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Female High School Wrestler LOSES in Iowa State Quarterfinals

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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:24 PM
Original message
Female High School Wrestler LOSES in Iowa State Quarterfinals
Edited on Fri Feb-18-11 10:24 PM by underpants

FOX NEWS!!!

Female High School Wrestler Loses in Iowa State Quarterfinals

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/02/18/female-high-sc...

DES MOINES, Iowa -- An Iowa high school wrestler who became the first girl to win a state tournament match when her opponent refused to compete against her for religious reasons lost her quarterfinals match Friday.

(she is lessened by a home schooled Pentacostal running away)
Herkelman had a 20-13 record entering the tournament, but was deprived of the chance to show her skills when her favored opponent, sophomore Joel Northrup, defaulted rather than wrestle her. Northrup, who is home-schooled but competes for Linn-Mar High School, said wrestling a girl would conflict with his religious beliefs.

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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. yea its a huge concept.
Do you see the concept.

Should women be allowed in some contact sport.

Should someone that does not want to hurt a women have to in a contact sport.


In either situation someone is discriminated against when ever a group is formed, since a group has many rule sets.

Guess what,

That is why it should be many small groups moving in the same direction, so that uniqueness and different views of what is best can exist to make things better over much of time.

So the real problem in that equation, although mostly in metaphor, is the consolidation. should not be a single same league, and you can see that comment for years in many posts, more diversity, more groups, break up consolidations.

In that case what would solve the problem, a mixed wrestling league, a womens wrestling league, and a mens league. And each with a form of merit, and with its own concept of winning and competing. Although in the actual case mentioned there, that might be difficult, but it is a metaphor.


But that whole concept once again says the same thing.

Break up the consolidations.

If people are not allowed to have a religious belief in some company, many companies would solve that, some would have different rule sets, but in consolidations, it is about conformity and no diversity. Stability and status quo want a single hierarchy all like they are, without any change, and the way to stop any change is make everybody the same as everyone else.

That is why it is about breaking up the consolidations.

About that, and justice and compassion.

And that I am still due beer and travel money, and many experiences.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Girls have no business competing against boys in wrestling
that's ridiculous to begin with.
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Lord Magus Donating Member (443 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'm guessing there aren't enough female wrestlers in Iowa to support a separate girls division.
At least not at the high school level. But that's just my guess.

And since wrestling is divided by weight classes, a girl presumably wouldn't be at an insurmountable physical disadvantage against boys of the same size.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Girls don't have the physical strength that boys of comparable size and weight do
which IMHO puts them in danger of getting hurt. Girls don't have the muscle mass boys do.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. should they also
not serve as police officers?
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I never thought it was a good idea
for the same reasons.
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demmiblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. -1
:eyes:
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
48. wow
at least you're honest in your sexism
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. +1
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
58. Do cops grab each other and pin them with full-body holds? Just askin'.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Yes, in training. And with perps in real life. nt
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Drahthaardogs Donating Member (482 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Both my boys wrestle in Nebraska and Iowa
My oldest wrestles 185, my youngest at 95 lbs. I watch A LOT of wrestling, and really, most 112 lb. boys are not really strong. You will see the lightweights do not get a lot of pins, and most of their matches are won on decision. They just do not have a lot of physical strength, so I do not think it is an issue.

Plus, this girl only lost a 5-1 decision, so obviously she knows how to defend herself.

To that end, if one of my boys said that they did not feel comfortable having a girl touch them (there are moves like the ball and chain that involve holds between the legs), or they they did not feel comfortable touching a girl like that, I have no issue with them forfeiting. It is their body and not mine to judge how grappling with the opposite sex makes them feel.

I think both these kids did very well. She wanted to compete with the boys, there was no girl team, she did well. He was not comfortable with it, and took the forfeit and did not complain or wail. Everyone exercised their free will. Good for her and good for him.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. You have a good perspective and good points
I just wouldn't let my daughter to it for fear of her getting hurt.
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RocketTuna Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Oh spare me.
Thank you for reminding me to write my dad and thank him for not treating me with the same contempt. He never treated me as weak or fragile, and lo and behold, I'm not.

As a martial artist in an art without weight classes, I have fought (and beaten the shit out of) men of all sizes and shapes. The tall, skinny ones that can't put on muscle to save their lives, the short, muscled ones with no range of motion, and even the tall, muscled, athletic bruisers (the sort of men that, when in the abstraction of discussion, seems to pop into the brains of the masses, despite the reality that these people are actually few and far between). I've also lost to people as well. Get properly knocked around in the ring a few times, and you realize it's not the end of the world. It's how you learn.

If my training has taught me anything, it's that the genitalia of the person I'm about to fight is the LEAST important information I can have about them if I intend to win.

Teaching a little girl that all boys are stronger than her no matter what (not to mention that muscular strength is the only physical ability that matters) is just factually untrue. There is far more overlap in reality in regards to physical difference than our derf-tastic culture with its collective inability to read statistics would have us believe. More importantly, it teaches her to be unnecessarily afraid of a world that she deserves to be just as confident in navigating as her male friends.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. !
:applause:

I hear he's looking into binding his daughter's feet, too.

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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. +1 You bet! n/t
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demmiblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. +1
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demmiblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Forgot to say...
welcome to DU!

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RocketTuna Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Hah - Thanks
Been lurking for a couple of years, actually. My recent expatriation has just left me with enough time to actually jump in and splash about with the rest of you.
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demmiblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Ex-lurker here, too.
I lurked for four years!

(derf-tastic... :rofl:)
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. Almost 300 posts on the other thread with me saying this message over and over and over....
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 02:41 PM by riderinthestorm
Welcome to DU! Now you're really splashing with the "big boys". Careful, you may get "hurt". :7 :rofl:

ETA: link to other thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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RocketTuna Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. ohh....
you're a bad person for linking me that other thread....
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
59. At least you are now aware of the sexist, anti-equality posters on DU
It's interesting (saddening) that there are more than a few women on that thread who are fighting to keep girls out of traditional boys sports and/or proposing to keep girls from competing with boys.

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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. MaruKitteh STANDS AND CHEERS! Welcome to DU! n/t
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cemaphonic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. Plus, in wrestling, speed, endurance and reflexes are at least as important as raw strength.
Especially in the lighter weight classes.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
52. LOL! Ok, but I'm the dad!
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 08:02 PM by Gman
and I don't want my daughter getting hurt. Now, momma might have something different to say along the lines of what you're saying! And she usually wins in such matters.

BTW, welcome to DU!! Just expect me to rub you the wrong way periodically!
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RocketTuna Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Noo Problem...
I love a good fight ;)
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
61. Aren't MA designed for brief contact? Because wrestling has, ahem, HOLDS.
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 09:32 PM by WinkyDink
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. So?
What's the difference? If you are talking about injury, I can guarantee you a blow to a guy's groin vs a long hard squeeze is going to produce the same effect, same with a blow to a woman's breast.

From what numerous other wrestlers have pointed out on the other thread, there's no way you are thinking about the other person's body type when you are wrestling - you are simply competing (the girl in question doesn't look as though she has matured enough to even have boobs yet anyway you sexist prick if that was where you were going besides the risk of injury).
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RocketTuna Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Maybe something points based like Taekwando..
we certainly have holds and grappling techniques. I <3 them very much ^.^

And any martial art worth its salt will have a self defense portion of what they teach that is usually centered around holds.

If it's the dangly bits that squick you out - I don't know what to tell you. We all get over it with in the first couple of days.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. She lost 9-0 in her consolation round bout...
so she may have been a bit outclassed in the competition.

However I agree with the rest of your points.

Sid
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. yeah, but it's the state tournament (in the most wrestling-crazed state in the union)
Most freshman wrestlers would be outclassed by that competition. She qualified by finishing second (iirc) in her district, and had a winning record over the course of the season ...
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Drahthaardogs Donating Member (482 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. I do not think so
From my experience, Iowa takes a back seat to Oklahoma when it comes to wrestle crazed people. Oklahoma is the most hard core I have seen yet.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. meh -- having lived in both, I'll still side with Iowa
though Oklahoma definitely loves its wrestling too.
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Drahthaardogs Donating Member (482 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Well,
I think her record put her at about a 65% wrestler, so she is not exaclty a dominant wrestler compared to some of the other wrestlers at the tournament. Still, it is obvious she knew HOW to wrestle and was at least a pretty good wrestler to get to this level and her father is the coach so I would venture she has solid technique. As such, I never really bought the whole "she might get hurt" argument. I doubt very seriously she has a higher probability of getting hurt than any other wrestler out there. They can all get hurt, and sometimes do, but it is not nearly as violent a sport as football.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Under the same training they will, which is why we now have women in combat.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I also understand that at some points the standards were lowered
in order for women to be included. Do you know if there is any truth in that? It makes sense to me.
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Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Then how did she have a record of 20-13?
Are you assuming all those 20 wins came from forfeit? How many times more than 20 does she have to win to prove your statement incorrect and outdated?

And regardless of "muscle mass," wrestling isn't all muscle, particularly in the lower weight levels. It's about skill, agility, speed, and flexibility. If this girl won 20 matches, it sounds as if she overcame what you view as her weakness.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. But that is not much of an issue here...
At 14 years old and 112 pounds, neither of those kids can have too much muscle. Boys get hurt wrestling, why can't girls too if they want to?

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mediator Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. And they should be banned from jobs like at UPS because they obviously lack the strength
to lift those horrible heavy boxes.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
56. How did a girl WIN state in alaska you sexist pig?
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-11 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. The boys were all that bad and got beat by a girl??
just wondering!
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Why?
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
55. You are a sexist idiot. Girls have WON state titles before.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. What's ridiculous is your opinion.
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Blecht Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. There's no story here
Not being allowed to compete is bad.

Choosing not to compete for whatever reason is, well, a choice.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Where in the bible does it say men shalt not wrestleth with women?
:-)

I saw a thread about this earlier, but I didn't realize he objected on 'religious' grounds.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. homeschooled Pentacostal son of a preacher
but what could be wrong with that?
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Andy Kaufman died for their pins.
:hide:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Punsters are the first ones thrown out of the life raft - even if there's plenty of food and water.
We'll make an exception in this case because that was a good one. :rofl:
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Uninteresting news story becomes even more uninteresting.
1) Kid doesn't feel comfortable wrestling a girl and forfeits.
2) Girl loses in next round.
3) ????



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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. +1 n/t
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. Yes....and a bunch of boys lost their matches, too.
What's your point?
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WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. Why are her defenders upset?
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 09:57 AM by WhaTHellsgoingonhere
She got to wrestle. She has wrestled all year. The state didn't ban her. Boys wrestled her.

One boy had issues with it, but no one else.

BFD

There's no reason to complain about some imaginary injustice that has been done to her.
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Cairycat Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
23. This wrestler is from my town
I'm very proud of her. I think it takes a lot of guts to even try to compete in a male-dominated sport like that, and for her to have done well enough to go to State, is wonderful.

I'm not sure if I totally agree with the male wrestler's decision - he went into it knowing he could compete against female wrestlers (there was a second female wrestler from Ottumwa). But all in all I think the families and coaches of both the female and male wrestlers involved handled the situation with grace and dignity.
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Shandris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
24. The 'point' they're trying to make here (with the subtlety of a sledgehammer)...
...is that although she is recorded as being the first girl to win a State Tournament match because of the forfeit, when she 'actually' wrestled someone she lost.

The part of the point that they intentionally overlook is that there is a) every chance she might have beaten the first boy, making their point moot and b) someone was going to lose the match, and there was a 50% chance that it was her.

What they intend as a 'See, women can't compete!' article ends up as 'See, we're dumb as shit!' article. Fuck them. If the girl wants to wrestle and meets the criteria, let her wrestle. Don't give me this horseshit about 'muscle mass' and all that other pseudo-misogynistic crap -- you don't keep a boy out of wrestling because the team's best wrestler has 'more muscle mass', why would you do it to a girl and that's presuming there were even some truth to the statement, which objectively, there isn't.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
57. Do male swimmers compete vs. females? Male tennis players? Male skiers?
NO. But when it comes to this sport, with its extreme close-contact, oh, THIS is where we should promote over-looking gender.

Right.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. They are the same size and weight!
What is wrong with you? This isn't a contest between two people of vastly differing body mass, they are the same size! They are children for fucks sake. Yes, boys and girls DO compete against each other, and with each other all the time in soccer, little league, skiing, tennis, martial arts, boxing, etc. etc.

Trying to keep girls out because you want to keep them "safe" is outdated and sexist. If you can't see your opponent as a fellow competitor and see them only as a "girl", you are objectifying and stereotyping her. The wrestling league allows girls to wrestle, the girls parents allow it, the girl is clearly capable of doing it.

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aaaaaa5a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. To me we are missing the MUCH BIGGER STORY...


How is a kid who is home schooled allowed to compete in an event like that which is intended for kids in public school?

If the Parents determine the class curriculum is unsuitable for this student, how are the extra curricular activities and other after school programs deemed okay?

Think about it.

The parent pull the kid out of public school (costing the school system money) so they can brainwash their kid with religious propaganda (their choice I suppose), and then at the end of the school day they drive the kid down to the local high school so he can compete in wrestling, basketball, soccer etc.?


Why is there not more outrage by this?

Do home school parents have to pay an added fee so their kids can compete on the backs of the public tax payer?



Our news media loves to miss the big story. In the name of Rachel Maddow. TALK ABOUT BURYING THE LEAD!



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Shandris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Do Homeschooled parents still pay the taxes that support public schools...
...or do they get out of those? I don't know. If they did, I would suspect that is the reason. If they DON'T...then no way in hell should they be in there.
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aaaaaa5a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:53 AM
Original message
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 11:54 AM by aaaaaa5a

What if these home school kids generate a scholarship through wrestling in these public tournaments?

Have they potentially taken a scholarship away from a student who attended public school and maybe was beaten out for the scholarship by someone who was home schooled?

Do home school students take spots away from publicly educated students on say the basketball team or football team?

Was there a publicly educated student that perhaps didn't make the wrestling team or just missed out on the chance to compete in the tournament because of this "home school wrestler?"
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Drahthaardogs Donating Member (482 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. So your premise
is that colleges hold athletic scholarships in a quota for private school, vs. public school, vs. homeschool?

I don't think it works that way.
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aaaaaa5a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #41
68. NO.


What I'm saying is that there could be a public school student who doesn't get the chance to compete for a scholarship because his/her spot on the team or in the tournament is taken by a home school kid who does not attend public school except for the extra curricular activities.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. In most places isn't it a portion of property tax that supports public schools?
If so, not only do the parents of home-schooled kids pay, but so do property owners who have no kids.
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aaaaaa5a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #49
69. 

The amount of money a school district receives for funding is based on attendance. So when home school students withdraw from public schools, IT DOES COST THE SCHOOL DISTRICT MONEY. Therefore in a way, they are not using services they have fully paid for.











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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
67. Kids in Catholic school can't compete?
They can in Illinois.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:53 AM
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
50. Sounds to me like she made it pretty far. Congrats on making it to qtrfinals! nt
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
53. More discussion on this loss in an earlier thread, here ->
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