had MS. I then told them that I needed to nap at lunchtime -- I got good at inhaling food in 5 minutes and taking 45 to nap. I just wanted it to be known before they hired me (if they hired me) so it wasn't an issue. As far as I know, it never cost me a job. In the past 6-8 years, though, even that wasn't enough.

My neurologist put me on Nuvigil about 3 months ago. OMG! I have, at various times, been on amantadine, cylert, ritalin, and something else I can't remember. They all kind of worked a little for awhile but then all stopped working after I'd been on them for a few months. But Nuvigil...holy shit! I can actually function during the day! If it weren't for the cognitive problems I'd be back at work thanks to Nuvigil. As it is, it makes it so I'm not crashing 1/2 hour after I get up! Without it I crash many times a day -- there isn't enough coffee in the world to keep me awake. Just wanted to pass that along if it's a possibility for you.

FYI, it's one of those meds that is ridiculously expensive -- about $250/month. I can't afford it and don't have any prescription coverage. I get it free through the company -- easy application and bingo. I'm guaranteed for a year -- hopefully longer if I keep applying. (I also get Avonex & Aricept for memory the same way. It's about $1500 of free meds per month.)

I have to admit the driving thing would make me crazy. I hope you're in a situation with lots of public and/or disabled transportation available or you have a good support system of people who can do the driving for you.

:hug:

[supernova]

2. Aww, my heart goes out to you

:hug:

I don't post much about my travails and I don't have MS. I've had other worries these past years. But I hear you about feeling frail and not confident somedays.

You have my empathy.

[tpsbmam]

4. Thanks, supernova. Doesn't matter what the troubles are.....

we all have them in varying degrees. Feeling frail and unsure of oneself can happen to any of us for an infinite variety of reasons. My heart goes out to you. You, also, have my empathy.

:hug:

[Mark D.]

103. My Heart Too

I wish you and everyone here with MS the best. There still doesn't seem to be an easy answer. I'm no doctor, I don't have MS, but I would recommend anyone who does Google "Liberation Therapy". This is very controversial, it says narrowing of the blood vessels to the brain cause MS for most. I am not saying it is true. I'm not endorsing it, just that you may want to read up on that new possibility.

[tpsbmam]

5. I hope to be present and respond later should folks answer this.

Right now I have to get my ass out of here to go get yet more blood drawn in anticipation of my nephrology appointment next week. BTW, I have two fabulous specialists (a nephrologist & a neurologist) who treat me for free. Now THAT'S a definite plus in my life!!

[AndrewP]

6. Well said. Best wishes on your health.

I get defensive and snarky myself. But you are right, it's not a good trait and it's one I'm TRYING hard to be better about.

Liberals are supposed to care about each other.

:toast:

[tpsbmam]

27. Thank you, Andrew

It's sometimes difficult not to. I have found myself a couple of times lately snapping back at people when they've been snarky to me. Rather than ignore it and sticking to the topic at hand, I've snapped back.

You know, so many of us have so much shit going down in our lives these days, I know that it's easy to get testy and let our snark get the better of us.

I just think it'd be nice if we could come here to vent our frustrations with each other and not at each other.

:hug:

[bobbolink]

39. Of course we snap back, especially if an alert is ignored.

Many of us have been victims of bullies, and to be expected to swallow more is just unreasonable, to say the least.

I have tried to point out that many here have been abused wives, and to expect us to keep taking more of the same shit we got for years.... and painfully left a marriage because of.... that is just ridiculous. But, it doesn't seem to get through to those who should be listening.

[DCKit]

7. There are quite a few bullies on DU.

Far too many do little else than create controversy where none is needed. They're looking for easy marks or a fallacious argument.

An abusive family has taught me to let it roll right off and defend myself only where appropriate and worthy of my time. Often, I don't even bother, letting their dickishness speak for itself, out there for all to see. Many times, just letting asinine comments on DU stand on their own (without muddying up the waters by attempting to justify any position I might take to defend my position) is far more satisfying.

I feel for you, but an attitude adjustment might be in order. You can take away their power by refusing to play their game, their way.

[tpsbmam]

29. I completely agree, DCKit.

Just understand that, even with normally great defenses and coping skills, there will be times in people's lives when it's tough to muster those. I worked in hospitals for many years and saw many patients struggle, regress, temporarily lose it, fold under the pressure....even those of us with normally adequate defenses and coping skills have our times where those waiver and we're more vulnerable. And most of us can then rally and gather all of our needed defenses around us. Some have more difficulty doing that. But there will be times for lots of us when we simply can't handle the snark when it's directed at us!

[DCKit]

37. Then I might remind you of your own OP... You don't know my circumstances.

But I'm not going to spill the beans, either. I have no interest in being a victim, or portraying myself as a victim. Especially since I don't feel like a victim of anything but my own (innumerable) failings and general laziness.

What I was trying to get across is each of our responsibilities to deal with assholes by not playing the game on their terms.

Learn to argue, or ignore the argument when it's simply a trap. THAT's what pisses them off.

[tpsbmam]

38. Going to have to agree to disagree.

I can do that most of the time but not all the time. Some people can't do it most of the time. I'm not going to devalue anyone and I'll err on the side of trying to treat everyone with respect & dignity.

[Divernan]

72. We all have our limits.

Fortunately for you, you have not been pushed to yours yet.

I had a dear friend who suffered from manic-depression. When he was in his 60's he had some particularly bad depressive episodes and started talking about suicide. I talked to a clinical psychologist/friend about whether to let one of my friend's out-of-town, adult kids know what was going on. At one point I said to the psychologist that perhaps I was over-reacting. After all, my friend had been through depressive episodes before, and never committed suicide.

The psychologist told me in no uncertain terms that EVERYONE has limits, and it was a mistake to assume that just because my friend had survived his depression before, that he would not commit suicide now or at some later point.

I found that advice to apply to many situations in life other than suicide. When we recognize we've reached our limits, we get divorced, or quit jobs, or cut off Bush-enthusiast old friends or relatives, or stop being pushovers to manipulative "friends".

[Paper Roses]

8. Thanks for your post. So many here do not think before we charge in.

The way you express yourself would never indicate to anyone of us that you are suffering such a severe, life altering illness. You are to be commended and I hope we all learn a lesson from your post.
We should all be more civil to one-another. Life is complicated enough without adding on-line disputes.

[tpsbmam]

32. Thank you so much, Paper Roses.

Your comments made my evening!

:hi: :hug:

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. LOL!!!..... sorry I really don't your posts

hope I'm not one of those your anger is directed to

You write better than me .........

[asdjrocky]

10. You should see this-

http://www.safeaccessnow.org/article.php?id=4558

Medical cannabis is helping with people's MS symptoms, I know two personally. I looked at your profile and noticed you are in NC, and you should know there are medical cannabis states not far from you.

I hope it helps, and good luck to you.

[tpsbmam]

40. Thanks!

Yeah, I'm pretty up on most MS stuff and definitely on medical marijuana. I was a proponent long before I needed it. I'm actually an incredibly square person when it comes to marijuana. I'm a child of the 60's & 70's. Despite the fact that most of my friends smoked marijuana fairly regularly when we were in high school, I smoked it about 5 times. For me, it did little more than make me lethargic, eat half the kitchen and then go to sleep. It had a better effect on most of my friends. I finally gave up -- as much as I wanted to be cool, it just didn't do anything for me. And I discovered I could be cool anyway. :P

Now that I'm dealing with spasms, I'm desperate for medical marijuana! I take 2 anti-spasm medications regularly and a 3rd as needed (when it gets really bad) and it still doesn't completely stop the spasms. It's better, but I get a fair amount breaking through. I suspect marijuana might help -- at that point, I'd be delighted to just get lethargic & sleep!

I won't do it illegally for a number of reasons. The one state initiative we had went nowhere and we've now been taken over by Republicans. My greatest hope are in things like the new trade association -- Republicans understand & appreciate one thing: money. I keep checking to find active groups in NC -- we need to get cracking on getting a bill going again. I'm no longer in a position to start up anything here, but I'll keep pushing for the fight and will do what I can to add to it!

[Hannah Bell]

11. kr

[treestar]

12. WTF?

Of course we don't know! And of course we don't know if any claims are true (I'm in the military, I'm this and I'm that). And it does not matter one whit to the issue. It's just emotional blackmail (I am in condition X, so if issue Y applies to condition X, you'd better agree with me or I can accuse you of being mean to poor me who has condition X).

If people can't deal with disagreement, the internet is no place for them. Interacting with real people is much to be preferred. There, it is much harder to disagree and condition X is much more provable.

[asdjrocky]

13. Well bless your heart. nt

[unapatriciated]

81. I remember that line from somewhere else and

join you in your blessings ;)

[guruoo]

14. Sorry about that...

We really didn't mean to ignore you.

[prolesunited]

15. Nobobdy was saying you have to agree with them

as part of some kind of emotional blackmail scheme. They were asking for a little kindness, compassion and humanity in replying to others. You can disagree without being ugly. Something you obviously haven't learned.

[bobbolink]

41. Kindness? Compassion? Humanity? Here?

sigh.....

For a growing percentage of the population, being able to hurt someone is now a badge of honor.

[pipi_k]

46. I think you're right, unfortunately...

For some, it probably is a badge of honor.

For others, I think it might just reflect the amount of inner pain they have that has nowhere else to go except onto someone else.

It would be nice if we could tell the difference so we could tell how to react to either one. I know I'm much less likely to be an ass in return if I know that someone is being a shit to me because they have something awful going on I don't know about. It would be nice to take the high road in either case, but I haven't quite learned how to do that yet...

[lunatica]

17. You obviously forgot to post the sarcasm gif, right?

It seems you really fear being duped into believing something lest you might actually show kindness which is something you seem to consider a weakness. Isit easier to just assume you're being lied to?

[tpsbmam]

24. That's exactly my point, Treestar.

You don't know. Most people aren't going to tell you what's going on with them -- they're here posting about political (and other) stuff, not about themselves.

What you should know/get/understand is that you have no idea who the person is who you're being snarky to. DU is a huge forum. People come here because of a mutual interest in discussing issues with other Democrats. Given the size of DU, I can guarantee that there is a very wide spectrum of people here. I can guarantee that you will, at times on DU, be posting to someone who has some of the kind of difficulties in my OP.

Your choice then becomes continuing to be snarky and don't give a damn about how it affects other people. Or realize that your interactions have the ability to truly hurt another person and leave the snark out.

Is it so difficult to disagree and discuss without putting someone down? Really?

I'm not talking about disagreement -- disagreement has zero to do with my post. I'm talking about putting other people down, about being nasty to them.

Do you seriously need an individual to prove to you that they have problems before you can disagree with them without insulting them?

[pipi_k]

36. Nobody said everyone has to agree

But, you know, it IS possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

Without calling someone a nasty name or implying that they're stupid...need to educate themselves...need to learn reading comprehension...or that they're bad people for decisions they made 10, 20, or more years ago.

I've had one or two DUers say they were going to put me on "ignore" simply because they didn't like a parenting decision I made over 25 years ago. WTF????


I've had people disagree with me in very respectful ways here, and I've also been assaulted by people who wouldn't know basic respect for others if it jumped up and hit them in the face.


Be civil...that's all the OP is asking of everyone...and I agree.

[dana_b]

51. um... we ARE real people

Just because we have fake names, doesn't mean that we aren't real. Or should we have to prove that?
The OP is right - disagreement is fine but there's no reason to be a cold hearted jerk and there is a lot of that here on DU.

[LanternWaste]

89. I think you're conflating incivility with disagreement....

I think you're conflating incivility with disagreement. The one is not predicated on the other.

[Pacifist Patriot]

93. You are absolutely missing the point.

Disagreement is one thing.

Treating people rudely is quite another.

[lunatica]

18. Plain good manners would dictate that people be decent right off the bat

Please ignore the bullies. Just ignore the people who want to make you feel stupid. They're obviously immature and angry at the world. Don't let another person's faults reflect on you. They're easy to spot, because they deliberately attack and belittle.

For myself, I will take your recommendation to heart and try much harder to be kind all the time.

[tpsbmam]

44. Thanks, lunatica.

I think that's all we can really do -- do our best to be kind to others. As my fabulous high school headmistress said, never exit a room leaving someone feeling smaller than when you entered the room. We can disagree vociferously without the put-downs!


:hug:

[Pathwalker]

19. I'm so sorry that happened to you. DU can be a very cruel place.

Some posters think their nastiness makes them cool, but they're just your every day assholes. That's why we have the ignore feature.
I wish you well in your journey, and strength equal to your challenges. :hi:
:hug: :hug: :hug:

[me b zola]

20. Recommended

I have been both the dick and the recipient of dickish behavior. I have worked on becoming a better member of the community, I believe that I have made at least some progress. Your OP really echoed the lessons that my mother instilled in me: the golden rule, walk a mile in someone else's shoes, and you don't know what someone else is going through. I am a work in progress and sometimes I don't live up to the values that I hold dear.


I am so sorry that you are living with MS. I understand the loss that you described in your OP. My ailment is much less severe than yours, yet living with Rheumatoid Arthritis I am dealing with the loss of how my body used to function (I really loved how agile, strong, and graceful I was) and learning to live in almost constant pain. I hope that you have supportive people in your life that know and remember how you were before MS and comfort you as you mourn the loss that MS brings you.

Please don't stop posting because someone lashes out without thinking.

[WilliamPitt]

21. My wife has MS.

And you are spot-on. I've been guilty of what you describe plenty of times. Yours is the best reason in the world to never behave that way again.

:hug:

[tpsbmam]

50. Thanks, Will.

Didn't know your wife has MS. My heart goes out to both of you -- it's a sucky disease to deal with. Thanks for the kind words.

:hug:

[PufPuf23]

22. DUers should be kind to another but the forum is populated by too many assholes.

Feel for you (my situation is similar but not as severe).

DUers would be better off loving one another and bashing our pols and the wealthy and priviledged that have drove the country and world into a ditch.

[tpsbmam]

53. Amen!

Don't compare your situation to anyone else's. So many of us have so much crap in our lives right now I guess the best we can do on a forum is try to be at least respectful of each other if not kind and to understand that we all have that crap in our lives that we're having to deal with. (Oy, did that even make sense? I'm half asleep!)

:hug:

[JonLP24]

23. K&R

I agree completely!!

[Uncle Joe]

25. Kicked and recommended.

Peace to you, tpsbmam.:thumbsup:

[tpsbmam]

56. Thanks, Uncle Joe.

:hug:

[uppityperson]

28. k&r and best wishes to you

[suffragette]

30. .

:hug:

[Number23]

31. It all boils down to plain, old fashioned good manners and home training.

I agree with your post. And as someone who recently had a baby, I completely understand what you mean about not being as quick as you used to be. Though my baby brain will go away (hopefully soon), I feel great sympathy for you with what you've described regarding your MS.

[tpsbmam]

57. Thanks Number23

Here's hoping baby brain goes away ASAP! Ahhh, but look at the reward....congratulations!

:hug:

[davidthegnome]

33. Good post

You're absolutely right. I need to be more considerate myself - some times, I lose the bigger picture by getting too caught up in the details. I don't despise or hate or wish any pain on those I disagree with.

[tpsbmam]

58. Good way of framing it...

losing the bigger picture & getting lost in the details. I like that.

:hug:

[quinnox]

34. I hear ya, but its the nature of the beast

I don't tend to respond to the really nasty posts aimed my way, and they usually get deleted anyway. But that doesn't mean I don't get mad occasionally, and on the rare occasion I will respond in kind to what I consider to be way over the top nastiness.

But I think its just something to accept, there are going to be jerks and obnoxious people here like in every other place on the internet. But they are a minority, and they can usually be ignored (either literally with the DU ignore feature or figuratively).

Anyway, good attempt at making people think twice about what they might post, but its kind of like trying to change human nature, its not going to happen.

Side comment: I always remember that no matter how bad you think you have it, there are others experiencing far worse. Like being in a war zone, or so poor they are starving and so on. Its best to look on the bright side methinks.

[tpsbmam]

61. Don't know if I'll ever really accept it....

But that's me. I don't accept it in 3-D life either. I don't hesitate to stand up to bullies, particularly when they're going after someone who appears to be shrinking from their verbal attacks. It's just part of who I am and always has been. And I try to keep my standards high when it comes to myself. Believe me, I've disappointed myself many times but I shoot for high standards. I'm not above trying to get the people around me to raise their standards when it comes to treating other people just with basic decency.

Believe me, I know I have it GREAT compared to tons of people in this world. Just last night I was whining to myself because it was so cold in my house -- I'm trying to keep the heat REALLY low this winter due to $$$ and it was damn cold in here (the outside temp was about 15 degrees). Man, it took me about a nanosecond to kick myself in the ass and STFU when I thought about all of the people who don't have a roof over their heads, a bed, a bathroom, even barely adequate heat...I'm damn lucky and I know it.

[DinahMoeHum]

35. I was out of DU for most of the 1st half of this year, tpsbmam. . .

due to health issues. PM me if you want to talk further.

Love that PIISD ad, btw.

:hug:

[Texasgal]

42. I agree

I rarely post anymore. I am not as politically savvy as many here, but I do have an opinion and would appreciate not being beat down intellectually. I am an ordinary American with concerns just like anybody else.

I am so sorry that you had to post this. It's really come to that around here.

[tpsbmam]

63. And I hope you'll feel freer to come around more, Texasgal.

Know that we all have different levels of abilities, educations, political knowledge, history, etc. I appreciate the people around here who really do educate -- I learn lots from coming here. I may not remember 8/10ths of it anymore, but I appreciate it. I grew up in a family where politics was discussed A LOT. I was a pretty politically active teenager. But I grew up and my time was spent getting an education in my field and working in my field as long as I could. I didn't have much time for politics beyond voting in every election. Every ounce of energy I had was expended at work -- I spent most of my time when I wasn't working sleeping off the exhaustion. So I'm definitely not as up on political history and nuances as some of the people around here. Doesn't matter. My opinion counts and so does yours. Every single voice here deserves to be heard and treated respectfully.

And I learn not just from those who have scads of political savvy. I'm learning from you right now and hate what I'm hearing. It's not the first time I've heard it and I'm sure it won't be the last. I'm hearing hurt and I want you to know that there is a decent DU who don't put others down and who share your feelings.


:hug:

[bobbolink]

43. I hope your post has an effect on people. Sadly, I doubt it. DU has taught me to be much more

cynical about the goodness of people.

One thing I will disagree with you on..... I don't believe that being "tough" has any positive value.

In fact, I would argue that being tough has CREATED a lot of what you are describing. "Learning to take it" is, in fact, what abused wives do, and I fail to see that as a good thing.

The big problem in this society is that we abhor sensitivity.. it is a BAD word. So, of course, we are going to be an insensitive people.

That is NOT my goal, and never will be. As a musician and I were talking about this today, we just won't let the society win, and give up that valued part of ourselves.

You mileage, from what you say, differs. That is fine, but what I ask is that you not put that on those of us who want to keep that sensitive and vulnerable part of ourselves, and reject the push to be "TOUGH".

[tpsbmam]

47. Oh man, powerful!

You're absolutely right. I find, for me, that I need a mix. I need the toughness and the tenderness.

I was the softie in my family -- I was the sensitive one, the one who wanted to help everyone, the one who cried easily. Mom & Dad were tried and true WASPS of that generation. Many who I knew, as well as my parents, really hated what they saw as weakness -- pretty much crying & being sensitive. (I thanked god for my grandmother, my greatest cheerleader.) I was never really able to talk to Dad about much; Mom & I had conversations about it as adults. More than once, I told Mom she was "pitiful & pathetic" when it came to showing sadness. It was only about 10 hours after Dad died that an old family friend called. Mom answered the phone and started crying when she heard his voice. She handed me the phone, I talked to him and after we'd hung up I tried to reassure her because she was literally frustrated with herself for crying! "Mom, it's normal. Dad only died 10 hours ago. You have to let yourself feel the emotions and know they're all fine. It's normal Mom." Mom: "Don't want to be normal. Refuse to be normal." That was one of the times I told her she was pitiful & pathetic. We'd discussed it enough that it gave us both a good laugh when I said it.

Believe me, I appreciate the sensitive & vulnerable -- I, too, never want to lose it. And I appreciate my mother for giving me some of the toughness I needed to counterbalance my sensitive & vulnerable self. I definitely get & appreciate your perspective here.

:hug:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tpsbmam]

49. That was between Mom and me...

and it was a banter that made HER comfortable. She was the one who was uncomfortable with her emotions but she was comfortable with humor. It worked in the context of that relationship, it doesn't work in the context of others.

I do appreciate what you have to say and what you said here. I would hope in the future if you have a personal issue with me that you'd take it up personally. Your choice though. Your criticism is fair enough.

Doing that actually made Mom feel better and given the previous serious, deep discussions we'd had about the issue, it was the absolute appropriate response FOR HER and one that brought her back to HER comfort zone at a time when she needed help getting there. And, though it's not yours, that was HER comfort zone -- banter, humor, gentle teasing.

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. I got what you were saying.

It's virtually impossible to convey the nuance of personal conversations in writing because of the personal histories involved. Words that are perfectly innocent can look dreadful in writing.

A little off the subject, but I'm reminded of a time one of my friends chanced upon an open email at work that said, "Yeah, I'm probably going to end up killing myself." and absolutely flipped out. Racing straight to HR! Turns out the conversation had originated when the writer had told a friend he was getting a motorcycle. The other person had been making fun of his natural clumsiness and accident-prone history. He was NOT on his way to go buy a length of rope and find a rickety chair.

[jillan]

45. Wonderful post!! Thank you for sharing. Alot of people on this board have their own

personal story & it is ridiculous how a complete stranger can feel they have the right to belittle another stranger.


:hug:

[dana_b]

52. thank you for this post

and I will try to remember that myself.

[Starry Messenger]

54. k&r

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cloudbase]

59. DU

[YvonneCa]

60. One of the best posts I've read here recently. Thank...

...you for sharing your story. You make the case for more empathy here at DU. We...and the rest of the world...could really use empathy. :grouphug:

[political_Dem]

62. K and R. Take care.

:hug:

[tpsbmam]

64. Thank you to all and to all I missed responding to

I'll try to PM you tomorrow with my thanks. Such lovely posts -- I'm truly touched. I HAVE to go to bed -- I'm exhausted and have a doctor's appointment early tomorrow. No, not me -- I have a wonderful dog who has an ear infection. My gentle, loving dog turns into Cujo when it comes to ear drops. The vet is going to pack her ear in the morning. Yeah, because I have so much disposable income, Cujo! :banghead: :eyes:

:grouphug:

[snooper2]

65. Jesus H. Fucking Christ..

Seriously,

It's the intertubes.

I've posted these links before. If you are on the Internet for any kind of emotional needs, you probably have a problem.

Here..

http://www.netaddiction.com/

http://www.netaddiction.com/index.php?option=com_bfquiz&view=onepage&catid=46&Itemid=106

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=3832

http://www.internetaddictionhelp.com/

and just so everyone reading this does smile...

Here are ===========


a cwazy baby



an idiot driver








and,





a




squirrel - Because, who doesn't love a squirrel? Shit, even Hannibal Lector wouldn't eat a squirrel!



http://duncraft.atom5.com/files/squirrel(1).jpg

[Pacifist Patriot]

83. But those who are on the internet for other reasons...

don't deserve to be treated like garbage either. You don't have to have emotional problems to feel mistreated here or anywhere else on the internet. I'm fairly certain I'm a stable and intelligent person and I got really annoyed recently when a snarky git told me to Google some information I asked for rather than just help me with the answer. You can't tell me the phrase, "You do know Google is your friend, right?" isn't unnecessarily snarky.

I think that has to be one of my hot buttons around here. Some of us don't have time to comb the web looking for the information we are interested in and assume someone here with the knowledge will be willing to help us out. And usually they are. But it doesn't take long for someone to come along and accuse you of laziness and stupidity when they could just as easily refrain from responding at all.

And goodness help those who post erroneous information in good faith. Rather than simply being corrected they get their heads handed to them. That too happened to me recently. I was perfectly happy to be corrected and actually appreciated having the record set straight because I do not like operating under misconceptions. However, someone else felt the need to jump in and grind me to dust AFTER I had thanked the person above for correcting me. That simply wasn't necessary and is another perfect opportunity to say absolutely nothing at all.

I wonder if people use the excuse of anonymity to turn into complete jerks just because they can.

[bobbolink]

90. I can really relate to what you are saying. I know that people want to excuse it as "anonymity",

what what I have observed for years now is the constantly growing percentage of people who take delight in hurting others. It is done with the sole purpose of hurting another in order to feel and look superior.

Then being told to "grow a skin" is grinding salt in the wound. Letting bullies get away with bullying only encourages them to continue -- AND increases the amount of toxicity in our daily lives.

We are increasingly a sociopathic society, and it seems to me that the majority of people like it that way.

[Pacifist Patriot]

92. I think the "anonymity" of the internet is really a lack of social pressure to conform to....

accepted standards of behavior. If someone is mean, sarcastic and unhelpful in a face-to-face group they risk being temporarily shunned or permanently banished from the community. It is in their best interest to behave at a minimum level of civility if they want to continue to interact.

We don't seem to do that on internet forums. Yes, people who violate a TOS are banned or tombstoned, but that rarely takes into account general rudeness that wouldn't go unpunished in an off-line social setting. We are apt to be more confrontational in our responses to bullies on-line which feeds the beast. Where in person, we are more likely to avoid confrontation and ignore them which provides them with no audience for their antics.

So in essence, all of us are in some respect to blame. We can more successfully "ignore trolls" in person than we can on-line despite lack of attention being our best way to raise the overall level of discourse in the long run.

[bobbolink]

95. That wasn't my point at all.

To put it more bluntly... I am tired of the constant repeating of that same mantra.. that it is only online "anonymity".

OK?

What I am saying is that online is only a continuation and symptom of what is happening in real life.

We are more and more a sociopathic society.

OK? Can you hear me say now that I'm talking about how people are all the time?

Maybe its being poor.... being on the bottom of the ladder means that I get the shit more than the rest of you do.

Not that it matters.

[Pacifist Patriot]

97. Wow!

I know that wasn't your point. I was offering my perspective.

Your response is exactly the type of behavior that crosses a line with me in both real life and on the internet. Which may be why I have the longest Ignore list at DU that I've ever had before.

Were you demonstrating a point or being dead serious in the way you phrased your response to me? Because if that is exactly how you intended to treat me, I will tell you it was brutish and I am not going to engage with you further if that is how you intend to interact.

Repeating "OK?" and "can you hear me say now..." are snarky, plain and simple.

[bobbolink]

98. Or, maybe you could hear that it is hurtful to not be HEARD.

[Pacifist Patriot]

114. How is contributing a different perspective not listening to someone?

I didn't say, "that's rubbish" or start talking about milking cows instead. I thought we were having a conversation and was honestly quite surprised when you blew a gasket at a different take on what constitutes the so-called anonymity of the internet.

Interesting thing written discourse between strangers. One person's continuing a conversation is another person's brush off. :shrug:

[Pacifist Patriot]

115. May I ask you a question?

Upon reflection I'm wondering if we are talking about the exact same thing. Perhaps we are or perhaps not.

I am in agreement that our society is sociopathic, but I disagree it is reflected in every single person. We most definitely have a crisis in leadership. The standard of ethics among those in positions of power and/or influence is appallingly low. And I'll lump business, politics, religion, journalism in together on this one. Their behavior is, for the most part, utterly devoid of compassion and in some cases oozing with poison. And yes, this does spill over because leadership by example carries weight. But I think it's manifested in a tolerance of leaders' poor behavior rather than acceptance of such behavior from our peers.

When we're talking about civility among friends, acquaintances, and strangers I can't say I'm seeing any difference from ten, twenty or thirty years ago. I honestly don't see bullying behavior and outright rudeness either tolerated or rewarded when engaged in face to face. I see it rampant on the internet, but not in person. Perhaps I've been fortunate, but the few mean and nasty people I've had the misfortune to encounter were pretty quickly ostracized. And I can't say I've noticed their numbers growing in proportion to my exposure to other people over the years.

Do you believe all of us are meaner than we would have been at an earlier point in time or in a different society?

[KT2000]

66. Good advice for all

internet communication.

[nolabear]

67. Darlin', if this is you in an impaired state

you must be hell on wheels when you're hitting on all cylinders. This is an eloquent, smart, beautiful representation of the human face of the internet.

I was taught that one's true intelligence is measured by the way you live your convictions honestly and forthrightly while treating others with respect and, where necessary, control. Although I understand frustration and blowing off steam when one feels helpless, in my opinion using a sledge hammer where a scalpel will do the job is a sign of being cornered, frightened and rageful. It's sad to see anyone in tht state but it still hurts when you get hit by that hammer.

I don't know that you'll effect change on DU; it's as hard to be reasonable here when people feel threatened as it is in the governing body we all like to rail at, but you can damn well be proud for sticking up for yourself and others so well.

[Oldtimeralso]

68. Proud to be K & R #100

I can certainly relate to you and your problem as I have been a long time sufferer of fibromyalgia. This also has had the affect of chronic fatigue and cognitive impairment.

My employer medically disqualified me from the position that I had held for 34 years. This happened exactly one year to the day that I had anticipated to retire on. I was able to get a disability in a rather quick manner, thus it was a financial setback but not a disaster.

Take care tpsbmam and remember that we do not walk this road alone and need to cover each others back.

[BobTheSubgenius]

70. I have FM as well.

It's not debilitating, but it's limiting, for sure. Apart from PKs for that exquisite little inconvenience, I also take a fair amount of other meds - the aftermath of Staph A infection in my heart, and two subsequent artificial valves to replace the ones that the bacteria destroyed. They leave me even more fatigued and foggy, but at least we seem to have them adjusted so I don't faint when I stand up....umm.....'normally'. I can't say I ever pictured having to rise from a chair in manageable stages.

I know it's not even a fraction of MS, but I flatter myself to think it gives me some insight. A bad day is a bad day indeed...and I can only imagine one of those days writ truly large.

All this to say that my heart aches for the OP in particular, and everyone else struggling with these burdens.

[bobbolink]

96. Yup, it is a real hell, and one that is dismissed as "all in your mind".

For added fun, try having FM and chronic fatigue and being homeless.

A real joy.

Not that it matters.

[JDPriestly]

69. I hope I haven't offended you.

Nobody makes more typos on DU than I do. I just brush off the criticism. We are not here to type perfect posts. It's whether what we say makes sense and whether it is sincere that counts.

We are all here to learn and to share.

We are a community. Thanks for being part of DU. Don't let anyone scare you away.

[Raine]

71. THANK YOU for this well spoken reminder

we don't know what others are going thru in their personal and professional lives ... something to keep in mind before giving a quick hurtful reply.

[CitizenLeft]

73. posting on a board can be painful, for sure...

...especially if you're sensitive or are going through a crisis. I don't know if this will help, but I use "ignore" extensively. Not because I don't want to hear dissenting opinions, but because a nasty reply - or even a nasty post to someone else - makes my blood pressure go up. I'm not afraid of debate - I just don't like punitive conflict. And it's not fear of being hurt that stops me, it's the fear of hurting. I have a temper, and I will go off on somebody mercilessly if they hit a hot button, especially if they think they're being cute with their derisive remark. Then the person who insulted me always wonders what made that bomb go off. LOL - words have consequences, and the rudist posters don't get that at all. After I go off, I always wish I hadn't. So, for my own peace of mind, I use ignore to keep my sanity and everybody else's intact. Ignore gets a bad rap - those who are most likely to be nasty and rude are always the ones who ridicule you for using it. Fuck them. Other people don't get to dictate how YOU experience any message board. Save your sanity and put those who would rip you a new one - like me - on ignore. :hi:

I wish you strength and love and the patience to deal with it all. You're way ahead of me! :hug:

[voteearlyvoteoften]

74. Good Morning

Hope you have a good day...and stay warm:)

[tpsbmam]

77. Awwww, thank you voteearlyvoteoften. What a nice way to start the day.

Love the name! Bitter cold here in the mountains of NC -- 9 degrees but supposedly feels like -7! I moved here for a number of reasons, one of them being the temperate climate! Not so much the last couple of winters. But I'm lucky....have a roof over my head, enough heat to make it bearable, a warm bed to sleep in...life is good today!

Just stopped into check the DU front page and off to take my sweet gentle loving dog to the vet so they can deal with her Cujo side when it comes to anything ear-related and pack her infected ear.

Hope you and everyone here has a fantastic day!

:grouphug:

[cate94]

75. Thank you

for a very eloquent post.

[Enthusiast]

76. K&R Wow!

Great OP! After hearing your story I'll take what you have said into consideration and try to curtail my snarkiness.

I wish you all the best in dealing with a very difficult condition.

[seabeyond]

78. i am so glad i came in and read op. i let it pass many times. thank you for the reminder. it is

a reminder important for all of us, in both computer and real life. i am really a nice person and tend to not attack others, then.... well, du has conditioned me. i can be better. do better.

maybe others have more of a challenge

but maybe they have a challenge because i do not know what they have lived, are living and will continue to live. so maybe i will give the ugly comments by people the same consideration you discuss in your post. and not take it personally. because i have had it awfully good. and is easy for me to be nice. it is not that way for all people

thank you

good OP

[crim son]

79. Excellent, thoughtful post.

I don't understand the argument claiming that because this is a message board there is no need to adhere to the rules of normal, decent human intercourse. If anything, more tact and civility is warranted for the reasons the OP makes clear. Instead of suggesting that compassionate participants leave the forum it makes better sense to ask the rude and intolerant to find somewhere else to vent their endless ire. Having a "thick skin" with respect to my political position is a good thing; having to develop that thick skin to deflect personal attacks is not, and if this were grade school, the bullies in question would be expelled.

[tavalon]

80. Thank you for posting this

It's really important during this time in DU's history. It's a tumultuous time here, indeed, and people ought to show a bit of compassion.

[nevergiveup]

82. Thanks for the wonderful post.

[BlueIris]

84. I agree, the climate on this board has become vile.

But I expect a thorough, er, cleansing at the roots soon.

Sorry for all you're going through.

[Bluenorthwest]

85. Lovely post

Well said.

[mrs_p]

86. i agree whole-heartedly

and am sending energy your way, be well.

[Highway61]

87. Thank you for your beautiful post

May it be a wake up call to those who need one. (Ummm... There are a few.) I don't post hardly at all anymore because of the way too many caustic remarks. I was told I needed a thick skin when I joined here...I just don't wear it well, I guess.

You're in my thoughts and prayers. You see, I had Myasthenia Gravis for 4 years when I was a young girl. By experimental surgery at the time, (Thymectomy)and LOTS of physical therapy, I was cured. To me, it was nothing short of a miracle....as there is no real cure when contracted as an adult. (i.e. Aristotle Onasis) So I know what you are going through to a degree.
Bless you tpsbmam, may you do well.

[sirthomas66]

88. Great post. I haven't been here that long, but I read this place for

years. Some people here if they disagree with you, simply start name-calling and other demeaning stuff.

[Irishonly]

91. Bless You

Being disabled is the most dehumanizing affliction that can happen to people. My husband and I are both disabled and this is not the life we envisioned when we first got married. I cried when I read your post and I am sorry someone had to call you names.

I am on my way to see the cardiologist this morning. Evidently, I had a heart attack and didn't know it. It isn't as uncommon as people think when you have neuropathy. My husband won't be able to come with me. He is too depressed and is in too much pain today. I go today to find out how much of my heart is damaged and to see if someone will address this so-called discoloration in my lung. I am scared.

I am a college graduate although you can't tell it by the way I write some days. He worked in R&D and we had a fairly decent life. Illness can destroy your savings as well as your self esteem. I know we are tired of living in fear. It's probably a good thing we have always tried to live simply. With all of the speculation about social security these days my greatest gift would be to stop worrying even if for just one day.

I wish you some joy and happiness today and always. I hope you remember there are many of us sharing the boat you have found discovered you are in-the one that is harder than hell to paddle.

[Tumbulu]

99. What an appropriate post- and so well written

I have gotten 4 of my posts deleted by the moderators because I was trying to stop a person who I thought was using bullying demeaning language to another poster. Mine got deleted, not theirs - so I think that there has been some sort of cultural shift that came along with these boards. And I do not like it. Harsh, cruel and demeaning posts are somewhat acceptable, but when someone else defends the person being attacked- their post is gone. Why?

I feel very much for you, Writing on DU has been part of my "therapy" in getting my self esteem back a tad after numerous problems with my mind functions. I am grateful for your eloquent post.

Thanks.

[Maraya1969]

100. I hate to tell you this but..

Your post was very cogent. It is also obvious that you are an intelligent person and that you write with a very good "beginning middle and end", (I forget what that is called but it means that you are organized). Any difficulty that you may at times is, I am sure dwarfed by the intelligence you have just shown us all.

You also have guts and you care about other people.


The person who needs to approve of you is you. Give yourself a pat on the back for posting this wonderful post.

:hug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. +1 n/t

[femrap]

101. What a great post....

I'll try to ignore those that insult me....well, wait a minute, I have a
H U G E Ignore List!!!

I hope you put those posters that bug you on Ignore....it has made my life much, much better.

I actually think there are people out there who join DU just to bug progressives and/or are paid by such organizations as The Heritage Foundation and Faux News. I bet Murdoch employs thousands to chat.

[onlyadream]

104. I totally agree

I run my life with the old "if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it" rule. I've posted on DU only to have been flamed - called a liar and accused of taking advantage of the homeless - ALL b/c I checked out a short-sale home and was REALLY upset by what I saw. I was shocked by how nasty people got with me and it did affect me in how I now post (which I don't do often b/c I don't want to be upset when assholes start in on me). It's just so easy to say mean things when you're not face to face. I have to admit that I'm disappointed in some people here at DU b/c I thought progressives were on a higher level. I also hate reading posts when the bickering begins - so ridiculous and off topic.

Anyhow, I hope you (the OP) are feeling better, and kudos for you for making a great point!

[OKNancy]

105. I love this post.

I'll just leave it at that, but in my mind I'm saying really nasty things about what DU has become.

[tpsbmam]

106. O.M.G.!

I'm here only briefly because I have one of my own doc appointments to go to shortly.

I truly want to respond to everyone. So many people have shared so much of themselves and reached out so warmly I'm truly, truly touched.

When I actually get to the computer later today I intend to do just that -- respond to everyone! For me, it would be the best part of a great day.

Oy, you guys have me crying again. I really good, heart welling kind of cry.

Thank you all so much. I'm astounded and ever so grateful!



:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[NC_Nurse]

107. I have never understood the people who insist on insulting others on this board.

Seems a lot like the bullies in school to me. The need to puff yourself up by putting others down.

I am so sorry for your illness. MS is a terrible disease. My mother died of Alzheimer's disease two weeks ago and I have just not given enough of a shit to post much here lately. I encourage you to keep reaching out, however, there are some really nice folks here who have been great to me. Put the jerks on ignore. It'll help
you keep your equilibrium. You certainly don't need the stress in your life at present.

Hugs to you.:hug: :grouphug:

[pnwmom]

109. NC_Nurse, sorry to hear about your mother!

:hug:

[NC_Nurse]

112. Thank you, my dear...

:hug:

[Rainbowreflect]

110. I am so sorry for you loss.

:hug:

[NC_Nurse]

113. Thanks. Back at ya...

Been a tough year. :hug:

[Rainbowreflect]

108. Thank you for this important reminder.

I have two siblings with MS and my husband has muscular dystrophy. It breaks my heart when people are make assumptions without knowing someone and/or knowing what they are going through.

[pnwmom]

111. You've made a lot of people think today -- and hopefully remember

your poignant post when tempted to lash out. Thank you for being so willing to share in a positive way. I know you speak for many.

Regarding your personal struggle: I read a book a long time ago by Judith Viorst about adjusting to the challenges that life puts us through. It was called "Necessary Losses." If you haven't read it already, you might like it.

Take care!

:hug:

[Contrary1]

116. Thank you...

From my own personal experience, I can say you are right.

When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I was desperate to find others in a similar situation. I joined an online forum and made a few posts.

For whatever reason, one of the other members chose to respond in a rather nasty manner. I was devastated. I had been looking for support, and found it, many even offered consolation upon reading what she had written to me. But that one single negative response brought me down so hard. I cried for days.

Looking back, I realize now that I probably needed to break down, a release, of sorts; given the gravity of my situation.

But, at that particular moment, I was very vulnerable and didn't see it that way.

Be kind to one another; it's really not too much to ask. And as the OP stated, "You just don't know..."