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Greenpeace Nuclear safety expert says Japans nuclear crisis is Level 7

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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:44 PM
Original message
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/publications... /

Fukushima INES scale rating

Publication - March 25, 2011
A new analysis prepared for Greenpeace Germany by nuclear safety expert Dr Helmut Hirsch shows that by March 23 2011, Japans nuclear crisis has already released enough radioactivity to be ranked at Level 7 on the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES). This is the scales highest level, and equal to the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster.

Hirschs assessment, based on data published by the French government's radiation protection agency (IRSN) and the Austrian governments Central Institute for Meteorology and Geodynamics (ZAMG) found that the total amount of radionuclides iodine-131 and caesium-137 released between March 11 and March 23 have been so high that the Fukushima crisis already equates to three INES 7 incidents.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Text of Press Release from Greenpeace


FUKUSHIMA ALREADY LEVEL 7 CHERNOBYL ACCIDENT
Greenpeace analysis concludes

March 24th Berlin...The accident that began at the Fukushima nuclear power plant on March 11th has already
released radioactivity that requires it to be classified as level 7 on the International Nuclear Event Scale
INES, Greenpeace today stated. A new analysis has been prepared for Greenpeace Germany by Dr Helmut
Hirsch. His assessment is based on data published by the French government's radiation protection agency
(IRSN) and the Austrian governments Central Institute for Meteorology and Geodynamics (ZAMG). The
total amount of radionuclides iodine-131 and caesium-137 released since the start of the accident until March
23rd, as reported by the two institutes require the Fukushima accident to be reclassified to the same level as
the Chernobyl nuclear disaster twenty five years ago in April 1986. In fact so high are the releases that they
are amount to three INES 7 accidents.

In contrast to the Chernobyl accident which involved one nuclear reactor, Fukushima has suffered major
failures at four. Three reactors have suffered loss of coolant to a scale that has led to nuclear fuel melting. In
addition, nuclear reactor spent fuel stored at the site has lost coolant, caught fire and in one case suffered a
hydrogen gas explosion which destroyed unit 4 at Fukushima.

Dr Hirsch concludes, Taking all the releases from the Fukushima-daiichi reactors together this even
obviously an INES 7 with the possibility that it is three INES 7's, taking each reactor separately which results
in a release of 100,000 Tbq each.

From the very beginning this accident looked potentially devastating in terms of radiation release. It is far
from over, and today we have further evidence of a very real risk of reactor core meltdown with potentially
catrastrophic effects. The nuclear industry and the IAEA have claimed since Chernobyl that such an event
would not take place in a western reactor. Their dangerous complacency over decades has now led us to an
utter catastrophe for the people of Japan, and the accident is not over, said Heinz Smital nuclear expert of
Greenpeace Germany.

Hirsch and Greenpeace are also scathing of the INES scale as the basis on which nuclear accidents are
assessed by national governments and the IAEA. The INES scale was intended to be applied in the case of
one accident at one site. At Fukushima, the accidents have been at multiple nuclear reactors, suffering two
critical failures reactor cooling and spent fuel storage. The INES scale was never designed for such an
eventuality because the nuclear industry and the IAEA considered such things not possible. In an example of
their distorted logic INES classifies each event at the Fukushima power plant separately. Yet the releases of
high levels of radioactivity do not discriminate in terms of who they affect once they are released.

The implications of INES are that when considering the dose a person receives each source should be
looked at separately but it is the overall dose they receive that will determine what type of health
consequences they will suffer. Chernobyl has proven a nightmare for its many hundreds of thousands of
victims. Twenty-five years later we are witness to an an on-going accident of at least the same proportions,
with the potential to be even more damaging. Nuclear power should have had no future after Chernobyl, this
really has to be the end of this catastrophic industry, said Shaun Burnie nuclear consultant to Greenpeace
Germany.

Greenpeace is particularly concerned with the effects radioactive fallout will have on the densely populated
landmass of Japan. A large proportion of the Chernobyl radioactivity fell on Belarus, with a population
density of 40 persons per square kilometre. Japan by contrast has an average of 800 persons sq/km.
Metropolitan Tokyo has density of over 1200 persons sq/km. The implications for collective dose of
radiation to the population and human health are enormous.

A copy of the Greenpeace analysis will be sent to the IAEA in Vienna.

Contacts Heinz Smital - ++491718780803 / Shaun Burnie - ++491772488508

Notes:
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Press Release: Greenpeace calls for coherent evacuation and radioactivity protection
Greenpeace calls for improved and coherent evacuation and radioactivity protection plans, as Fukushima nuclear plant crisis remains critical

Press release - March 20, 2011
Tokyo, 20 March 2011 -- As the Fukushima nuclear crisis in Japan entered its second week and levels of radioactive contamination continue to grow, the international environmental organization Greenpeace, along with the Japanese group Citizens Nuclear Information Centre (CNIC), is calling for improved evacuation plans and other protective measures for people still within the 30km exclusion zone, as well as for pregnant women and children in contaminated areas beyond 30km. (1)

As the Fukushima crisis continues, it is clear that the Japanese authorities are unable to fully protect public health. Despite early assurances that there would be little risk to the public we have now seen extensive evacuation and increasing radioactive contamination in the food chain. Japanese authorities seem to be one step behind the situation, which has to change in the name of public protection. It is now time for full and prompt disclosure so people can be properly protected and adequate emergency plans put into place, said Jan Beranek, head of the Greenpeace International Nuclear Campaign. (2)

We also urgently need answers to the following questions:

* The government has reported monitoring information on the external radioactive dose rates measured at different locations. However, people are also exposed to risks of internal radiation exposure by inhalation and ingestion of radioactive particles. What information does the government have on the total radiation dose for the population? Further, what air contamination monitoring data does the government have?
* What exactly is the status of reactor 3 and the spent fuel pond at unit 4 where JAIF reported a hydrogen explosion in its updates from March 18, both 1600 and 2200 JST?
* How much radioactivity has already been released into the sea? Is the government monitoring contamination of the fish and other sea life?

This unfolding disaster has once more revealed the impossibility of keeping people safe in the event of a nuclear disaster, continued Beranek. Not only have the Japanese authorities been found wanting, but the international response has been far from coherent or adequate, with different national nuclear regulators offering contradictory advice. The worlds nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) stayed embarrassingly silent for days and is now impotent in the wake of this unfolding tragedy.

We are already seeing some in the nuclear industry dismiss this disaster as anomaly, as they did Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, arguing that we need nuclear power to combat climate change. This is a dangerous delusion; it should now be clear to all concerned that this technology is too dangerous to be part of any future energy plans. The ever-present threat of nuclear disaster and the emerging reality of climate change should be all the encouragement the world needs to exploit the full potential of safe renewable energy systems, concluded Beranek.

ENDS
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Chernobly's alienation zone is about 250 miles
How big is Japan???? I think this is worse
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
97. Chernobyl alienation zone is 20 miles.
Kiev, the capital of Ukraine and a city of over 2.5 million is only 80 miles from the Chernobyl station
and it most definitely wasn't evacuated. Where did you get that 250 miles from?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Goddess save us...
Is there a live cam on those reactors? I've tried not to look much until now... this could be catastrophic beyond imagination.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is 7 the highest level? I mean, what would an 8 look like?
?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. 7 is the highest. Chernobyl is the only other 7 in history.
I fear this will be clearly worse than Chernobyl when all is said and done.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. Why. I fear spiders and lightning when on a sailboat. Both will kill more
people than this reactor event.

27,000 corpses and this is the story.

Remember these.. How many dead from these "nuclear accidents". What scale are they, like 70?

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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
78. Those above ground tests have killed thousands
And in all likelihood will keep killing for years to come. The radiatioactive particles spilling from the Japanese reactors have the distinct possibility of killing just as many people as the tsunami did, except more quietly and slowly, so I guess I'm not getting your point.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #78
134. This is the mongering of fear that is shameful
are really saying a REACTOR Leak event will have more impact than DOZENS of open air bomb tests? Really . SO lets say you are, I mean, really. The bomb test high side numbers are 15,000 from all forms of cancer. If it blows the fuck up spewing core into the air then , maybe then, you start down that road.

So that still is less than tsunami given the NEJM numbers correlated from the bombs in nevada.

If a guy standing in a lake of "hot" water DORECTLY under the plant got a 170msv dose why do you believe the sky is falling outside the plant. Here is the radiation level in tokyo LIVE.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
112. You keep posting that photo like its a good thing.
Do you have ANY idea WHY the USA stopped Above Ground Testing?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. I was just thinking of a retort to that pic posted...
thanks for yours :hi: ...it is maddening when I think of the fact that I was told to stop drinking milk for a time when I was a kid b/c of the Strontium 90 or whatever the fuck they did to it with their above-ground testing...

these apologists are so...so...OK...no ad hominem attacks
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #112
135. Yeah, they figured out that the MASSIVE amounts or radiation they were measuring
Edited on Sat Mar-26-11 03:33 PM by BrookBrew
were causing problems. So are you also going to tell me that the reactor event is on par with dozens of nuclear weapon detonations?

So you think the overall health impact will be less in japan than the men we sent into fallout with dosimeters.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #135
138. Nobody is going to TELL YOU anything.
That is perfectly clear.

What I will say is:

1)NOBODY knows yet how BAD the "nuclear accident" in Japan is,
or how many will die in the immediate future due to radiation.

2)NOBODY knows how many will die or experience deformities in the next 30 years because of the "nuclear accident" in Japan.

3)Everybody agrees that exposure to radiation is NOT a good thing, and does cause harm.

4)The "nuclear accident" in Japan has INCREASED human exposure to radiation.
There WILL be death, sickness, cancer, and birth deformities.

5)The Nuclear Industry has been dishonest in their marketing of the safety of this source of power.

6)Your continuous posting of a 65 year old photo of a mushroom cloud to support your argument that Nothing Bad has Happened
really doesn't help your case.
I would rethink this if I were you.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. But don't worry, no one has died yet!



It is pretty wild, isn't it? Obvious too.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #138
155. OMFG look at the radiation in tokyo, Godzilla is at the gates..
1) it will be less than dozens of nukes in the open air. Yes? Or is this worse in you scary land?

2) nobody knows shit, I may die taking a shit tomorrow, just like you. However in the interim there is reams of data from nuclear testing. You know the science that did not emerge in japan last month.

3) YOu get exposure to radiation on an airplane. How much is key, you are getting exposure in front of your keyboard. See that camera thingy on your pc , it turns that radiation into pictures.

4) all them scaaarrry things are based on dose in MSV. So you fellow citizens who ran onto nuclear explosions (who arent all dead and deformed) paid up for ignorant poeple to make smart calls. That data is in the LOC, look it up.

5) No industry is honest, from selling you a car to burying you grandma, they lie. deal.

6) the nuclear testing from 50's to 60's is quite relevant, event to those to fucking ignorant to read the dosing data in rads and covert to mrem.

history is there for people to stupid to deal with the present in real time. it is a great crutch. So the guy in a lake of radioactive water got a <200 msv dose. wow I should shit my pants and freak out and pimp an agenda.

FYI real time radiation in tokyo. Panic.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
108. Chelyabinsk called a Level 6 by INES scale.
Would be a 7 IMB.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. It looks like they're implying it's off the charts, an 8 or more
When even the Japanese government warns that there is little cause to be optimistic, we know it's bad.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I am of the opinion that they have known how bad it is for at least days,
but they thought they could mitigate the damages, and deal with the fallout (no pun intended) later. We are getting to the point where they are going to be admitting complete defeat and acknowledge the either ongoing or imminent meltdown.

Then, they will have to deal with emergency evacuations and the additional internally displaced refugees. It is only going to get worse from here. I hope the radioactive fallout is not going to seriously threaten Tokyo.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. They must be in consultation with US forces
who absolutely must help Japan 100%
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
46. They were overwhelmed, on that point I could understand however..
the rumor is the USA offered help on the condition that they dismantle the plant and they - Tepco said NO, so there was a financial motive for the mess we're in partially.

Another rumor is that they have so much expensive nuclear material on site they will try to salvage as much as possible.
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Did you expect...
...them to say anything else?

Wow! THREE Chernobyls, Im surprised there is any life more complex than bacteria still alive in Japan.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. what was that supposed to Mean?
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. That it is...
...more a political paper than anything that has something to do with reality.

Hell even if GP's hopes for 400 PBq is realized it is less than 10% of what Chernobyl scattered over us - yet it is three times worse?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. so you Claim this Article is just Political Hype
I think it's a good thing to be skeptical but so far most skeptics on this board have been proven wrong as time goes on... I have more faith in Green Peace than say CNN.
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. How would...
...you frame it? 400 PBq, GP's own figure, is about -1% of Chernobyl in absolute radiation terms ( my first estimate was off by a fator of 10, sorry ) yet it is supposed to be - not just a seven but three sevens! That is political hype. While GP can be more useful in some things than CNN I find the media to be completly useless in nuclear matters.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Now logic and math are not allowed. You must instill fear, panic, and push your agenda
while people will listen. actual dosages, ignore it. Data from 40 years of nuclear testing, ignore that too.

Maximize fear by using complex language to explain a topic very few people understand.


And if some person tries logic or math, they are a shill.

Name of the game. Can anyone find jane fonda, hurry maybe the china syndrome could be helpful here.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. The prefectures around Fukushima all have contaminated water
what more of a problem do you need?
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. You mean the i 131 that dropped back once it decayed
and was never above the level accepted for adults.. Or do you have a reputable link?

I am sorry, I just cant manage that fear that I am supposed to have. I mean except for spiders.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Cesium as well if you know, do the work to keep informed nt
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. I131 8 day half life. Got a link to C137 in Tokyo water, post it up
else you are mongering.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. CESIUM in the water, yes indeed

A minute to find on google if you really wanted to learn about it

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79683.html

The amount of cesium per kilogram of water was 1.6 becquerels in Tochigi and 0.22 in Gunma, against the limit of 200 becquerels set by the Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan.

The Gunma prefectural government said it had detected the substances for the first time since it began testing tap water for radioactive materials in 1990.

The education ministry plans to compile data on levels of radioactive materials in tap water from all prefectures once a day in principle. In addition, the ministry will start to announce levels in atmospheric fallout such as rain and dust.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. You left off the traces and safe part, not support a POV, so it got clipped?
traces of cesium have been also found in tap water in Tochigi and Gunma, the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology said, adding the levels would not affect human health even if ingested.
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
65. Perhaps...
...GP can frighten you with reports of radioactive mutant spiders?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
115. Oh yeah... that 'data' was REAL reliable...
hey...look at the increase in cancer around those sites...if you'd worked for the tobacco industry you'd be saying right ehre right now that there's no proof for the link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.

You're just plain wrong. And we know it. Your posting pics of H bombs or talking about studies performed by the very folks who caused all this are not going to change any minds around here, pal.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. No the data on paper is real. Fear is imagined
dismiss it all you want. I'm a shill, I'm a bad bad man..

Really the data was written up in 1973 in the NEJM. My bet is the Incident in Japan is much less severe than the detonation of nuclear weapons in the open air. I mean its just a hunch.

That was not an H bomb. I was a single stage Uranium Gun Device.. 50 LBS of HEU and all the dirt became TONS of highly radioactive fallout.

You know, not a fear driven event. What I'm saying is there is real data collected that could be used to form real opinons based in observed fact.

But I guess the fish are all going to die, nuclear winter is upon us, and godzilla will kill everyone in japan. (godzilla being supermassive radiation doses)
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't work around here as
you'll find out. This frickin mess is incredibly DEADLY. Even the Japanese government and the American Government have stated that, so you're a Minority of One. Congratulations...
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. Its so lethal no one has died yet.. Amazing
but hey be sure to get extra KI for pets. I mean when the death cloud gets here who could carry on in the post apocalypse without fluffy..

Here is a hint 50 guys running around that plant and none are dead. 3 have beta burns from <200msv exposure. Assuming they die thats 26997 less than the tsunami.

Pretty impressive. But hey because people cant see it and dont understand it, fear it.

Sorry I did not sleep through university physics so when 12000 times normal sounds scary to many 12000 times 300 decays an hour is not a whole lot.

Sounds scary though thats what is important. Hey did we withdraw the troops and close the embassy yet?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #124
144. Hey...
You have a lot to be sorry about...I bet you sleep well at night...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #144
152. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #124
148. Why the continuing assholish mockery of anyone who has concerns about the nuke plant situation?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'll Take their Word for it, Since they Have More Respect for Life Than Most Others
especially those shilling for the nuke industry...blech.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Exactly, Greenpeace respects and fights for life nt
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. Press Release: Greenpeace statement on radioactivity in food and water
Greenpeace statement on radioactivity levels in Japans food and water
On this page
Press release - March 23, 2011
Tokyo, 23 March 2011: Greenpeace responded today to reports of increased radiation in food from areas surrounding the Fukushima/Daiichi nuclear plant, and the detection of radioactivity in the Tokyo water supply by calling for more effective protection of public health an immediate and transparent availability of information.

This alarming rise in reports of radioactive contamination in Japans food chain and water supply once again demonstrates that the governments constant reassurances and downplaying of the Fukushima nuclear crisis and risks public health are at best unreliable, said Greenpeace energy campaigner Dr Rianne Teule.

A few days ago, Tokyo Metropolitan Government stated that radiation levels had decreased in the city, yet today warns that babies should not be given Tokyo tap water. The authorities may be trying to brave about the current crisis by trying to avoid causing panic, but are they risking peoples health in the process?

The Fukushima disaster once more demonstrates that it is impossible to guarantee public safety in the event of nuclear accident, continued Teule. Over the last two weeks, weve had inconsistent and unclear information from Japanese authorities, and often contradictory advice from international nuclear regulators.

Any attempt to throw the nuclear industry a climate change lifeline in the wake of the Fukushima crisis is a dangerous deceit. The only smart response to this nuclear wake up call would be for governments around the world would be to heavily invest in energy efficiency and to redouble their efforts to harness safe and secure renewable energy sources.

ENDS

For further info:

Greenpeace International Press Desk Hotline +31 (0) 20 7182470
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. Better develop a level 8.
Cause this one's not over by a long shot.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. THAT is the scary truth...
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. +1
I think so too...and judging by the glacial pace the truth is getting out, the real tragedy will be the potentially hundreds of thousands of folks that will have been unnecessarily placed in harm's way..
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. When the US called for a 50 mile radius and moved their ship out to sea,
I knew the gig was up. So sad that 100,000+ were subjected to potential harm because the government wanted to save face or 'avoid panic' or whatever the fuck they were doing.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. it's unforgivable....
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. In these disasters, you can't listen to what they say; you have to watch what they do.
Because the public will ALWAYS be lied to, and the people who know the truth will react sensibly.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yes, that is the expected protocol for a nuclear emergency
It has to be downplayed or havoc results. When they reported on the drinking water the bottled water sold out immediately for example. People hoarde things.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Fear fear. And more fear. Nuclear powered vessels have radiation
safety systems that can not function with background decays. Like you smoke detectors right. Just because you burned the toast does not mean your home in engulfed in flames.

They can not (in normal situations) override these systems. So they moved.

In all the bullshit is the truth, like a kernel of corn in the vast turd that the media presents us.. Sad.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Urban Prairie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
50. Yes, I agree, this is a grave situation in and for Japan
Edited on Fri Mar-25-11 05:17 PM by Urban Prairie
I am now ashamed to admit that I was quite angry at and envious of their nation for competing very successfully vs my hometown's base industry for many years, believing that their vehicle manufacturers had an unfair advantage over ours, due to lower legacy costs and being fully supported and protected by their government (even though I have never worked directly or indirectly for any of the domestic vehicle manufacturers here), but the Japanese people certainly and obviously do not deserve this unimaginably devastating and ongoing triple catastrophe.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
25. OMG OMG Well to hell with the 27,000 dead.. KI tablets
check. Lead lined bunker , check. 30,000 MREs, check. 20,000 rounds of 556 nato and m16 rifles. check.


Damn, I guess I am covered for zombies and the nuclear apocalypse.. Where is that copy of "the road", oh hear it is, underneath this dead person killed in the tsunami I was using to make political points and scare stupid people.. If I stack a few more of these corpses maybe more people will hear my and believe my agenda.. Strike while the iron is hot.

5 dollars for the first person who can tell me how many nuclear weapons were detonated in the US south west...
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Hundreds of thousands were victims of Chernobyl
so this has the potential to be a much greater tragedy than the earthquake/tsunami

Estimates will be high for cancer, that's for sure
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. yeah, so far exactly 27,000 less than the tsunami.. Potential
is not fact. Why dont you start with the data from these "nuclear accidents" to frame in the fear. If you blow the fear factor beyond the actual results from these events you loose credibility.

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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Fukushima radioactive fallout nears Chernobyl levels
Japan's damaged nuclear plant in Fukushima has been emitting radioactive iodine and caesium at levels approaching those seen in the aftermath of the Chernobyl accident in 1986. Austrian researchers have used a worldwide network of radiation detectors designed to spot clandestine nuclear bomb tests to show that iodine-131 is being released at daily levels 73 per cent of those seen after the 1986 disaster. The daily amount of caesium-137 released from Fukushima Daiichi is around 60 per cent of the amount released from Chernobyl.

more: http://networkedblogs.com/fRZfQ
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
129. Based on reverse engineering done in Austria. Here is the LIVE real radiation in Tokyo
sorry it is not derivative data (some half ass guess), reality will have to suffice. Sorry is does not support "the road" crowd's position.

hint, its not 900msv an hour..

This is real it has no agenda.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. What a calloused fucking post.
:puke:
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. The pro-nuke squadron are messengers from a god named GM nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Yep, sorry, the facts do not support the fear. I am so tired of
the bullshit. You know how many people on facebook are posting about looking for KI? I mean it is difficult to tell them they are morons..

NO ONE HAS DIED FROM RADIATION. NO ONE HAS RECEIVED a fatal dose. Little sally has not had her thyroid fried.

The fear mongers should start here and work down. they cant blow the fear load beyond the reality of this and expect anyone other than the sadly stupid to believe them.

400 miles from LA 250KT shot. Little fission happening here.

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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You are not staying on topic, this post is about raising the Level to 7
all your garbage about iodide pills is irrelevant to the fact that the Japanese govt. has rung the alarm and IAEA will raise to level 6 soon if no 7
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. And the total dead or maybe the total dosed with more than 100msv?
is equal to how many from this event.. FEAR, guess it has already done its mind killing.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. STOP SPAMMING THE THREAD PLEASE
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. So I am confused.
Because I am in disagreement I am spamming a thread? I missed that little mod icon thing after you name. Yours is stealth mode mod?

If it is against the rules I assume someone would PM and say, hey, dont post about dosages.

There should be one person asking questions like what is the background dose in Tokyo in msv? 100, 500, really why the apocalyptic acceptance.

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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Look up the definition of spamming.
Enjoy your stay. :hi:
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
71. I got spammed to when i dared mention nuclear power isn't our best bet
I totally got chewed up too. I feel for ya!
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Some may have received a lethal dose. It wil just take time for the
cancer to come. ANyway, you are a busy couple of days for a little troll, keep at it.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. No you get a 2 - 5sv dose it does not take days to show symptoms.
you get a dose of i 131 it does not take days to kill your thyroid. You think all the reporters running around japan with geiger counters just missed that lethal dose?

Yep, sorry that promoting the OMG agenda is considered trolling. I will be quite happy to STOP posting data on nuclear testing if anyone asks (mods)..

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
64. Oh bullshit. Your thyroid may be killed within a few days but it takes longer to show any symptoms
of hypothyroidism. Can you show us that everyone in the area is getting TSH, T3, T4 blood tests done every day? No? Then they could have dead thyroids yet not be showing symptoms yet.

And yes, I speak not only from health care experience but personal experience.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #64
73. Guess they cant do reuptake studies in Japan. No PET scanners..
yeah they are all walking dead men.

I dont have to show you that data because I am not posting dire apocalyptic data.

Here is an informed opinion. Whatever happens there will be less than the nuclear testing in NV. Agree?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #73
83. First you say "none", now you say "all" when shown some may be hypothyroid now
Why do you do this?

"No one has had their thyroid nuked!" How do you know, have they been tested because it takes some time to show it, even with blood tests. "they are all walking dead men".

Here is an informed opinion. People will be affected, have already been affected. I have no need to compare to NV nuke testing as am talking about the current situation in Japan.

You have to show no data, can simply attack again. Gotcha.

EDUCATE yourself
http://www.endocrinologist.com/Radioactive.html
After the Treatment

Symptoms of the disease will improve slowly, beginning about two weeks after the treatment. Muscle strength improves, tremors and irritability lessen, heat intolerance improves, and sleep is more sound.

To prevent recurrence of the disease, enough radioiodine is commonly given to cause an underactive thyroid within six to 12 weeks following treatment. Once the thyroid becomes underactive, a single daily pill of thyroid hormone, T4, must be taken for life. Although most patients are completely cured, a few people will need a second treatment. Even if thyroid function returns to normal after radioactive iodine, there is a high likelihood that the thyroid will eventually become underactive.

Therefore, people treated with radioactive iodine must remain under the care of their doctor indefinitely.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR601... -
If you were treated with sodium iodide I 131 for an overactive thyroid, your doctor may want to check the level of thyroid hormone in your blood every 2 to 3 months during the first year, and once a year thereafter. This is to make sure that your thyroid has not become underactive.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #83
106. Umm the NEJM published comprehensive data on the NV tests
and their real implications. Those may be a little less than this incident. But hey go big or go home, maybe this event is like chernobyl and the nuke tests all in one..
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #73
110. Nope
And I'm a downwinder.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #110
130. And you are a real datapoint is studies published in 1973
in NEJM discussing the health impacts of radiation at given dose levels. Reality is in that data, fear, ignorance, and agenda bias is in the responses of many.

Not dismissing you as a "number" I'm sure you are a nice person. However your existence alone should serve notice to the OMG fear people that there is reality to base opinions on.

I would speculate that the events in japan are less than detonating dozens of nuclear weapons over the US.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #130
149. I don't know the specific study but I was gestated and born in Beatty Nevada
and was born in the last year of the group of people who are being compensated. So, yeah, I'm a downwinder. I hope and I pray that the events in Japan are far less. I want that to be the case. The rather interesting thing I got out of my research on all of this is that nowadays, I live near Hanford. So, that kind of puts things in perspective.
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #73
147. What's your point?
We still don't know how much damage to health was done because of the nuclear testing in NV.

Public education, awareness, and involvement are necessary because the health effects of above-ground nuclear weapons testing in the 1950s have still not been fully disclosed by the U.S. government even though tens of thousands of people are affected. In 1982, Congress directed the Department of Health and Human Services to assess the effects of Iodine-133 exposures from above-ground nuclear weapons tests conducted between 1945 and 1962. Results of that study were released in 1997, only after pressure was brought by ANA and other organizations.

Although U.S. nuclear tests were conducted in Nevada, recent studies confirm that fallout from the tests resulted in significant and potentially harmful radiation exposures in many communities all the way to the Eastern seabor
http://www.sric.org/nuclear/docs/health.html

You act like the nuclear testing in the southwest was all good, no health problems, no long term effects.

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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #147
153. after 60 years I thing someone bought a clue.
NEJM for example has a few ideas on the topic. Maybe the japan OMG people can scale down from the nuke tests.

Yeah whatever it yielded is more less than japan?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. bombs + guns - Timmy McVeigh was into that nt
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Yes, I am a domestic terrorist because I dont agree with the OMG meme..
wow, now i guess my "spam" is horrible and i should be banned, but that post is ok..
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. No it helps the fear mongers adjust their predictions..
it is important for those predicting a apocalypse to review the numbers collected in the NEJM in 1973 so they have an upper bound. Running around screaming the world is ending is not conducive to credibility.

Basing the upper bounds on the medical disposition of men who ran into a mushroom cloud would be the top end.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. Has "little sally" had daily levels of tsh, t4 and t3 checked? No? Then how the fuck do you know
her thyroid hasn't been nuked? Seriously. Do you seriously believe that a thyroid dies and suddenly you show signs of being hypothyroid? For all the condescending posts you have posted you seem to have missed that little fact.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. I believe that async reuptake and residual I in urine
would show data that would allow actual dose calculation. And by believe mean know people who designed the systems that measure these things.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. well, brookbrew
A natural force is what killed the 27k you are using to support your protection of the nukes.

Nukes are something we can control, unlike the natural forces.

Nukes will kill many people if we don't stop them now.
And your shameful use of the dead, is, well, shameful.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I agree, except we can't actually control nukes.
Edited on Fri Mar-25-11 05:07 PM by tekisui
We only fool ourselves for extended periods of time.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. Yep, so it is cool when using the dead is for a "good" agenda.. FEAR
fear and the spreading of fear. Sorry I sat through enough university level physics that the bullshit does not grok.

SO yeah, when the core explodes in the air and blows all over japan, the problem is then Chernobyl. Until then, its just not.

so one more time, how many people have been exposed to more than 1sv maybe 100msv? no no answer, because there is NO DATA supporting it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. heh
The radiation from nukes is deadly. It may take a few weeks, months, years even.
And you know that, right?

The radiation from nukes is un-natural and the hiding of the impacts of radiation releases is nothing more than more big business denial of the truths. If I were you, I'd stop supporting the nuke industry and it's deadly by-product.

You really are doing nobody but the nuke business any good. No one here believes a damn thing you say about any of this. Why should they?
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. Because they did not sleep through physics or called an Oncologist
to ask about radiation in humans. Or read the data the us published after dosing people with nuclear weapons. Because they did something to seek out real information placed in context.

Radiation was NOT INVENTED LAST WEEK. IF the doses are high enough to cause problems people will begin showing up with symptoms.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
80. Yes, they have been showing symptoms
Symptoms which nuke lovers have been denying.

They even say no one has ever died from radiation from nuke plants.
Surely you are not so stupid to believe no one has ever died because of radiation from a nuke plant?
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. Guess that means no C or I in the P?
you know, something that you use to calculate Gy..
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. You are?
Aren't you?

The nuke industry has gotten away with murder.
Now all the denials are over. People no longer believe the bs they have been fed all these years.

This situation is the final nail in the nuke's coffin.
Unfortunately many, many innocents will become sick from this latest escapade of the nukes willful disregard for life as we knew it. It is a very shameful occupation this nuke protection racket.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #89
102. Yes. I am hitler and stalin and a bad man. Because not defaulting to poop my pants fear
is an indication of being a shill for something.. Because we should all accept the apocalypse is upon us and the poor people of japan will begin to die by the millions..



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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #66
91. Hypothyroid symptoms severe enough to show after RaI take up to a month after exposure
People will begin showing up.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #91
103. Forward looking statements are disclaimed on
Edited on Fri Mar-25-11 09:41 PM by BrookBrew
all kinds of forms. Lets wait and see.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
121. showing up where?
to the washed-away hospitals and doctor's offices?

WTF, man...?
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. Umm, contrary to popular meme Tokyo is still functional
and are MANY hundreds of hospitals all over japan. Hospitals that have mass spec machines that can detect c137 in urine or run thyroid tests. They even have PET scanners, really nice ones.

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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. Umm...and all these evacuees and workers have been peeing in cups for your
boys in the industry? And even if they were, d'ya think I'd believe what your insdustry's putting out for consumption by CNN and the like?

Fat chance.

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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. My boys, you mean people who can parse fact?. live radiation readings from tokyo...
guess what its not glowing..

How much video have you seen of people being tested. If you catch a 5sv dose I'm pretty sure that those detectors may jump. More fact, less FEAR.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. How many? Quite a few.
The radiation dose received by one-year-old infants outside of a 30-kilometer radius of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant since Saturday's explosion at the plant may have exceeded 100 millisieverts, a computer simulation conducted by the government showed Wednesday.

''There are some cases in which they could have received more than 100 millisieverts of radiation, even if they're outside the 30-kilometer radius and in the event that they spent every day outdoors since the explosion at the Fukushima nuclear plant,'' Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news conference.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80575.html
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. SIMULATION and MAY. Filling in the blanks with fear.
here is a neat dosing chart. With these doses so high, we should start seeing acute poisoning now. Real events, not simulated.

Still not one case of a dead thyroid from I131 or C137 found in human pee at a health impacting level.

Again, right now Spiders are still more scary.

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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. Pathetic. We need to rely on MAY and SIMULATIONS because
it is dangerous and getting worse. You have a strange obsession. What line of work are you in? Where does your passion come from?
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
81. I designed CCD image systems
I retired out of that and dont really work. So I have time to post. I am not condescending to you, I dont have any issue with you ( or any poster except the one who called me a terrorist).

I just dont like the panic response.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. This is a GM GOD birth certificate LOL nt
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. A terrorist and a birther I am , stay classy(nt)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #76
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
100. Who, other than you, is discounted those killed by the tsunami?
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
109. I can't tell you how much better I feel about being a downwinder!
I will think of you every day as I take my thyroid medicine! Oh, wait,no,I won't. Look, we in the US are going to be fine. The Japanese are in a world of trouble and all of your statements to the contrary mean you either haven't been paying attention or you're a hired gun. If it's the latter, you can do better.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
111. Yes. What is that number?
Both for above-ground and underground 'tests'?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
113. Well, you should move there,
....and work on your tan.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. "Nuclear power should have had no future after Chernobyl...". --Greenpeace
That is the truth of the matter. And the fact that it was forced to have a future, despite Chernobyl--forced by nuke power profiteers and our lackey governments--led straight to Fukushima, which has already equaled Chernobyl and is speedily surpassing it as the worst nuclear disaster in history. And will the cold-blooded, murderous profiteering, the lies, the spin, the propaganda, succeed in creating yet more disasters, yet worse disasters--in the next 5-10 years, as so many of these older reactors, with corruptly extended permits, break down, or as the latest "state of the art" safety systems prove to be vulnerable in ways that no one bothered to imagine?

There is NO safety margin with nuke power. That is the problem. If your system fails, you don't just lose a "few workers"; you don't just lose the facility; you lose whole cities, whole populations, whole economies, whole countries. I guess I shouldn't say "you lose." The profiteers don't lose. They've banked their wads. They have the wherewithal to get out of harm's way--while they plot their investments in nuke cleanup contracts. It's everybody else who loses--their well-being and prosperity, their future, their health, their lives, their children's lives. It is the Dolphins and the Whales, in this case, who lose, and wide swaths of Pacific Ocean sea life, and all who depend on it.

The price for the rest of us is too high, for the profit of the few. We have put up with their "price" on so many fronts. THIS price is too high. We might as well have succumbed to "mutually assured destruction" in an all-out nuclear weapons exchange during the Cold War and just blown half the planet to smithereens, if we are going to do the same thing in increments in this slow moving disaster of nuclear power, where bits and pieces of the planet and their hapless populations get poisoned, and those portions of the earth stay poisoned for thousands of years. How many such poisoned bits of earth's biosphere will it take to rend all?

The risk truly is not worth it. We've done enough harm, as it is, with other pollutants. This we don't need. This one is NOT remediable! That is the difference. That is the problem. That is the outrage.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. These truths are what the GM gods want you to forget nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
51. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
70. Asking greenpeace about a nuclear disaster is like asking BP about their oil spill.
Somebody's getting lied to.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. bullshit
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #74
98. Their stated mission is to end nuclear energy.
Anything they say about a nuclear accident is going to serve that mission.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. so you say.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. Actually, so say the greenpeace groups.
I'm sorry if I burst some sort of bubble for you. But the greenpeace movement is very much agenda driven. Which is not, alone, a bad thing. They believe what they believe and construct their message accordingly.

What is wrong is to look at the greenpeace movement and consider it an objective perch from which one can understand nuclear energy or nuclear accidents. That's simply not possible.

Their stated mission is to end nuclear energy.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. Because the record of TEPCO honesty is so sterling....
:rofl:
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #77
99. I don't believe I ever said you could trust TEPCO.
I said that you can't trust greenpeace.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:44 PM
Original message
No, I think you got one word wrong.
Asking Tepco about a nuclear disaster is like asking BP about their oil spill. That would be the appropriate analogy.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
101. Exactly.
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Modern_Matthew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
79. Truth. Finally. Not sure why people feel the need to be contrary and downplay an obvious tragedy. nt
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. You mean the 27,000 dead people which could double
or the imagined tragedy of the nuclear apocalypse?
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Actually, the confirmed death toll is 10,066.
The search for the 17,000 plus still missing is being hampered by the little situation at Fukushima.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. that's the 'imagined' little situation in fukushima
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. I listened to an interview of a man whose wife, 7 year old daughter
and father are all missing. He is not permitted to enter the town where they lived to search for his family because it is within the exclusion zone around Fukushima. Very sad.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Ouch. Too much to bear
and I hope he has a lot of extended family. They are a bit better off that way in Japan that we are here, more community from what I know.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
104. Their all dead. Plus many who are not "missing"
but that is all the nuclear problem too?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #104
116. "their" all dead...so's the English language, apparently...n/t
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. Wow, a human spell check. thanks. Got any data or value add(nt)
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. that's not spelling, buddy...
that's just bad...spelling would be "They'te" or "Theu're"

You're clearly on a mission here, and I for one am tired of lies from all the industries. So...maybe you'll have an epiphany someday, if you get my meaning...
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. Spell check "corrects" grammar these days Herr Oberst
The only lies I see are from the chicken little crowd. So far today I have been told 5 died from radiation at the plant and 3 have radiation sickness.

Spell check does not put actual content in posts.

from a <200msv exposure..

But hey, fear is cool, we should harness that fear to push an agenda. You know who deserves to take an inward look is the agenda pimps using 27,000 bodies to push their shit. SO far not one person is dead from exposure to radiation. In a month or so, those fearmongers should look in the mirror and see chicken little staring back.

It actually discredits the anti nuke crown when the predictions made are so far off the scale they are absurd.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. Lots of Hitler and Stalin references...
I believe that I have to call out for some pizza, so you'll have to excuse me.

BTW, your last post was the most ridiculous post you've made, except for all the other posts you've made.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. Herr is german. Spelling Nazi's should speak german..
you want me to catch a ban because you dont like what I say.. How open minded. Hey here is a nice link to the live radiation levels in tokyo..

I mean unless godzila ate it.. (godzilla being the massive radioactive death cloud)

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2 /

Remember in a month to consider who spread fear and who spread fact.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #128
146. who the hell ever said I was open minded?
Not me. I've heard enough shit from people like you over the years...you think you're a pro because you can try to hijack threads on message boards along with a few others around here, but you know what? You can't stop those people from dying from radiation poisoning now or ever, and Karma is a big bitch as I've found over the years. One day, you will regret all this.

and BTW, illiterate postings by the likes of you are not spelling mistakes...they are ("their" to you) indicative of bad early toilet training.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #146
150. One dead person, thats you minumum..
feel free to hit that. Or not, but any person IQ over 100 can see the game. over 130 can see the moves. carry on.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. Why do you continue to say that because a lot of people died in the tsunami, the nuclear situation
should not be taken seriously? It seems odd.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Grasping at pro-nuke straws requires acrobatics
A regular Circ du Soleil
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Hmmm
Looks familiar, oh it's the GM bc! All one person or ...
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
131. It should be viewed in the confines of reality. there are decades of studies
that measure and correlate given doses to illness. None of them support the fearmongering going on.

The real impact of nuclear testing in the US used as a worse case should start the top end insanity.

Using the vast data to associate doses with health impact is responsible and logical.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. You continue to ignore or try to spin the compound effect of this tragedy
The earthquake and tsunami caused immense devastation.

The ongoing nuclear event has added to that by complicating/preventing search and rescue operations, expanding evacuation areas in already hard-hit zones, interfering with recovery efforts and physically and psychologically negatively impacting the people in the affected areas.

The reality is that the people and areas there are being impacted by both, not by one in isolation from another.

The continuing threat to physical health (current and future), psychological stability (bad enough to have to deal with on-going stress from aftershocks, but also from worrying if food or water or air that otherwise appears safe might be contaminated), livelihood and recovery (able to farm or fish again but unable to sell due to possible contamination) are all impacted negatively by this.


That is the reality of the situation.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. The reality is no one has died from radiation exposure. NO ONE
3 people got a <200msv dose and are being monitored. vs 27000 missing or dead.

You are aware that we dropped two nuclear weapons on japan. One a plutonium device. Now my history may be lacking but It would be wise for the sky is falling crowd to work down from the radiological deaths in Nagasaki (not the explosion) to come up with worst case prognostications.

I mean take it beyond that then everyone will be able to tell they are just making shit up.

Hey here is the background radiation in tokyo, dont freak out now.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. The reality is that people are being negatively impacted by this
and that resources which would otherwise be dedicated to assisting them due to an enormous tragedy are instead having to be diverted to coping with with an on-going additional disaster.

When people have been reasonable and civil in pointing out this impact, you have repeatedly and purposefully misconstrued, obfuscated and attempted to divert that discussion by posting unrelated pictures and outcomes (impact on L.A. from bomb tests when the wind blew east not west), erroneous charts you trumpeted as fact (when there was a disclaimer right in the chart that there were likely errors in it) and now a reading from one moment in time in Tokyo (purposefully ignoring that my post had been addressing much more than a one-day reading in one city).

And you do all that with a contemptuous and condescending tone.

Still not buying what you are trying so hard to sell.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. The chart is ACCURATE. It makes doses visually relevant.
it does not belong in a reactor building next to the wage regs poster. So provide me a NIH or DOE link that shows the minumims there innacurate, no, cant do that fine. Make a better chart.

It shows the orders of magnitude involved in the doses received by the 3 men in the plant vs a lethal dose. It is a visual reference vs the <>= notation.

Hey why dont you open the manual to your PC or MAC, in the back it says dont use this to run nuclear plants.

let me boil this down to a simple set of points.

Nuclear power and Coal generation are part of the system. Unless you want to reduce the global population forcefully they provide a base load. You can choose one or both.

The tsumami killed 27000 or so people, so far the nuclear event has killed 0. ZERO, NONE.

The link I posted is real time and live radiation levels in tokyo. Dont shit on the data because it does not support a meme.

AT NO TIME HAVE I POSTED DATA NOT ACCURATE OR FACTUALLY CORRECT, not once. In fact I have corrected several people's BS posts on deaths and exposures.

People are being negatively impacted by lots of things, Tsunami, massive destruction, and a broken power plant.

Just those negatively impacted the most were tsunami victims, you know the DEAD PEOPLE.

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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #137
139. give nuclear time. there will be dead people.
no matter how much you pontificate. no matter how much the industry puts into pr, the dead will come.

it's a ticking time bomb. 50 years is a blink in time. we are polluting this earth for hundreds of thousands of years with waste we don't even understand.

it doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter what i say.

nuclear is toxic.

enjoy that reality you live in.

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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #137
141. Direct quote of the disclaimer on the chart

http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/03/19/radiation-chart /

Chart by Randall Munroe, with help from Ellen, Senior Reactor Operator at the Reed Research Reactor, who suggested the idea and provided a lot of the sources. Im sure Ive added in lots of mistakes; its for general education only. If youre basing radiation safety procedures on an internet PNG image and things go wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Additional quotes from the chart author's blog at the same page:

Im not an expert in radiation and Im sure Ive got a lot of mistakes in here, but theres so much wild misinformation out there that I figured a broad comparison of different types of dosages might be good anyway. I dont include too much about the Fukushima reactor because the situation seems to be changing by the hour, but I hope the chart provides some helpful context.

~~~

Edit: For people who asked about Japanese translations or other types of reprinting: you may republish this image anywhere without any sort of restriction; I place it in the public domain. I just suggest that you make sure to include a clear translation of the disclaimer that the author is not an expert, and that anyone potentially affected by Fukushima should always defer to the directives of regional health authorities.


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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. Yep, its on the poster. However the doses match those on NIH and Doe
feel free to post counter data. YOu know content.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Already made my point. The author himself notes
he is not an expert and likely made errors.


It is not my job to have to search for information as to exactly what those errors may or may not be.

I'm not the one posting charts I say are "fact" or accurate when even the author states that may not be the case and stresses that he is not an expert in the field.
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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #143
151. Yep devoid of content. do feel free to post up DOE or NIH countering mine
but since you cant, post something puffy.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #151
154. Actually, there is plenty of content there
You appear to be trying to move goalposts yet again.

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BrookBrew Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. Yep, right to the actual radiation in tokyo, panic panic
omfg the world is over. oh fuck, wait, its pretty much normal.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #142
145. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
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