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If Iraq and Afghanistan had not happened, how would you feel about this Libya action?

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:35 AM
Original message
If Iraq and Afghanistan had not happened, how would you feel about this Libya action?
Just curious. Still puzzling through my own feelings on this situation.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Still pissed off. n/t
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. I would feel no different
The Libyan situation is completely different from Iraq and Afghanistan, despite what plenty of people around here want to believe.
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Wait Wut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Ditto.
:thumbsup:
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. It seems to me to be more similar to the NATO/UN action in the Balkans
Edited on Tue Mar-22-11 09:39 AM by The Velveteen Ocelot
undertaken by Clinton in the '90s than to Iraq/Afghanistan. Of course, the Republicans opposed that, accusing Clinton of using the Kosovo intervention to divert attention away from l'affaire Lewinski.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. I agree with you. It seems most similar to the action in the Balkans.
I was in favor of both of actions, but a lot depends on the motivation. It seems to me that if liberation is truly the motive, the first thing Obama would do is recognize the provisional Iraqi government the way France did. The fact that this didn't happen makes me very suspicious of a not-so-hidden neo-colonial agenda.

I don't compare it with Iraq or Afghanistan because they are completely different situations.
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. hmmm...let me remove the last 10 years of history from my mind...
can't do it
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. I hate double standards period.
There are lots of countries where the people are oppressed, suffering,
and being killed.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. So, we either intervene in all or none?
That makes no sense.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. This funnels funding away from troops on 2 war fronts.
Yes,i realize we are leaving Iraq. We are still there.
We are still in Afghanistan. My kid saw 2 Marines killed last month.
I CAN"T separate the two.
we'll f&ck the kids over fighting our other fiascos to launch a shiny object at a new target.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
7. Interesting question -- does "forgetting" that history clarify one's thinking or muddy it?
The point of examining history is to learn from it, but it's also possible to draw the wrong lessons.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. the picking and choosing of whom to "help" is curious
Darfur? nope
Libya? in a heartbeat


What does one have that the other doesnt? Military strategical significance, and oil. The other, a genocide of black people.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. That's somewhat of a myth.
"Since 2004, the United States has spent more than $15 million to airlift 11,400 peacekeepers and their equipment to and from Darfur and has provided more than $100 million to train and equip those forces, according to a White House fact sheet. Much of this support is coordinated through the State Department."

http://www.america.gov/st/peacesec-english/2009/January/20090115132552dmslahrellek0.9125025.html

You could argue we didn't do enough and I'd have to agree. But the logistics are completely different, which has at least something to do with the scope of our involvement.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. what about Yemen, or China, or Bahrain, or (insert down trodden country with mean ruler here)
but the #6 oil producer, BOOM, we're there in no time flat.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. You're right, not going to argue
merely point out that a ground war in Darfur is a whole different game than enforcing a no-fly zone.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Incidentally
I believe I saw a report very early on that some British special forces had been captured inside Libya, long before talk of a no-fly zone.
If true, military action had already been initiated by the Brits. I'm not convinced this is a humanitarian action in the least. It's quite possible that those SF were arming and organizing the rebels.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Or guarding oil interests
There's a lot of expensive American/British equipment on Libyan soil.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. The report
said they said they were trying to make contact with the rebels.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. No matter

The history of US imperialist aggression goes way back and the 'humanitarian' fig leaf is well used.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. Not only did Iraq and Afghanistan happen
they're still happening. To me, this looks like another quest for oil. Maybe not ours, but certainly Europe's. You now have three civil wars going on which we are stuck in the middle. The money, resources and simple distraction from our own problems is immense. Even if I supported military action of any kind, which I don't, I would still have a hard time with this.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. probably similar to how I felt about Kosovo- terrible, but
unable to simply say "it's not our problem".

I marched against the first Gulf war with my children in our state capitol. There was just a small group of us.

I don't believe war is a good solution to anything, but I supported Pres. Clinton's decision in Kosovo.

I think I'd probably have responded the same to this situation.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I think this situation is much more similar to Kosovo
than it is to Iraq or Afghanistan. I somewhat skeptically supported the Kosovo action and I guess that's where I'm leaning with this one.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. Since they are probably using the permanent military bases they built in Iraq as staging areas...
...and partial operations bases, that is an impossible assumption to make.

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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. That it is still a foreign policy failure and dictated by oil since their media is promoting it.
I'll get back after coffee. I value your conclusions.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
22. the same - we should stay out
I don't get what other wars have to do with it. Every one is different with its own set of circumstances. Getting involved militarily in another country's revolution is just wrong. There are many other ways to help if that's what you want to do as far as choosing sides goes. Taking a military part in their war is far too much involvement, and dropping bombs on the country sure as shit isn't any kind of help. Revolutions are ugly and bloody, some more so than others - that's just how they are - and any country should be allowed to have their revolution without military interference. There is no question whatsoever that when another country or countries involve themselves in a country's revolution there is an ulterior motive and there will absolutely be a quid pro quo. With even a modicum of research it's as obvious as can be that the West has gotten involved militarily in Libya's revolution because of the oil and the billions of dollars wrapped up in it. The West requires a stable Libya with a "friendly" government honoring their oil contracts and keeping the oil flowing.



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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
24. had the government not just spent 3 months telling me how broke it is
I know I'd feel a lot better. But it did. The 180 degree change in availability of funds by our current government has left me dazed. I'm too dazed to think back to Iraq or Afghanistan :)
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's unconstitutional.
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Travelman Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. Exactly the same.
It doesn't really matter whether Iraq, Afghanistan, and anything else is going on, because those have no effect on the reason I think we should have left Libya alone. We would not somehow know who these people are that we're siding with just because we weren't in Iraq or Afghanistan.
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