Libyan Revolution Day 40 part 2 (The revolution marches on.)

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29">AJE Live Blog March 29 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418">BBC Live Blog http://live.reuters.com/Event/Middle_East_Protests">Reuters Live Blog http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x762674">Day 40 part 1 here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx_B38678">Marching On in Libya, for the revolutionaries!

Revolutionaries flee from ambush at Sirte

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/04/04/110404taco_talk_anderson#ixzz1HvS7iW22">Who Are the Rebels?
Three of the world’s great armies have suddenly conspired to support a group of people in the coastal cities and towns of Libya, known, vaguely, as “the rebels.” Last month, Muammar Qaddafi, who combines a phantasmagorical sense of reality with an unbounded capacity for terror, appeared on television to say that the rebels were nothing more than Al Qaeda extremists, addled by hallucinogens slipped into their milk and Nescafé. President Obama, who is torn between the imperatives of rescuing Libyan innocents from slaughter and not falling into yet another prolonged war, described the same rebels rather differently: “people who are seeking a better way of life.”

During weeks of reporting in Benghazi and along the chaotic, shifting front line, I’ve spent a great deal of time with these volunteers. The hard core of the fighters has been the shabab—the young people whose protests in mid-February sparked the uprising. They range from street toughs to university students (many in computer science, engineering, or medicine), and have been joined by unemployed hipsters and middle-aged mechanics, merchants, and storekeepers. There is a contingent of workers for foreign companies: oil and maritime engineers, construction supervisors, translators. There are former soldiers, their gunstocks painted red, green, and black—the suddenly ubiquitous colors of the pre-Qaddafi Libyan flag.

And there are a few bearded religious men, more disciplined than the others, who appear intent on fighting at the dangerous tip of the advancing lines. It seems unlikely, however, that they represent Al Qaeda. I saw prayers being held on the front line at Ras Lanuf, but most of the fighters did not attend. One zealous-looking fighter at Brega acknowledged that he was a jihadi—a veteran of the Iraq war—but said that he welcomed U.S. involvement in Libya, because Qaddafi was a kafir, an unbeliever.

Outside Ajdabiya, a man named Ibrahim, one of many émigrés who have returned, said, “Libyans have always been Muslims—good Muslims.” People here regard themselves as decent and observant; a bit old-fashioned and parochial, but not Islamist radicals. Ibrahim is fifty-seven. He lives in Chicago, and turned over his auto-body shop and car wash to a friend so that he could come and fight. He had made his life in the United States, he said, but it was his duty as a Libyan to help get rid of Qaddafi––“the monster.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/28/libya-military-action-live-updates#block-42">Here's what the Guardian's Richard Adams in Washington DC made of Obama's speech
"If we tried to overthrow Gaddafi by force, our coalition would splinter. We would likely have to put U.S. troops on the ground, or risk killing many civilians from the air. The dangers faced by our men and women in uniform would be far greater. So would the costs, and our share of the responsibility for what comes next. To be blunt, we went down that road in Iraq."

Thanks to the extraordinary sacrifices of our troops and the determination of our diplomats, we are hopeful about Iraq's future. But regime change there took eight years, thousands of American and Iraqi lives, and nearly a trillion dollars. That is not something we can afford to repeat in Libya."

The comparison with Iraq is instructive. It will infuriate Republicans, at least those of them who cling to the notion that the Iraq invasion was justified, but for the rest of the country there is zero appetite for a similar military adventure with a similar downside.

In short, this speech won't shut his critics up but it will shape the terms of debate in favour of Obama's policy. In the end, though, it's Gaddafi's fate that dictates the success or failure of Obama's policy, and no speech can change that.

Fucking awesome Obama! Woot.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-video/video/2011/03/28/president-obama-s-speech-libya">President Obama’s Speech on Libya - video
Monday, March 28, 2011, the President delivers an address at the National Defense University in Washington, DC to update the American people on the situation in Libya, including the actions we’ve taken with allies and partners to protect the Libyan people from the brutality of Moammar Qaddafi, the transition to NATO command and control, and our policy going forward.

Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=731532

Topic on the women of the revolution, dispels myths that they are treated poorly: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Tea of Freedom Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5tu5bJWKc

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada: http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission Norway: http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya Belgium: http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya Qatar and the UAE: http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support Denmark: http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi France: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’ Italy: http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source United Kingdom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote United States: http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya Jordan: http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours' Spain: http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Military Installations



Oil Map



http://bit.ly/fe3P">Google Earth DL here to see positions of army and patrolling route of mercenaries

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=212059469427545728757.00049c4df2474b6543347&ll=31.203405,30.058594&spn=96.173452,183.867188&z=3">MAP of Protests across the Middle East

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya, 1:52pm Tuesday, March 29

[joshcryer]

2. the rebels are now back in control of Bin Jawad (after being pushed back by Gaddafi's forces)

1257 : This just in from the BBC's Nick Springate in Bin Jawad, who says the rebels are now back in control of the key town, although fighting is continuing to its west.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

3. Al Arabiya: #Libya's National Transitional Council promises to hold free elections post-Gaddafi

@SultanAlQassemi
Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Arabiya: #Libya's National Transitional Council promises to hold free elections in the post Gaddafi period.
1 hour ago http://twitter.com/#!/SultanAlQassemi/status/52685969303932928

[David__77]

45. Would a "Third Universal Theory Party" be legally able to participate?

Or would there be a legal ban on certain parties?

[Iterate]

68. It would give new meaning to being a "Green Party" member

First of all, of the points in the Interim National Council vision, almost all are in regards to liberties. There is this:

"2. Form political organisations and civil institutions including the formation of political parties, popular organisations, unions, societies and other civil and peaceful associations.

3. Maintain a constitutional civil and free state by upholding intellectual and political pluralism and the peaceful transfer of power, opening the way for genuine political participation, without discrimination.

4. Guarantee every Libyan citizen, of statutory age, the right to vote in free and fair parliamentary and presidential elections, as well as the right to run for office."

There isn't in the statement about changes in the economic system, except this:

"7. Political democracy and the values of social justice, which include:
a. The nation's economy to be used for the benefit of the Libyan people by creating effective economic institutions in order to eradicate poverty and unemployment – working towards a healthy society, a green environment and a prosperous economy.
b. The development of genuine economic partnerships between a strong and productive public sector, a free private sector and a supportive and effective civil society, which overstands corruption and waste."

Given the common hatred of the Green Book (it was one of the first icons destroyed in that brief time from the first marches and the army's mobilization and opening fire), I think it safe to say Gaddafi's close and self-promoted association with Third Universal Theory may have doomed it, though that's not to say that strong elements of it wouldn't continue under a different name, even as the basis for a political party.

I think it's also safe to say that this isn't primarily an economic revolution; the talk always seems to be centered around liberties. Two other reasons it isn't discussed: it's all happened faster than either side expected, and the banishment of all other forms of civil society and open discussion has stunted the growth of more sophisticated expressions and temporarily reduced people's self-organizing skills(as witnessed by the rebel army).

Having said that much, the basic system will likely remain largely socialist, as it has been since independence. Whether or not the family crime business privatizations begun by the Gaddafi's will continue is still unknown, and I'm not inclined to conspiracy theories.

[joshcryer]

4. The national council, releases "A Vision of a Democratic Libya"

PDF: http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Documents/2011/3/29/2011329113923943811The%20Interim%20Transitional%20National%20Council%20Statement.pdf

[joshcryer]

5. Just finished reading it. No discrimination based on gender or social status.

Fully Democratic.

The Libyans, if they implement this, will surge ahead of all other Arab nations.

[MedleyMisty]

6. If only other governments would listen to them

But their press conferences are ignored and from what I hear they're not going to be included in the deciding Libya's future by international committee meetings.

We need to spread that document as wide and far as we can, to show that the opposition is not Al Qaeda or Islamists or extremists of any sort, but people who are way more socially conscious than most Americans. Which it makes sense that they would be - living under a totalitarian dictatorship for 40+ years and then fighting and dying to get rid of it focuses one's social conscious.

[joshcryer]

8. They're being asked by the Qatarian TV channel to be more open and forthcoming.

I had a source for that but I really have to be going soon and have other stuff to post. I expect we'll hear a lot more.

Really, that document is truly western in all it's form and it will be denounced by many here because it mentioned the word "privatize."

[bobbolink]

19. "A Vision of a Democratic Libya"

If they are not heard, are not included in the building of a new country, then the DU naysayers are right.

:nuke:

We need your website, Misty!

[defendandprotect]

42. LIBYA HURRA -- !!

[joshcryer]

7. Mahmud Shammam appointed to Ministry of Information for INC:

http://www.libya-alyoum.com/news/index.php?id=21&textid=3646">Mahmud Shammam appointed to Ministry of Information for TNC
Libya has learned today from sources that the Interim National Council is responsible for the appointment of Mahmud Shammam and information minister, Mohammed Allaqi and minister of justice.

This comes after the reservation earlier for more than twenty names of the causes and reasons of security as he put it did not accrue to Libya today of the fact that these figures have been announced now among the twenty who had had reservations about the Council mentioned above.

And indicated that Mahmoud melon is a member of the Advisory Council for the Middle East in an institution Karniqi relational and Mohammed was the head of the Libyan Human Rights Society.

Note, his name translates by google translate as "cantaloupe."

Also, another expat. That makes three so far. Unsurprising to me, but be prepared for conspiracy talk. Ooooh, scary expats.

[joshcryer]

9. Iman al-Obeidi is now facing criminal charges ("grave offence to accuse someone of a sexual crime")

11.48am: Ian Black, in Tripoli, writes that Iman al-Obeidi – "the Libyan woman who electrified the world with her accusation of rape by Gaddafi militiamen, is now facing criminal charges, a government spokesman confirmed today". Ian said Obeidi's whereabouts remained unclear:

Mussa Ibrahim said Obeidi was now facing charges brought by some of the 15 men she claimed on Saturday had detained, beaten and raped her. It was not known whether she was still in custody. Previous official statements about her have proved to be incorrect. Ibrahim has described Obeidi as drunk and mentally disturbed.

"It's a legal case," Ibrahim told reporters in Tripoli. "The boys who she accused of rape are making a case against her because it's a grave offence to accuse someone of a sexual crime." Before these latest comments he had said that her only offence was entering the Tripoli compound where large numbers of foreign journalists covering the Libyan crisis are staying at a luxury hotel-cum media centre.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-live-updates?commentpage=2#start-of-comments#block-17

Hear that folks? The "more free Tripoli" makes it a "grave offense to accuse someone of a sexual crime." :puke:

[CJvR]

12. Not unheard of...

...if a victim charge someone of rape and fails to prove it under Islamic law then she automatically have confessed to extra-marital sex - a crime. Religious laws are such fun!

[joshcryer]

10. Libyan woman sued by men she alleges raped her, official says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42318419/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa">Libyan woman sued by men she alleges raped her, official says
A Libyan lawyer who claimed she was raped by troops loyal to leader Moammar Gadhafi is being sued by the four men under investigation, Libya's main government spokesman said Tuesday.

"I heard that the attorney-general brought her in for questioning because she is now not just the accuser, she is the accused. There is a case against her," Ibrahim told journalists earlier, Sky News reported.

He claimed al-Obeidi had "not come up with anything substantial."

"She says four people kidnapped and raped her, one of them is the son of someone in the state. That is hardly political, the son of someone in the state is a human being," Ibrahim said, according to Sky.

"Now the four guys are having a case filed against her because instead of going to a police station and filing a case against them she went to the media and exposed their names," he added. "Now their honor is tainted, their families black-named and this in the Islamic law is a very grave offense."

:puke:

Fucking infuriating. INFURIATING.

[joshcryer]

11. I thought Gaddafi's Libya was "secular"?

I'm out for the day. Good luck guys.

[tabatha]

18. If the purpose is to whitewash their side

then they are incredibly stupid to think that the people they are trying to impress are either impressed or gullible enough to believe them.

I thought that they had already stated that there were people involved. Have they gone back on their earlier statements?

And why did they try to bribe her into changing her statements?

[tabatha]

38. Faith: The Symbol of Libyan Freedom

Faith: The Symbol of Libyan Freedom (by Anna N Bakhtiyarova on 03/29/11)

Called a "thief", a "prostitute", a "drunk"..
Threatened and tortured, yet still strong,
Among fear, among violence and death -
...Faith, make me brave, with You I belong.

Faith, hold me tight, don't let me go.
Inspire me, so I can change.
So I relearn to be humane,
So I again can feel the rage.

So we again can chase our dreams,
So we again are free and safe.
Iman, in You I trust and believe,
For Arabic "Iman" stands for "Faith".

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Free-Iman-Al-Obeidi/204101406285342?sk=wall

[Iterate]

13. 1.44pm: Guardian blog: Ian Black, in Tripoli, writes...

1.44pm: Ian Black, in Tripoli, writes that Libyan officials "insist, improbably, that there are no shortages in government-controlled areas". However Ian says that is "certainly not true of Misrata, the country's third city, where small numbers of rebels continue to hold out against Gaddafi loyalists and there are reports of a deepening humanitarian crisis, including dwindling stocks of drugs and medical equipment".

The most visible sign of trouble is the long queues at petrol stations. On the 460 kilometres journey from Tripoli to Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte on Monday every petrol station was either closed or had queues stretching hundreds of yards. Traffic jams in the capital are caused by motorists waiting to fill up their tanks.

The problem is a combination of drastically reduced production, poor distribution and panic buying. Oil production is down to about one quarter of pre-crisis levels partly because of the flight of foreign workers. The refinery at Zawiya west of Tripoli was damaged in the fighting and while the one at Ras Lanuf in the east is in rebel hands. Italian tankers bringing refined petroleum have reportedly been turned back.

...

The head of the Libyan ports authority complained this week that some imports of food and medicine have been stopped even though they are not subject to an embargo by the UN security council.Libyans also say they are short of cooking gas.

...more

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-live-updates?commentpage=2#start-of-comments#block-17

[Iterate]

14. Ugandan government has seized control of Libya’s majority stake in Uganda Telecom

2:38pm:(GMT+2) The Ugandan government has seized control of Libya’s majority stake in Uganda Telecom to comply with UN sanctions, technology minister Aggrey Awori tells Reuters.

http://www.libyafeb17.com/

[Iterate]

15. AJE: The US State Department will soon send diplomat Chris Stevens to Benghazi

11:08am GMT+2
The US State Department will soon send diplomat Chris Stevens to Benghazi "to establish better ties" with the opposition Transitional National Council, the AP reports. Stevens' mission does not constitute formal recognition of the opposition as representatives of the Libyan people, and it's unclear exactly when he will go.

Stevens is a career foreign service officer, having worked at the State Department since 1991 after graduating from Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco, Calif, according to his LinkedIn profile. He completed his undergraduate studies at the University of California - Berkeley.

Stevens has already been in communication with the rebels. State Department spokesman Mark Toner mentioned his name in a March 21 press briefing, saying Stevens and Gene Cretz, the ambassador to Libya, had both been in touch with the opposition.

Stevens has previously worked at the US embassy in Tripoli, the Libyan capital; his name appears on many of the embassy's diplomatic cables, which were released by WikiLeaks.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29

I don't know who this guy is, but I'm sure we'll know more within hours. Also, I've not posted anything about the London meeting yet as it's still ongoing.

[MedleyMisty]

16. Libyan Karzai? Chalabi? Forget it.

Fortunately, the Council wasn't made-in-the-USA or manufactured by another foreign power. Rather it came into existence, a month ago, at Libyans' own initiative, soon after the winds of revolutionary change blew Libya's way, and after its people rose to the occasion with pride and courage.

Most of the 31 council members are unknown to the media. And the few with a mandate to attain Western and international recognition have used all contacts from their previous official roles or grabbed onto Western overtures through whatever channels possible, even unsavoury French connections, to get it.

Sources close to the council claim Western powers have opened channels of communications not in return for future Libyan concessions but rather out of concern that they would be left out of post-Gaddafi Libya and its economic opportunities.

Council members who stray from their mandate in favor of Western dictates are certain to find themselves as outcasts. Even attempts at establishing a transitional or emergency government, without sufficient consultation with the base, were met with indignation and rejection last week. It ended up as no more than a symbolic emergency committee.

Whole article - http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/2011/03/2011328194855872276.html

[Iterate]

17. Reports in regards to the Port of Misrata

3:25pm Clinton emphasises that the priority at the moment is to deliver humanitarian assistance to the Libyan people, to pressure the Gaddafi government through sanctions and further isolation, and helping Libyans achieve "political change".
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29

13:46 The Telegraph Aid ships are reportedly due to arrive in Misrata today. A medical ship from Valetta harbor in Malta is said to be on its way.

13:17 AFP According to revolutionaries speaking to AFP, Gaddafi’s forces are sweeping through Misrata. They are firing shells from tanks as they clear the streets.

11:23 The Telegraph A U.S. Navy patrol aircraft, a Thunderbolt attack aircraft and guided-missile destroyer USS Barry engaged Libyan Coast Guard vessel Vittoria and two smaller crafts after confirmed reports Vittoria and accompanying craft were firing indiscriminately at merchant vessels in the port of Misrata during the Monday evening.

http://www.libyafeb17.com/

ETA:
Buried in a news piece concerning the Turkish management of the airport in Benghazi:
"Meanwhile a ferry with ambulances and medical equipment on board sailed early Monday morning from Izmir to the port of Misurata to bring about 450 wounded people to Turkey. A Turkish relief organization, the Humanitarian Relief Foundation, brought 13 wounded Libyans from Benghazi to Istanbul early on Monday."

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-239481-turkey-will-run-benghazi-airport.html

Backing up a bit, because there were conflicting reports about who held the port and how much it had been damaged. This was a week ago:

Libya's Misrata port not damaged by violence-firm

LONDON, March 22 (Reuters) - The western Libyan port of Misrata is not damaged, a Maltese company with operations at the terminal said on Tuesday, despite heavy shelling by Muammar Gaddafi's forces on the city some 10 km away.

Logistics company Medserv, which serves the offshore oil and gas industry, said it had suspended operations at its Libyan base at Misrata's port.

"The port is intact -- there does not seem to be trouble in the port and it has not been damaged so far. It is 10 km away from the centre of where the trouble is," Anthony Diacono, Medserv's Malta-based chairman, told Reuters.

"All our warehouses are still secure because our Libyan staff still monitor the situation."
http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE72L1KA20110322

I know there have been more recent reports of shelling and battles at the port since then, but don't know how much damage has been done.

[defendandprotect]

43. LIBYA HURRA -- !!

[Iterate]

20. After 11-Month Ordeal, Crew Of Georgian Ship Recalls Harrowing Libyan Escape

After 11-Month Ordeal, Crew Of Georgian Ship Recalls Harrowing Libyan Escape
A Georgian ship languished for 11 months in the Libyan port of Misurata, as its stranded sailors slowly starved. But then the fighting began -- giving them a now-or-never chance to break free.
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 By RFE/RL

...

'We're One Family'
Even as the fighting intensified in Misurata, the crew of the "Vasilios" tried to keep the ship in good condition, shuttling mechanically through their daily routines. Even when a vessel is standing idle, its engine is typically turned on every 10 days, to keep it tuned and functioning normally.

The crew had followed the procedure throughout their detention in Libya; normally, the Misurata port authorities took little notice. But in February, one start-up had raised worries among port security officers, who promptly sent divers to wrap a metal clamp over the ship's propellers to prevent a flight risk. From then on, the "Vasilios" crew was more circumspect in its maintenance work, even as the captain sent one of his own men to dive down and loosen the clamp -- just in case the opportunity to escape presented itself.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian diplomats in Misurata had learned of the ship's predicament. Knowing there were Ukrainian nationals on board, they offered to evacuate all the sailors on board before the fighting got any worse. The men on board were elated. But suddenly the authorities scaled back their offer, saying they could take only their own citizens. The Ukrainian sailors refused.

"We're all sailors, one crew on one ship, so we're one family," says Artyom Slabospitsky, the ship's motorist. "If someone were to leave the ship, it would be wrong as a human being and wrong as a sailor. It's a long-standing law of the sea: It's everyone or no one. And purely in terms of the human factor, how could we do that? Get off and leave our friends and colleagues behind to be bombed? That's not right."

...

complete story: http://www.speroforum.com/a/51155/After-11Month-Ordeal-Crew-Of-Georgian-Ship-Recalls-Harrowing-Libyan-Escape

What a story. Any screen writers in DU?

[CJvR]

21. Latest from...

...the Great Libyan WWII re-enactment.

After chasing the Gaddafist to Sirte the rebels are now being chased back to Brega, it is starting to remind me of the campaigns of Rommel and the long list of incompetents he fought against. It seems the Tripoli express have derailed yet again, that lightly armed rebs can't handle regular armored units with artillery support is understandable and excusable. That they can't even deal with mortars and pickup mounted riflemen is either incompetence or just lazy! The defiant "we don't need or want intervention" have again become "why doesn't someone do something", apparently all those NATO bombs have gone unnoticed.

The rebs really ( Really!!! ) need to put someone in charge of their military adventure because the current mob organized on the principles of anarchy comes up very short against good old fashion disciplined fascism. Perhaps the rebs should try a new tactic, point your guns at the enemy rather than the air before pulling the trigger! I do wish them well but if they can't put up a better fight than this things will be headed for either a Gaddafi victory or intervention - both distasteful, but one more distasteful than the other.

[defendandprotect]

46. Would think these are exhausted people and little ...

refreshing of the troops -- while Gaddafi has declared full out war on them.

And also presume that there isn't sufficient military experience/leadership

available to guide them. When they've had military defectors, they seem to

have used them wisely.

Agree things could be better -- obviously great damage to protesters pre-NFZ -- and still.

[Iterate]

22. Text of the Interim National Council Statement here.

A vision of a democratic Libya
The interim national council hereby presents its vision for rebuilding the democratic state of Libya. This vision responds to the needs and aspirations of our people, while incorporating the historical changes brought about by the 17 February revolution.

We have learnt from the struggles of our past during the dark days of dictatorship that there is no alternative to building a free and democratic society and ensuring the supremacy of international humanitarian law and human rights declarations. This can only be achieved through dialogue, tolerance, co-operation, national cohesiveness and the active participation of all citizens. As we are familiar with being ruled by the authoritarian dictatorship of one man, the political authority that we seek must represent the free will of the people, without exclusion or suppression of any voice.

The lessons of our past will outline our social contract through the need to respect the interests of all groups and classes that comprise the fabric of our society and not compromise the interests of one at the expense of the other. It is this social contract that must lead us to a civil society that recognises intellectual and political pluralism and allows for the peaceful transfer of power through legal institutions and ballot boxes; in accordance with a national constitution crafted by the people and endorsed in a referendum.

To that end, we will outline our aspirations for a modern, free and united state, following the defeat of the illegal Gaddafi regime. The interim national council will be guided by the following in our continuing march to freedom, through espousing the principles of political democracy. We recognise without reservation our obligation to:

1. Draft a national constitution that clearly defines its nature, essence and purpose and establishes legal, political, civil, legislative, executive and judicial institutions. The constitution will also clarify the rights and obligations of citizens in a transparent manner, thus separating and balancing the three branches of legislative, executive and judicial powers.

2. Form political organisations and civil institutions including the formation of political parties, popular organisations, unions, societies and other civil and peaceful associations.

3. Maintain a constitutional civil and free state by upholding intellectual and political pluralism and the peaceful transfer of power, opening the way for genuine political participation, without discrimination.

4. Guarantee every Libyan citizen, of statutory age, the right to vote in free and fair parliamentary and presidential elections, as well as the right to run for office.

5. Guarantee and respect the freedom of expression through media, peaceful protests, demonstrations and sit-ins and other means of communication, in accordance with the constitution and its laws in a way that protects public security and social peace.

6. A state that draws strength from our strong religious beliefs in peace, truth, justice and equality.

7. Political democracy and the values of social justice, which include:

a. The nation's economy to be used for the benefit of the Libyan people by creating effective economic institutions in order to eradicate poverty and unemployment – working towards a healthy society, a green environment and a prosperous economy.

b. The development of genuine economic partnerships between a strong and productive public sector, a free private sector and a supportive and effective civil society, which overstands corruption and waste.

c. Support the use of science and technology for the betterment of society, through investments in education, research and development, thus enabling the encouragement of an innovative culture and enhancing the spirit of creativity. Focus on emphasising individual rights in a way that guarantees social freedoms that were denied to the Libyan people during the rule of dictatorship. In addition to building efficient public and private institutions and funds for social care, integration and solidarity, the state will guarantee the rights and empowerment of women in all legal, political, economic and cultural spheres.

d. A constitutional civil state which respects the sanctity of religious doctrine and condemns intolerance, extremism and violence that are manufactured by certain political, social or economic interests. The state to which we aspire will denounce violence, terrorism, intolerance and cultural isolation; while respecting human rights, rules and principles of citizenship and the rights of minorities and those most vulnerable. Every individual will enjoy the full rights of citizenship, regardless of colour, gender, ethnicity or social status.

8. Build a democratic Libya whose international and regional relationships will be based upon:

a. The embodiment of democratic values and institutions which respects its neighbours, builds partnerships and recognises the independence and sovereignty of other nations. The state will also seek to enhance regional integration and international co-operation through its participation with members of the international community in achieving international peace and security.

b. A state which will uphold the values of international justice, citizenship, the respect of international humanitarian law and human rights declarations, as well as condemning authoritarian and despotic regimes. The interests and rights of foreign nationals and companies will be protected. Immigration, residency and citizenship will be managed by government institutions, respecting the principles and rights of political asylum and public liberties.

c. A state which will join the international community in rejecting and denouncing racism, discrimination and terrorism while strongly supporting peace, democracy and freedom.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/29/vision-democratic-libya-interim-national-council

Posting the text in the hope that if it's one less click away more people might read it.

[Iterate]

23. AJE: Sweden plans to send up to eight fighter aircraft...

3:41pm Sweden plans to send up to eight fighter aircraft to help enforce the no-fly zone over Libya, Fredrik Reinfeldt, the Swedish prime minister, says.
JAS-39 Gripen planes will be used, but they will not be mandated to fire on Gaddafi's forces, unless they are fired upon first.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29

Yet another event that doesn't fit the loudest narrative.

[Iterate]

24. AJE: Cuba's Fidel Castro has once again slammed military intervention in Libya,

4:33pm Cuba's Fidel Castro has once again slammed military intervention in Libya, terming it a "fascist" war. In an article published in the Cuban media, Castro calls on Gaddafi to fight to his "last breath".
If Gaddafi honours his people's traditions and decides to fight to the last breath as promised with the Libyans who are facing the worst ever bombing a country has ever suffered, it will spell a mire of shame to NATO and its criminal projects ... Now, the criminal and discredited NATO is telling a 'beautiful' story about its 'humanitarian' bombing."

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29

Posted with a note:
I am not anti-Castro and am, in fact, often pro-Castro. I am anti-imperialist. I am also anti-massacre and anti-despot. His statements are posted because he said them, and because it delineates a split in the modern left. It also shows that the legacy of cold war politics remains with us, and not just in Libya and K-street.

[defendandprotect]

47. Agree with your comments --

Not anti-Castro either -- and think he is expressing the fears that all of us

on the left have of trusting our own government!! When has that worked lately?

However, Libyans asked for NFZ cover -- they would have been wiped out without it.

Gaddifi is waging full scale war on them --

but the NFZ came late -- perhaps purposefully? Something we all have to think about.

That has hurt the protesters in many ways -- more deaths -- less ability to pick up

fresh troops as they retake cities -- a people on the whole greatly more exhausted

and in disarray -- supply lines not working as well as they need to -- petrol shortages.

Period without the NFZ while Gaddafi bombed them has cost them a great deal in every way!

[Iterate]

25. Update on the Port of Misurata

5:55pm Earlier today, US forces attacked three Libyan ships earlier today, barring them from firing at commercial vessels docked at Misurata's port. The US Sixth Fleet says that a Libyan Coast Guard ship was damaged. One of two other small ships was destroyed, and the other abandoned.
The attack was launched by a destroyer and fighter aircraft.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29

[Iterate]

26. Video: the destruction caused by Gaddafi’s forces in Misratah over the past 7 days

"This is a comprehensive video documenting the damage and destruction that Gaddafi’s forces, tanks and heavy artillery have caused in the city of Misratah over the past 7 days. Houses, shops, offices and mosques, none were spared."

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/video-the-destruction-caused-by-gaddafis-forces-in-misratah-over-the-past-7-days/

[pinboy3niner]

27. Gaddafi troops reverse Libyan rebel charge

Source: Reuters

Gaddafi troops reverse Libyan rebel charge


By Maria Golovnina and Michael Georgy


TRIPOLI | Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:49pm EDT


(Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi's better armed and organised troops reversed the westward charge of Libyan rebels as world powers met in London on Tuesday to plot the country's future without the "brother leader."

...


But the rebel pick-up truck cavalcade was first ambushed, then outflanked by Gaddafi's troops. The advance stopped and government forces retook the small town of Nawfaliyah, 120 km (75 miles) east of Sirte.

"The Gaddafi guys hit us with Grads (rockets) and they came round our flanks," Ashraf Mohammed, a 28-year-old rebel wearing a bandolier of bullets, told a Reuters reporter at the front.

REBELS ON THE RUN

The sporadic thud of heavy weapons could be heard as dozens of civilian cars sped eastwards away from the fight.

...


Later, a hail of machinegun and rocket fire hit rebel positions. As the onslaught began, rebels leapt behind sand dunes to fire back but gave up after a few minutes, jumped into their pick-up trucks and sped off back down the road to the town of Bin Jawad. Shells landed near the road as they retreated.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/29/us-libya-idUSTRE7270JP20110329?WT.tsrc=Social%20Media&WT.z_smid=twtr-reuters_%20com&WT.z_smid_dest=Twitter

[Iterate]

28. Guardian:Mona Mahmood has been on the phone to a rebel fighter in Misrata

This is what Muhammed, 45, told Mona:

The situation is still not good in Misrata. Gaddafi's forces are centred at Misrata's main road. There are snipers on top of the houses to protect the tanks which are based inside the city and the tanks protect the snipers if they come under any fire.

All the tanks are based inside the city to avoid coalition attacks cause they are among the civilians, and all they do, just shooting in random though no one is attacking them.

Gaddafi's forces are checking houses, if they find unarmed men, they detain them. every day, civilian cars come from neighbouring towns to provide the tanks and the snipers with weapons and food. we do not have rebels in Misrata but all the people here are defending themselves by themselves, using knives, trenches and swords.

Coalition forces attacked Gaddafi's abandoned and unused air defences at the outskirts of the city. Water is cut but people began to dig wells to get water and they succeeded, the main grid for power was attacked by Gaddafi's forces but the men in Misrata were able to establish a new power line which most of the people are using now.

more...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-live-updates?commentpage=2#start-of-comments#block-17

[kenny blankenship]

50. I think it would be safe to say that no civilians will be lingering in houses where the tanks are

If they can move they will risk the snipers' fire to get away from Gaddafy's tanks. In Misurata they are surely firing blindly into houses as they did in Zawiyah in the west and Ajdabiyah in the east. Tanks have been firing on the HOSPITAL in Misurata for fuck's sake, driving at it as an objective, because that was where wounded rebel fighters and civilians were being taken. The coalition air strike planners should just acknowledge that a humanitarian disaster has ALREADY happened in Misurata, that it is ongoing, and it cannot be stopped without targeting those Gaddafy tanks with antitank missiles, laser guided bombs, etc. It should have been done several days ago. How many more civilians are dead now because the tanks are left unchecked inside Misurata? At the end of this war, when the cost is counted, Misurata will have suffered the worst. Reporters will finally get in there and the truth of what Gaddafy has done will get out, and a lot of people on this site are going to look awfully stupid and callous.

[pinboy3niner]

56. CNN screen subtitle ~ "Developing Story--WITNESS: Carnage in Misrata"

"Gaddafi forces shell city." More news is coming out with sources--often including a doctor from the hospital--putting numbers on the casualties.

Of course, we won't learn the full extent of the carnage until later. Zawiyah looks bad, too, with reports that Gaddafi forces 'disappeared' all military-age men and suspected opposition members after they took control. No one expects to see those people again...

[defendandprotect]

51. Amazing -- G forces dug in and being supplied -- even haphazardly --

Most amazing are the civilians finding ways to survive!!!

Thank you!!

[Iterate]

29. AFP:The French ambassador appointed...

The French ambassador appointed to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi has been named as Antoine Sivan, a 53-year-old Arabic-speaking diplomat, AFP news agency reports, quoting a senior official source. Mr Sivan has held several posts in the region including that of French ambassador to Qatar.

http://feb17.info/

[pinboy3niner]

30. London Conference on Libya: Chair's statement

29 March 2011


Statement from the conference Chair Foreign Secretary William Hague. Following the London Conference on Libya.


Today Foreign Ministers and leaders from the United Nations, the League of Arab States, the African Union, the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the European Union and NATO gathered in London to discuss the situation in Libya.

Implementing UNSCRs 1970 and 1973

Participants today have reaffirmed the importance of full and swift implementation of UNSCRs 1970 and 1973 (2011). Participants reaffirmed their strong commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of Libya. They have reaffirmed their commitment to enforce the restrictions and sanctions on the regime and to act to prevent the supply and operations of mercenaries. We are working together to ensure that all states implement these Resolutions, of which Qadhafi still stands in breach. We agreed to consider pursuing, in the UN and regional organisations, additional sanctions on individuals and entities associated with the regime. Participants here today are implementing these measures as a clear message to Qadhafi that he cannot attack civilians with impunity.

...


http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/?view=News&id=574646182

[pinboy3niner]

31. Arming rebels would be legal under UN resolution--Sec. Hilary Clinton

Hillary Clinton has said that under the US interpretation of the UN resolution arming the rebels would be legal. She said that this had not been discussed however. Financing the Libyan transfer had been discussed she said, admitting that she was just "getting to know" who the rebels really are.

18.24
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[pinboy3niner]

32. Clinton: US has not made a decision on arming opposition

Clinton says that a decision has not been made on whether or not the US will be arming the opposition in Libya.

She says it is the US's interpretation that the UN Security Council resolution 1973 "amended or overrode the absolute prohibition of transfer of arms to anyone in Libya, so that there could be transfer of arms".

7:13pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29#update-20861

[pinboy3niner]

34. France prepared to hold discussions with allies over supplying military aid to Libyan rebels

France is prepared to hold discussions with its allies over supplying military aid to Libyan rebels fighting Moamer Kadhafi's forces, French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe tells AFP. He said:

I remind you it is not part of the U.N. resolution, which France sticks too, but we are ready to discuss it (arming) with our partners.

18.46:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[Turborama]

35. I've just posted the Reuters article on that in LBN

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4792246

All some people care about is money, apparently.

:hi:

[Iterate]

40. I don't recall similar hesitations when arming Gaddafi.

Everyone everywhere had a part in that cash machine.

Last night's report of high tech sniper rifles being used by his forces got me looking, looking in particular at the ones made in Tennessee by Barrett Firearms. There was some training of the Khamis brigade, private security training, and of course we refused to sell them Little Bird helicopters, but the same cable that mentions that mentions a ""strange" and "broad" list of equipment requests made by National Security Advisor Mutassim al-Qadhafi to the Department of Defense earlier this year"(2009).

Barret ranks high among those who manufacture such a sniper rifle but they don't list Libya as a customer. I suppose no one would right now. For now, beyond the obvious, beyond the Soviets, we may just have to wait to see who supplied what.

[pinboy3niner]

48. Maybe someone got screenshots of who they were proud to list as customers BEFORE

Russia is facing a loss of billions in arms sales there, and I was struck by what a top arms exec said when asked how they would make up for the lost business: he said (from memory, not verbatim quote) Maybe we'll have to look at Latin America.

Thanks for researching that--very interesting, what you found. :thumbsup:

:hi:

[tabatha]

52. Governments are allowed to buy arms,

massacre people, but if the people need help against that then it is a scandal.

[defendandprotect]

53. Exactly .... and Gaddafi is succeeding because of those weapons and delay in NFZ ...!!

Perhaps that was purposeful --

Not happy about this deeper entrenching of US/allies in this battle --

[pinboy3niner]

33. World powers agree to set up contact group to map out Libya's future

Source: The Telegraph

World powers agree to set up contact group to map out Libya's future


World leaders meeting in London have agreed to to set up a contact group to lead international efforts to map out Libya's future, William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, has said


6:13PM BST 29 Mar 2011


"Participants of the conference agreed to establish the Libya Contact Group," said a statement issued by Mr Hague, who chaired Tuesday's meeting of more than 35 countries plus the UN and Nato.

"Qatar has agreed to convene the first meeting of the group as soon as possible," the statement said.

The group will provide "leadership and overall political direction to the international effort in close co-ordination with the UN (United Nations), AU (African Union), Arab League, OIC (Organisation of the Islamic Conference) and EU (European Union) to support Libya."

...


"Participants agreed to continue their efforts until all conditions are fulfilled," the statement said. "The Libyan regime will be judged by its actions and not its words."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8414410/World-powers-agree-to-set-up-contact-group-to-map-out-Libyas-future.html

[pinboy3niner]

36. Eman al-Obeidi believed to be under house arrest at sister's home in Tripoli--Nic, CNN nt

[pinboy3niner]

39. Eman al-Obeidi has been accused of "defamation" by her alleged attackers

Musa Ibrahim, a Libyan government spokesman, says that , a woman who stormed into a Tripoli hotel where foreign journalists were staying to accuse Libyan soldiers of raping her, has been accused of "defamation" by her alleged attackers.

8:08pm
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29#update-20861

[pinboy3niner]

37. Situation in Tripoli 'surreal'--AJ's Anita McNaught

From live AJE report from Tripoli:

She said it's surreal there...no resemblance to the massive turbulence in the eastern areas and in Misrata.

People in Tripoli are still terrified to express themselves openly unless it's full-throated support for Gaddafi.

What do ppl in Tripoli think about the back-and-forth fighting going on? "They were told that the war had been won 3 weeks ago." People aren't certain what exactly is happening.

There are 2 realities here:

--Everything is fine.

--Everything is in a terrible state of upheaval with an uncertain outcome.

[defendandprotect]

55. LIBYA HURRA -- !!!

[pinboy3niner]

41. A UN special envoy will soon visit Tripoli--Sec. Clinton

Hillary Clinton has told reporters that a UN special envoy will soon visit Tripoli to urge Col Gaddafi to implement a real ceasefire, and discuss with him the option of leaving the country. She said:

I'm not sure that we know exactly when we will get to any change in attitude by Gaddafi and those around him.

19.37:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[David__77]

44. A multilateral ceasefire would have to be closely monitored by a third party.

But I do wonder what that would mean in reality.

[defendandprotect]

54. Do we have any response to this by the protesters -- the Council?

And, further, this will also effect Egypt and their battle for democratic

change -- what are their reactions -- and other Arab nations who want

dictators out?


Looks like humanitarian aid is coming to Misratah -- which is some good news!

[Hannah Bell]

49. "Western-supported 'regime change' marches on."

[Iterate]

89. Good, then let's make it non-Western and define into law just cause for 'regime change'

It's too late this time but if we get started now we might have an effect in twenty years.

Let's start with this, a short list for argument sake, just cause for regime change, as defined and approved by the UN:
1. Genocide
2. R to P violation.
3. Initiation of a unapproved cross-border invasion

Short list, written into law. Forget history just for a moment, we're making new history. Remember that 100 years ago no one considered, unthinkable even, that cross-border invasions would be much more rare, and with a few exceptions by notable retrogrades like bushI and bushII, you have to admit that it's been less frequent in the second half of the last century than it was in the first half.

You might say that list is too much an easy target for manipulation, and I agree for the moment, but consider this: the "it's in our national interest" cause isn't on the list. Please god let that idea die. People who attack the UN for it's actions unthinkingly accept the national interest as just cause, an argument that is the most arbitrary, most subject to manipulation, most prone to the whims of concentrated power.

Big penalties for violators who jump the gun, so to speak, and decide national interest is valid once again: seizure of assets bans on trade, bans on trade for the traders who trade with them.

Give it a generation to sink in. While we're waiting, we can do a couple of other things, like pass the International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries, and Global Zero, too. Maybe other nations aren't quite so nervous, and tensions with Iran and NK are reduced. Maybe a war or two is prevented and a few thousand village a few million lives are saved.

Another thing happens as well: if all your wars are carried out in a coalition, there's no point in having a the biggest one. It's the agreement and the cooperation that matters in putting together a large force, and you can't do that without having met the standards written into law.

Something else, it was missed in last night's speech (no, not a fanboy, I have been cautious about Obama since he said he wasn't a Tom Hayden Democrat). Look at the difference between the Powell/Bush shock and awe/maximum force/occupational army and the Obama minimum force/minimum goal/no occupation intervention. Imagine the different size of the MIC needed to support each.

Now the "Western-supported" bit. Currently, the non-Western states were too slow, too weak to make the difference in an event that moved quickly. I'm sure you would argue...but my point is more like this: under the scheme I narrated above, there is the possibility that two regions North America-EU or E Asia/ Russia could gang up on a small state and there wouldn't be anything anyone could do about it. The RtoP measures even now contain measures of proportionality and consequences, but still.

Regional authorities, like the AU have to be given veto power, at least, or require them to initiate the action. With those nations as well the dynamics is the same.

UG, I've gone on too long in reply to a one-liner, and the day is over. But one more thing, before you blast back at me, remember that I'm thinking out loud, and that the core problem, above all, is that it doesn't matter one bit what either of us thinks.

Oops, almost forgot to turn the history switch back on.

ETA: I posted this a few days ago, not because I agree with any of it, but just because I'm tired of a narrative that's gotten us nowhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594969

[defendandprotect]

57. Misrata -- 142 dead -- 1400 wounded since 3/18 --

feb17libya Doctor in #Misrata says 142 ppl dead, 1400 wounded since March 18; read more (8:42pm) http://t.co/3erwnRF #Libya #Feb17

[pinboy3niner]

58. Misrata: Hospital 'inundated' with wounded people; humanitarian situation 'catastrophic'

Reuters reports that Libyan opposition activists and fighters are facing dire shortages of food, water and medicines.

In Misurata, the main hospital has been inundated with wounded people, and residents say electricity and water supplies have been cut off for over a week.

"The humanitarian situation is catastrophic," said Sami, an opposition spokesman, via telephone.

8:41pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29#update-20861

[defendandprotect]

63. Think I read a report that humanitarian aid arriving via Mediterrean ... ???

Destroying the people before they have a chance to rise up against him -- !!

[pinboy3niner]

59. After Obeidi: "Woman chanting PRO-Gaddafi slogans now...minders haven't removed HER."

Jonathan Rugman of Channel 4 News tweets: "In a reversal of Obeidi story, a woman in same hotel restaurant is chanting PRO-Gaddafi slogans now - the minders haven't removed HER."


1950:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[pinboy3niner]

60. Deputy denies Libyan FM Moussa Koussa may have defected after traveling to Tunisia

From The Telegraph:

Further insights from our correspondent Damien McElroy over whether Gaddafi's ministers have abandoned him.

Khaled Kaim, Libya's deputy foreign minister, has denied that the Moussa Koussa, the foreign minister, may have defected after travelling to Tunisia. "I'll see him shortly," he said, implying that Mr Koussa has returned to Libya after what was billed as a private visit.

Mr Kaim said that Mr Koussa and Abdulati al-Obeidi, the minister for European Affairs, held diplomatic talks with foreign officials. He did not say who the interlocutors were.

"I think he has already travelled back into the country. I plan to meet with him this evening. He was with a delegation. He was with another minister, the minister for european affairs," he said.

19.53:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[tabatha]

61. More good words about Obama's speech from Juan Cole

President Barack Obama in his Monday evening address to the nation on Libya outlined an effort of limitations. The US could not intervene everywhere, but it could intervene to good effect here. America is acting in concert with the Arab League, the United Nations and NATO, not striking out unilaterally. The most important US contribution will be up front, after which the Pentagon will turn the endeavor over to NATO. There will be no effort led by ground troops to overthrow Qaddafi. It is up to the Libyans to deal with him once his armor is neutralized (presumably in the way that the Romanians dealt with Ceausescu and the Serbs dealt with Milosevic). The US simply doesn’t have the wherewithal to do more trillion-dollar Iraq-style operations, Mr. Obama said– another limitation.

Despite the close and elegant moral reasoning tempered by a steady pragmatism, the speech was full of genuine feeling, including empathy and outrage. It strikes me as among the better speeches President Obama has given since taking office.

http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/obama-on-libya-vs-trump-bachmann-romney-gingrich-and-carrot-top.html

[pinboy3niner]

62. Libya's rebel government in waiting – and in hiding

Source: The Guardian

Libya's rebel government in waiting – and in hiding


Revolutionaries who once imagined they would topple Gaddafi in days have had to cobble together an administration from scratch


Chris McGreal guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 29 March 2011 20.38 BST


Most of their names are kept secret. They often meet in hiding – at times in a church in Benghazi, on other occasions as far away as Tobruk. Some members of what amounts to the government of revolutionary Libya are not seen at all. They are just voices down a phone line.

As a popular uprising has evolved into an armed conflict that could drag on, the revolutionaries who once imagined that they would topple Muammar Gaddafi within days and inherit the apparatus of government have instead had to cobble together their own to run a war, maintain an economy and empty the dustbins.

The interim national council – just one of a handful of names it has given itself in its short existence – has registered swift successes, not least in persuading France to recognise it as Libya's de facto government.

...


When it came to forming an administration, Jalil was chosen as chairman of the interim council partly because he at least had some experience in government. But he has been sidelined in recent days in favour of Jibril in an attempt to get a grip on the political chaos and military setbacks.

...


"We will clean it up, that I promise you," he said. "The overall goal is to get rid of Gaddafi then build a democratic country <but> we need to put our house in order first."

Council spokesman Shamsiddin Abdulmolah acknowledged the problems. "Nobody in Libya had any political experience. For 42 years this guy was running a one-man show, him and his family. So there isn't anybody in Libya who can come out and say I've got some experience in a political structure. Everybody's learning the process as they go along," he said.

...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/libya-rebel-government-in-waiting

[pinboy3niner]

64. AJ: Explosions in Tripoli were missile strikes on a military base in the Tajoura district nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

65. INTERVIEW ON ELAM AL-OBEIDY: reporter from Al Aan tv in Dubai

Jenan Moussa interviewed Elam's mother two hours ago. Moussa tweeted a few details (about 10-12 tweets if you want to look) and will release more on it in a few hours after translating. They have not heard from her or seen her. State tv put on a woman covered entirely in a burga pretending to be her. Elam's mom said it was not her daughter's voice.


jenanmoussa Jenan Moussa
Aiysha, mom of Eman, tells me, "I miss my daughter and hope to see her soon with #Gaddafi head in her hand." #Libya #freeEman
2 hours ago

jenanmoussa Jenan Moussa
by W8ing4Everyman
Will tweet the link of interview and translation a bit later. #FreeEman
2 hours ago



I think the Gadaffi regime picked on the wrong family. They are formidable, both in bravery and intelligence.

[MedleyMisty]

81. Sounds like what my mother would say

I tip my hat in salute to a fellow female warrior.

[pinboy3niner]

66. #Benghazi #Libya received Medical shipment valued at $300k !!! #GodisGreat

Alaa Elharezi tweets:

All praise be to the Most High! #Benghazi #Libya received Medical shipment valued at $300k !!! #GodisGreat

Hat tip to The Telegraph.

[defendandprotect]

93. LIBYA HURRA -- !!

[pinboy3niner]

67. Antoine Sivan appointed as French envoy to rebel council--Reuters

Reuters names the French envoy to Benghazi as Antoine Sivan, who will act as the diplomat "in charge of relations with the Libyan National Council". Alain Juppe, the French foreign minister, has confirmed that an envoy has been appointed, but did not name him.

9:12pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29#update-20861

[pinboy3niner]

69. CNN's Ben Wedeman tweets witness reports "Libyan army regains control of ras lanuf"

From The Guardian:

2115: Ben Wedeman of CNN tweets: "Eyewitness says residents of al-brega fleeing east after . #Libya"



2101: LibyaNewMedia tweets: "According to reports, Zintan has been under heavy attack today. Let's hope that the coalition jets will protect them."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-london-conference-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

70. mil. op in #Libya may have "3 or 4 more days" to run "as is". Pressure to "wind down" focus

BBC Foreign Editor Jon Williams tweets: "Clock ticking - told current coalition military op in #Libya may only have "3 or 4 more days" to run "as is". Pressure to "wind down" focus."

2050:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-london-conference-live-updates

[Yosarian71]

73. Bad developments

NATO is in this to the end. They can not pull back. A loss here would be devastating to the NATO alliance. There should be close air support for the fighters to destroy whatever armor and artillery the regime has on the central coast.

The eastern rebels have to stand and fight somewhere. They can not disintegrate every time they are met with resistance. The West can help them, but it can not singlehandedly win the war for the rebels. If the eastern rebel armies can not perform better in combat, then it is time to cut a deal with Gadhafi to get him out. It is better to negotiate with the threat of success than from confirmed failure.

[David__77]

77. They are already doing those things.

Unless you think they should deploy helicopters and take troop KIAs and casualties.

[pinboy3niner]

80. They're not doing close air support

That would mean strikes on Gaddafi forces engaged with revolutionary fighters--which could have made a big difference in the opposition's recent battlefield reversals.

[The Magistrate]

85. Some Things To Bear In Mind, Sir

First, if you mean air attacks against government forces while they are in battle with rebel forces on battlefields away from poplated areas, such action may not be sanctioned by the language of the enabling resolution.

Second, close air support delivered in battle requires great co-ordination between the air and ground elements. The pilots have to know not just where the enemy is, but where the friendlies are, and with indisciplined irregulars, the latter is especially difficult. In this instance, the difficulties are compounded by the fact that there is no great difference in equipment: any heavy arms the rebels have will be the same as those of government forces, and both sides are using impressed civilian vehicles. The kind of careful marking necessary for delivering attacks in the middle of an engagement would certainly require NATO or US spotters on the ground at the scene.

[pinboy3niner]

90. You're absolutely correct about ground coordination of close air support

I've been on the calling-in end, and was very careful to mark friendly positions to avoid a 'friendly' fire accident.

It's possible to do it without such coordination when helicopter gunships are providing support, but 'fast movers' just don't have eyes low enough and close enough to the ground.

Reports of fierce fighting at Misrata in the past hours indicate coalition warplanes were flying overhead--but did not fire.

[CJvR]

88. I doubt they have any.

Heavy military gear is like walking around with a "Please kill us" sign in such open terrain. I suspect the troops chasing them are in pickups and light trucks with a few ACs, Recoilless guns and mortars mounted. It is not heavy gear but simply better troop quality that is winning the battle. Hell, dress them in civies and it would be impossible to tell them appart from the rebs.

A mile long column of pickups - which is the last reb one and which is the first loyalist one.

[pinboy3niner]

71. Explosions in Tripoli and 'carnage' in Misrata

Explosions in Tripoli and 'carnage' in Misrata


By the CNN Wire StaffMarch 29, 2011 -- Updated 1822 GMT (0222 HKT)


Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Three loud explosions could be heard in Tripoli on Tuesday. It was the first time since the uprising began that such blasts were heard during daylight in the Libyan capitol.

...


To the east, Libyan forces pounded parts of the city of Misrata on Tuesday, with tanks firing mortar shells and troops using heavy artillery in an effort to retake control of the city, a witness told CNN.

Coalition planes circled overhead but did not strike the tanks, he said.

...


The day after Gadhafi's regime tried to convince journalists that it was in control of Misrata by taking them on a trip to part of the city -- but not allowing them into the city center -- his troops were killing and wounding civilians and evicting thousands of people from their homes, the witness told CNN.

"The carnage and the destruction and the human suffering from both the evictions and ... terrorizing the city -- it's beyond imagination," said the witness, an opposition councilman in Misrata, in western Libya. "It's incredible."


http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/29/libya.war/index.html

[pinboy3niner]

72. Most news orgs reporting Ras Lanuf, Bin Jawad falling back into hands of Gaddafi forces

The see-saw battle along the Libyan coastline seems to be heading eastwards again, as most news organisations are reporting a flight by rebel fighters and the towns of Ras Lanauf and Bin Jawad are falling back into the hands of the pro-Gaddafi forces.

Meanwhile, CNN reports on the "carnage" within the embattled western city of Misrata.



8.54pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-london-conference-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

74. Sen. Levin may ask Congress to approve US military intervention in Libya

Carl Levin, a US Senator, says he may approach the US Congress seeking full congressional approval for US military action in Libya.

Levin, a Democrat, says he will speak to Harry Reid, the Senate Majority leader, about the prospects for a vote on the military action, which so far, while hotly debated, has not faced any test of approval amongst US lawmakers.

Levin says Barack Obama, the US president, has said that he would "welcome" a vote.

10:27pm
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29#update-20861

[pinboy3niner]

75. "fierce battle betw. Gaddafi forces and revolutionaries in Az-Zawaabi dist. of Misratah now"

FreeLibya tweets: "Confirmed: There is a fierce battle between Gaddafi forces and revolutionaries in Az-Zawaabi district of Misratah right now"

Hat tip to BBC Monitoring.

[pinboy3niner]

76. 2 explosions have shaken Aziziyah Gate area of the Libyan capital Tripoli--Al-Arabiya nt

[pinboy3niner]

78. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 11:30 PM TUESDAY, MARCH 29

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[tabatha]

79. This is getting nerve-wracking.

The rebels are still outgunned.

[defendandprotect]

94. LIBYA HURRA -- !!

[Fire Walk With Me]

82. Thank you!

[pinboy3niner]

83. Khamis Brigade bases in Tripoli hit by airstrikes again--Anita McNaught, Al Jazeera

Anita McNaught in Tripoli reports that the airstrikes in the Tajoura district of Tripoli targetted bases used by the Khamis brigade, one of the "better armed brigades" that is loyal to Muammar Gaddafi. She says these bases have been repeatedly targetted, and that this could be because they are said to have "underground facilities".

She also says that very few people have been comfortable speaking to the press expressing opposition to Gaddafi, as doing so in February resulted in "unpleasant consequences" for many people. She reports that people who do speak, do so quietly, and say they are waiting for things to change.

11:05pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29#update-20861

[pinboy3niner]

84. BBC: Kerry, McCain say no US military intervention in Syria--at least not now nt

[pinboy3niner]

86. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:01 AM WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[joshcryer]

87. Day 41 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x768720

[MedleyMisty]

91. I was rereading the interim council's statement about the future of Libya

http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Documents/2011/3/29/2011329113923943811The%20Interim%20Transitional%20National%20Council%20Statement.pdf

And I am sure, utterly sure, that NATO is letting them die because they are the most awesome people on the planet.

That's why there's all the slander in the media, the accusations of Al Qaeda and extreme Islamists, the whispers of "Who are we helping anyway?" and the effort to get people to turn their backs on the Libyan people.

Because their plan for their future does not fit in with the plan of the war pigs and the corporations and the dictators. And if they got that sort of government, it might give the rest of us ideas.

I say let it give the rest of us ideas. Let it inspire us. Let us adopt it as the demands for the whole planet.

They want to globalize poverty and pain and terror and violence and death.

I say we globalize democracy.

World War III has already started. And we are all warriors. No one is a bystander. No one gets a get out of jail free card. Everyone is drafted, by virtue of being alive at this moment of history.

Do everything that you can to not give your money to the war pigs. Shop local. Eat local. Bank local.

Turn off your TV. The Libyans keep asking for someone to take out Libyan State TV, to stop the brainwashing, that if Libyan State TV was taken out it would be a huge help to the revolution.

The day will come when we storm Fox's studios. But until then - don't participate. Don't let them colonize your mind. Turn your TV off.

We are all Libya. And I will remember those who did not stand with the Libyans in their hour of need. I will remember. Because we can't trust them to stand with us in our hour of need either.

I am going to write this up, with prettier words and more links, and post it as an OP later.

[Iterate]

92. I can't imagine it being said better than that, I just can't.

I'll save the other thoughts for GD.