I'm Being Bombarded With Stories Of Horrible Employees Protected By Evil Unions

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I've had a very long and ongoing debate on my Facebook page about Unions and collective bargaining. I've been confronted by many of my right-wing friends and I've gotten support from a multitude of my liberal friends. The thing of it is, I have systematically shot down every single argument the righties have been spewing for why Unions are evil and we need to break them up. They're not even debating their talking points anymore, I've so thoroughly debunked them. But now I have a new problem. They've resorted to a final tactic for which there is no rebuttal: the "personal experience" (also known as "anecdotal evidence").

I'm currently being bombarded with "personal stories" about, "When I worked here, there was a guy who slept on the job, but he couldn't be fired because the Union wouldn't allow it," and "My brother knew somebody at his job who got drunk at work and bought hookers with his paycheck, but he couldn't be fired because the Union protected him," and "My second cousin's ex-roomate's girlfriend's hairdresser once had a next door neighbor who knew a guy..........." You get the picture.

I don't like anecdotal evidence, because there is no response to it. All you can do is point out that it's one story of an abuse of the system, in sharp contrast to the MILLIONS of stories out there where Unions stepped in and helped people who actually needed help combatting abuses of power by the fat cats at the top of the food chain. But then the person who raised the story sits back and smugly assumes that you've been bested, because you can't directly shoot it down like all the other arguments. I can't stand that feeling. And that's why I hate anecdotal evidence. And I suspect that's why they always resort to it: because they've got nothing else.

[ClassWarrior]

1. Just say, "That makes one. Got any others?"

Ridicule the anecdotes, like they deserve.

NGU.

[socialist_n_TN]

42. You can't argue with Urban Legends...........

But you can add that they're NEVER true.

[bluestateguy]

2. I've noticed it's a common technique of argument in debates about affirmative action

nt

[DBoon]

3. and I know perfectly good employees not in any union

who were fired "just because"

They worked for a manager who wasn't popular, so the manager and all subordinates were let go - regardless of their diligence and work ethic.

They said something the boss' nephew didn't like, so they were fired.

They were too old, the wrong ethnicity, the wrong religion, and were fired - and the company made sure there was no evidentiary trail that would allow an anti-discrimination case to be filed.

Very few firings in my experience result from incompetence or dishonesty on the part of the terminated employee.

Most firings stem from political reasons, often outside the control of the person terminated.

Companies will fire people in violation of the law, and bet that the individual will not have the resources to battle an army of corporate attorneys.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

27. amen sister (or brother)

I know perfectly good employees that were fired because, while top performers, they were over 50 and had a decent salary and benefits, only to replaced by younger, less well paid workers.

[DBoon]

39. for every slacker protected by a union

there are 50 good people not protected by a union who have gotten screwed

I have personally seen people terminated in violation of the laws. Corporations know that when it is them against a lone individual, the lone individual always loses

[raccoon]

55. ITA--in SC an employer can fire someone quicker than they can order a pizza. For no reason. nt

[Elwood P Dowd]

4. Just say this:

"Okay big guy, let's have a trial. Bring me your proof -- audio, video, pictures, and all other documentation. Otherwise, go fuck yourself!"

[Hugabear]

5. Plenty of priests and pastors have been accused of touching kids...

If they really want to play this broad-brush game, it can go both ways...

[An_Opened_Hand]

6. Getting this same line of argument at my work place.

Got so tired of it, I final just asked the person doing the same "anecdotal evidence" crap, if they thought all the teachers were over paid, unqualified, or doing a poor job? In this case it was about the teacher's union. The person backed up, yelling at me that I was putting words into his mouth, so quickly you thought he got whiplash. I'm going, from now on, to just ask if this applies to all the union members of what ever union a person starts to rag on. The kicker is that the above individual is in a union and has said he doesn't want to go into management because they could fire him at any time then. Some people just can't think beyond themselves and see the bigger picture, it seems.

[footinmouth]

7. As a former union grievance rep ...

I can say there is definitely some truth to their arguments. I used to cringe when I'd have to go into a meeting and defend a slacker. I can also say for every less than stellar employee, there are at least 100 dedicated, hard-working employees that you just don't hear about. I also encountered many civil servants who were being taken advantage of by management. I felt so good whenever the worker came out ahead in those instances.

It's not true that civil servants can't be let go. I've seen it done.

For every bad story they have, mention the many civil servants that get things right. Good luck.

[sufrommich]

8. Thank you for that realistic look inside the job of a union rep.

My sister did it for a while and hated it. She couldn't stand representing the same few idiots over and over again. What's important to stress is they are the exception to the rule and a very small minority of union workers.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Not that I don't believe you - but what union is that

Besides being very hard to believe .....

If you would have said "Shop Steward" I might have listened a little better

[sufrommich]

14. Shop Steward and union rep are the same thing.Where I worked, we called them union reps.

As in "man, you better call your union rep".Perhaps it's a regional thing.

[FreakinDJ]

15. Which Union - Which Local

#A101519

[sufrommich]

18. What does #A101519 mean? That's a strange way to identify a

local if that's what it is.

[FreakinDJ]

19. If you were a Union Member you would know

and you would also know those "Can't Be Fired Myths are Pure Bullshit too"

but I'm glad you confirmed exactly what I thought

[sufrommich]

22. What bullshit,Union locals are called "name of union" and then the

local number. What you wrote was gobbledygook. I've never heard anyone refer to their union local the way you just did.

[FreakinDJ]

25. Tell me - You don't recognize a card number ?

I mean your the one who identified yourself as a "Grievance Rep" or what I've always known as a "Shop Steward"

[sufrommich]

28. You asked "what union? What local? " and them you offered

you card #? I never "identified myself as a grievence rep". I stated that where I worked, we called them union reps. I belonged to AFSCME local 118 ,Council 25.

[FreakinDJ]

33. Out West the only Union Reps we have are Business Agents

but the duly appointed Stewards handle the Grievance Process between Workers and Management

I've seen Contracts/Shops where they had a "Contractual Processes of Discipline and Termination" but NO Worker was exempt from Termination. In fact I witnessed "On the spot terminations there". But they were working for a Very LARGE Corporation that applied the SAME rules and proceedures for their Non-Union Employees as well. So the rules and procedures were there to protect the Employer not the Employee from litigation

BTW: once we have "Bumped Tickets" and I've revealed my card number to you - it is customary to return the gesture

[sufrommich]

34. I think I've given you enough personal information,no thanks.

Maybe you shouldn't spend so much time trying to cast doubt on fellow union members simply because they don't agree with you.

[saged52]

20. I have never heard of a union grievance rep, either -

sounds very handy, tho, if there is such a thing. My husband is the head steward/v.p. of his union, there are shop stewards for each shop and one union rep for the overall union.

[FreakinDJ]

26. Thank you

[footinmouth]

52. I don't know what I find more discouraging

The fact that I can't remember what my union job title was from back in 1973 or the fact that so many people are nitpicking on it.

To clarify: Back in the day, if you were one of those people who abused your sick time, or didn't bother to show up for work at all (without calling in) I was the person who accompanied you when you faced your supervisor. I was the one who had to plead your case for not losing your job. I really don't remember what I was called, I just remember having to think of ways to help plead their case. It was a thankless job.

Fast forward to the 2000's: While working for the school district I was a "building rep". I sat in with people who were doing their jobs, but management persisted in trying to make contract violations. I remember one case vividly - Our contract allowed us 5 bereavement days for loss of a parent. One employee's mother passed away on Christmas Eve (which was a paid day off). The district actually tried to tell the employee that Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and the weekend were 4 of the 5 days. Cripes, can they sink any lower? The employee prevailed in every one of the contract violation cases. I found this far more rewarding than trying to defend people who were abusing the system.

I've gone way off topic here, sorry about that but I finally found a topic where I have some experience.

[kevinbgoode]

38. I did the same thing. . .

and yes, on occasion I had to defend a slacker in a grievance meeting. On the other hand, I also caught management intentionally lying on many, many, many other occasions - either about an employee - or their own unprofessional conduct.

I have never known anyone in the private sector who hasn't had multiple horror stories about their companies, no matter how many human resource-based guidelines were written or company rules existed. Everyone knows that companies readily work around their own rules whenever it is useful.

[footinmouth]

40. Yikes, I didn't expect any replies

Nobody ever replies to my posts and it's refreshing to finally see some.

My experience as a "grievance rep" was in the early 70's for please forgive my "senior moment" in possibly getting my union title wrong. My union was CSEA, State of NY and I worked for SUNY at Buffalo. Sorry, I no longer remember my card #. Did you actually think I was a fake poster? I find that rather insulting.

I left that job after 7 years and resumed my career in Civil Service in my local school district for the next 20 years. My union was NYSUT and I was an officer in my local chapter. I represented the little people, clerical & teacher aides.

I'm retired now. I'm one of those leeches on society with my whopping NYS pension of $1400/month. I'm paying $500+/month for the privilege of continuing my health insurance through the district.

Sorry you thought I was not a real union rep. I guess this is one of the reasons I have so few posts here in 6 years of membership.

My heart is with the folks in Wisconsin. I'm standing with them in spirit while they fight the good fight.

[sufrommich]

48. Don't let them get you down,footinmouth. The fact that some feel

compelled to question your union bonafides says a lot more about them than it does you.

[mulsh]

53. I'm a former steward who was the go to guy for terminations

at my work place. I, too, filed grievances for slackers but in nearly all of those cases we prevailed simply because the management failed to follow the rules they put in place. I've belonged to 4 unions through out my life and I've also been an a number of management positions. It is a very simple matter to fire union members - just follow management's work place rules especially the ones requiring documentation. As a steward when I pointed this little fact out subsequent to prevailing of course the management's response was consistently "that's too much work, we don't have the time."

By the way we union guys have a practice known as working the book. that's where you follow all of the management's work place rule to the letter. It's an effective way of demonstrating your dedication to the job and pissing off the management.

[FreakinDJ]

9. I never worker with a Union Worker who couldn't be Fired

The "Can't be Fired Union Worker" is the BIGGEST Myth out there.

Yes - they used to have those clauses in the contracts .... 40 years ago. But they are Strictly LONG Gone from the Union Agreements of today.

They have been replaced with Mandatory Drug Testing, At Will Employment, and Performance Clauses In fact in many, if the employer can prove "Willful Negligence" he is authorized to Terminate and Dock your pay

So NO - that hasn't happened for some 40 years now

[xmas74]

16. I watched union members

be fired and I've been around as a few were arrested.

It happens. It just doesn't happen as much.

[FreakinDJ]

23. Yep - The "Can't Be Fired Union Member" is a Right Wing Myth

I've seen $90K managers leave the office in handcuffs too.

If any thing because of all the Drug Testing and now Federal Security Clearances (TWIC) the membership is a lot more cleaned up then their Non-Union counter parts

[xmas74]

31. I watched a couple that

were arrested with felony abuse charges. (We worked in a mental health facility.) And I watched a few idiots fired who deserved to be.

Our union protected the rest of us that did our jobs but maybe didn't kiss up and managed to get on the wrong side of management.

[EC]

11. I've learned that there is always more to the story with

these anecdotal stories. Like the guy sleeping, maybe the company had no evidence that he was. But the same goes with private industry since most of them practice nepotism which protects non-qualified and lazy workers. I think the question should be, why do they allow their employers to get away with paying them little and no benefits? Make them mad at their employers instead of the unions.

[Bigmack]

12. Hey... it could be true....

I was on the Professional Rights and Responsibility team in a teacher's Association.

We were called upon to defend a few really crappy teachers, and a lot of good ones.

Problem was, the fucking administration NEVER followed their own multi-step disciplinary/competence policy. NEVER.

Teachers were fucked up, admin just fired them. We had to defend... even the two assholes who refused to join the association, but came bleating to us when the admin went after them.

In every case... EVERY case... if the admin would have followed their own policy steps... the shitty teachers would have been gone. We could not have stopped them from firing the teacher. And we're not talking about sexually abusing the kids, here, or any of the "cause" reasons for termination. They were gone in a heartbeat. We're talking about getting rid of ineffective teachers.

Step 1.. inform the teachers they are on thin ice... and why. Step 2... inform the teachers where they need to make changes...and how to change.. specifically. Step 3... help them change. Step 4... give them time to change. Step 5 ... warn them again, saying exactly what's wrong. Step 6... give them more time. Step 7 Last warning... very specific. No change? They're gone.

It would take about a year and a half. Everything in writing...

We figured it would take the administrator about 8 hours of their work to dump the teacher.

They NEVER did it.

I understand most/many private corporations have a similar policy.

[sufrommich]

17. That's a common story ,the admin wants the union to do their jobs

for them. I was on the executive board representing custodians and bus drivers in a school system and we saw it happen over and over again with a guy they complained about for years,and yet there was nothing in his file proving he ever caused them any trouble.

[TACstrat]

13. Ask them this ...

Ask them this ... "In your experience, have you ever met an extremely wealthy police officer, firefighter, teacher, garbageman, sewage treatment plant worker, heavy equipment operator, or janitor?"

[WCGreen]

21. How about that idiot president we couldn't get rid of because he

was a republican...

[ChoppinBroccoli]

24. Here's How I Responded

Well, that makes........what is it............THREE whole examples of abuses to the system? As opposed to the millions of people the Unions have protected over the years? Three anecdotal examples stacked up against accomplishments like: the 40-hour work week, overtime pay, the weekend (wouldn't exist without Unions demanding 2 days off every week), health and safety standards, etc., etc., etc. The bottom line is that we can all cite examples of the "bad apples." Would I be able to convince you that all cops are evil because I have a few stories about some cops who overstepped their powers? I mean, you make it sound like no Union member has ever been fired for anything, and we all know that isn't true.

In this country, we believe in Due Process and the idea that every person is entitled to a defense when there is jeopardy attached to a situation. I know this as well as anyone. The Unions provide a service to their members, and that is to provide that defense, much like I provide a defense to my clients. I'm not always successful (and neither are Unions), and many times, my role is simply to make sure that my client's side of the story is heard, and that his/her rights have been protected. That's what Unions do for workers. If bad employees are keeping their jobs, maybe there is more to the story that you don't know about. Or maybe the person presenting the case AGAINST that employee has done a piss-poor job. And that's why I hate anecdotal evidence. It proves nothing because nobody knows for sure WHY things happened the way they did (and that's even if we assume it's true--many of these stories are Urban Legends).

However, since it's Story Time, I have an anecdotal story of my own about the poor, downtrodden corporations and their tireless struggle to provide quality products at low prices and to scrape out a few pennies along the way despite all the roadblocks thrown up in their way. My grandfather was an engineer for Westinghouse until the day he died. One day, his bosses came to him and gave him a project. They wanted to know if they could remove two tiny screws from the doors of their electric clothes dryers. So my grandpa did a battery of tests and obtained his results. He went back to them and said, "You can remove those two screws from the door, but it will cause the dryer to break down after only 5 years." Now, bear in mind, this was at a time when dryers were meant to last about 20 years. The higher-ups ordered that the dryers start being produced without those two screws. Why? Because by leaving those two little screws out, they were able to save one-half of one cent on every dryer produced.

Now, I ask you, if my grandfather had dared to defy his corporate overlords, and out of a higher sense of duty to Westinghouse's customers, refused to make those changes, what do you think would have happened to him? He would have been fired for trying to do the right thing. And who do you imagine would have stepped in to protect him?

[upi402]

29. Fundie telling me that he can hate the WI unions despite

the fact that he's in a union -"It's 'different'. They're public sector, and I'm private sector."

Sad, he really does differentiate that way to justify it.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

30. Another Nice Response--An Anecdotal Story From The Other Side

One of my friends shared a story about how he worked for a company that got rid of its Union. He said that management came to them and promised that everything would be great, wages would remain the same, if not higher, and that nobody would be treated unfairly. You can guess how long that lasted. Once the workers voted to abandon the Union at this particular company, things were good for about a year. Then a bunch of people were fired for absolutely no reason. Then a bunch of employees started getting their salaries reduced. Then the abuses started coming hot and heavy. All the things the Union protected the workers from started happening. And the employees were absolutely powerless to stop it.

[raccoon]

56. Well, that's one bunch of people who learned their lesson. nt

[cilla4progress]

32. Maybe just counter it

with anecdotal evidence of your own? Two (or more) for one?

[patrice]

35. The statistical approaches suggested in this thread are the way to go.

People criticize statistics because they can be abused, but the fact is that a great deal of what we do, especially in business, is based upon statistical methods and descriptions.

If you were to acquire information about all instances of employees with unions, you'd find a relatively few instances in which a low quality employee was protected, a few instances in which a low quality employee was reprimanded to the max and most instances would be employees of mixed qualities dealt with in a variety of ways.

There's also the point that there are plenty of work environments with low quality employees, some of them even receiving relatively high salaries, and there is no union, and also no one reprimands the bad employees, seeing as unions are less common than non-union work places, I imagine the poor employees, no union, no reprimand condition is far and away more common than the poor employees, union, no reprimand condition.

[WinkyDink]

36. Tell them you have no reason to believe them.

[snot]

37. Tell them

ok, so unions aren't perfect. But the solution is to fix the problems and unionize workers abroad, not eliminate unions.

[socialist_n_TN]

41. Sure there's a response. Just say that no one can ............

argue with an Urban Legend. Capitalize it like that too.

[krispos42]

43. He's an anecdote you can use

My dad spend 30 years as a union operating engineer. He worked long days (sometimes, long nights) doing hard work year-round. He ran heavy machinery and ran it well: concrete pumps, front-end loaders, telelifts, excavators, etc. He was hospitalized after a 4x4 fell off of a building and slammed into his bare head; he had just exited the cab of a truck and had not put on his helmet yet. One time he slammed a dump truck into a bridge abutment because the brakes had failed and his choice was a concrete wall or a bunch of cars waiting at a stoplight.

After 30 years of this (and often being asked for by name) he retired with an artificial hip and a rebuilt shoulder. His knee was replaced last November, and he's still not fully recovered. He has arthritis. He was just about literally not able to work a daily job anymore when he retired last summer.

His pension? $70 a month for every year on the job. $2,100 monthly, $25,200 a year. Equivalent to about $12.50 an hour. Plus his Social Security, which he is now taking. He also gets his union health insurance at $400 a month.

:shrug:


The kind of jobs that have good pensions are often the kinds of jobs that consume your body as well. Ask your friends what is he suppose to do now? Get a law degree at age 62? Start a promising career at Wal-Mart?

[creon]

44. various comments

Union representative can have different titles: union steward; committeman; union rep; building rep, etc.

Incompetent employees can be dismissed for cause. There are steps that need to taken - 'climb the ladder' - for management to fire a bad employee. They have build a case and provide proof of incompetence/bad conduct.

There is a rule book - negotiated by union and management - that employees are expected to follow.

There is no ' the union would not allow it'.

[Uncle Joe]

45. Perhaps, they're not even real people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x589997

Ideas are universal, they're either good or bad, but that's the realm of reason and they're real, this would be the Internet at its' best, however anecdotes can be real or fake.

A single astroturfer; as exhibited on the link I posted can make up dozens of fictitious personalities with matching anecdotes.

Thanks for the thread, ChoppinBroccoli.

[bemildred]

46. Yes, I know, my God, some of them are lazy!!! nt

[jcboon]

47. Try this one

Which do you prefer: You work your ass off for $24 an hour with good benefits and the guy next to you is a total slacker OR you work for minimum wage with few benefits and the guy next to you has to work his ass off too?
You'd be surprised by how many people say they would rather work for minimum as long as the other guy has to work as hard as they do.

[warrior1]

51. as a state worker (recently retired)

I can honestly say, that yes you can be fired. I knew of plenty of people over the years that got themselves into trouble that called for their immediate firing. Some where having drugs, to stealing, workman's comp issues, you name it. If violate a law, yes you can be fired.

[PA Democrat]

49. Do they believe in group punishment?

Wait, I already know the answer to that question since they bought Reagan's mythical "welfare queen" as am excuse to punish EVERYONE on welfare.

[BobbyBoring]

50. One has to ask

If, the MILLIONS of Americans that have lost their jobs over the last decade were union, would they still have lost their jobs??

Wingers are great at inventing imaginary people for their anecdotal incidents. remember, there folks live in a black is white war is peace, gas is 50 cents a gallon world~

[HughBeaumont]

54. Republican Anecdotal Conveniences:

* The Friend(s) from Canada that have been a) wronged by the Canadian health system or b) forced to come to America for "life-threatening" surgery to "avoid the long waiting lists".

* The Friend who Came to America from Europe/Cuba/Scandanavia/Canada to "escape (insert Repub boogeyman prefix here)ism".

* A Friend who's a Small Businessperson (makes over 250k a year, naturally) who will have to either close up shop or fire his workers because his taxes are going up 3.6 percent. Of course, they seem to omit the part about the first $250k still taxed at normal rates.

* One or two scandal-ridden Democratic politicians (For an extreme case, see: Cuyahoga County, Ohio) who at worst commit either perjury or white collar crime, while overlooking their own party's majority of lying, warmongering, laissez-failing, tax-wasting and thieving gems.

* A poor person or persons (usually, minorities) they've worked with once who "gamed the system". Also substitute union member for "poor person", and it's the same story.

* "Welfare queens" they've seen or heard of, but usually can't name (see above).

* Someone they know (or themselves) whose health insurance premiums are going up "because of Obamacare". You know, because those benevolent private insurance conglomerates are perfectly innocent of profiteering and only have your best interests in mind.

* That mud-hovel, bug-eating, famine-plagued nation that "even the poorest Americans aren't even close to in terms of REAL poverty".

Any that I missed?

[WCGreen]

57. For every example of a horrible Union member....

I will give you a hundred examples of awful employers....

[hfojvt]

58. it seems to me

that you just now provided anecdotal evidence for rightwing perfidity.

People use anecdotes not because they are beaten in an argument and are flailing for a strawman to keep them afloat, but because - that is what they know, what they have experienced.

If you want to reach them, then you need to tap into other experiences - unfair bosses, dangerous working conditions, ridiculous CEO salaries, wage cuts and lay-offs, no benefit jobs, low pay, the three Musketeers.

Concede their anecdote. "If that happened, it is too bad, but no system is perfect. Think of some bad bosses you've had, and some low paying and dangerous jobs that you have worked. Think of how management gets so much more pay and bigger raises and is always trying to get people to stay late and work for free, or work through break. The only way for workers to get better pay and better treatment is for us to unite and stand together, just like the three Musketeers "all for one, and one for all".

The key to success is empathy, and if you can fake that, you've got it made.

[The Straight Story]

59. Tell them you understand, you wanted to fire bush for failing, but it was too hard to do

:rofl:

[Zoeisright]

60. Tell them to provide proof or shut the fuck up.

Or respond with your own made-up stories, as I'm sure theirs are. Tit for tat.

[Johnny2X2X]

61. There is no union here

So they just fired Jerry in shipping for being late 1 single day by 10 minutes (never had an attendance problem before). The next day the GMs husband started in his position.