I'm getting damned sick of hearing about how we brought Walker on ourselves.

[Jackpine Radical]

There were reasons that election went the way it did. It's hard to win when you have billions in out-of-state money pouring in & overwhelming you. I know it looks like the R spending wasn't that much more than the Dem outlays, but those numbers don't include the huge influx of money directly into ads, bypassing both parties. And guess whom those ads supported, and guess who they trashed. The attack agaionst Wisconsin began immediately after Nov 2008, and they won the first round.

This is round 2.

[KittyWampus]

1. Not unlike Prop 8/Hate. There has to be better organization on the Left and ways to get

the word out.

And I have to say this and get it out of my system. After Prop 8 passed is when DU exploded on that subject and yet BEFORE it did, there were very few posts on it. I searched.

And that moron who won Ted Kennedy's seat> it was AFTER the damned election we found out the damned woman running went on vacation and didn't actually bother to campaign.

It's this constant reactionary stuff on the Left that bugs me.

MEANWHILE, the Right has it's think tanks and Grover Norquist's weekly meetings coming up with talking points and willing drones repeating it endlessly on TV and in Congress.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Sorry, but there was huge voter turn out in 08 and prop H8

passed because of votes cast for it by those who also voted for Democratic candidates. The word was out, out out all over California, there were open demonstrations, much controversy about publishing the names of donors, the works. People knew about it, knew what it was, and voted for it anyway, while also voting for Obama/Biden and that is just how it was. California was organized and it was a huge, huge issue, all over the news.
In Wisconsin, the vote was down in 2010. In CA it was up in 08. Not the same thing at all. Willful bigotry on the part of active voters is not the same as voter apathy.

[bluestate10]

72. Some populations that vote democratic were conservative on gay right.

That is why Prop 8 passed. There is little equivalence between the passage of Prop 8 and union busting, other than both deny basic human rights to people looking to live life without worrying about rights and freedoms that people not in their category take for granted.

[roguevalley]

30. its like blaming Alaska for Palin. Circumstances and lack of clear

information make a lot of crap happen. I don't blame Wisconsin for him. He's a billionaire's floozy.

[TroglodyteScholar]

52. Not even close to true. Search again.

And I have to say this and get it out of my system. After Prop 8 passed is when DU exploded on that subject and yet BEFORE it did, there were very few posts on it. I searched.

This is simply false. Whether you are inept at paying attention/searching or what, Prop 8 was a HUGE topic on DU for weeks and weeks during the run up to the vote.

[KittyWampus]

53. no, it really wasn't. And the few threads I found, had sunk like stone with few replies.

[TroglodyteScholar]

54. Sorry I'm not willing to spend a lot of time proving you wrong...

You are completely correct that DU *exploded* with interest after the Prop 8 vote, but this fact does not prove that there was a lack of interest prior to that vote. I trust my memory just fine on this one because I remember thinking that YES it was a very important issue, but there was a near hysteria on DU for several weeks leading up to vote.

I do think that Wisconsin didn't get the attention it was due in the run up to the last election...and I do recall seeing post after post about Feingold sink without replies or recs. But the comparison to Prop 8 is simply not valid.

[KittyWampus]

67. there's no question- lots of money getting poured into local politics from very deep pockets

on the conservative side.

That was my main point.

Along with the level of organization that the right has been able to build up.

[Le Taz Hot]

99. I just did a search

and there were MANY MANY articles on DU regarding Prop. 8 long before the election. They were in LBN, GD & the California forum. Several every day.

I do have to agree with you on one point, however. The left was NOT ready for the power of religion to influence and sway the vote. Just because they voted for Obama didn't mean their churches advocated voting for marriage equality since HO-MY-SEXUALITY is such a SIN!!!111!!!! and all. :eyes:

[DoBotherMe]

2. Not to mention vote fraud

No reason to think it wasn't used. Dana ; )

[Horse with no Name]

42. Election fraud.

Big difference.

[DoBotherMe]

103. I meant election fraud

couldn't think of the word. I knew it wasn't voter fraud. But I knew the election results were rigged all over the country. Sorry about the misspeak. Dana ; )

[bluestate10]

83. Easy answer. And completely fucking useless.

Voter and election fraud by republicans just mean that our side got it's ass kicked because it was disorganized. Elections are won by winning at the local level, republicans and teabaggers are out organizing and out performing democrats. Instead of protesting in streets and chaining themselves to fences, liberal and far left democrats can be more effective organizing democratic leaning populations to register and vote, and don't allow republicans and teabagger officials to take illegal action to prevent registration and exercise of the vote. But protesting in the streets and chaining one self to fences get tv coverage, so doubtful that the left and far left will make the less adrenaline pumping, but infinitely more effective alternative choices.

[DoBotherMe]

104. It's not useless

It's true. And you needn't be rude. There IS election fraud and interference. They want one-party rule, you think they wouldn't be criminal to get there?

[FBaggins]

114. No reason to think it wasn't used?

You mean... reasons like the fact that state elections officials were mostly Democrats (including the former/current SOS)... that the state legislature and Governor was Democratic... that the returns were in line with what we saw all across the country and were consistent with public and democratic polling leading up to the elections?

Yeah... other than that... there's no reason to think that it wasn't used. They're crafty SOBs.

[DoBotherMe]

117. I think election fraud is systemic

and hidden. Our elections cannot be certified by any election monitoring NGOs. So, yes "they're crafty SOBs." I wish we would all quit blaming the young and poor for our so-called losses. If we believe that they are the reason Democrats lost elections last cycle, then let's make sure each of us helps a young or poor voter cast his or her ballot the next election ... helping them get an absentee ballot and either sending it or taking it to the election office. We no longer have Acorn to register the disenfranchised, maybe individually, in our own spheres of influence, we can do something. JMHO. Dana ; )

[FBaggins]

119. And 2006 & 2008 were just to throw us off the scent, right?

N/t

[DoBotherMe]

120. It was there, but the numbers were too

high to overcome. Which is why we have to overwhelm the ballot boxes with votes for our Democratic Party candidates. Dana ; )

[luvspeas]

3. I'm sorry to say that I agree with those who say you brought it on yourselves...

In the same way that I feel that the entire country is bringing all of these teabaggers on themselves. When the left and center understand that there is no room for complacency an buyer's remorse right now. The conservatives and neo-cons are counting on your apathy.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Buyers remorse is fine when it leads to action.

But you're obviously right about the apathy. Damn shame how WI is taking all this lying down. You'd maybe expect a little protest or something, but what do you see in Madison? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Right?

[defendandprotect]

12. Whaat? We have buyer's remorse with Obama, certainly !

A candidate who said one thing and then did the complete opposite --

But we're being given the candidates we're allowed to vote for -- that's also true.

And we're being given them by corporations controlling both parties!



entire country is bringing all of these teabaggers on themselves.

And that comment seems to suggest that you don't know that the T-BAGGERS are bought and

paid for by the Koch Bros/oil industry -- and that they are run out of a PR firm created

just for that purpose! (Dick Armey's Freedom Works)

Koch Bros family also gave the nation The John Birch Society!


Don't think Americans are simply poor misguided, unthinking people who are fulfilling a

death wish!


Additionally, anyone voting on computers has no control over that vote -- no verification.

See: Votescam -- The Stealing of America --

Results of an investigation by two journalists in Florida back in the late-1960's when

the computers first began to come into play in Florida!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=469164&mesg_id=472939







THANK YOU FOR THE HEARTS -- AND HERE'S A :hug: BACK -- !!

[du_da]

26. And this line of thought is why they keep beating us to the punch.

And this line of thought is why they keep beating us to the punch. You are still convinced they are a not a real movement. They are certainly enabled by the communication and organizational structures paid for by certain rich siblings, who shall not be named. However, tea party members are real people with real concerns who have had those concerns growing and growing with intensity over the years. Claiming that they don't exist is like saying that there was no argument between Jefferson and Hamilton that is was all in our minds. This is the same argument that is at the heart of the political divide in this country and has been its inception. For some reason though, our side thought that the success of FDR destroyed the opposition. Sorry it didn't happen.

These are real people with real and legitimate concerns. Continue to not take them seriously at our movement's peril. If we learn anything from the 2010 elections it should be that belittling the opposition into submission is no longer an effective tool. These are not stupid people you are dealing with and they will not continue to be treated like children. We either take them seriously or we fail. Those are our choices.

If we had the numbers to just ignore them then things would be different. However, we live in a nation who's founding principals heavily favor individualism and libertarian style governance. We have adapted over the years to meet the changing times but those principals still exist and they are wide spread, arguably much more so than our progressive ideals. Overcoming that sort of ingrained viewpoint is a major challenge but one we must tackle to continue making progress toward the future.

[defendandprotect]

31. You don't know that T-BAGGERS are financed by Koch Bros oil money?

Corporate-press is also part of the corporate movement --

T-baggers have been hired to do this job --

FDR's only opponents were elites -- corporate fascists - the same as today.

Nothing new -- not on any issue -- from TORTURE to elites fighting unions with Mafia.

If you learned anything from the 2010 elections you'd know that right wing corporate-policy

keeps even Democrats home -- and that for every $7 that went to the Repugs --

Democrats got $1 -- a losing proposition which Democratic Party should give up.

Additionally, the real danger of the GOPs T-BAGGERS is their more aggressive and violence

stance -- carrying rifles slung over their shoulders to Town Hall Meetings -- spitting on

Democratic elected representatives!


America is a liberal nation -- fantastically liberal -- that's why the right wing has to

use political violence/assassinations, lies and 24/7 propaganda. That's why the right wing

has to control all of media.

:rofl:

[du_da]

55. The organizational infrasture is backed by the brothers Koch

however those individuals who make up the Tea Party are for real, and with or without that organizational effort we have to take them seriously. These people vote, talk to their families and neighbors, and they are not happy at the moment. If you think that these people in the street are hired, then you are dead wrong. They get help with communications, organization, and occasional transportation and they welcome it because they are purposely not a centralized organization but they do not get direct funding to the individual members. I wouldn't even point this out though if it weren't for the fact that every time you try to claim they aren't real, your just upsetting them that much more and more importantly the centrists are looking at you like you have three eyes wondering is this person for real.

The view of the centrist being the one that I am concerned about because without them, we can't win squat.

You are right that America is a liberal nation, but that version of liberal and our progressive ideals are not entirely in line. America is a society based on classical-liberalism. Which is why we are described as being a right leaning nation. It is our job to convince our fell citizens to straighten this beast out and lean her a bit further left.

[defendandprotect]

60. You're still denying that Koch Bros. created the T-BAGGERS ... ???!!!!

Agree that YOU should take them seriously -- they are intended to be violent and

disruptive and to destroy any attempts at true democracy by citizens. And they

certainly have done that! I'm sure Americans want to listen to people with rifles

slung over their shoulders at Town Hall Meetings! :eyes:


The true "voters" are those you see in Wisconsin right now -- Walker is the phony.

Probably put in place with right wing computers!

Again -- let's be totally clear -- T-BAGGERS were created by Koch Bros/oil industry --

and run out of their right wing organization FREEDOM WORKS, headed by right winger

Dick Armey. It's a PR firm which guarantees them coverage where they "appear"--!!

Who but YOU suggested that T-BAGGERS get "individual direct funding to the members" -- ???

The organization was financed by Koch Bros. and kept in play by Koch Bros -- all expenses

paid by them!

I wouldn't even point this out though if it weren't for the fact that every time you try to claim they aren't real, your just upsetting them that much more and more importantly the centrists are looking at you like you have three eyes wondering is this person for real.

I'd be really, really woried about that -- :rofl:

Rather. are you for real?


And this is ...

The view of the centrist being the one that I am concerned about because without them, we can't win squat.

simply more nonsense. We now have one right wing party and one radical right wing party.

Anyone in the "center" of that is a right winger!

You are right that America is a liberal nation, but that version of liberal and our progressive ideals are not entirely in line. America is a society based on classical-liberalism. Which is why we are described as being a right leaning nation. It is our job to convince our fell citizens to straighten this beast out and lean her a bit further left.


I thought only people who watch Fox News were that confused?

This nation is so liberal that most understand that we stole much of the US from people of

color -- !!


Bye --

[du_da]

68. You do realize

that the Tea Party started with the Ron Paul revolution right? Koch Bros had no involvement until later. It wasn't until the tax day rally that they started getting help with the organizational efforts because they had hundreds of different groups and they had trouble getting off the ground without a centralized voice.

As for Americans listening to people with rifles slung over their shoulders, Americans are comfortable with a lot more controversial props used to make a point so long as the weapons aren't actually used to harm anyone in the process. If that was going to be a problem for them then the result would have manifested in 2010.

The "true voters" huh, and we wonder why they call us elitists.


You obviously think we can win without the centrists. Well here's the reality check for you. The difference between 2008 and 2010 was the direct result of the centrist leaving us. Guess who drove them off, people like you. I am just trying to help the party get them back, we don't have the numbers to accomplish anything without them. So we can either be purest and sit with our heads in the sand or we can start working to get some supporters and get this country going the direction we think it should go.


Have you ever noticed that the only people who ever bring up race are on our side? Could it be that race is no longer a driving factor on the right? Also, what does how we got the nation have to do with anything today? We stole much of our nation from a group of people not entirely like ourselves, guess what that is how pretty much every nation on the planet was formed so unless you are practicing revisionist history I am not sure how your point applies. As for being left leaning, sorry as much as we may wish it were that just isn't true. We are taught a national history based on self determination and so called "rugged individualism." It's the Daniel Boone's and Davey Crockett's of history that formulate the ideals of what it means to be an american in the minds of our children. That is the core of our society from which all our politics and standards can be derived and why as a nation we are right leaning. The trick for us is how do we guide this mass of humanity into a better future. We certainly don't accomplish that by lying to ourselves about where we are starting from.

[defendandprotect]

80. "Elitist" to say that the Wisconsin voters are more legitimate than the T-BAGGERS?

:eyes:

Think maybe you should do some counting -- fingers and toes!


As for Americans listening to people with rifles slung over their shoulders, Americans are comfortable with a lot more controversial props used to make a point so long as the weapons aren't actually used to harm anyone in the process. If that was going to be a problem for them then the result would have manifested in 2010.

Rifles are now a right wing "prop" -- ? As in a movie set -- something that isn't real?

Imagine Democrats showing up at a Town Hall Meeting with rifles!

Yep -- I'm sure the weapons would be ignored!!!

:blush:


2010 continues to be Americans voting on GOP computers --

and $7 corporate dollars in play for GOP for every $1 Dems got --

And evidently you don't understand what a huge voting bloc liberals are?

You're saying the right wing is no longer racist? :rofl:

You're on a see-saw between acknowledgment and trying to deny --

LOL --




---------------

Re origination of T-baggers, of course the original mailing of t-bags was organized by

the right -- and later adopted by the right wing machinery -- of which Koch Bros. is a

driving force -- !!

Here are the earliest claims re T-baggers by T-baggers themselves!

Anyone who knows anything about the current Tea Party movement knows that it originated from sending tea bags to the White House to protest TARP. Watch the following YouTube Video, dated April 15, 2009.

What Thread? Right here: http://tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=79282

Who started it all? The person who wrote that post, the one who goes by the user name of Gmack. He posted on January 19, 2009, an article with the title, "Mail a Teabag to Congress and Senate". You can clearly see that he posts the idea, and the forum moderator then edits his post a bit and then everyone gets in the discussion and starts throwing the idea around.

Here's more --

The TEA movement started at the end of the Bush term when TARP was passed. It was initially an uncatalyzed, unrecognizable group of citizens who were shocked that Bush approved TARP.

The tea bag idea was the first catalyst. By itself, it was a good idea, but would have been a mail-in effort and not a personal time commitment. As such, I don’t think it would have sustained a movement by itself.

A second catalyst was needed. Rick Santelli (CNBC) called for Chicago Tea party on Feb 19, 2009. His passionate call for action on live TV, following Obama’s plans to spend unheard of amounts of money, struck a chord.

Things really took off after Santelli spoke.

Next, local citizens all around the country took on the effort and organized their own TEA parties.

Who started the TEA party movement? Concerned citizens and a couple of key catalysts. I give more credit to Santelli as the more effective catalyst.


Just as the GOP gave start up funding for the Christian Coalition -- and Richard Scaife funded

Dobson's organization -- and other wealthy right winger funded Bauer's organization --

so too were the T-baggers picked up and financed by Koch/GOP right wingers.

[du_da]

88. You are not going back far enough,

before they were the Tea Party before the tea bags on their hats they were the Ron Paul revolution. Remember the Tea Party is a coalition of independent groups. The groups that were the RP revolution were the core of the coalition that became the Tea Party. It is the same group of people pushing the same message. They simply refocused from the supporting the Ron Paul campaign to what we now know to be the Tea Party movement after Santelli. This is why the Tea Party started with a very libertarian message, before their movement was co-opted by the Republicans. Think back, at the beginning the Tea Party had not social agenda what so ever. They were purely about economics. It was one of our original complaints and one of our justifications not to take them seriously because according to many on our side if you weren't willing to take a position on social issues then you weren't serious about politics.

I don't think Democrats showing up to a Town Hall meeting with rifles would do more than get a passing glance with a response of "interesting" from the conservatives.

I didn't say the right wing isn't racist. I said maybe politics isn't about race for them anymore. I would argue our side has just as heavy a percentage of racists as theirs does, neither of which are the dominate aspect of either side. And all we are doing when we try to play that card is reenacting the boy who cried wolf because we aren't being taken seriously anymore. The country is ready to get past race in regards to politics. Note that race in politics and race in society are very two different things.

[defendandprotect]

92. T-BAGGERS are wholly owned by Koch Bros - oil industry now ...

I don't think Democrats showing up to a Town Hall meeting with rifles would do more than get a passing glance with a response of "interesting" from the conservatives.

Really? Liberals are being arrested when they simply show up wearing a liberal T-shirt!

However your reply is disingenuous so you are close to being on ignore.

I didn't say the right wing isn't racist. I said maybe politics isn't about race for them anymore. I would argue our side has just as heavy a percentage of racists as theirs does, neither of which are the dominate aspect of either side. And all we are doing when we try to play that card is reenacting the boy who cried wolf because we aren't being taken seriously anymore. The country is ready to get past race in regards to politics. Note that race in politics and race in society are very two different things.

Of course, what you are saying is nonsense -- but good to get you on the record here!


Come back when the T-BAGGERS bring out 70,000 and more!!

:rofl:

LOL






Whatever the momentary history, the T-BAGGERS are funded now by Koch Bros and run out of

Dick Armey's PR company -- Freedom Works -- has been that way for most of their existence.

Additionally, Ron Paul is at best a right wing libertarian --

[bluestate10]

79. Money does not overcome organization and common purpose.

Blaming election loses on the Koch brothers is simplistic thinking. Blaming the Kochs allows our side to go on acting that it does not have fucking out of whack viewpoints preventing the common purpose required to overcome a hostile and hate filled right wing.

[Enthusiast]

50. They are stupid people. Tea Party is an entirely

corporate created phenomenon. There has never been a grass roots populist movement focused on protecting the rights of corporations and banks, and there never will be.

Forget it, du_da, we are not as gullible as your Teabagging brethren, you will never convince us.

They might be real people but when they want the government to keep hands off their medicare -they are 'stupid people'.

[du_da]

59. The fact that you think

the tea party wants to protect the banks shows just how little you understand thy enemy. This is the group who was first called for letting the banks fail. They did the same for corporations. You seem a bit confused about who are you are talking about. Republicans and Tea Party are not the same thing, and out of the two we need to be much more concerned with the later because they are the more dangerous to the progressive movement. Republicans are predictable and will do what they can to keep the status quo. The Tea Party wants to undo all things that have been put in place since FDR purely because they don't think these things were done with the proper consent and to them the ends do not justify the means.

[Enthusiast]

98. Oh, bullshit!

The Tea Party wouldn't have drawn a breath without Freedom Works and Koch Brother support. The Tea Party has helped elect these FAR right wing Governors like Walker and Kasich yet you want us the BELIEVE IN THEM? Are you out of your mind?

[du_da]

105. There is a difference

between they wouldn't have existed vs not having the current level of success. The Tea Party existed as hundreds of little groups before the power players got involved. That seems to suggest they would have existed regardless. I think we can be in agreement though that they wouldn't have been so successful, which is why I say they are enabled by not created by those power players or even owned by them. This is critical because if you disregard them as being owned by the power players then the end result is a message that you are not taking these people seriously, and that hurts our cause because it makes us seems as though we are sticking our noses into the air.

As for wanting you to "believe in them", I don't see how you have a choice. Unless you are under the impression that the 2010 elections didn't happen. How deep are willing to bury your head in the sand and to what benefit?

[Enthusiast]

107. Take your ideology back to

freeperville where it belongs.

The Tea Party has contributed to the ruination of this nation. They are protesting in Wisconsin in support of Walker. So don't give me any of your damn lies, I've heard them all.

[du_da]

108. If they were able

to contribute to the ruination of this nation, doesn't that mean they are a force to be taken seriously? Isn't that the point that I have been making this entire time that we can't disregard them. We must take them seriously.

It would seem you proved my point.

[CJCRANE]

110. Isn't the Tea Party just the Republican base by another name?

I know Ron Paul came up with the original idea for "a new Tea Party" but the Paulites and the Tea Partiers are two different (but occasionally overlapping) groups.

Ron Paul is much more anti-war and isolationist than the Tea Party and doesn't take his marching orders from Murdoch and the Kochs.

[du_da]

113. Which is the point

I was making that they were not started by the Koch brothers. They started as something else and were co-opted. This is an important distinction because that original element still exists as a core aspect of the movement. Because of that you can't just make the assumption that they are all in lockstep with the power players. This results in a delicate situation when dealing with them because if we approach them with accusations that are not applicable to the ones in question we end up being the bad guys.

[Enthusiast]

112. Again with the lies.

You are a Teabagger. Go on, admit it. Hey Skinner, kick this fucking guy off DU right now, he is a Teabagger!

[du_da]

116. Let me see if I got this straight

So you wrote "The Tea Party has contributed to the ruination of this nation." Then in response I pointed out that this shows they are to be taken seriously. You then claim that to be a lie. So, by your logic a group who has contributed to the ruination of this nation is not to be taken seriously. Are you for real?

I have to wonder if one of us here isn't indeed not what they claim because you seem to not want us to take a real threat to the Democratic party and Progressive movement seriously.

hummmm, gotta wonder what's going on there

[bluestate10]

78. Totally agree.

Some on DU want ideological purity so bad that they follow false prophets like Ralph Nader. It make no difference to those people that they can set society back 25 years with their intransigence. Republicans don't plan to stop their assault on society, they are playing for keeps, even though they don't have the potential voter numbers that democrats have. Yet many on our side are consumed with assumed slights and spend precious energy fighting those that mostly agree with their views.

[Enthusiast]

97. Imagine that, YOU

believing the Tea Party to be a force for good, lol. :rofl:

[bluestate10]

74. Or counting on the Left and Middle fighting over small philosophical differences. nt.

[okieinpain]

121. i agree, i cringe when i hear people say they mad about this or

that so they're going to set out an election.

[elocs]

5. Regardless of whether you are sick of it, the fact is that 100s of thousands of fewer Democrats

chose to not vote in 2010 than did in 2008. Had they have bothered to show up and vote last November Walker may well have not been elected and Feingold may have been reelected. That's a real good reason for how the election went as it did.

Choosing not to vote has consequences as well and facts really are inconvenient nuisances.

To tell the truth I was damned sick of how many Democrats chose not to take part in the election of 2010.

[leftstreet]

7. Why did so many more vote in 2008? What was the difference?

:shrug:

What made them "bother" back then?

[elocs]

8. I think you know but voting for the governor of WI is not exactly chopped liver

and many could not seem to get motivated to get out to vote for Feingold either. Both of those races were excellent reasons for Democrats to get out to vote, but evidently in 2010 they were not even as motivated to vote as the Republicans.

Governments are formed and lives are changed by those who bother to get out and participate in the system and cast their votes, not by those who stay at home.

[leftstreet]

9. Well I'm sure the party leader$hip sees an opportunity for 'motivation' now

We've all seen this script play out over and over, locally and nationally

[Jackpine Radical]

13. The takeaway from 2010

is that if the problem was motivation, we need to answer the problem. If the problem was being outspent, we need to answer that, too.

I do think that the doings right now mean that fewer Dems will be asleep. The Walker people understand this, and are doing everything in their power to disenfranchise the poor and minorities. We need to fight them at every level.

[krawhitham]

15. hate for Bush

[defendandprotect]

62. ... and for Bush wars which Dems kept going after '06 ...

see video of Pelosi morning after '06 declaring that

"Dems were elected to end the war!"---

[undeterred]

20. There is always a much bigger turnout for a presidential election.

That's the way things work.

[leftstreet]

28. Someone should tell the Dem leadership this

Sounds like they need to work on GOTV strategy

Maybe some midterm initiatives that draw Dem voters.

Or hey! How about a Dem candidate running on a Medicare For All platform?
That could do it

[undeterred]

29. Everyone in the country who has ever run for office knows this.

[leftstreet]

41. Then the Democratic leadership brought this on themselves n/t

[StarsInHerHair]

47. they did, they're mostly the Other Right, but some are Real Left

the proffesional "Dem" politicians know damn well what they're doing

[defendandprotect]

64. I guess if Obama had fought for MEDICAE FOR ALL Dems would have stayed home???

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

63. MEDICARE FOR ALL ... or maybe END THE WARS?

[leftstreet]

66. Hey! That could have closed the "enthusiasm gap"

Ya think?

[defendandprotect]

61. You're not "sick" about the things Obama has done... you're "sick" about

about voters staying home because they feel betrayed?


:eyes:

[elocs]

84. This was a specific "sick of", not an all encompassing "sick of" of everything.

My "sick of" actually had something to do with the subject at hand (the gubernatorial election in WI), which in no way includes the president.

[defendandprotect]

87. Had Obama pushed for MEDICARE FOR ALL he would have had "shirt tails" -- !!

It's the direction that Obama moved in from the moment he was elected

that has caused Democratic voters to walk alway from the party .

[elocs]

91. The Republican vote total for Walker was 90% of the McCain vote

while the Democratic vote for Barrett for governor was only just over 60% of what they gave Obama. The difference between the WI Obama vote and the vote for Barrett was 666,199 votes. Had Barrett just received 20% of those votes he would have beaten Walker.

I am not surprised if Republicans are ignorant about what it means to vote but I expect more of Democrats. I am puzzled as to why 90% of Republicans who voted in the presidential election were motivated to vote, but only about 60% of the Democrats. This was certainly an election in which the Democratic candidate for governor, Barrett, should have easily defeated Walker.

I can only hope that come next year the Democrats in this state will have their act more together and clearly understand what is at stake.

[defendandprotect]

93. And this was the result of unverified computer voting machines ... !!

:eyes:



If Obama actually changes direction and tosses his pro-corpordate agenda,

I would expect Democrats to vote again for Democrats --

not however for "New Dems" nor "DLC Dems" or any other right wing corporate Dems!!


We have also had Democrats staying home and not voting in huge numbers increasingly

every generation because of the Dem Party's move to the right.

We now have one right wing party and one radical right wing party --

Time for Dems to change direction!!

[Gaedel]

101. Every time

Some poster discusses election strategy, talks about mistakes a Democratic campaign might have made, or pushes GOTV, you immediately come up on line with the "Whats the use? All of the elections are rigged."

Even when the election administration is solely in the hands of Democrats, you say this.

[bluestate10]

89. Staying home was counterproductive. Now we see the price of the Left

sitting home on election day. The best hope for the nation is the middle-right having become turned off by republican and teabaggers focus on social issues instead of the economy, and staying turned off as more rightwing bullshit get pushed forward as policy. The middle and middle-left can't win alone, especially with the left wanting to sabotage any progress if that progress is not as extreme as what the left wants.

[FBaggins]

115. We don't know yet that it was counterproductive.

The expected result of "staying home" is that you'll lose elections. If the people you were sending the message to get the message... it isn't counterproductive.

[okieinpain]

122. good god almighty, the truth, the truth... thank you.

[defendandprotect]

10. 2010 was every $7 for GOP = $1 for Dems --

and do you vote on computers?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=469164&mesg_id=472939

[upi402]

11. Good point, k/r n/t

[krawhitham]

14. A large % of people on this site said they were not voting, well this is what you get

It seems one party is not just as bad as the other like so many claimed

But keep spinning and blaming others that is what people here do best

[leftstreet]

17. Can you prove that?

Poll after poll here indicated the majority of members would 'hold their noses' and vote D anyway

:shrug:

[krawhitham]

36. Maybe you will believe former Gov. Ted Strickland

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/01/exclusive-ted-strickland-_n_790489.html

" I lost because there was an enthusiasm gap and too many people who would have most likely voted for me did not vote."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/01/exclusive-ted-strickland-_n_790489.html






http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45213_Page2.html

“The fact that we did come fairly close, that Mr. Kasich ended up with 49 percent, indicates what happened was not an embracing of his ideas or a Republican philosophy necessarily. It was more about the way people feel discouraged, just kind of feeling almost a resignation, wondering if anyone understands what they’re dealing with. I don’t think he has a mandate. I think if this had been a more normal economic environment, this race wouldn’t have been close,” the governor said.

Strickland said if turnout reached his campaign’s expectations of 52 percent, he would have been reelected to a second term. “I don’t say that to make excuses. I’m not saying he didn’t win. He got more votes than I got. I just don’t think people embraced his ideas,” he said.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45213_Page2.html

[defendandprotect]

69. Think there would have been "enthusiasm" had Obama backed MEDICARE FOR ALL?

Don't know about you, but I certainly won't be voting for anyone who has

already betrayed me by making back room deals with Big Pharma and the

PRIVATE health care industry!


And if you have doubts about that --

see Rahm Emmanuel "crowing" about how Obama PRESERVED the PRIVATE health care industry!

And how billions went to corporate contracts via the stimulus!

Or about how he didn't "nationalize" the banks --

and how they worked, despite unions, to privatize the schools!!

On and on -- and how business should be "grateful" to Obama!!

[bluestate10]

86. Some members say that all the time.

They did not get the public option, so they will fuck up the meaningful progress that did happen on health care reform. The view has been expressed continuously on DU that a vote for a Ralph Nader is not a wasted vote, or that there has to be a no chance rabid progressive running or they will stay home on election day, to hell with moderates that have a better chance of beating right wing nuts. Look the F across the country at how some democrats lost, some lost by a few hundred votes, one election turned on less that two hundred votes, in my state, and race is being re-run because the difference was two votes, two FUCKING votes that ten progressives that sat on their asses on election day could have made a difference on, but did not because they were pissed about the democratic led Congress and President Obama not getting as much legislation done as the Left demanded, even as what was done was historic.

[Cleita]

18. Excuse me but people on DU saying they aren't going

to vote is a drop in the bucket of the electorate and will hardly influence elections. It's the people our politicians aren't reaching because they are being outspent by special interests.

[undeterred]

21. Find me one Democrat from Wisconsin on this site who did not vote.

Otherwise, leave it alone.

[fascisthunter]

22. that's a lie

[krawhitham]

37. Denial is not just a river in Egypt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=472641&mesg_id=474998

[fascisthunter]

39. um.... yeah.... ok.... you just posted a link to the OP

bravo well done... I think.

[krawhitham]

40. I linked to a post in this thread

and the link works, I don't know what your problem is. Look at #36 in this thread

[fascisthunter]

46. I'm not the one with a problem

and what does your statement regarding DUers have to do with Strickland not winning?

[Dappleganger]

23. Oh really?

Do tell. Did you go with them into the voting booth?

[krawhitham]

38. They did not go to the voting booth AT ALL that is the point

[defendandprotect]

71. .. but nothing happened before that? They didn't see that Obama had abandoned the left?

[walldude]

57. A large percentage of the say 20,000 members that post

regularly? Split up between 50 states and 140 or so countries? Yeah that's so going to change an election. :eyes:


Seems to me that if you ask someone in Pakistan who's family is buried under the rubble from a drone attack they will tell you there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. So it's all a matter of perspective.

I do find it hilarious that about 95% of the people who are just thrilled with the Democrats, have jobs, health care, money in the bank.

[defendandprotect]

73. PLUS ... we are still voting on GOP computers -- !!!! Yikes!!

[defendandprotect]

65. It's what you get when Dems vote their conscience and not for the "lesser evil" -- !!

[Cleita]

16. Yep, it was out-of-state money that funded the

recall in California, probably from the same sources, and brought us Arnold instead of the Governor we had just re-elected to a second term.

[sudopod]

19. It's like telling a dying cancer patient that they didn't fight hard enough. nt

[qazplm]

24. there are more of us than them

when you are talking Dems/Reps, so everytime we lose it is on us. It is on the youth for not getting out, the poor for not voting, it's on all of us.

It doesn't take a ton of money to hit the polls. Granted some folks need help getting there, but most could if they wanted to.

[suffragette]

25. It's stunning to look at the $ spent by the corporate

interests enabled by Citizens United.

I agree it's round 2 and I think that this round has enormous ramifications for all the states.

There's the Bradley Foundation:
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/zombie-johnbirch-walker/

Koch and all the branches of Koch, all able to contribute separately:
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2011/02/9964/cmd-special-report-scott-walker-runs-koch-money

The RGA in turn spent $5 million in the race, mostly on TV ads attacking Walker's political opponent, Democratic Mayor Tom Barrett. As this photo shows, the RGA described itself as a "key investor" in Walker's victory. In its congratulations, the RGA notes that it "ran a comprehensive campaign including TV and internet ads and direct mail. The series of ads were devastating to Tom Barrett ... All told, RGA ran 8 TV ads and sent 8 pieces of mail for absentee, early voting, and GOTV, totaling 2.9 million pieces."

The Center for Media and Democracy reported on some of the RGA's spin-filled ads last November, including the ads against Barrett, and filed a snapshot report this week. As the RGA takes credit, its multi-million dollar negative ad campaign probably did help make the difference between the 1.1 million votes cast for Walker against Barrett's 1 million votes. According to Open Secrets, Koch Industries was one of the top ten donors to the RGA in 2010, giving $1,050,450 to help with governors' races, like Walker's.

~~~

Notably, Americans for Prosperity bragged that it was going to spend nearly $50 million across the country in the November elections. As one of the groups exploiting the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision to allow unlimited spending by corporations to influence election outcomes, it does not disclose its donors and it does not report its expenditures on so-called "issue ads." It did run such ads in Wisconsin last fall.

Americans for Prosperity has actively supported and promoted Scott Walker in a variety of ways. It featured him at its tea party rally in Wisconsin in September 2009, when he was running for the Republican nomination for governor. Americans for Prosperity also ran millions of dollars in ads on a "spending crisis" (a crisis it did not run ads against when Republicans were spending the multi-billion dollar budget surplus into a multi-trillion dollar deficit), and it selected Wisconsin as one of the states for those ads in the months before the election. It also funded a "spending revolt" tour in Wisconsin last fall through its state "chapter."

It goes on and on, with both direct attack ads and ads drumming Walker's (and Koch's and Bradley's) positions.



And of course there's Feingold, who understood and warned and legislated against this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/31/AR2010103104314.html

The court's rulings are being felt this year everywhere voters go to the polls. But they have special resonance in Wisconsin, where Sen. Russ Feingold, the Democratic author of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform act, has seen not only his legislative legacy but his Senate career endangered.

"I've always been a target in this stuff," Feingold said during a recent swing through the western part of his state. "And this year, I'm getting the full dose: over $2 million in these ads that used to not be legal."

[Ganja Ninja]

27. "We" didn't bring it on ourselves.

Conservative Democrats and the sycophants that support any Democrat regardless of how they vote or what they stand for brought it on us. They have watered down the party brand and and left people confused and disillusioned about what the party stands for. They have destroyed the trust in a party that once was the champion of working Americans.

[StarsInHerHair]

48. THIS says the truth so much better

thanx

[Enthusiast]

51. Plus one! nt

[JI7]

56. sorry, but if that's why people voted against Feingold, they are as Stupid as teabaggers

btw, Harry Reid won.

[defendandprotect]

75. Trust in the party is insignificant? Trampling MEDICARE FOR ALL didn't matter?

And shouldn't matter?

Harry Reid won because he's not a major threat to the right wing --

Feingold lost because he is a threat to the right wing --

REMEMBER ... WE'RE ALL VOTING ON GOP COMPUTERS --

i.e., we have no concrete idea of who actually won or who actually lost!!

For all we know Feingold won and Reid lost!!




:blush:

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. The one spending the most money doesn't always win. Just ask Carly Fiorina, Linda McMahon, or

Meg Whitman.

[leftstreet]

34. I miss the eBay lady already

:cry:


My favorite line here at DU election night was "Bidding on This Position Has Ended"

:-)

[JI7]

44. it helped that Jerry Brown was well known in the state and mostly liked by people

i don't think someone who is more unknown throughout the state like Gavin Newsom would have won.

[bobbolink]

33. Funny, its been OK with everyone that poor and elderly people are told we brought it on ourselves.

I didn't hear any outcry about THAT. Did I miss your voice on that?

[maxrandb]

35. Yes, let's get damned sick about hearing the truth

I don't give a crap how much money was spent. These are the facts.

132,000,000 Americans voted in 2008.

90,000,000 Americans voted in 2010.

That means that 42,000,000 Americans that voted in 2008, STAYED HOME IN 2010.

Throw in all the young people that turned 18 in 2009 or 2010, and there is no doubt that people stayed home.

Were all of those 42,000,000 that stayed home Democrats or Liberals? Hard to tell, but...OBVIOUSLY THE TEABAGGERS DIDN'T!

The next person on DU who ever claims that there is no difference between the parties should be banned

[JI7]

45. Voter Turnout is always lower in non Presidential Years

but i agree with those screaming about no difference. no matter how much you might disagree with someone there is still a difference.

but some people like to get dramatic about everything. it IS possible to disagree with someone on many issues and yet still acknowledge that there is a big difference. but some are just looking for attention and play martyr.

[defendandprotect]

85. So voters did something wrong ... not Obama and not Dems?

Obama pushing for MEDICARE FOR ALL would have been a "difference" --

Obama protecting public education would have been a "difference" --

Obama directing stimulus to direct job creation rather than doling out

billions to corporate contracts would have been a "difference" --

Obama ending the Bush wars would have been a "difference" --

Obama NOT making back room deals with Big Pharma to keep Medicare from

negotiating on drug prices would have been a "difference" --

Obama NOT setting up the Cat Food Commission under the notorious Alan

Simpson would have been a "difference" --

on and on --

Unfortunately, whatever "differences" -- they are FADING FAST!!


AND ....



Rahm .... crowing about preserving "private health care industry" ... business s/b grateful!

Thursday, August 12, 2010

”In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel argued that rather than recoiling against Obama, business leaders should be grateful for his support on at least a half-dozen counts: his advocacy of greater international trade and education reform open markets despite union skepticism; his rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown; the rescue of the automobile industry; the fact that the overhaul of health care

preserved the private delivery system;

the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts, and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18...


If that doesn't make you ill -- nothing will!!

:blush:

[maxrandb]

102. No, What makes me ill

Is Democrats, or Republicans thinking that they can just crush people who are opposed to them because they won an election.

What makes me ill is people forgetting that in order to get stuff done and advance as a society, compromise is required.

What makes me ill is people thinking that just because Obama won with 57% of the vote, Democrats get to govern like it was 100% of the vote.

What makes me ill is people thinking that because Walker won an election in WI with just over 50% of the vote, and Repukes control the Legislature, that he gets to govern like he won with 100% of the vote.

But what makes me most ill, is people who stayed home and sat on their a$$ because they didn't get Single Payer, or Legalized Medical Marijuana, or an Immeidate Withdrawal of Troop from Iraq and Afghanistan, or a 70% increase in taxes on the top 2%...AS IF Unchecked Repuke Rule would make those issues get approval
:wtf:

That is how we end up with ass-hatted Tea-baggers taking an axe to workers rights in this country

No one would like to drive a "fricking" stake through the heart of the current Repuke Party more than I would, but as long as 48% of this country votes for them...THOSE PEOPLE DESERVE TO BE HEARD.

It's ironic that Democrats and Liberals who are pissed about how Gov. Walker is "governing", expected President Obama to govern the same way.

[TheKentuckian]

125. They deserve to be fucking sat in the corner with dunce caps on for a generation.

They are demonstrably wrong about everything and their ideology has failed over and over through history.

Pretending they have a rational argument or that they deserve to be "listened to" is fucking insane and a betrayal of the best interests of the citizens of this nation and world.

They fucking roll over us at every opportunity while we play the loyal opposition game and adopt their failed policies more and more as we move through time.

[JI7]

43. that is a big thing but i still don't excuse the ones who claim both parties are the same or

threaten not to vote. but i think these are a very small percentage and seek attention and are just loud and drown out others who are trying to get people to vote.

[defendandprotect]

77. Unfortunately, whatever the "differences" they are FADING FAST ....!!

And Obama has been a large part of those FADING differences!!!


:blush:

[bluestate10]

90. Anyone that says there is no difference between the tow parties is deluded.

Congressional action under republicans prove that there is a difference and that difference determines whether society gets set back 30 years.

[Glassunion]

49. We did not bring on Walker... Walker brought on Walker...

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of Walker was hovering over the waters. And Walker said, "Let there be Walker" and there was Walker. Walker saw that the Walker was good...

[defendandprotect]

76. More likely ... GOP computers brought on Walker -- !!

[Glassunion]

82. Just watch out for the beard-fist.

[spanone]

58. 8 years of bu$h*/cheney brought this on....they ignore that fact

[mzteris]

70. well - and then there were those "send a message" non-voters!

Which is what I keep railing against.

Let this be a lesson to you all "wah wah Obama's not liberal enough I'm not VOTING" people!

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON"T VOTE!!

Obama may not be "liberal ENOUGH" - but he's a damn sight more liberal than the gd mf ahole fing REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!!

[Imagevision]

81. no-no! --> the Koch Bros. brought Scott Walker on Wisconsins...

[Overseas]

94. K&R! Well said! //nt

[treestar]

95. Why didn't they vote for the Democratic Candidate

In spite of the money?

[BlueDemKev]

100. Exactly!

All the money in the world can't stop a citizen from going to the polls and casting a vote on election day.....turnout was pitiful. Voter apathy not only resulted in the loss of Russ Feingold, it resulted in a right-wing, tea party, anti-worker lunatic becoming the governor of Wisconsin.

Whenever there is an election, GET YOUR ASS OUT AND VOTE!!!!!!

[BlueDemKev]

96. The people still had the ultimate weapon...A VOTE

I'm sorry, but Walker and Johnson won because many left-of-center voters did NOT go out and vote last November. Obama beat McCain in '08 by a 1.6M to 1.2M vote-margin. Walker and Johnson were elected by a 1.1M to 1.0M vote-margin.

This means that a lot of 2008 Obama voters didn't bother to vote in 2010. Apathy on our side in 2010 resulted in the tea-baggers taking over Wisconsin.

[Skidmore]

106. Well, I disagree. Either a lot of Dems voted R or didn't

show up. Either way we ended up with Boehner and his band of merry doofuses.

[grahamhgreen]

109. Passing tax cuts for the rich instead of EFCA in the lame duck was wrong.

[siligut]

111. Reich wing tactic to blame and shame

Anyone who is paying any attention knows differently.

Two of Walker's biggest backers are the secretive conservative billionaire brothers Charles and David Koch, owners of Koch Industries, the largest privately owned company in the U.S. with 70,000 employees and annual sales of $100 billion in the fiscal year 2008. Among their holdings in Wisconsin are significant lumber and coal interests, a network of gasoline supply terminals, and a toilet paper factory.

The Koch brothers' political action committee gave Walker $43,000, his campaign's second highest donation, and helped to fund a multi-million dollar attack ad campaign against his opponent, according to pieces in Mother Jones and other publications. Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett lost by five points.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_f3c998a8-3ebd-11e0-9ce0-001cc4c002e0.html
This is an article posted earlier by Ellipses.

[librechik]

118. Mark Crispin Miller thinks election fraud might have been involved

http://markcrispinmiller.com/2011/02/what-got-walker-into-office-was-it-the-people-of-wisconsin-or-election-fraud/

lots of "caging" in WI

[appleannie1]

123. A lot of registered Dems did not bother to vote so just who should be blamed?

[joeunderdog]

124. And then there are voting machines...

Oops, I forgot we aren't supposed to mention them. Because no matter what voters think, they have the last say.