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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 09:17 PM
Original message
Time for a new Declaration of Independence.
It is time for the working class to rise up and declare their independence from the Plutocracy that has utterly destroyed our Republic. Here is my version. I feel like I may be forgetting some things,so I may edit this later. Let me know what you think.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are created equal, that they are endowed with certain unalienable Rights, that are among these are the right to healthcare no matter their financial status, the right to democratically control control the corporations they work for, for the tyranny of a CEO is as hard to bear as the tyranny of government, the right of senior citizens to enjoy their final years in dignity and comfort, the right of universal education for all in the schools and university of our nation, the right to have a congress that is accountable to them and not to corporations. Government should not be changed for trivial reason, however the current Plutocracy of the United States has reduced us to absolute despotism and serfdom. These conditions are intolerable. Below is our list of grievances with current government of the United States.

The Government of the United States has refused to pass legislation enacting Single-Payer Healthcare, despite the support of the majority of the nation and the grieve need we have for it.
It has refused to end two wars which have drained our resources, killed thousands of soldiers and civilians, and has made us hated around the world. It has also refused to give up the empire it has created in order to fulfill the the capitalist greed of the military industrially complex.
It has allowed corporations to buy legislation and to use reap the benefits of the United States infrastructure while not pay for them and shipping jobs overseas.
It has raided Social Security and now contemplates having it removed.
It has failed to prosecute war criminals who have condoned torture and illegal wars in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States.
It has refused to repeal the Patriot Act, a direct violation of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution.
It has raised taxes on the poor and working classes, while refusing to raise taxes for the rich and cutting social services for those who need them most.
It has refused to prosecute Wall street and instead gave them billions of tax payer money.

Below are our demands to remedy these grievances and our last offer of reconciliation:
We demand that Congress expand Medicare to cover every citizen of the United States.
We demand the prosecution of the George Bush, Dick Cheney, and all who authorized or committed torture, and who lied their way into an the Iraq War.
We demand all Corporations that have over 100 employees be turned over to the control of the worker so that they may run them as co-ops and have full control over them, without being forced into economic slavery at the behest of a CEO.
We demand an end to the empire and the Military Industrial Complex.
We demand a progressive income tax that shall force the wealthy to pay their fair share. Anyone making over 1 million a year, shall be taxed at 90%.
We demand an end to our current election system that forces us to choose between only two parties. We demand that the Congress institute Proportional Representation.
We demand the immediate repeal of the Patriot Act.
We demand Wall Street be prosecuted for their crimes and that all the money they and other corporations have stolen be distributed to the working people.
We demand that all elections be financed by pubic money, so as to prevent the rise of another Plutocracy.
Public and private workers shall have the right to form Unions, strike, and collectively bargain.
We demand that all Representatives of the United States from the President and Congress down be eligible for recall if it is felt that they are not acting in interested of those who elected them.
We demand an end to the Electoral College and demand that all Presidents shall be elected by popular vote.
We demand nationalization of all industries that the people shall determine to be necessary for the public good.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is a start!
No more bullshit!!!!
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Or...
what?
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Revolution if necessary.
How long can we tolerate living as serfs under the heel of capitalism?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. What kind of revolution? n/t
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Recovered Repug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The kind where you sit at your computer
and shout "REVOLUTION!!!!" and perhaps meaner things too.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Oh, gee that was useful. Thanks for the great contribution to this thread.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I would much prefer
Edited on Wed Mar-30-11 10:24 PM by white_wolf
a peaceful revolution like we saw in Egypt, however if we are forced to defend ourselves I would not give in to pacifism. Of course this all hypothetical, but I do think we should organize and march on Washington.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. So, at the end of the day...
the remedy is through the political and electoral process, which, oddly enough, is precisely the remedy we already have.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I would much prefer that, yes.
However I fear our government may be too deeply beholden to corporate money for that to happen.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. And, that's the only problem?
It's far more complicated than that.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. A voluntary "conscious capitalism" revolution!
Where all business owners will suddenly volunteer to give up their profits in favor of fairness and goodwill to all!
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. That would be his plan.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. You might want to let me state my own plan, rather than...
put words in my mouth.

All the same, I think it's funny that others ridicule conscious capitalism and totally discount its adoption, yet, at the same time, somehow believe that companies with 100 employees will magically be turned over to the workers.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I never said i would magically happen..
It will happen because we will pass a law forcing that to happen. I have no faith in corporations to do the right thing,that is why the government must force them to do what is right and enact laws to those ends.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. You realize that law...
even if enacted, would quickly be struck down as unconstitutional, right?

And the Supremes would be right.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. There you go again, SDuderstadt, ruining all the fun with actual facts & verifiable data.
:grr: :cry: :evilfrown:











( :rofl: )
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. The Constitution can and should be amended in that regard.
It is high time the government served the people and not massive corporations.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Maybe it's time to review how...
the Constitution is amended.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. It is done in two ways
By 2/3 vote in both houses of congress and then ratified by the States or via a constitutional convention.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. And the chances of getting an amendment...
as described is precisely zero.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. If we force Congress to enact some of the other provisons
in my text, than an amendment would not be hard to get. The laws requiring all offices to be subject to a recall and public financing are not unconstitutional in anyway. Most of the other provisions aren't as well, however those two are the ones relevant to an amendment.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. The laws requiring all offices to be subject to recall are, on their face...
unconstitutional. Read the sections involving how each house shall be the sole judge of the qualifications of its members.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. Dude, don't water the plants.
Edited on Wed Mar-30-11 11:13 PM by Zorra
;-)
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Yeah....
run away from factual debate. It's more fun that way.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
78. BTW...
Edited on Thu Mar-31-11 04:19 PM by SDuderstadt
I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how the President can amend the United States Code by executive order.
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Thunderstruck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. Bwaaaah-hahahahhahahah! Please tell me you're joking?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Your wish is granted.
I am joking.
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Godhumor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fuck and No.
Absolutely under no circumstances would I support anything like this. Ever.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. So...
You wouldn't support ANY of it? Not even the repeal of the Patriot Act or the prosecuting of the Bush war crimes, or raising taxes on the rich?
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Godhumor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. There's stuff I like in there, but if it was all or nothing, I'd take nothing in a heartbeat n/t
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Fair enough. That's your right.
Just wondering, what don't you like?
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Godhumor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I have absolutely no desire to see a "great socialist experiment" put into action
My most immediate hang-up would be the turning over of businesses to the workers.
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. sounds good to me....
....if we could convince a million people to go to the Capitol in Washington and stay there peacefully until our demands were redressed, things would change....

....if the good people of Egypt can do it, so can we....
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Shiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. If we turn over businesses to the workers...
and the workers want to collectively bargain... with themselves? And they don't give themselves what they want, they'll strike until they give into their own demands?

I'm a little confused... :shrug:
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I should edit that. I meant the collective bargaining for public workers.
Thanks for catching that.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. "the right to democratically control control the corporations they work for"???
Uhh...I'll pass on that.

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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. It has happend before and has been proven to work.
Edited on Wed Mar-30-11 10:42 PM by white_wolf
I made a thread recently giving real life examples. Search "Socialism 101: Examples."
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I don't want a bunch of knobs who can't read a balance sheet running the whole show
Let's just say that it CAN work, but those probably aren't the kinds of companies I'm going to invest in.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Why shouldn't workers control the companies they work for?
It is better than the exploitation they endure otherwise.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. That assumes all workers are...
"exploited".
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The system we currently have is exploitative by its very nature.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Jesus...
here we go again.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Dude, learn what "exploit" means and then tell me that Capitalism is not exploitative.
If you start out being dishonest, how can you expect to be taken seriously when you propose ANYTHING?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Dude...
no offense, but I am just not interested in engaging with you.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Well it is exploitative.
The goal is to make as much money as possible, that will lead to exploitation.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Starting out with overly broad...
generalizations is not likely to lead to purposeful debate.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. It is not overly broad if I am staring the known goals of the system.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Please prove that...n/t
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Look around. See the current state of our country and
you will see that while corporations are posing record profits,people are starving, homeless, out of work. That is exploitation.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. That is hardly the aim of capitalism....
if for no other reason that it makes no sense at all to destroy your market.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. We could argue about this again, but
I think your last thread pretty much made the majority opinion on that issue clear.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. The majority opinion of those...
who chose to participate. Fortunately, definitions are not decided by polls.

In the meantime, tell me how capitalism could survive if its aim was to eliminate its market. How would they prosper with no one to sell goods and services to?
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Okay.
It survives by paying workers the bare minimum wage it can get away, then they must spend that money on necessities need to survive those feeding the system again. Also with the creation of credit cards, it allows consumers to get trapped in endless cycles of debt wherein they buy luxury goods that they cannot afford and then must pay interest to the credit card companies on top of what they paid to the produces of the luxury goods.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. That is absolutely not true...
many companies pay exceleent wages.

Again, overly broad generalizations don't foster meaningful debate.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Do they?
CEOs make millions and all they do is manipulate money, they aren't near as important as the actual workers and are not even necessary as my thread on co-ops shows.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Broad overgeneralizations again...
Edited on Wed Mar-30-11 11:31 PM by SDuderstadt
Perhaps studying the fallacies of composition and division would be of help.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. This is going nowhere.
You won't convince me and I won't convince you.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. It's not going anywhere for a good reason...
Edited on Wed Mar-30-11 11:52 PM by SDuderstadt
the facts are on my side. I can easily be convinced by facts. That would require actual facts. For example, I'd still love to know precisely how capitalism could even survive if its aim is to starve its market.

In the meantime, a number of laws/actions proposed in the OP are unconstitutional on their face.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Do you want to start a new thread on the expoliative nature
of capitalism? I'll be glad to do so or you can than we can see where the facts lie.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. If they are simply going to be overly broad generalizations, then...
no.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Are "overly broad generalizations" defined the same was as you defined "Marxist rhetoric?"
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. No n/t
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. Only too happy to recommend this but it's more than two wars.
Edited on Wed Mar-30-11 10:49 PM by Catherina
It has refused to end two wars which have drained our resources, killed thousands of soldiers and civilians, and has made us hated around the world.

It's more than two wars. Iraq ain't over by a long shot and Yemen, Pakistan, Libya are wars, not to mention our wars by proxy elsewhere. Worse than just war, as if anything could be worse, we, the coca-cola bullshit culture, destroyed an entire civilization as idiots giggle.

Rec'd
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
59. Good point.
Who knows how many secret wars we have.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
32. There's the easy part - posting a semi-plagiarized manifesto anonymously on a discussion board.
Now comes the hard part.

Have fun taking on the 82nd airborne & Co....

:eyes:
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I did say peaceful revolution.
If we are fired on first, than do we really have a free country?
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. You need to listen to your Patrick Henry & your Malcolm X on the notion of a "peaceful revolution."
Such a beast simply doesn't exist - because if it's "peaceful," it ain't a "revolution," but the result of a legal process.

But let's put that factual quibble aside...

Look, dude, when you post something titled "a new declaration of independence," you are staking out rhetorical ground that inherently suggest violent means to achieve political ends - just like the last time a 'declaration of independence' was issued on the North American continent, and we got Bunker Hill, Lexington, Trenton, Saratoga, Valley Forge, Yorktown & all the rest.

Either you stand behind your OP, or you don't. If you don't, you should alter the title to reflect something other than a "new declaration of independence," or ask the mods to lock it. :thumbsup:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. BTW, I read over your OP again: no where did I see the word "peaceful." Just sayin'. n/t.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #47
71. I said it in other posts in this thread.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. Can I sign it? Here:
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
50. I like this idea better than the new constitutional convention.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. When we have a country that elects teabaggers
constitutional conventions scare me.
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The Nexus Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #50
75. Gotta disagree.....
I firmly believe the constitution, in its current form, is outdated with no clarity of the modern times the fore fathers could never predict. They never thought of how businesses, when huge turn corperations, would go out of control. There was not a thought, because of the times mind you, that healthcare would go out of control. There was not one ounce of consideration of the long term future of the electorial college where certain candidates win popular vote only to get shafted.

I say since we have a census every 10 years, lets have a constitutional convention every 100 years to keep it up to date and not so much confusing for interpretations.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. I actually don't disagree with you there
My only problems are 1. I'd hate to live in a century where the far Right wrote our Constitution.2. Many Americans consider the Constitution some holy sacred document that should never be changed or altered.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. Here's why I'm worried about that idea.
The psycho pundits, fundies and anti-abortionists would seize control of it and turn our country into some weird neo-Xtian version of itself. These people want to replace the Bill Of Rights with Leviticus. That scares the shit out of me.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
72. FDR's Second Bill of Rights would be a good start.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. ^+1,000
'Entitlements problem' is a lie. It's a 'revenue problem'.

Tax the rich and corporations. End the FICA cap for earners making over $107K. Cut military spending a LOT.
Problem solved. Yay me! :bounce:
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The Nexus Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
73. Lets make it simple, constitution convention nt
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