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Juan Cole: Top 10 Accomplishments of the No-Fly Zone

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 09:43 AM
Original message
Juan Cole: Top 10 Accomplishments of the No-Fly Zone
Food for thought from Juan Cole. I can only post four paragraphs here, so hit the link for the full 10.

===

1. The participation of the Muslim world in the United Nations no-fly zone over Libya has been underlined. The measure was called for by the Arab League, which has not in fact changed its mind about its desirability. Qatar is expected to be flying missions over Libya by this weekend. Other Arab League countries will give logistical support.

(snip)

4. Tobruk is no longer in danger of being attacked and its inhabitants massacred. On March 15, this eastern city of 120,000 not far from Egypt, with its major petroleum depot, was in danger of being taken by the forces of Muammar Qaddafi, supported by his air force. There is a good metalled road from Ajdabiya to Tobruk, which Qaddafis forces were using. Under ordinary circumstances, Tobruk is a place from which petroleum is exported across the Mediterranean.

5. Benghazi, the stronghold of the Libyan freedom movement, has been saved from being bombarded and conquered by pro-Qaddafi armor and air force. For a refresher on what kind of danger Benghazi, pop. 700,000, was in only a week ago, , look again at this Aljazeera English video and reread this report.

(snip)

10. Now that Benghazi is not being aerially bombed nor besieged by tanks and heavy artillery, the liberation movements leadership has been able to meet and announce a transitional governing council, in a bid to get more organized. I saw the press conference on Aljazeera Arabic. They underlined that it is not a declaration of a government and it is not separatist. Tripoli, they insist, is the capital of Libya.

The rest: http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/top-ten-accomplishments...

The full piece is worth reading.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. Re: Reason #4.... yay for oil!
God bless petroleum
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. No one should trust an article that gives only good news.
spin cycle.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Juan Cole is worth reading
in matters such as these.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. By that logic
No one should trust an article that gives only bad news, either.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Unless it's about Dan Snyder.
:P
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. There is no good news about Dan Snyder
QED
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Sorry, Professor Cole
I'm not buying. It's much too early to take the position you're taking.
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al bupp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for the post, sir
It's well worth the read.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. Glad to See Juan Coles's Thoughts
Despite all the snarkiness here, he is one of the best commentators on the middle East and is in an excellent position to evaluate the situation in Libya.

This is one of those things that's going to cleaned up in a few months to the benefit of everyone.

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
10. glad you posted this-
It is something worth reading and considering.

thanks.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. Those who forget or cannot see the humanitarian achievements already accomplished are being ...
willfully bind.

Juan Cole

Very well said.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
12. s/d
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 11:01 AM by oberliner
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. s/d?
Not familiar with the term.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. April 6th
Beers on me.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. s/d!!!
:)
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. It means self-delete
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 12:33 PM by oberliner
Response wasn't worth posting - so I deleted my message.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Thanks.
Good one to know. I self-delete roughly half as often as I should. Good to have a tag for the other half.

Cheers.
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
16. I Await The "Mission Accomplished" Banner
I eagerly await the "Mission Accomplished" Banner.

The US is supporting a "liberation movement"?

Or is the US simply trying to assure that civilians are not killed?

Or is the US trying to oust Kaddafi?

Or is the US after Libya's oil?
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
17. Interesting coming from him. Didn't he consistently trash Bush's Iraq policy? Or am I confusing
him with someone else?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Do you consider Libya and Iraq to be the same thing?
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 11:16 AM by WilliamPitt
Not asking to be a jerk. Genuinely curious.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Quite different actually. I respect Cole more if he sees the difference between Iraq and Libya, too.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Thank you
for the reply.

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. What does that have to do with this exactly?
Libya is not Iraq. There was no clear and present justification for the invasion of Iraq in 2003; there was clear and present justification for UN action in Libya based on the principle of "responsibility to protect" which was formulated to keep something like what happened in Rwanda and in Sarajevo from happening again (because the international community did not act then). Flawed intelligence about weapons of mass destruction in the one case, and a full-scale invasion and occupation by American and British troops; use of tanks, artillery, and military aircraft against a civilian population in the other case, which has thus far led to limited operations aimed at eliminating Gaddafi's ability to deploy his forces against the people of Benghazi, Misurata, etc. See the difference there? So saying "funny that he supports this, he was against what happened in Iraq!" is a fallacious argument which presumes incorrectly that opposition to military action in one instance means opposition to military action in all instances (which it doesn't).
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. As someone who has spent just about the last ten years fighting against the Iraq war,
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 12:07 PM by WilliamPitt
I am deeply appreciative of your comment.

And your sig. Nice to see it again.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
18. Juan, Juan, Juan. First off, it should be titled "Top 10 Accomplishments of the Air Raid".
a no-fly zone means we keep planes from taking off, period.

And as to point #4, why couldn't the Arab League have enforced a no-fly zone by itself? Goddess knows we've sold Saudi Arabia, Qatar and others billion$$ worth of shiny military toys over the years.
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. #11...has united dems and repukes in their opposition...nt
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. And that's good, joey?
Every other time Dems and Repubs agree, we have all seen it as a bad thing.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Not saying it's good...I suppose accomplishment implies good, but
it doesn't directly say good in the title.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. ?
I don't understand.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Not really
the left is opposed because they can't see any difference to Iraq. After all, Libya has oil, right? And Bush made a great show out of going to the UN, didn't he? So it must be exactly the same! (Even though it isn't at all.)

Republican opposition is probably more rooted in the fact that it's a UN-sanctioned action (right-wingers hate the UN) and that Obama is the president who approved it; if a Republican president had intervened in Libya unilaterally with no UN support, in a belligerent "America, fuck yeah!" manner, what do you think those Republicans who are presently opposed to the intervention would be saying?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. +1
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Both sides are against it...
Just the reasons are different.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Polls show "both sides" (Democratic/repub - liberal/conservative) are for it (at least for now)
by almost identical percentages. Liberals and conservatives do have different reasons for supporting it or opposing it.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. You got that wrong
I'm from the left, I oppose, and I know it is very different than Iraq.
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sad sally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. If what's been so successful thus far, as described in Mr. Cole's summary,
the United States should stop the use of military force, let France, who has a real strategic need for military dominance in the region, take over all military force actions. Since the President said our military humanitarian effort would be over in days, it's not "silly" as Mr. Cole says in his last statement below, for us to remove our aircraft carriers and demonstrate that we're not in this for the long haul. It would make the President's words meaningful and believable. With our big guns removed, it would give at least an appearance that the military intervention was over and the military-protected humanitarian effort could proceed. Would this mean "boots on the ground?" Probably so.

"The liberation movement at the moment likely controls about half of Libyas population, as long as Misrata and Zintan do not fall. It also likely controls about half of the petroleum facilities. If Benghazi can retake Brega and Ras Lanouf and Zawiya, Qaddafi soon wont have gasoline for his tanks or money to pay his mercenaries. Pundits who want this whole thing to be over with in 7 days are being frankly silly. Those who worry about it going on forever are being unrealistic. Those who forget or cannot see the humanitarian achievements already accomplished are being willfully blind."

Just what is a humanitarian military intervention?

Humanitarian military interventions such as the one under way in Libya typically face just two main obstacles. The first is, theyre humanitarian. The second is, theyre military interventions.

Humanitarianism means never having to say youre sorry. The wars it generates present themselves as peace by other means. Not politics by other means Clausewitzs famous definition of war because humanitarianism is, by definition, non-political. It aims for goals on which the international community can agree, and theres no political goal on which that illusory body can agree. It can only agree on non-controversial aims, such as saving innocents from suffering. Brandishing these, it huffily denies that its ends are political ones. Heaven forbid we should be blowing up all those things in Libya for the sake of effecting regime change.

more from CLIFFORD ORWIN, Were fighting War Lite, without leadership or goals
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/we...
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. He left out the one about the MIC cashing in on another war.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Is it a war?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Well, it's already cost more lives lost than the American losses in the War of 1812.
Probably more than the American losses in the American Revolution or Spanish American War. And, a lot more than American losses in the Gulf War.

It ain't a bar fight.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-11 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. Future accomplishment #11.
Edited on Thu Mar-24-11 08:00 PM by bluestate10
Keep pounding the shit out of Qaddafi until he runs to join his buddy Chavez.
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