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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:23 PM
Original message
We just managed to avoid another Sarajevo
Ghaddafi literally had sent columns of tanks and heavy armored vehicles to the city of Benghazi with a population of over 650,000 people to retake it. This was going to be another Sarajevo. Except that this time we acted right before it happened. Tens of thousands of lives were spared.

That is a pretty significant in my opinion.

Yet we are inclined to discuss how much a cruise missile costs. Look at the big picture folks.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Khaddafy's tanks will have to scatter,not gather,and then get picked off.
Or surrender.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. unRec
That is a terrible comparison
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Care to explain why?
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You first
Explain why you made the comparison
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Yea because Ghaddafi was going to put a siege to the city and shell it endlessly
Unless the people came out and surrendered. We are talking about a city with a population of 650,000 people. Tanks were right outside the city. I do not see how you are not getting the point.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. You are pretty good at predicting the future
Only I don't believe you or anyone can actually do that.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yeah,the tanks gathered around Benghazi by sheer coincidence.
Nothing to do with Kadaffy's order to show the city no mercy.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Tanks gathered around the city means he was fighting the rebels
and of course he would fight them in the city.

It does not mean he would slaughter everyone in the city. You can't simply say you know he would do that because you absolutely don't know.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yes, we will never ever know for certain if he would have.
But we can know for certain that he did not.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Excellent point.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Here's one audio report:
http://audioboo.fm/boos/308051-lpc-from-benghazi-when-p...

Benghazi was going to be razed. Everyone saw the evidence. There's no reason to that that powerful of a force into a rebel-held city unless you intend to have a conflict.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. :facepalm
No,no it's not. Bush lied about what was there, we can see with our own eyes what Gadaffi was doing to his people.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
87. Yes, joshcryer, that is correct.... we know that he did not.
And I am thankful for those lives spared.

*I* think he was fully prepared to slaughter the city. Everything he has done up til now says to me that's what he would have done.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #87
146. And he said as much.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. He promised to go from door to door and closet to closet in his vengeance on Benghazi
I'm not inclined to rely on his innate humanitarian impulse, or sense of justice.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. So what? I thought he was liar?
You only believe him if he says he will do something bad, but don't believe him if he says he will do something good?

Do you seriously believe the man is the absolute personification of evil?
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. I believe him when he says he will be merciless; his fighting style suggests it.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. It helps that he arty'd Benghazi the day before and snipers went around shooting people in the head.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. You know nothing about his fighting style
except what you have been spoon fed by CNNMSNBCFOX.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Do you have any real opinions, or just pro-Gadaffi schtick?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Yes, I oppose the bombing of foreign countries
Whether it is Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Darfur, Serbia or Libya...

and I oppose it whether it is ordered by a Democrat or a Repuke.

My opposition to war supersedes my political party affiliation.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. You use your antiwar idealism to turn your back on people who need and have asked for help.
To me, that's really sick.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. You mean these people?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-03-21-Benghazi2...

"We only want airplanes, definitely no troops on the ground, especially American ones," said Mohammed Salama, 20, a medical student who lives in Benghazi. "We have seen what they do in Iraq, and we don't want that in Libya."
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. I'm sorry, when did we start the ground offensive? Sounds like we gave them what they wanted.
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
163. I thought the resolution was to enforce a no-fly zone
Mission creep on Day 2?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #66
82. Yes, you do understand they're getting exactly what they asked for, right?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #82
111. So far
But they seem to have a special distaste for Americans in particular.

Sure you can bomb our enemies for us, just don't show your american faces around here.

You really think these people are our friends? You haven't really been paying attention to the ME have you?
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #111
127. No one has said the rebels are our friends (that I am aware of)
there is major discussion going on as to the political/philosophical makeup of the rebel forces. They may well be unfriendly to the US if they are able to oust Gaddafi and establish control of the country.

My understanding of the mission of the intervention (admittedly, voiced by the PTB) is that we are attempting to stop Gaddafi from carrying out his expressed intentions to seek vengeance on the population in rebel held cities, especially Benghazi.

If it turns into something different, I will certainly change my mind.

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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #127
130. That's great that you will change your mind
But it will be too late. Our bombs have already been launched and the people we kill won't be able to be "unkilled"

This is why I DEMAND proof before I support military action... ANY military action ANYWHERE.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #130
136. The people of Benghazi will remain "unkilled," if that matters to you.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. It matters but it is not my government that killed them
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #138
142. Alright; I accept you hold your beliefs honestly, though I disagree with them.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #138
148. Alright; I accept you hold your beliefs honestly, though I disagree with them.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #111
132. Well, they HAVE seen what we HAVE done in Iraq, after all! nt
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
110. So where are the troops on the ground?
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-22-11 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #66
171. So, you are complaining because we are giving that man exactly what he wants.
Which is basically to say: you are upset that saving this man's life requires us to take others.

When the invasion starts, you can complain. Thing is, this time the U.S. is merely one part of a true coalition, not the driving force. So I don't expect that to happen, and dunno why you do...
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. I don't watch those programs; I stick with AJE, and with the tweets Catherina was posting
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 10:17 PM by Adsos Letter
they have certainly addressed his tactics; indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

It fits with the character of the man.

Edit to add: some reporting from BBC.

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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. If Misrata is any indication, it would only be a repeat of the ongoing past.
Not much to predict, really.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. the populace of Misrata has not been slaughtered
So yeah, if it is an indication we can predict that citizens of Benghazi wouldn't be either.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Misrata has not been completely taken, and has been shelled indiscriminately
No concern for loss of civilian life there, or anywhere else, if news reports are to be believed. And Benghazi holds a "special" place in his heart.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. Oh you're there witnessing the "indiscriminate" shelling?
please
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Cameras are doing a lot of witnessing for us, and the effect of artillery in builtup areas
is commonly known.

Please.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. post a link to footage of indiscriminate shelling shelling.
It's not common knowledge to me. common knowledge is not "repeated every 10 minutes on CNN"
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:34 PM
Original message
Neither do I watch CNN; and my artillery experience gives me some idea
of the problems and effects of using it in builtup areas.

Perhaps you should get your info from news organizations other than the ones you mentioned.

I'll post a link to the Misrata reporting soon as I have a chance to search it out.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
73. No it doesn't
Don't pull that BS. Your artillery experience does not give you the ability to divine how someone is using artillery thousands of miles away based on what some "pundit" tells you on CNN.

Post a link to some actual footage.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. My artillery experience gives me plenty of reasons to understand the
difficulty of using artillery in builtup areas; it's hardly BS, but a common topic of training.

You keep refering to your beloved pundits; I've told you, I don't watch them.

While I'm looking for my links, why don't you go ahead and check out Joe the revelator's links. There are plenty there to keep you occupied while I get around to searching mine out.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. You said "indiscrimate"
If you are saying that by using artillery in a populated area they are bound to kill some civilians then I agree with you.

That is a HELL OF A LOT different than intentionally killing them or not caring if you kill them.

It is just as much of a certainty that OUR bombs will kill civilians as well.

So if that is really you problem then you should have the same problem with the US bombing.

I do.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. 1950s artillery systems are far less precise
than 2000+ aircraft and missiles using smart systems.

You know these things CAN ride a satellite beam to a target, or worst, get programed before launch using GPS.

Worlds of difference and possibilities of civilians getting killed...

Now we also have reports that Qadaffi was brought in civilians into clearly military targets...

I have a very nuanced view of this mess... not either or... but I also understand military systems.

See those shells on the ack ack fire being fired in oh Tripoli? Where do you think they go when they fall down?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. Once again I AGREE that civilians will be killed
And I defer to your knowledge o artillery in this case.

I only dispute that Gadhaffis forces would INTENTIONALLY slaughter innocent civilians.

I do not agree that they are less humane simply because they are loyal to Gadhaffi.

However I do not agree with you about the precision of our bombs. Iraq is the ultimate refutation to that theory. However it does not matter for the debate really.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #100
106. If past behavior is precedent
they have.

We have had a lot of things going on, but I really sugest following foreign media to learn what is going outside of US borders.

Rape, cutting feet off, and bullets in the backs of heads are just some of the things covered by media that is not quite squeamish.

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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #100
116. Yet I served in the artillery, and you discount my experience.
interesting.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. I don't discount it
When you discuss the accuracy of various artillery.

I would dispute it if you claim you could divine the intentions of the person using it.

I have said that repeatedly. I am sorry you have poor reading comprehension but there is nothing I can do about that.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #119
131. I'll agree that intent is of mind is probably unknowable, unless verbally stated
at which point it can reasonabally be accepted (such as in Gaddafi's threats against Benghazi)

When firepower appears (yes, I said "appears") to be used in an indiscriminate fashion, and those on the receiving end describe what appears (that word again) to be indescriminate firing, with civilian casualties then, yeah, I tend to assume (I am using the word assume) that the attackers aren't particularly concerned with who gets hit (as long as it's not them).
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #95
103. And absolutely dependent on the training, skill, and concern for casualties of the Forward Observer
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 11:00 PM by Adsos Letter
and the FDC center (assuming they are even using FO's, and an FDC track). Arty also has a direct fire capability.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #103
113. Oh absolutely
and those rounds and how much damage they wil do also depends on what you chose.

HE is different than a few other rounds like oh phosphorus. Now that be nasty. (I wonder if they have that capability...)
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. I'm sure they have phosphorus; it's a common round, developed early on.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #103
114. ONCE AGAIN I agree artiallray is inaccurate
I don't think we should bomb an entire country because Libyas army may miss and hit some civilians.

The claim is that he INTENTIONALLY targets innocent civilians and MY CLAIM is there is ABSOLUTELY no proof of that.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:08 PM
Original message
GMAKI I got a qustion
have you ever done humanitarian work? You know WHO pulled out of Benghazi as this assault looked all but imminent? The INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS. I have... I was a Medic for ten years with a national society. I can tell you this... those boys might be uptight as hell (hell they are swiss) but they don't just pull out of a nice combat zone where they will be needed.

Go on, search for that.

If those people pulled out was because the reports of these attacks told them that the best way to help WAS to pull out and live another day, to later come in and assist survivors.

To me it was one of those huge red flags.

They have pulled out very few times.... rwanda comes to mind as well as Darfur.

I hope this underscores to you just how serious that threat was.

Oh and yes as a red cross worker I have been shot at in a perfectly well marked ambulance too.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
126. You have no idea what constitutes proof do you?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. Red Cross pulls out of Benghazi amid safety concerns
Geneva, March 17 (DPA) The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has pulled its workers out of Benghazi owing to concerns for their safety, as forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi made a push Thursday towards the rebel-held city.

The ICRC has been unable to enter Libya's west, as Gaddafi's government said their assistance was not needed, but aid workers did go into the country late last month from the east, where they were accepted by the rebels' transitional government in Benghazi.

The ICRC handed over to the Libyan Red Crescent all its food and medical supplies before its aid team retreated to the more eastern town of Tobruk, closer to the border with Egypt.

http://www.sify.com/news/red-cross-pulls-out-of-benghaz...

You could have used the google, but I fear this is not going to be sufficient to you. As I said, having been there, done that... if there is a group that just does not pull out is the ICRC, unless the risks are THAT FUCKING HIGH.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #114
168. Have You Been Following What's Happening on the Ground?
There have dozens, if not hundreds, of videos and ground reports from a wide variety of people in all parts of the country. For three weeks his mercenaries have been using live ammo on unarmed protesters. That is in fact what triggered the armed revolt. The US and international press, including Al Jazeera and Russian TV. They have shown bloody remains and large-scale damage to residential areas.

If your reaction to CNN is simply to believe the opposite of whatever they are saying, it might be better to follow a foreign channel online, as some people here do. Otherwise you will end up with some very strange beliefs.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
98. I trust that our targeting is aimed at inflicting the least amount of civilian injuries possible
it does the US no good to have Gaddafi able to provide the world with footage of civilian casualties.

Given your response to JTR's links I am much less inclined to do the search, but will anyway. I can already anticipate your answer, though: "those photos don't prove anything, what the victims are saying doesn't prove anything. blah, blah, blah." meh.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. Had you been watching Iraq and Afghanistan
You would realize your trust is misplaced
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #102
112. I watched Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe our military/political establishment
will be at pains to avoid civilian casualties, if only for the PR value Gaddafi could use it for with the Arab League.

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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. So you believe we will take pains
Despite the lack of pains that were taken in Iraq and Afghanistan, wars that we are still engaged in...

But you WON'T believe that Gadaffi forces would take those pains?

You are very selective and arbitrary about what you believe.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #117
133. Everyone is selective about what they believe.
And, no, I don't believe Gaddafi's mercs are particularly concerned about civilian casualties.

And, yes, I believe we are at greater pains to avoid casualties in this conflict.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. You think The tanks were gathered outside the city to bring doughnuts to the populace?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I got chills when I heard the audio of the reactions:
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I think there is a middle ground between donuts and genocide
Isee more than simply two possibilities as I am not a neocon.

That argument is exactly the one Bushies used to throw at me about Saddam leading up to the Iraq war.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:07 PM
Original message
It doesn't have to be genocide; simply indiscriminate vengeance on civilian non-combatants.
that falls somewhere in the middle ground, I think.
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
164. How do you tell who's a non-combatant?
Is the wife of a man who fights in the war a "non-combatant", even though she gives him a place to hide and stay?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. When the military moves tanks into position around it's own city, what's the fucking middle ground?
Enlighten me? Do you have faith that Gadaffi wouldn't use the tanks on his people? If so ,does that mean he accidentally dropped bombs on them?


You may not be a neo-con, but you certainly are not a progressive humanitarian.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. That he will fight the armed rebles in that city
You know, the ones with Jets and tanks?

It's a civil war and one side is positioned in a city. It happens all the time.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Which goes against everything he said he was going to do, and everything he had already done. What i
Is it like to defend Gadaffi? Does it make you want to take a shower?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. I don't really have a huge problem with Gadaffi actually
Not that I am pre disposed to defend him. It's really just US bombing of Muslim countries that I oppose.

That being said Gadaffi is probably one of the more progressive leaders in the region. The rebels are clearly more inclined to be islamist/al quaeda/terrorist types.

You will see if they take power, and they will fight us much harder than Gadaffi ever would.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Have you watched the news?
You know he ordered his military to bomb his civilians. Right?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. No I don't know that. got a link?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Start here
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. where and when did it happen? where are the pictures?
Hearsay is not proof.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Oh, fucking Christ.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. I've encountered this a lot. They make you do the homework then spin.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. It's insane.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #88
97. Yes I was called insane before
In the run up to Iraq after having exactly this same argument with Bushbots about WMD.

They mocked me and my requests for proof just like you are, they called me insane just like you are.

They claimed it was common knowledge that he had WMD. They posted link after link of oppressed Iraqis claiming he had them, of newscasters repeating those claims.s. They called me every name in the book because I refused to believe anything but actual proof.

I am saddened that supposed liberals now make those same lame arguments and resort to the same weak name calling.
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #97
169. Let's back up gmaki. You've got my support all the way, man. ;)
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. I didn't make him do the homework
I have seen all the reports of rebels claiming they were massacred.

I am asking to see PROOF. Sending link after link of rebel claims is not what I am asking for.

Show me some proof.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. What do you want me to do, give you a platter with a rebel head on it?
Nothing is going to satisfy you. You want to support Gadaffi for some unknown reason.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #93
107. I don't want you to do anything
Because what I need is proof. and there is no proof out there.

That is why you will never find it.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #107
125. LOL..oh, ok.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #93
165. Naw, that would just be "photoshopped".
"Some days it isn't worth chewing through the restraints."
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Shiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
161. It's pretty much gotten to the point where it's clear
that no proof offered to you is going to be enough. They could post video of Gaddafi himself firing a submachine gun into a crowd of children and old women holding kittens while shouting "I, Muammar Gaddafi, am in the act of murdering civilians!" and I have a feeling you still wouldn't consider it proof.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. They said that shit about Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood. Guess what Egypt did today?
Constitutional Referendum, and it's liberal at that. Fucking aye?
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
147. Gadaffi is probably one of the more progressive leaders in the region?
You're about as intelligent as a squirrel, but not nearly as wise.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #147
155. Thanks for the insult
Now do some research on Gadaffi, his education policies and his stance on the Quran and Sharia law. You might learn something about the aims of the rebels and why they want him out.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. They had no jets anymore.
They had two tanks, in another city, I believe Zintan. I'm not sure about how many they had in Benghazi.

He arty'd Benghazi for a day or two before he entered.

92 people died.

This was after Gaddafi called a cease fire.

The French fucking saved them in the nick of fucking time.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. 92 people! wow. That is about 1 hour of fallujah
It is a fight you know? people will die on both sides. Our intervention is only going to drive that number up... A LOT!
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. You have a strange moral code.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. No I have CONSISTENT moral code
That doesn't changed based on political party.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. This has nothing to do with political party. If bush was president I'd be happy if he...
...used our military to help an oppressed people.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Then you must have supported the "liberation" of Iraq
They were oppressed and Saddam was a "bad guy"

/I didn't of course.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. No one here supported the unilateral illegal invasion of Iraq.
The false equivalency I've been seeing these past few days is ridiculous.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. You said you would support the use of our military to suppoer oppressed people
Iraqis were oppressed and Bush used out military.

You said nothing about "unilateral" and "unilateral" has nothing to do with the "moral code" debate we are having.

Helping "oppressed" people works just as well whether it was unilateral or not.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. I believe all tyrants gloablly should be squashed, but that is not practical.
In the intrim I believe the UNSC and the R2P is a good stop gap until we do have a global government.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. I disagree and we'll leave it at that
I disagreed with Iraq. and I disagree in Libya.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. I disagreed with Iraq becaise it was illegal, I agreed with Libya because Benghazi was about to...
...be razed. Simple.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #83
128. You have no proof Benghazi was about to be raised
anymore than Bush had proof Saddam was going to use WMD's
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. I don't support going to war based on a lie. The Iraq war was never a war of mercy
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. I happen to believe this war is based on a lie as well
And until I see proof I am not ready to support bombing people.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. What's the lie?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. That Gadhaffi is determined to massacer his "own people"
That the rebels just want "democracy" and the right of self determination

That we are dropping bombs in a humanitarian way.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. What do you think the rebels want?
How do you think the civilians who have died were killed if not by Gadaffi, who has also not denied that he is killing his own people?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #94
105. I believe they want Gadaffi and his supporters dead
They have said as much.

After that who knows? Probably a much more islamic state than the one they had under Gadaffi.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #105
123. and that would necessarily be a bad thing why?
I'd much rather see them put on trial and then punished but I don't think that anyone would argue that these people have committed horrible crimes against their fellow Libyans

if a bomb or something took out Gadaffi, oh well

one less dictator and murderer in the world
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #105
135. whoops, wrong place
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 11:34 PM by Adsos Letter
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #105
140. Damn...wrong place again...
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 11:40 PM by Adsos Letter
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #105
143. And Gaddafi has said he intended to wreak vengeance on Benghazi
And yet you discount his words. Selective? Arbitrary?
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. *sigh*...I give up. The above post is in response to #105
:dunce:
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johnroshan Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #92
153. Please take a look at this.
Edited on Mon Mar-21-11 07:05 AM by johnroshan
A Libyan pilot deliberately crashed his fighter plane after being ordered to bomb protesters in the city of Benghazi.
The officer ejected from his jet along with his crew before the crash, according to a report by news agency Reuters.
His extraordinary action came as the country teetered on the brink of civil war as forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi pledged to fight for the dictator until death while protesters seized control of the eastern region.
Gaddafis rule is becoming increasingly fragile after his number two stepped down and the United Nations called for an end to violence.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359869/Libya-p...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359869/Libya-p...
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #153
154. Now think about what this report is
It is a news report, quoting a Reuters report, quoting a person, who is saying that a fighter pilot was told to bomb protestors.

I know you aren't going to like this but to me that is nothing. Where is the picture of the downed jet? What are the names of the pilots? Where are they now? Why did they not defect to another country?

It's just not much of a story and as far as evidence, it's worthless.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. I will say this for the French
it is ballsy to fly into a non sanitized area (full ground to air defenses) before they are taken out. Modern doctrine states send the missiles first to degrade it.

So yes, it was balsy and well done
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. And according to the news reports from AJE (whose reporters are in Benghazi)
the French first drove the attackers away from the city, where they then engaged the armor (although the artillery they destroyed was away from the city, but within range, already).
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Yes, I think the French want to show us how modern peacekeeping is done.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. They appear to have been careful in their targeting, unlike Gaddafi's forces. Please see my post #18
on how I interpret the armor strike.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
108. Oh, so the tanks were there for a show and shine?
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #108
141. No but there is more than ONE other use for tanks
Nowhere else would people automatically assume the tanks are for genocide. The MOST logical assumption is that they would be used to fight the rebels, not to shoot at civilians.

It's a WAR and both sides have weapons and are shooting at each other. The government forces are stronger and better armed and trained.

So what? they almost always are. the rebels knew that when they started rebelling. If they had broad support across the country they would have won as the army would have defected and took their side.

They didn't and they lost and it sucks for them. But it is not the problem or the responsibility of the US to determine the outcome.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #141
150. They started as peaceful protesters
Not as armed rebels. That's the difference here.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #150
157. They aren't peacful now
Yeah yeah things got out of hand and I know you are just SURE Gadaffis is to blame for the escalation, but you really don't know anything about it since we've seen no real footage of any of it.

Even if he did escalate it so what? it's a proper civil war now and not simply government forces mowing down unarmed civilians.

The rebels have heavy guns, mortars, tanks and even jets. and now the protection of the US.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Not only tanks, but artillery...
the film I saw of the destroyed armor following the French airstrike at Benghazi was of SP artillery
(looked Russian/Soviet; either 152mm 2S3 "Akatsiya," or the 122mm 2S1 "Gvozdika"). Firing of these type weapons into crowdwed, built-up areas, especially without competent fire control, is absolutely guaranteed to cause indiscriminate damage and loss on non-combatant life (there are such things as "smart" rounds, but I doubt libya has them).

Again, a tank is certainly capable of indiscriminate destruction, but the range of the 122mm and 152mm make such indescriminate shelling even more likely.

It would have been a very nast Sarajevo redux for the Benghazi's.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
137. LOL
:popcorn:
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. LOL. Weak sauce.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Perhaps, if this is mostly humanitarian
(and it is full of shades of gray)

We have entered a new state in International Humanitarian law, and learned the lessons of Darfur, more than Sarajevo

<------- very nuanced view.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Okay, you'll have to tell me the different lessons.
The world let the people of both Darfur and Sarajevo be murdered. The distinction I'm missing is...?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Taht we actually sent a force into Bosnia after that
and sent none to Darfur
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. That's my view, as well
Remember, these aren't Libyans fighting Libyans, either. They're a hired army mostly from other parts of Africa, mercenaries making war on the citizens of a country on behalf of a dictator most want gone.

Maybe the UN has learned a lesson. Maybe not. We'll have to wait and see.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm happy they were successful in doing that - the thought of Qaddafi massacring
more of his people is just horrifying.


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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bill Clinton begged Europe to go in with us. Begged.
But Europe was quite content to watch from the sidelines until the Serbs moved on to Kosovo.

We quite forget the charming Serbs these days.

People are saying it's Rwanda that preys on Hillary's mind. But she was in the White House when Bill was trying to save people from Serb massacres.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. i remember the masses exiting the borders. carrying there children... so so sad. nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
151. That was after the US State Department started the war
Itzbegovic was about to sign a three way agreement with Bosnian Serbs and Croatians over areas of ethnic influence in Bosnia (which wer remarkably similar to the areas we wound up with in the end), when the US intervened and convinced him not to sign.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. link? nt
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. +1
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. +1 .
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. Libya: Benghazi about to fall... then came the planes
The carcases of at least ten tanks lay blackened and twisted as the sun rose Sunday morning. An armoured gun turret had been thrown 30 yards through the air by the impact of air strikes delivered at dusk by French warplanes. It had gouged a deep wound in the soft soil and lay broken and useless.

-snip

It was an awesome and impressive sight. A day earlier, the same tanks had bulldozered their way into the city as thousands of refugees fled before the devastating assault. The fall of Benghazi seemed inevitable.

Now, rebel leaders hope the arrival of air strikes will herald a new phase in their uprising, sending mutiny through the ranks of Col Gaddafi's demoralised army and prompting a fresh wave of popular protests even in his strongholds of Tripoli and Sirte.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindi...
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. I'm sorry but tell that to those literally starving in the US. It's way past time we stop
being the world's police force. Just my opinion,.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Is there a reason why we can't do both?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. The French hit those tanks. I hope the OP knows that.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. I am aware of that but this is a joined operation.
It is pretty significant that the they started the operation just as Ghaddafi's tanks had reached Benghazi.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. Yawn
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. My, that's helpful. Screw you. I simply gave my opinion
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
67. So your moral system says that since there're poor people in America ,we shouldn't....
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 10:32 PM by Joe the Revelator
Help people in grave danger when they ask us for help, because they live in another country and it might cost some money?
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
101. Tis the DU way
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
40. K & R
:thumbsup:
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
63. +1
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
96. Yes we did. Too bad most of DU wants it to happen.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
99. 45,000 dead every year in the US because of no health care. 110,000 at Sarajevo, was it not?
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 10:57 PM by grahamhgreen
Who will pay for it?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. This is despicable.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. For what, wanting to save the most lives?
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. No, for writing off thousands of deaths because they aren't Americans.
It's fucking gross. Have a little humanity for fucks sake. :puke:

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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. You are the one writing off the largest number of lives, my friend.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. Oh yeah? Care to elaborate on that?
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 11:09 PM by Paradoxical
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
121. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. Obnoxious.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #121
134. If you think that's made up you obviously haven't read the news in the past 20 years
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #121
149. It's not about "glorify[ing] our fearless leader!"
it's about whether or not this intervention is both legal and justifiable.

It's a much broader issue than the personality of the president, or his political considerations.
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
139. Reading thread and WOW
There are seriously people here who trust Gadaffi. WOW.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #139
145. Yeah I was accused of trusting Saddam too
When I doubted the WMD lies.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #145
152. Not here you weren't.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #152
158. Not until now
That is why the argument is so surprising. I used to think only Neocons were capable of such specious reasoning.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. You accusing anyone of specious reasoning is laughable
I've read this entire thread and you've contributed nothing of factual significance, and managed to ignore, spin, or deny every piece of actual information posed to you. You've drawn silly false analogies between Iraq and Libya and disregarded anything anyone has told you that doesn't comport with your bias - apparently, you will only accept "proof" that confirms your preconceived silly notions that Gaddafi is a victim. Specious, indeed.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #159
160. Hurl all the insults you like
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #160
162. From the guy calling people who disagree with him "neocons" who use "specious" reasoning?
:rofl:
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
156. K&R
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
166. I posted this audio report in the thread but it's kinda buried, check it out:
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. What is that audio supposed to mean?
All I got out of it was the guy narrating said that the army "must have been adjusting their aim" just as they got hit.
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SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
170. Thumbs up!
A good analysis.
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