Don’t dress like a slut: Toronto cop

[kas125]

Students and staff at Osgoode Hall Law School are demanding an apology and explanation from the Toronto Police Service after one of their officers suggested women can avoid sexual assault by not dressing like a “slut.”

On Jan. 24, a campus safety information session was held at Osgoode Hall, where members from York security and two male officers from Toronto police 31 Division handed out safety tips to community
members.

Ronda Bessner, who attended the session, remembered being surprised by what the officer suggested to women.

“One of the safety tips was for women not to dress like ‘sluts.’ He said something like, ‘I’ve been told I shouldn’t say this,’ and then he uttered the words,” said Bessner, Osgoode assistant dean of the Juris Doctor Program. “I was shocked and appalled. I made contact with the police <...> and we’ve asked for a written apology and an explanation.”

the rest is at:
http://www.excal.on.ca/news/don%E2%80%99t-dress-like-a-slut-toronto-cop/


============

It's infuriating that in 2011 we're still hearing this blame the victim shit, but to hear it from someone who is supposed to be professional is totally unacceptable.

[hughee99]

1. Is this blaming the victim, or a safety tip?

If you are more likely to be attacked based on how you dress, should they NOT tell you what makes you a more tempting target to predators? If they tell you that you are more likely to be attacked at night in a poorly lit area, are they blaming the victims who "chose" to walk at night in a poorly lit area?

He probably shouldn't have used pejorative term do describe the wardrobe, but shouldn't he let women know that how they dress could be a factor in whether they get attacked or not?

[DavidDvorkin]

3. True.

[uppityperson]

29. snopes link that addresses these issues. Please read, it is enlightening "codswallop"

http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp

[DavidDvorkin]

43. Read Post #1 again

It essentially says, "IF this is true, shouldn't women be told about it?" I agreed.

The argument in that post wasn't about whether there really is such a correlation or not.

[uppityperson]

44. I know. Thought some might be interested in the information in that link.

[DavidDvorkin]

46. It was interesting

Surprising, too, at least to me.

I still question whether rape is always, or even mostly, a crime of anger and dominance rather than sex. But maybe that's because I don't feel that anger and desire to subjugate, so I can't see it.

[seabeyond]

50. i think you have a point.

i think that a good part of it, more with the date rape type, is an ingrained superiority of a persons want and desire precedent over the other being a human being, a person, other than a thing to be used. it may be about sex, but that person has to dehumanize the female to an extent that she matters not. he is priority. i dont know if those ingredients measure out to anger and hate, but there has to be something where the other person simply does not matter. if a man sees the woman as a human being, he cannot rape.

[uppityperson]

56. I agree with you here. It is about dominance, not always anger/hate but dominance

Doing what you want rather than listening to the other person saying "no".

[hedgehog]

6. The premise is that dressing like a slut makes it more likely you will

be raped. I suspect it doesn't change the odds, but does make it harder to convince a jury that you weren't "asking for it".

[hughee99]

7. I don't know what the statistic are,

but IF dressing a certain way would make one more likely to be attacked, then shouldn't that information be passed on to potential victims?

I'm not suggesting that anyone was "asking for it" regardless of how they dress, just that people be given as much information as possible so they can make their own decisions on what they're willing to do to try to prevent attacks or defend themselves.

[hedgehog]

11. Given that women from infancy to extreme old age have been raped,

the critical factor doesn't appear to be the woman's appearance, but rather the rapist's sense of opportunity.

[treestar]

14. True

Hell, we have a right to "dress like sluts."

[Cid_B]

49. You have a right...

... to walk through through the bad side of town with stacks of $20s in your hands. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[seabeyond]

52. i am thinkin. with that think, then doesnt a person have a right to

see the woman as just that. that is what she projects, admittedly, yet then is outraged when viewed in that manner. my brother does the cutting sleeves off shirt. hair long and scraggly. unkempt beard and mustache. lots of muscle, huge. and then is angry, when people preceive him in a manner that fits his outside presentation.

[Cid_B]

55. I'm not really sure...

... what you are trying to say there.

[uppityperson]

58. Do you mean women who dress like they want to be sexually assaulted shouldn't be outraged when they

are? Since "that is what she projects, admittedly, yet then it outraged when viewed in that manner"?

[seabeyond]

60. no. not at all. thank you for asking so i can clarify.

we are talking about dressing like a slut. or i thought we were. i was watching an interview with a young woman saying she likes to dress like a slut. i hear manygirls flippantly say they are dressing like a slut. admit that is what they are doing and then pissed when someone sees them in that manner. that is all i am talking about.

my niece wears all shirts where half her tits show and push up bra pushing them out. the other day she is telling me her OUTRAGE that some man was staring at her tits. and do you know, she was wearing a wedding ring and had her little girl with her

i told her, your tits are hanging out. i am staring at them, and i dont give two shits about them.

that is what i am talking about.

NO ONE owns rape but the rapist.

[uppityperson]

61. thanks for the clarification, seemed odd from you

[bettyellen]

64. how exactly does one "project" a willingness to be sexually assaulted? I have seen women

dressed pretty provocatively, and I can only think that some of them, at most might be interested in consensual sex. To assume all of them want sex just because they are wearing heels or a shorter skirt at all isextremely presumptuous and sexist..
To imagine that any of them actually want to be sexually violated is ignorant, and completely reprehensible.

[seabeyond]

65. i agree. i never said dress is women saying they want to be sexually assaulted. nt

[bettyellen]

67. but people here think they actually dress to "ask for it"... see no difference in dressing to be

admired or find a sex partner is the same somehow as declaring open season on your body. With some men, the leap is waaay too easy to make.

[seabeyond]

70. i know there is a difference between saying the message we put out

and the actions of a rapist.

i have not read all the posts on this thread, so i dont know what has been said. but some i am reading is saying

putting out that you are easy, willing, want thru dress is on the woman for making the decision to dress in a manner that says that. women know what they are saying in their dress, just as men do in various modes they dress.

but

that is not saying she is saying, rape me. that is not saying that she has ownership in her rape. the rapist is the only one responsible for the choice of rape.

a young woman gets sloppy drunk. she is raped. does it mean she is responsible for her rape? NO. no if ands or buts.... she is responsible for being drunk putting herself in position where she is not able to make good choices or actions.

should a woman be able to get drunk. damn right. should she be able to do that and not be raped. yup. reality is though, that in drinking, risks go up. i do teach the young girls in my life that drinking escalates the possibility so be aware.

what i like best though in the whole rape discussion is why isnt there discussion with groups of men. boys. guys. do NOT rape. not putting it on the female, but squarely on those that might possibly rape.

i know i have had these discussions with my boys.

[hughee99]

15. That's like saying that since people get killed all over Los Angeles

(or any other major city) all areas of that city are equally as dangerous.

[uppityperson]

16. Since over 1/4 women who are raped are by a current or former Intimate Partner, what does that say?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States
Relationship of victim to rapist
Source: Current or Former Intimate Partner 26% Another Relative 7% Friend or Acquaintance 38% Stranger 26%
US Bureau of Justice Statistics


http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
15% of sexual assault and rape victims are under age 12.

[uppityperson]

17. Has a woman wearing a burqa ever been raped?

The slut.

[hughee99]

19. I'm not sure what you were aiming at, but you missed my point by a mile.

nice work :)

[uppityperson]

21. No, I didn't. Just going overboard. You said "If..then". Dressing in a certain way isn't

going to get you raped. Otherwise women in burkas would never get raped.

It is tempting to say "dressing in a certain way will make men notice you more", which it will. However, it won't be more apt to get you raped.

"If..then...". However, "If" is a false premise.

[hughee99]

No, you missed it...

You seem to think I'm suggesting that the way one dress makes them more likely to get raped. Actually, really you seem to be suggesting that I'm calling it the determining factor by going overboard.

All I'm saying is that IF there is any statistically significant info to show that a certain type of dress makes one more (or less) likely to get attacked, someone giving a class should be allowed to mention it. Commenting on one's wardrobe should not be off limits if it is relevant to rape prevention.

[uppityperson]

33. No, you missed that I am saying "I" was writing overboard, exaggerating, not you.

And I was talking about my writing being exaggerations, not you. I get what you mean as far as "if...then...". But there isn't any statistically significant info showing that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=456048&mesg_id=460022

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. I am sort of mixed on that too

How a woman was dressed is irrelevant in all respects as a defense, even for muslims (that was tried in Australia). However, it may indeed be a good safety point, as is radiating confidence, parking in well it areas etc. His choice of words sucked...

[tigereye]

13. what the hell? Rape isn't about how you dress- it's about

power and vulnerability. Sheesh. Poorly lit area- yes. How you dress? No.

[hughee99]

18. A number of rape prevention classes and sites suggest that certain clothing may be better or worse

not so much because it might "excite" a potential attacker, but because it might make it easier for the victim to fight someone off. Non-restrictive clothing is usually recommended so one will have full range of motion to defend themselves. Another recommendation I've seen is things like overalls, layers, or clothing that may be difficult or time consuming for a potential rapist to manage. Now while neither of these particular things is about how provocatively one is dressed, they are both suggested as potential dress that could discourage a would-be attacker.

[uppityperson]

27. If a rapist is holding a knife to my throat, overalls won't slow him down. Here's a good link...

That advice is poor advice. It is written and given and shown to people but has no basis in reality.

The only thing about clothing that might make a difference goes for ANY crime. If you are able to flee or fight back without getting hurt, you are more likely to survive ANY crime. Even purse snatching.


The link: http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp
Please check it out. I was given the enclosed advice at a self defense class, had a difficult time explaining to the teacher what was wrong about it. Then found it on snopes.

[JI7]

28. so a long skirt and top with long sleeves would make one more of a target than

someone with short shorts and tank top ?

[Bunny]

30. Nice backpedal.

:thumbsup:

[PeaceNikki]

23. This ^

And ANYONE who thinks it's a fucking "safety tip" can FOADIAF.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. +1, but you misspelled FOESADIAF. -nt

[Matariki]

20. You need to read more about rape statistic before making such ignorant posts.

[hughee99]

24. Please tell me what you disagree with...

I suggested that IF the way one dresses makes it more likely to be attacked, this information should be passed on to potential victims.

Do you disagree with that statement?

I'm not saying that the way one dresses DOES make it more likely, only that if statistically speaking there were things about one's dress that would suggest it is more or less likely that one would be attacked, shouldn't that information be made available.

[uppityperson]

31. If eating apples on Wednesday makes it more likely to be attacked, this information should be passed

on to potential victims.

Do you disagree wtih that statement?

I'm not saying that what one eats on a certain day DOES make it more likely, only that if statistically speaking there were things about one's diet that would suggest it is more or less likely that one would be attacked, shouldn't that information be made available.

[hughee99]

34. I agree.

if you have any statistically significant data, you should pass it on. Just because we don't understand a correlation right now is no reason dismiss data. If people who ate apples on Wednesday were 5x as likely to be attacked, and you had 10K data points, would you not say anything?

[uppityperson]

35. Did you check the snopes link? I had originally gotten that info during a self defense class

and it sat wrong with me so I did some research when I came home and found it on snopes as "codswallop". Rape is such a nasty thing that people try to figure out how to make themselves safe. Unfortunately, much of the advice is inaccurate and won't do anything.

[hughee99]

36. I read the link, and while the information may be bad

it is presented (or at least was at one time) as information that might be helpful to a potential attacker. If a defense or safety instructor has information to suggest that there's something one could do to make an attack less likely (be it how they dress, carry themselves, when and where they travel, or what they carry with them) they should pass it on. That is ALL that I'm saying.

On the other hand, if there's no evidence to suggest that something is a factor (like "dressing like a slut"), then it need not be presented. As I said in my 2nd post in this thread, I don't know what the statistics are but IF they suggest a correlation, they should be mentioned.

[Matariki]

39. Yes I disagree 100%

Even IF that statement were true. Which it's not.

The problem is not, I repeat, NOT - with women's clothing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

22. It's blaming the victim. Next question please.

[PeaceNikki]

26. This line of thinking is TERRIBLE.

From: Jackson Katz: Violence Against Women Is a Men's Issue http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/02/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue

...one underlying problem is that college campuses tend to focus on the prevention of rape and sexual violence. "But the term prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Katz said. "These programs focus on how women can reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted. I agree that women benefit from these education programs, but let us not mistake this for prevention."

"If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target," Katz added. "It's about the guy and his need to assert his power. And it's not just individual men, it's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem."

[Truth2Tell]

42. Easy, it's blaming the victim

Any other dumb questions?

There is no evidence that wardrobe influences target choice of sexual predators. If you have some, please share.

and "He probably shouldn't have used pejorative term do describe the wardrobe..." He didn't. He used it to describe women.

So his information was wrong, and his view of women was transparent.

[niyad]

47. BS-- rape is a crime of POWER, not passion. women in sweats and tennis shoes have been raped.

this officer is merely reinforcing a sexual stereotype that, however subtly, blames the WOMAN for the rape.

and some people just fall right into line with that line of bs. and, gee, think what it says about men--who have so little self-control that the mere sight of a woman dressed in certain clothing causes them to commit the horrific crime of rape.

[bettyellen]

66. no, he's a professional with access to stats and info that prove this "If" of yours wrong....

his "info" was based on a personal bias he clings too, instead of the best info out there.
Why should he be giving these women a false sense of security if they take his advice? Why should he make anyone in any skirt or heels feel bad enough to not report it- because a law enforcement officer told them they;d be judged for their clothing- told they appeared to be a slut? That;s the results this awful advice could have, and he should have known better.
It would be nice if you too educated yourself instead of lamely hiding behind that flimsy hypothetical disproved years ago " IF". Shame on you both,

[kudzu22]

68. Exactly. It's not about assigning blame, it's about preventing the crime

I have the right to park my new car across the street from the crack den and leave the keys in it. It's not my fault if it gets stolen, but I really didn't do all I could to prevent the theft.

The statements in the OP assume there is some evidence that "slutty dress" is a contributing factor for likelihood of sexual assault. I think the officer is just using intuition here. I doubt anyone has done a control-group study. I imagine it would be difficult to get human subjects to sign up...

[fishwax]

71. it's the former disguised as the latter n/t

[Ikonoklast]

2. Male, authoritarian misogynist mindset.

What about seventy year-old women getting raped?

Are they slutty dressers, too, asshole?

[CrispyQ]

4. Nice to hear from an educated & liberal male -

unlike the first two posters, who clearly think rape is about sex & titillation, not power & oppression.

[Lars39]

5. I want to know when in the hell the cops are going to start speaking

to school groups of males and telling them it is wrong to rape, and what constitutes rape.

[CrispyQ]

8. Excellent point.

In our culture, it's more acceptable to chastise women as sluts, than to encourage correct & ethical behavior from men. It's very much like extremist Muslim men who believe women should be covered because the men can't control themselves. But you'll never hear that comparison in this country.

It's truly disgusting.

[lukasahero]

76. Yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it? eom

[BlueIris]

9. There are only three motives for rape: Power, anger and sadism. "Victim was a 'slut'" isn't one.

That cop needs to educate himself.

[Ilsa]

12. Yeah, those old ladies in their bedrooms in their granny panties really are asking for it,

Aren't they? Yeah, i've met little old ladies raped at home. They looked like grandmas.

Why didn't he tell the men to "keep it in their pants?"

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Cleita]

37. I haven't heard that one in a long time. Now who

gets to decide what is slutty or not?

[cigsandcoffee]

38. This is the same thinking behind the veil. n/t

[Imagevision]

40. This cop should be monitored...!

[niyad]

48. I hope for the sake of all rape victims out there, that he is NEVER assigned to such a case.

I hope he is never assigned anywhere but off the force.

[dana_b]

41. "slut"

that term is revolting... because I wear short skirts some times or I like high heels does that make me a "slut"? Are there defined measures as to what a "slut" wears?

[flvegan]

45. Okay, women. Listen up. Since it's obviously all on you to NOT be predated

by some misogynistic shitwit (according to the cop, it seems) here's your options...

Oh, wait...I don't work like that. Here's the deal:

I don't know what the crowd was at this get together. If it was open only to women or all students. If it was only open to women, the "advice" was inappropriate and wrong. If it was open to all students (law school students, mind you) the advice should have been more like this...

I'm a cop. If you sexually assault a woman, and she files charges, I will hunt you down. See this badge and this gun? I don't care if you're a lawyer, I will arrest you and you will be put on trial. If you're guilty, you'll go to jail. Prison. You lose your freedom. The Bar will disown you. You lose your career. How much did you spend for that education again? Right, anyway while you're in prison you will be subjected to nothing short of Hell. For a long time. If you're a lucky little prick, you might plea bargain yourself out of that sort of thing. Or at least have it end more quickly. In that case, keep in mind that she may have friends, family or just interested parties that, in your freedom, will beat the shit out of you upon sight. Hey, that's kind of like...prison. Oh, and as a registered sexual offender, you can only live in certain small areas in many states. Lastly, while enjoying your limited freedom, there are certain folks that have serious issues with predators like you. They peruse the lists, memorize the faces and names of these "men" that choose to hurt (in this case) women. And once again, should they pass you on the sidewalk, be ready to be grabbed by the collar, dragged into an alley and have the everloving shit beat out of you. Punishment works in many different ways. Looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life...worth it?

Part of the message: She has to deal with what you did for the rest of her life. It's high fucking time you did too.

Bottom line: it's not about HER. It's about him.

Damn. It's discussions like this that make the scars on my right hand itch.

[MedicalAdmin]

54. This should be an OP or a full fledged article.

Great advice and very true. In prison, rapists are only marginally less brutalized than cho mo's (child molesters). Go to jail as a rapist and your life is over - get isolated just once and you'll feel like you've been fucked by a semi-truck.

[SmileyRose]

51. Oh brother.

Sometimes you just have to shake off the stupid.

[fascisthunter]

53. it's not the victims who have to change behavior

suggesting the behavior of a victim is at fault also suggests the rapists have reasons or excuses for doing what they do. FUCKING THINK!

[Lorien]

59. Amen. These threads always bring out the misogynists and rapists

people who probably date raped a woman or two and are now desperately trying to rationalize their criminal behavior.

[fascisthunter]

73. you... as a man, I think you are right about That

it just doesn't make any sense at all to blame victims unless...

[socialshockwave]

57. Considering that

Toronto elected a hard-right nut job in the last mayor elections, who's scrapped almost every good initiative set forth, and who, while city Councillor, made fun of homeless people at a shelter...this doesn't surprise me about Toronto cops.

[niyad]

74. thank you so much for pointing out that this appears to be part of a pervasive climate in toronto.

it is even more disgusting to know that this idiot cop is, apparently, not an isolated jerk.

[riderinthestorm]

62. Unbelievable. Who trained these officers and gave them this information?

I wonder if this is now a systemic viewpoint within this department. If so, that's a pervasive bias against the victim which usually translates into sloppy policework on HER behalf during any investigation.

There needs to be more than an apology. There needs to be some dramatic re-education of ALL the officers.

[Moosepoop]

63. I don't give a flying fuck if a woman (or girl, or boy, or man)

is walking down the middle of the street stark fucking naked -- unless she or he consents to sex with someone else it is rape. Period. End of story.

Sorry, kas125, that's not directed at you, my anger is directed at the cop in question and all others with any sort of similar mindset. I know by your comment in your OP that you agree.

"What was she wearing?" is one question that sets me off in a big way... it's a shame that so many people are still so incredibly, mind-numblingly stupid. Especially when they're in law enforcement or the judicial system.

[pipi_k]

69. So elderly women and babies/children...

who get raped...

they asked for it too, by "dressing like sluts".


I hope that guy gets educated. Idiot.

[solara]

72. I'm not surprised by the 'safety tip' from the officer.. unfortunately, he is just part of the

same consciousness that foments this kind of crap:

<snip>


Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives have received a great deal of attention for trying to redefine the crime of rape by adding the term "forcible" as a qualifier. That distinction could create classes of rape victims, with "forcible rape" victims somehow being ordained as worse off than victims of statutory rape, date rape or rape by deception.


<snip>

Rep. Bobby Franklin has introduced a bill that would change Georgia’s criminal code so that victims of rape, stalking, or domestic violence could only be referred to as "accusers" until the defendant has been convicted.

Burglary victims are still victims. Assault victims are still victims. Fraud victims are still victims. But if you have the misfortune to suffer a rape, Rep. Franklin doesn’t think you’ve been victimized. He says you’re an accuser until the courts have determined otherwise.

These crimes -- rape, stalking, domestic violence -- disproportionately victimize women. Holding the rights of the accused above the rights of victims in cases of violence against women is just wrong.

http://www.change.org/petitions/rape-victims-are-not-accusers


I am starting to wonder if the 19th Amendment might be their next target.


:wtf:

[niyad]

75. . . .