Libyan Revolution Day 37 (Misrata into second week of shelling, Ajdabya almost liberated)

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-26">AJE Live Blog March 26 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=736676&mesg_id=736676">Day 36 part 2 here.

A young girl is forced to wear a burka in Benghazi

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/25/libyan-rebels-advance-ajdabiya-video">Libyan rebels prepare to advance on Ajdabiya - video
Rebel fighters expect Ajdabiya, currently held by troops loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, to be liberated in the next couple of days

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/24/qatar-planes-libya-high-stakes">Qatar's decision to send planes to Libya is part of a high-stakes game
In an air-conditioned room down an alley in the old market of Qatar's capital Doha, enthusiasts of "damah" gather most evenings. The ancient board game, rarely played in recent years, is now being revived by local enthusiasts. It is, afficionados say, a contest of strategy and finesse – and thus an apt metaphor for the high-stakes manoeuvring by the tiny Gulf state and its hereditary leader, 59-year-old Emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, in recent weeks.

For a country the size of Belgium with a population of 1.7 million, Qatar has been playing an extraordinarily high-profile role. This weekend four Qatari fighter jets are set to join the allied forces already off the Libyan coastline. The combat deployment is the first by an Arab or Muslim-majority country and thus of critical diplomatic significance.

Then there is the key role played in the "Arab spring" by al-Jazeera, the satellite TV channel set up by the emir in 1996. Broadcasting from Doha, al-Jazeera is now the dominant Arabic-language news outlet in the region and increasingly recognised around the world. Al-Jazeera English is gaining fans.

"Al-Jazeera were the first on to the events in Tunisia. Its reports from there were watched by the Egyptians. Then its reports from Egypt were watched by everyone else. It has been a very important catalyst," said Hugh Miles, author of Al-Jazeera: How Arab TV News Challenged the World. Others have gone further and described the successive uprisings as "fundamentally driven" by the TV channel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/24/libya-morality-intervention-united-europe">Libya: the morality of intervention
Could we leave Colonel Gaddafi's victims to die in full view of our TV cameras? I think not. It is quite understandable that the UN's courageous decision to resort to force in Libya should upset our pacifist conscience. Instigated by the UK and France, and backed by the US and other countries, this decision, though necessary, raises major moral and political questions about European integration.

The moral issues relate to the use of violence by states. The question of a just war, which has bothered us since antiquity, may well be addressed with theoretical discourse and historical references, but it remains a source of hesitation and uncertainty that we cannot simply dismiss. These moral uncertainties obviously have a political impact. This is perhaps because European integration is far from complete. The Libyan crisis highlights the need for the EU to grow stronger and gain greater coherence, in keeping with the promise of the Lisbon treaty.

Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=731532


Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada: http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission Norway: http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya Belgium: http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya Qatar and the UAE: http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support Denmark: http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi France: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’ Italy: http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source United Kingdom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote United States: http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya Jordan: http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours' Spain: http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Military Installations



Oil Map



http://bit.ly/fe3P">Google Earth DL here to see positions of army and patrolling route of mercenaries

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=212059469427545728757.00049c4df2474b6543347&ll=31.203405,30.058594&spn=96.173452,183.867188&z=3">MAP of Protests across the Middle East

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya, 3:10am Saturday, March 26

[pinboy3niner]

2. Libyan leader 'arming volunteers'

Source: BBC

25 March 2011 Last updated at 17:43 ET

Libyan leader 'arming volunteers'

By John Simpson. BBC News, Tripoli

Tripoli is hit by coalition bombs and missiles every night, yet there is little reliable evidence of any casualties. The coalition countries know that killing civilians would be disastrous in this war, and they are plainly making big efforts to avoid it.

Libyan television often shows news pictures which purport to be those of civilian victims, but they are impossible to verify. The authorities here are anxious to persuade the outside world that large numbers of civilians are dying.

And there is a precedent. In 1986, when the US bombed Tripoli, international opinion quickly turned in favour of Libya because there were many civilian casualties, and the international journalists who were in Tripoli at the time were able to confirm them.

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi adopted a young girl as his daughter just as she was dying from her injuries, and to this day journalists often repeat the line that his daughter was killed in the bombing. It was a particularly clever propaganda stroke.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12867445

[joshcryer]

3. Libyan crisis: Kenneth Clarke warns UK at risk of new Lockerbie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/kenneth-clarke-fears-new-lockerbie">Libyan crisis: Kenneth Clarke warns UK at risk of new Lockerbie
Kenneth Clarke has ratcheted up government pressure to depose Colonel Gaddafi by warning that the Libyan leader could stage a Lockerbie-style attack in revenge for Britain's role in the enforcement of the UN resolution if he is left in power.

The lord chancellor told the Guardian: "We do have one particular interest in the Maghreb , which is Lockerbie.

"The British people have reason to remember the curse of Gaddafi – Gaddafi back in power, the old Gaddafi looking for revenge, we have a real interest in preventing that."

Clarke says in the interview that the UN resolution does not support regime change, adding that he would regard occupation as madness. But his remarks suggest British ministers recognise they now have a direct security interest in Gaddafi's removal in light of Libya's involvement in the 1988 Lockerbie bombing which killed 259 people on Pan Am flight 103 and 11 on the ground in the Scottish town.

[pinboy3niner]

4. In Libya, coffins carry a mystery

Source: New York Times

Elements of Theater on View in Libya

David Kirkpatrick and Kareem Fahim, Tripoli
Published: March 24, 2011



TRIPOLI, Libya--More than 30 coffins were carried to the Martyrs Cemetery on Thursday, escorted by hundreds of flag-waving supporters of Muammar Gaddafi chanting condemnation of what the state media said were civilian casualties of allied air strikes.

But after two hours of noisy cheers - and very little grief - for what state television called ''victims of the crusader-colonialist aggression'', most of the coffins were taken away. Only about a dozen burials took place, and two Western photographers said some smelt of corpses dead for days. There was no way to know who or what was in the others, or what was going through the minds of those who turned up to cheer.

Colonel Gaddafi's Libya is a country where even a coffin is sometimes a question mark. Four decades of ruthless penalties for dissent - and vast rewards for loyalty - long ago transformed public life into an elaborate theatre, with a heavy curtain between public expression and private opinion. And that curtain has made the conflict a shadowy affair in which it is often hard to tell who is playing what role - from the colonel's closest associates to the flag-waving crowds in the street.

...


On Monday, the government said it would bury 28 civilian casualties in the same cemetery. But none of the deaths could be confirmed and 24 graves were left empty. More than half were still empty at the end of Thursday.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/world/africa/25turncoats.html?ref=africa

[joshcryer]

6. Libyans are really pissed off about the flowers.

The flowers were meant to be Euro-centric but Libyans don't have flowers at burials, flowers are for celebration, not mourning.

[bobbolink]

12. So I wasn't fast enough

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x741800

The disinformmation is already being spread, like so much manure..

:cry:

Disgusting.

[joshcryer]

13. I don't think these threads are meant to change minds...

...more be informational for people who want genuine truthful information. People can, and will, chose to ignore the information.

edit: and of course, you'll note that we reported on that very story you linked here in these threads, we're not covering anything up, but I'd be shocked if those people posting those kinds of threads showed one bit of concern for the people of Ajdabya, or Misrata, or Zinten, etc.

[bobbolink]

14. Well, that is true. Even if it gets the attention by only a few, and makes them think

then I guess it would be worth it.

Thanks, josh!

[joshcryer]

15. Hey, see my edit!

:hi:

[bobbolink]

18. Yes, I am really not at all understanding the cold-heartedness.

It is so much like what I have gotten around poverty.

I am just trying to get past those and concentrate on what is real.

That's why I'm here more.. this is an oasis.

[Iterate]

41. Part of the left got vested in a narrative

that came out of the 1960's and hasn't worked very often for 50+ years and probably never will. Like Chomsky, it's outstanding at understanding political power (thank god he's not evil), but it's lost or limited it's understanding of the moral argument that's inescapable in any political issue. I think that's part of what we're seeing in the threads.

Other parts of the left that grew from the 1960's, like Amnesty or Human Rights Watch, have kept the moral argument intact, but have been more pragmatic about political power. It's easy to see their success and failures. In an indirect fashion, that's how you got RtoP.

And on the other extreme, groups like The Catholic Worker Movement (which came out of the 1930's) have an overwhelming moral argument, but almost none on the power side. Remarkable people, effective at the individual level, but they'll be helping the same people forever. You may also remember them as the bunch who often get arrested by chaining themselves to SAC fences.

Here's the problem now, there's not much of a narrative or theory to link the groups; an event like this then splits people who would otherwise be together.

One of the reasons I'm next to useless at a running thread is that I can't help but look at the power and morality parts of anyone's argument, and by the time I'm ready to post everyone has gone home. It's useful way to look at things, but it's slow.

So I think I'll just say thank you again to you and pinboy. I've tried at times follow all the sources, thinking if I could outpost you it would convince you to get some rest, but damn, I can't even read that fast.

[pinboy3niner]

5. Gaddafi to soldiers: Fight or die (video, 1:47)

Gaddafi to soldiers: Fight or die (1:47)
http://www.smh.com.au/world/in-libya-coffins-carry-a-mystery-20110325-1ca4s.html

[pinboy3niner]

7. How Qaddafi bought friends and influence on the African continent, a photo essay:

PHOTO ESSAY: All the Colonel's Kings
How Qaddafi bought friends and influence on the African continent.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/03/25/all_the_colonels_kings?page=0,2&sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4d8d1f7063ef6478,0

[joshcryer]

8. Iraq's Maliki says Bahrain may ignite sectarian war

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/25/us-iraq-politics-idUSTRE72O6JK20110325">Iraq's Maliki says Bahrain may ignite sectarian war
(Reuters) - Iraq's Shi'ite prime minister, Nuri al-Maliki, said on Friday military intervention by Sunni Arab neighbors in Bahrain could spark a sectarian war in the region and must end.

Bahrain has witnessed a month of protests from mainly Shi'ite demonstrators seeking constitutional reform. Its ruling al Khalifa family, from the minority Sunni population, has cracked down on the rallies and called in troops from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states.

"The situation in Bahrain is different from those in Libya and Egypt. In Libya and Egypt the issue is not sectarian while in Bahrain it has become between Sunnis and Shi'ites," Maliki told the BBC Arabic television service in an interview aired on Friday.

"We did not move to support the Shi'ites in Bahrain but we called for interference in Bahraini affairs to be stopped and don't want to make it a sectarian issue. Because if it happens, it will be like a snowball, it will get bigger if it is ignored ... The region may be drawn into a sectarian war."

[joshcryer]

9. Strikes not enough to inspire defiance in Tripoli

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/25/us-libya-fear-idUSTRE72O6B820110325">Strikes not enough to inspire defiance in Tripoli
(Reuters) - Western bombardment may be weakening Muammar Gaddafi's air defense systems but it has not helped Libyans overcome fear of his security agencies on the ground.

Nowhere is that reality more palpable than in Tajoura, a district of the capital and Gaddafi stronghold Tripoli where hundreds of people had dared to hold anti-government protests after an uprising began on February 17.

As Western powers launch air and missile strikes to protect civilians caught up in the Libyan leader's crackdown against rebels, there were no signs on Friday that residents of the working class area were emboldened to step up their defiance.

Just a few Fridays ago after prayers, hundreds of Libyans gathered outside a Tajoura mosque and chanted anti-Gaddafi slogans, vowing to bring him down.

[joshcryer]

10. Six killed in Libyan town shelling: rebel

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/25/us-libya-misrata-fighting-idUSTRE72O63720110325">Six killed in Libyan town shelling: rebel
(Reuters) - Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi shelled an area on the outskirts of the city of Misrata on Friday, killing six people including three children, a rebel said.

The Libyan port, the North African country's third biggest city, has experienced some of the heaviest fighting between rebels and forces loyal to Gaddafi since an uprising began on February 16.

"There was shelling this morning and almost all of the day; it targeted a residential area on the outskirts of Misrata called Al Jazeera. Six people were killed including three sisters aged 2, 5 and 12 years old," rebel Saadoun said by telephone.

"This residential compound is northwest of Misrata and they attacked it with mortars and tanks."

[pinboy3niner]

11. ZAWIYAH: Disturbing accounts are emerging about brutality at the hands of Gaddafi's men

"Gaddafi's battalions have deployed checkpoints at every crossroad and street in the city," rebel spokesman Ibrahim said by telephone from Zawiyah, which fell to Gaddafi last week.

They kidnap young men, old men, anyone below the age of 50 or 60, whether an engineer or a simple construction worker, and they are taken to an unknown location.

Thousands have disappeared like that since they have taken the city. Shops are closed and the humanitarian situation is very bad. Residents are scared to leave their homes. Kidnappings and beatings are widespread.

I can't give you an exact number of how many people were kidnapped, tortured or killed. But they mainly carry out these attacks against civilians suspected of hiding weapons or supporting the rebels.

It's a ghost town. Gaddafi's men are still firmly in control but they are facing resistance from the rebels in some streets.

14.53:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[defendandprotect]

42. Can't imagine how exhausted the anti-Gaddafi rebels must be --

and they've got to now retake areas they had previously fought for and won --

US and others waited too long to deliver help --

[pinboy3niner]

43. What a coincidence--look at what I post next (#44). nt

[bobbolink]

87. I'm concerned about their exhaustion level, and their supply level.

However, their determination is so stoked, that I have no doubt they will persevere.

These things are typically 3 steps forward and 2 steps backward. Their strategy is to retreat when prudent, and come back to fight another day. It will continue this way for some time. (That doesn't make it less agonizing, but.....)

This is the difference between studying history, where we know the outcome, and aren't invested in the unfolding story so much, and LIVING history, where we don't know from minute to minute what is going to happen. Its agonizing and confronts us with a plethora of emotions.

I do have every confidence that the revolutionaries will prevail.

[joshcryer]

16. West strikes Libya forces, NATO sees 90-day campaign

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/03/25/idINIndia-55841020110325">West strikes Libya forces, NATO sees 90-day campaign
(Reuters) - Western warplanes bombed Muammar Gaddafi's tanks and artillery in eastern Libya on Friday to try to break a battlefield stalemate and help rebels take the strategic town of Ajdabiyah.

Rebels said they had entered Ajdabiyah from the east, Al Jazeera reported, while Gaddafi's forces held on in the west of the town, which commands the coastal road towards Tripoli.

The African Union said it was planning to facilitate talks to help end the war, but NATO said its operation could last three months, and France said the conflict would not end soon.

In Washington, a U.S. military spokeswoman said the coalition fired 16 Tomahawk cruise missiles and flew 153 air sorties in the past 24 hours targeting Gaddafi's artillery, mechanised forces and command and control infrastructure.

[pinboy3niner]

17. Ajdabiyah: Gaddafi troops telling people it's safe to come out--and then shooting them

Reported by CNN's Arwa Damon moments ago. She interviewed families from the city who had left to set up a camp in the desert to escape the violence. Difficult conditions, little water--but better than your family dying in the city.

Will post a link when CNN posts the video of this report.

[joshcryer]

20. International Medical Corps Care and Supplies to 25,000 People Displaced from Ajdabiya

http://m.trust.org/trustlaw/news/international-medical-corps-providing-critically-needed-care-and-supplies-to-25000-people-displaced-from-ajdabiya-eastern-libya/">International Medical Corps Providing Critically Needed Care and Supplies to 25,000 People Displaced from Ajdabiya
International Medical Corps’ emergency response team in Eastern Libya is distributing critically needed humanitarian supplies to approximately 25,000 displaced persons who have fled heavy fighting in Ajdabiya. The displaced are gathering in Al Butwen, a small town 35km east of Ajdabiya, with more still arriving.

The only health clinic in Al Butwen has a serious shortage of medical supplies, water and no electricity. International Medical Corps plans to distribute an emergency health kit – which serves a population of 30,000 for one month – as well as a doctor and two nurses to support the clinic.

Today International Medical Corps is assessing the surrounding areas to ascertain if other settlements are being established and will operate mobile clinics for other settlements as necessary.

International Medial Corps’ East Libya Team Leader Chris Skopec has been speaking to some of the displaced families. “The people of Al Butwen have been unbelievably hospitable to those arriving from Ajdabiya - most homes are currently occupied by 4-7 families. If the fighting stops they want to return to their homes, but I’ve already spoken to two families whose homes in Ajdabiya have been destroyed,” he said.

[tabatha]

19. At the time of writing there is no definitive evidence...

Statement on the potential use of depleted uranium in Libya

At the time of writing there is no definitive evidence that depleted uranium munitions have been used in joint US, UK, French and Italian attacks on Libya. However there is potential for them to be used and ICBUW reminds belligerents of their obligations under IHL. The statement is available in English, Italian and French.

CBUW is concerned that the current use of US Marine Corps AV-8B Harrier ground attack aircraft could lead to DU contamination should their cannon be deployed against ground targets. ICBUW is also concerned that the potential for contamination may increase significantly as the conflict develops if US Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt ground attack aircraft are deployed.

The majority of platforms that fire DU are land-based, although some air and sea-based platforms have also been developed. The only air-based platforms currently in service with the countries currently involved in the conflict are the US A-10 Thunderbolt and the AV-8B Harrier.


http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/a/396.html

[pinboy3niner]

22. iirc, Harrier canons reportedly were fired in the rescue of the downed airman

One airman was rescued without any weapons deployment; in the other case, one or more Harriers supporting the rescue mission used canon fire.

If questions are being raised about use of DU munitions in Libya, we should soon be seeing reports on the responses of military authorities.

[tabatha]

24. This was posted

because there was another post saying that DU weapons WERE being used.

[pinboy3niner]

33. It looks like that Harrier model and its DU munitions are no longer in service by the U.S.

Curiously, the Ban DU site expresses concern about that model Harrier and its DU munition, but on its site, here's how it lists that particular DU munition:

"PGU-20 25mm APFSDS-T (for AV-8 Harrier aircraft - no longer in service)"


I understood why you posted that link, and I appreciated the information. It did raise a question about the rescue incident, which is why I explored a little further. It would take more work to reach a definitive conclusion, but it looks like there may not be a DU issue with the Harriers and Harrier munitions the U.S. uses today (and the Ban DU site may not be fully updated to reflect that).

[defendandprotect]

37. By Gaddafi?

[tabatha]

21. Mohammed Nabbous - videos I had not seen

Mohammed Nabbous.....A Hero....and friend....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y21aDDseNBY

In remembrance of Mohommed Nabbous ~ March 19 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Q-rxUcW3o

John Scott Railton, founder of Feb 17 voices, pays tribute to Mohammed al Nabbous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83WSZkRhgmI


Don't know if they have been posted before

[joshcryer]

25. Not sure if you know but the entire month of his shows are archived on Libya Alhurra.

Link in the OP, you can see the archived videos at the bottom of the page. :hi:

[tabatha]

28. Thanks - did not know.

I think the second one is really new. Glad that there is an archive. Thanks. :hi:

Btw, love the colorful "burka".

[tabatha]

23. As Kadafi's rocket hits, singing Libya rebels scatter

Strumming a guitar, a grenade launcher slung over one shoulder and a machine gun over the other, Massoud Bwisir crooned a soulful version of his latest revolutionary song, "My Home Is Strong and Free."

Bwisir was performing in the desert sun at a rebel checkpoint five miles north of the embattled eastern Libyan city of Ajdabiya on Friday. Fellow fighters put down their weapons and joined in the chorus, belting out lyrics of defiance aimed at Moammar Kadafi's regime in Tripoli.

A rocket whistled in and exploded about a hundred yards away, spraying sand dunes with shrapnel. The singing fighters yelped and ran for cover.

The rocket attack was a response to attempts by rebels overnight to negotiate a withdrawal of government forces that have bombarded the city of 120,000.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-rebels-20110326,0,2979110.story

(These guys are awesome - taking time out to sing.)

[bobbolink]

26. Singing is a unifying and spirit-lifting force.

How wonderful that they are composing their own songs!

[Amonester]

38. Kadafi sends them rockets, and they send him music!

Keeps up positive spirit in spite of the unceasing uncertainty!

Another way of saying give me liberty or give me death! :headbang:

[bobbolink]

45. Very good observation! It keeps their integrity together, and keeps their goals of how they

want their country to be front and center.

Good thought!

[joshcryer]

27. Libya: supporters rally in Gaddafi's home town Sirte

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407306/Libya-supporters-rally-in-Gaddafis-home-town-Sirte.html">Libya: supporters rally in Gaddafi's home town Sirte
Supporters, some as young as five, marched along the wide avenues shouting pro-Gaddafi slogans, holding posters of his photograph and waving green flags. Convoys of cars followed blowing horns and playing pro-regime music loudly on the radio.

They are part of a mobilisation in Col Gaddafi's half of the country - residents of Sirte and elsewhere are preparing to repel an invasion from the rebel-held east.

Col Gaddafi claims that criminal gangs and Islamic fundamentalists have seized control of the east. That has become the rallying point. "All the people are behind Gaddafi. Sirte is one of Libya's biggest cities and it is loyal in face of problems with gangs," said Sameer al-Kiriani, a government minder. "Look it is early in the morning and the people are here. Too many people are flocking here, the hotels are all full. This is the centre point for all the people who love their country."

Sirte is braced for action. Checkpoints that dot the main highways are manned by adolescents carrying newly issued Kalashnikov rifles. At sensitive sites, such as power transformers, militias are equipped with heavy machine guns mounted on pick-ups. Inside the town makeshift tents providing shelter for loyalists have been erected.

[tabatha]

29. I wonder how many at the point of a gun, or a bribe of money.

I am a little concerned - just as Gaddafi was able to buy off most of Africa, and he is paying a new batch of 10,000 mercenaries to help him, he can get his way using the money he has. This is not straightforward stuff - I hope there is a plan to counter the influence of money. Money is truly the root of all evil, just as in the US with the Koch bros.

[joshcryer]

30. I believe he has a lot of support in Sirte, his hometown, and all.

Sirte gets kickbacks other towns didn't get.

What I find comforting at the bottom of the article is the talk by tribal leaders to negotiate.

[bobbolink]

31. supposedly, a lot of countries have blocked access to his holdings.

Obviously, he has it stashed all over. :(

[tabatha]

32. I hear that he has gold stacked in Libya, too.

:hi:

No-one should be able to rob a country that much.

[bobbolink]

34. "No-one should be able to rob a country that much."

And double tht for corporations!!!!!! :nuke:

[tabatha]

35. Libya fighting: "A kumbaya moment"

http://framework.latimes.com/2011/03/25/libya-fighting-a-kumbaya-moment-on-the-front-line-with-rebels/#/1

Pictures to illustrate report above.

We had just retreated from about two miles up the road, where we saw a rebel fighter armed with a rocket-propelled grenade, an assault rifle and an acoustic guitar. He was singing a song he had written for the revolution. It was called, “My Home Is Strong and Free.”

Don’t worry mother, we know how to fight. Don’t worry mother, we know how to fight.

A group of rebel fighters gathered around him, swaying to the melody and clapping their hands. The minstrel strummed the final chords and said: “Kadafi sends us rockets and we send him music.”

[Turborama]

36. Libyafeb17.com is back…and an explanation

(I was going to let you guys know that it's down, but it seems to have just gone back online.)

Posted on March 26, 2011 by admin

Praise be to God first and foremost

The past 48 hours can only be described as being “hectic”. Can we start by sincerely apologising for the downtime, we tried our honest best to get things rolling as quickly as possible but we were met with issue after issue.

We were on a shared hosting plan at the beginning but were told by our host that we were using too much resource and needed to upgrade to a bigger package, otherwise our service would be severely disrupted as we would be putting pressure on other customers’ websites. We knew that the implication would mean downtime as the new Virtual Private Server was being set up. We also knew extended downtime as the domain name “libyafeb17.com” would have to be pointed to the new server and not our old hosting space. This can usually take between 24 and 48 hours to work. So we took a deep breath and went ahead with it.

The new Virtual Private Server was set up and we started to migrate our files and database over. Sadly, we were quickly met with complications from our web hosts’ part who had incorrectly set up certain elements of the server. We were also met with disappointment when after installing everything, the server started to crash once more. We called our hosting company who informed us that the server was running on 100% capacity and that they couldn’t pinpoint exactly why that is. We were told to give them a few hours to look at the issue and get back to us. A volley of phonecalls did not get us anywhere by around 3pm yesterday afternoon so we called a friend who had offered us whatever we needed to host the site. He promised that things could be up very quickly and that all our needs would be taken care of. We took a deep breath again and decided to go with his offer. Once again, we knew this would cause more delays but the prospect of a server not crashing after a fresh install and being able to accommodate our website’s visitors sounded very appealing. We went with it.

Sadly, we were met with even more issues trying to get the blog installed and the database uploaded. Bless our friend has been on its case since yesterday non-stop, until this evening when things finally smoothed over and we’ve got the site pretty much where we want it. Unfortunately we haven’t been able to migrate the users and forum over as we feared that this may cause more complications (it did a number of times, and we had to reinstall fresh copies of the site a number of times) so we took the hard decision of just moving on without it. We hope this does not deter our registered users from registering again and participating in active discussions once more . We may give it another shot tomorrow, and we will notify you if we have been successful in doing so.

Finally, we would like to thank you all for your kind messages of support. They honestly mean so much to us and we pray and hope that we do not find ourselves going through a difficult period like the one we’ve been through again. From now on it’s non-stop blogging till Libya is free insha’Allah (God-willing) and we promise to walk with you through live and regular updates like we have and even better =)

Thank you all for your patience. We owed you an explanation and I hope this has been sufficient to give you an idea as to what’s been happening. It is quite late at the minute and we plan to catch some rest, wake up early today and start early also

Goodnight for now and may Peace be on all of you

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/libyafeb17-com-is-back-and-an-explanation/

(Note to Mods, there is no copyright notice on this post)

[Turborama]

55. Oh, and K&R & thanks guys

You're doing a really excellent job, as always.

[bobbolink]

88. Speaking of being "down"... you were AWOL there for a while.

Good to see you back again. :hi:

[Turborama]

93. Yeah, I've got a lot going on at home and work

I've read your messages and will reply soon, promise.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

39. Libya, Goran and the photo that went around the world

http://blogs.reuters.com/photo/2011/03/23/libya-goran-and-the-photo-that-went-around-the-world/">Libya, Goran and the photo that went around the world
“Goran, as ever, was up at first light and on the road heading south from Benghazi after the first night of western bombing. The Reuters multimedia team came upon a convoy of troops loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi who had been attacked. Goran carefully took up a position near the smoldering vehicles when munitions exploded and so was able to capture a wide selection of dramatic and iconic pictures. This coverage was the climax to Goran’s outstanding front line reporting from the rebel advance, retreat and western intervention.

:thumbsup:

[pinboy3niner]

40. "I've covered a lot of conflict over the years, but...Libya were the most heavy of all"

"I've covered a lot of conflict over the years," More said, "but I'd say my days of combat coverage here in Libya were the most heavy of all.

"The battle scenes were absolutely epic."

LIBYA -- March 17, 2011 at 2:54 PM EDT

Photographer Reflects on 'Epic' Libya Battles, Revolution in the Arab World

By: Mike Fritz and Travis Daub


Photographer John Moore is no stranger to combat. As a member of an Associated Press team in 2005, he shared a Pulitzer Prize for breaking news photography for coverage of the war in Iraq and he's done extended stints in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, South Africa, Mexico and Nicaragua and elsewhere in the last 20 years.

Moore, who now works for Getty Images, also won a host of international awards in 2008 for his exclusive photos of the assassination of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

Yet despite his relative comfort with being on the frontlines, Moore told the NewsHour from his hotel room in Cairo that his latest assignment -a six-week trip that took him to the uprisings in Egypt, Bahrain and Libya - might have been his most dangerous. Moore recorded the interview for us after sneaking out of Benghazi, Libya en route back to his home in Denver.


Story and video interview (5:41):
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2011/03/photographer-reflects-on-epic-combat-coverage-in-libya.html

[pinboy3niner]

44. Like a coiled spring...

Martin Rowson on the West's response to Middle East unrest (courtesy of The Guardian): "Like a coiled spring..."

[tabatha]

46. The #Video4Change Community Honors Mohammed Nabbous

As many of you are aware, Mohammed Nabbous, or Mo, as he was known to many of those following his video stream and commentary on social media about events in Libya, was killed by sniper fire in Benghazi on Saturday, March 19th. If you’re not yet familiar with Mohammed’s work, I encourage you to read these remembrances of him on Global Voices Online and The Washington Post‘s BlogPost.

It’s the first time, that I can remember, a citizen journalist’s work has been discussed at length in the mainstream media without the focus being about the veracity of the content. In part, this is due to some direct relationships with Mohammed among mainstream outlets’ like NPR and CNN. He had become a respected source on the ground.

We got in touch with several of our #video4change community members via Twitter to ask them about Mohammed’s reporting, how it impacted their understanding of the situation in Libya, and to reflect on how real risks are faced by those documenting human rights abuses. Thanks to my colleague Mari Moneymaker who manages our Twitter feed ( @witnessorg) for reaching out to our interviewees.

We’re sharing just three perspectives below. We hope that you’ll share your own thoughts with us in the comments below about Mohammad’s work and perhaps shed some light on other brave citizens like him operating elsewhere.

http://ht.ly/1bVGJx

[pinboy3niner]

47. Libyan rebels' representatives to meet with world leaders

Source: Los Angeles Times

Libyan rebels' representatives to meet with world leaders


Treated increasingly as Libya's legitimate authority, senior members of the rebel leadership have been invited to a conference in London to boost support for the coalition military campaign.


By Paul Richter and Ken Dilanian, Los Angeles Times

March 26, 2011


Reporting from Washington—

Despite lingering questions about the rebels in Libya, the coalition of countries battling Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi is increasingly treating them as the country's legitimate rulers.

Coalition officials have invited senior members of a rebel leadership group to London next week to meet world leaders at a two-day conference to bolster international support for the Libyan operation, officials said Friday.

The invitation was issued even though the coalition countries are in a delicate position regarding the rebels. The United Nations resolution that authorizes the air campaign does not direct the coalition to provide any military support to the opposition.

...


Gene A. Cretz, the U.S. ambassador to Libya, told reporters at the State Department that the so-called Transitional National Council is inexperienced and only now getting organized, but that "they have moved in a very positive direction."


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-us-libya-20110326,0,7940254.story

[tabatha]

48. Ajdabiya - ghost town

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bace0pbMpo

[pinboy3niner]

49. Pentagon considering using Predator drones in Libya--senior Pentagon official

From an L.A. Times story that included an interview with --Vice Adm. William E. Gortney, the director of the Pentagon's Joint Staff:

Because of the situation in Misurata and elsewhere, Gortney said, the use of Predator drones, which can hover over targets, transmit video and allow for precision strikes by small missiles, is being considered.

But, he warned, "the difficulty in identifying friend from foe inside an urban environment is magnified significantly."

"What we do not want to do is create civilian casualties," he said.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-us-libya-20110326,0,7940254.story

[tabatha]

50. Anti-Gaddafi Protest in Al-Nasr Street Tripoli March, 25th 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-L0rM9mi_k

[Tx4obama]

51. I really appreciate your updates. Thank you for posting them. K&R. n/t

[tabatha]

52. http://www.mohamednabbous.com/

"the official memorial site, soon, we will expand it to include pages with links to articles, videos, tributes, and a guestbook/condolences page...and maybe more"

http://www.mohamednabbous.com/

[joshcryer]

78. Just saw this. :( That picture breaks my heart and invokes some strong feelings.

Thanks for posting it. Mo was a courageous and amazing person. I only wish he lived to see the revolution fulfilled, and maybe have his own TV station in Libya. :cry:

[tabatha]

89. It is amazing how much he has affected so many people.

But on the other hand, it is not.

Yes, that picture is very evocative - he comes across as .... I have to think of the words, as they escape me right now. A decent person is a start.

[bobbolink]

91. You were the first thought when I saw that, josh. That quotation is also wonderful.

:hug: :cry: :hug:

[Tx4obama]

53. Unconfirmed reports say Muattasim Gaddafi was killed by Gaddafi for ‘refusing to follow' orders.

The below text from link embedded at Al Jazeera Live Blog

Rumours have been circulating online and in mainstream media for about two weeks that Khamis Al Gaddafi, son of Muammar Gaddafi, has been killed. Tonight, the rumours are making the rounds again, with a new twist. They say the 27-year-old militia leader, who runs a brigade which carries his name, was killed during an air raid on Bab Al Aziziya Compound, where the Gaddafis reside in Tripoli. Unconfirmed reports add that his brother Muattasim was killed by Gaddafi for ‘refusing to follow' orders.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2011/03/25/libya-is-khamis-gaddafi-really-dead/

======

From Al Jazeera English Live Blog http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-26

00:30pm

Rumours have been circulating online and in mainstream media for about two weeks that Khamis Al Gaddafi, son of Muammar Gaddafi, has been killed. Tonight, the rumours are making the rounds again, with a new twist. Global Voices blogger Amira Al Hussaini http://globalvoicesonline.org/2011/03/25/libya-is-khamis-gaddafi-really-dead/ collates the latest debate over twitter.

[tabatha]

58. Jeez what a blood thirsty tyrant

kill, kill, kill even his own family.

[joshcryer]

64. Libyan opposition rebels take the key eastern city of Ajdabiya from government control!

10:25am Libyan opposition rebels take the key eastern city of Ajdabiya from government control, Al Jazeera's James Bays reports from the city. Bays said:

“There is no doubt about it, you can probably hear some of the celebrations behind me, Ajdabiya is in opposition hands.”

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-26

[pinboy3niner]

54. U.S., allies ponder arming Libyan rebels

Source: The Washington Post

U.S., allies ponder arming Libyan rebels


By Karen DeYoung, Friday, March 25, 9:41 PM


The United States and its allies are considering whether to supply weapons to the Libyan opposition as coalition airstrikes fail to dislodge government forces from around key contested towns, according to U.S. and European officials.

France actively supports training and arming the rebels, and the Obama administration believes the United Nations resolution that authorized international intervention in Libya has the “flexibility” to allow such assistance, “if we thought that were the right way to go,” Obama spokesman Jay Carney said. It was a “possibility,” he said.


...


Both the United States and France, in closed-door discussions, have cited legal “flexibility.” Susan Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told the Security Council that the language in U.N. resolution authorizing international action to protect Libyan civilians “is not specific,” one council diplomat said.

Portuguese U.N. Ambassasor Jose Filipe Moraes Cabral, who heads the U.N. Security Council’s Libya sanctions committee, agreed Friday that the applicable wording of the resolution was “open to a lot of interpretation,” Reuters reported. Asked whether it allowed arms shipments to the rebels, Cabral said “I would not interpret it that way.”


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-allies-ponder-arming-libyan-rebels/2011/03/25/AFJP9mYB_story.html

[pinboy3niner]

56. BREAKING: Libya crisis: Explosions shake Tripoli

Source: BBC


26 March 2011 Last updated at 01:22 ET


Libya crisis: Explosions shake Tripoli

...


Several large explosions have rocked Libya's capital, Tripoli, early on Saturday, reports say.

A resident told AFP news agency the explosions were in the eastern suburb of Tajoura, which has previously been hit by coalition forces.

...


A resident of Tripoli told AFP that a military radar site in Tajoura was on fire. The district is known to house several military bases.

"The district was shaken by three explosions in succession," the resident was quoted as saying.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12869147

[Turborama]

57. LBN: Libyan rebels enter Ajdabiya town

Article posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4787884&mesg_id=4787884

[pinboy3niner]

60. There had been signs of the opposition strengthening at Ajdabiyah

(Re-posting here what I posted in your LBN thread)

There were reports from a CNN correspondent tonight (Friday evening, PDT) that he was seeing more opposition fighters arriving at Ajdabiyah with better weapons--heavy weapons such as multiple rocket launchers.

He also reported seeing more members of defected army units now showing up at the front instead of "sitting at home."

Both developments obviously were good signs for the opposition's chances.

[pinboy3niner]

59. Libya: David Cameron urges Col Gaddafi's allies to abandon the leader

Source: The Telegraph

Libya: David Cameron urges Col Gaddafi's allies to abandon the leader


David Cameron has urged Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's political allies and military chiefs to abandon the Libyan regime and help bring down the dictator.


By Rosa Prince, Brussels and James Kirkup 6:26PM GMT 25 Mar 2011


The Prime Minister made his call as senior British Government sources revealed that members of Libya's ruling regime and military leadership were starting to "waver" in the face of sustained airstrikes.

Britain and other coalition nations have been privately encouraging senior regime figures to turn on Col Gaddafi and topple him.

Speaking at a European Union summit in Brussels, Mr Cameron went public with that call, saying senior Libyans should ignore Col Gaddafi's orders and leave their posts. "The people around him and the people who are obeying his orders should recognise that the time is up," Mr Cameron said. "Don't obey his orders, walk away from your tanks, leave the command and control that you are doing, give up on this regime because it should be over for him and his henchmen."

He added: "Every day you work for him you are at risk of the International Criminal Court, and you are at risk of being found guilty of war crimes."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407263/Libya-David-Cameron-urges-Col-Gaddafis-allies-to-abandon-the-leader.html

[pinboy3niner]

61. US eye more firepower to hit pro-Gadhafi forces

Source: AP

US eye more firepower to hit pro-Gadhafi forces


AP foreign, Saturday March 26 2011


RICHARD LARDNER


Associated Press= WASHINGTON (AP) — Battered by a week of allied air strikes, forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi still remain a potent threat to civilians, according to Pentagon officials, who are considering more firepower and airborne surveillance systems to find and attack the enemy troops.

...


Among the weapons being eyed for use in Libya is the Air Force's AC-130 gunship, an imposing aircraft armed with cannons that shoot from the side doors with precision. Other possibilities are helicopters and drones that fly lower and slower and can spot more than fast-moving jet fighters.

With the U.S. pressing to shift full command of the Libya air campaign to the NATO alliance, the discussion of adding weapons to step up the assault on Gadhafi's ground troops reflects the challenges the coalition faces in hitting the right targets.

--

Associated Press writers Robert Burns, Ben Feller and Jim Kuhnhenn contributed to this report.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9565463

[pinboy3niner]

62. " It all looked like a rather inadequate set-up, done for effect"

John Simpson

BBC News, Tripoli

_____________________________________________


The coalition know that killing civilians would be disastrous in this war. They're plainly making big efforts to avoid it. Libyan television often shows pictures purporting to portray civilian victims, but they're impossible to verify.

Today international journalists in Tripoli were bussed to the suburb of Tajoura, which was genuinely targeted by the coalition last night.

Nearby we were shown a farmhouse that had supposedly been hit. But the holes in the wall that we were told were shrapnel could only have been the result of someone firing an automatic rifle at it.

And although the farmer, a strong Gaddafi supporter, said his 18-year-old daughter had been injured, the gardener said it was a four-year-old boy. It all looked like a rather inadequate set-up, done for effect.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12869147

[pinboy3niner]

63. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 9 AM SATURDAY, MARCH 26

Time flies when you're having...a REVOLUTION!

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[joshcryer]

65. Libyan opposition rebels take the key eastern city of Ajdabiya from government control!

10:25am Libyan opposition rebels take the key eastern city of Ajdabiya from government control, Al Jazeera's James Bays reports from the city. Bays said:

“There is no doubt about it, you can probably hear some of the celebrations behind me, Ajdabiya is in opposition hands.”

[pinboy3niner]

66. That's good news!

Now, "Go West, young man!"

[CJvR]

67. Partially.

If they captured or killed the Gaddafi army there it is excelent news, if not it is a very much diminished triumph since they will have to go through the same process in ever city on to road to Tripoli, or worse Gaddafi can throw the escaped troops at the western enclaves. A few thousand Gaddafi loyalists being led off to prisoncamps would have been worth more than the city itself IMPO.

[joshcryer]

68. Without their tanks and heavy arty they are really nothing, imo.

The revolutionaries "controlled" a good deal of the cities (including Ajdabiya). These cities rose up at the same time, and it's probable that a good deal of the pro-revolution people left when Gaddafi started shelling indiscriminately.

[CJvR]

72. Yes...

...but Gaddafi could re-arm them if he has a few depots left. The troops deployed so far is only a small part of what Libya could muster in a general mobilization. That means there should be plenty of spare weaponry available if there is the manpower to use it.

[pinboy3niner]

74. Did you see the BBC story?

This part...

Our correspondent counted about 20 Libyan government tanks, armoured vehicles and artillery pieces which have been either abandoned or destroyed.

He says the rebels have been chanting "Thank you, Obama", "Thank you, Cameron" - references to the US president and British prime minister.

A correspondent for the AFP news agency also reported that Ajdabiya was back under rebel control.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12869658

[joshcryer]

76. I saw the video that is playing over and over on that link, interesting stuff.

[bobbolink]

92. Hallelujah! These people are so fantastic!

I wish I had just a speck of that courage...

:bounce: :toast: :party: :grouphug:

[joshcryer]

69. "Ajdabiya is a ghost town. Now there are only dead bodies and families who don't know what to do."

0944: After the apparent fall of Ajdabiya to anti-Gaddafi forces, rebel fighter Sarhag Agouri tells Reuters: "Ajdabiya is a ghost town. Now there are only dead bodies and families who don't know what to do."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

70. Libya suspects will face justice at ICC - U.S.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/25/uk-libya-icc-interview-idUKTRE72O79320110325">Libya suspects will face justice at ICC - U.S.
(Reuters) - Individuals accused of bombing and shooting anti-government protesters in Libya will end up on trial at the International Criminal Court (ICC) sooner or later, the U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes said.

Almost a month after the United Nations Security Council unanimously referred Libya to the ICC, Western powers are enforcing a no-fly zone over the country to protect civilians under attack from troops loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

"Do I see that there will come a day when individuals responsible for this kind of conduct are in the ICC? Yes, it is not a question of if, it's a question of when," Stephen Rapp, the former chief prosecutor at the U.N.-backed Sierra Leone court, told Reuters on Friday.

ICC prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo, who has said Gaddafi, his sons and key aides could be prosecuted for the violence, said on Thursday he may seek arrest warrants by the end of May.

[joshcryer]

71. Hard to change Libya arms ban to aid rebels - Portugal

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/25/uk-libya-un-arms-idUKTRE72O71020110325">Hard to change Libya arms ban to aid rebels - Portugal
(Reuters) - Portugal, which chairs the U.N. Libya sanctions committee, voiced doubts on Friday about the possibility of amending a U.N. arms embargo for Libya to allow the arming of rebels in the North African state.

The U.N. Security Council imposed an arms embargo on Libya on February 26 along with travel bans and asset freezes for Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and members of his family and inner circle.

Last week, the council approved a second resolution imposing a no-fly zone over Libya and authorizing military action to protect civilians as forces loyal to Gaddafi try to crush a rebellion in the east.

The arms embargo allows the possibility of exemptions to the ban provided there is approval by the Libya sanctions committee, which consists of all 15 nations on the council. Diplomats have said U.S. and French officials believe that opens the possibility of arming Libyan rebels, who lack the firepower of Gaddafi's forces and foreign mercenaries.

[CJvR]

73. Brega...

...Al-Jaz reported that the Rebs drove through Brega without being opposed. Very good news if accurate - there might not be much substance behind the Gaddafi armored spearheads.

[joshcryer]

75. Of course, the revolutionaries are known to spin tall tales.

If they just drove through without stopping it's very possible Brega is still under Gaddafi control. However, Brega and Ras Lanuf were very easily taken once before, so it's possible that Gaddafi is holding up in Sirte. If true that's where the next battle is, and depending on the pro-Gaddafi sentiment (it's his hometown, and enjoys the luxuries from being so) it will be interesting.

There was a point in the past where Sirte tribesmen were negotiating with the revolutionaries for safe passage. They effectively don't want to be a part of this or take sides, and if they allow safe passage (merely to "avoid conflict" can be their argument in the future) then Tripoli will be right in their sights.

Tripoli is so big it has massive pockets of anti-Gaddafi protesters all waiting to be able to venture outside again. All that the revolutionaries need to do is take out the various mercenary guardposts along the road and it is open to internal protesting again.

[joshcryer]

77. some people do support Gaddafi, because they are doing well and are afraid that things might change

1021: Gianluca Pollastri, from Dublin, Ireland, writes: "We should come to terms with the fact that some people do support Gaddafi, perhaps because they are doing well and they are afraid that things might change. Libyan students abroad are indeed quite likely to be of this view because they are wealthy… so I would expect a slight pro-Gaddafi bias among them."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

This is how autocrats and dictators keep their power, even the socialist ones keep with themselves a class structure, so that they have people "close to them" who have "support for them."

However, we know that the vast majority of the tweeters are people who are from Libya and were part of a wealth class, they left for a variety of reasons, but some of them have returned with an anti-Gaddafi sentiment.

[defendandprotect]

90. .. but think there would be some hope there as power would begin to shift to anti-G-rebels....

fortunately, many times before they have been able to convince military and townspeople --

even in the hometown of G, to move to their side.

[pinboy3niner]

79. "Thank you, Obama", "Thank you, Cameron"

That's what the opposition fighters were chanting after re-taking control of Ajdabiyah following coalition airstrikes on the tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery of Gaddafi's forces, according to the BBC correspondent in the town:

Our correspondent counted about 20 Libyan government tanks, armoured vehicles and artillery pieces which have been either abandoned or destroyed.

He says the rebels have been chanting "Thank you, Obama", "Thank you, Cameron" - references to the US president and British prime minister.

A correspondent for the AFP news agency also reported that Ajdabiya was back under rebel control.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12869658

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad321/pinboy3niner/LibyaUprising.jp

[joshcryer]

80. The people of Ajdabiya are extremely grateful, too, they were effectively Gaddafi's hostages:

1207: Ajdabiya residents have claimed they were brutalised by Gaddafi forces. Ibrahim Saleh, 34, told AFP news agency: "The tanks were firing on the houses non-stop. I couldn't move from my house for days. There was no water or fuel or communications, and when people went out even to get fuel they were fired on."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

81. Reuters are reporting there have been further Western air strikes on Saturday in Misrata

1219: Reuters are reporting a rebel spokesman as saying there have been further Western air strikes on Saturday on the outskirts of rebel-held Misrata, which has been under siege from Gaddafi artillery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

82. The shelling of Misrata has eased. There was heavy shelling earlier.

1230: More on that report about air strikes in Misrata: a rebel spokesman called Abdelbasset told Reuters by telephone: "The allied planes are in the sky above Misrata and they have bombed locations of the forces in the outskirts. The shelling of Misrata has eased. There was heavy shelling earlier."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

83. A woman stormed into a Tripoli hotel to tell foreign reporters she had been raped by Gaddafi forces

1225: A strange and disturbing tale from AP, which reports that a woman with a bloodied thigh and scratches on her face stormed into a Tripoli hotel to tell foreign reporters she had been raped by Gaddafi forces at a checkpoint in the city. The report continues: "A waitress brandished a knife, calling a traitor, and government minders shoved back reporters who tried to intervene while the woman was dragged outside screaming."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

84. OMG heartbreaking, I have no doubt this happened because who would make that accusation...

...knowing full well the consequences? She's disappeared now. :cry:

Mercenaries have full impunity.

[joshcryer]

85. I understand we can't say we are trying to overthrow a dictator

1232: Gene, from Catawba, Wisconsin, US writes: "I understand we can't say we are trying to overthrow a dictator who did not come to power by the will of the people - but that is what we are doing and I support it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

I've noted this on several occasions, yes, that's what it is, and yes I do support the revolutionaries. A NFZ is completely stupid, the Russian weapons Gaddafi has had stockpiled were the problem. It is all the more important why R2P was invoked, because it gave foreign states a reason to take those tanks out.

(It helps, sadly, that Gaddafi appears willing to use them against his own cities indiscriminately, shelling one for well over a week now.)

[joshcryer]

86. Day 37 part 2 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x744173

[Hannah Bell]

94. 'liberation'! it sounds sooooo gooood

[joshcryer]

95. Go watch the reports on Ajdabiya.

They were liberated, certainly. And it was good, definitely.

[Hannah Bell]

96. the video of the guys toppling the saddam statue "looked" good, too.

but it was bullshit.

like this war & the phoney rationale for it.

[joshcryer]

97. The reports that are out there are not singular staged events.

But I don't expect intellectual curiosity to be an aspect of people who fail to reason on such mundane terms.

[Hannah Bell]

98. laughable to see you talking about intellectual curiousity.

but i note your instant resort to personal attack when your pov on the phoney war is challenged.

[joshcryer]

99. My statement was general. You can only be offeneded by introspection.

It appears that my statement was dead fucking on.

My POV on the "phoney war" as you call it is hardly challenged by people who cannot muster even a coherent argument that isn't rife with conspiracy theories and innuendos.

[Iterate]

100. I read your posts and agree with 95%

of what you have to say. I agree with most of your sources.

I guess though that we're on opposite sides with this one, at this point.

I've tried to stay as close to original sources as possible. I've tried to translate, or get translations of as many of them as I can. I've tried to listen only to reporters on the scene. I've tried to learn the power interests of those who claim to be at the top, or in the lead of the liberation. I can only say that for that admittedly select set, the message is consistent: it is a liberation.

I don't know what US media is saying about it. I don't know which self-interested US politicians have sought to insinuate themselves or manipulate opinion, because I just haven't had the time. I probably wouldn't be surprised if I did know, because that's what they do, insinuate themselves and manipulate opinion.

Similarly with the neocons and the administration, who just two months ago were solidly behind Gaddafi and in pursuit of his image rehabilitation; not any real rehabilitation of his lock on power mind you, just the image. That and setting up his sovereign trust funds and security services training. Small wonder they spent three weeks spinning in circles trying to figure out who they might prey upon next. Similarly, I didn't see convincing signs that it was Obama leading the charge on this. It appeared to be lower level staff at State and the UN, plus some European nations who backed him into it.

There are a few easy predictions down the line we probably can agree on: there will be an attempt at a counter revolution, that it will not turn out as well as I hope, and that it will not turn out as badly as you fear.

But at this point, I'm sticking with the Libyan people and rough estimates that ~80-90% support the liberation. A genuine liberation, if they can keep it.