High school athlete refuses to wrestle female opponent

[yelligilli]

By Jim Kavanagh, CNN

A high school wrestler in wrestling-crazy Iowa forfeited a tournament match Thursday after refusing to grapple with a female opponent.

"As a matter of conscience and my faith, I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner," Joel Northrup said in a written statement, according to the Des Moines Register.

Northrup is home-schooled but wrestles as a 112-pound sophomore for Linn-Mar High School in Marion, Iowa. He was a state title contender with a 35-4 record, CNN affiliate KCRG-TV reported.

His erstwhile opponent, Cassy Herkelman of Cedar Falls, advanced by default at Des Moines’ Wells Fargo Arena.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/17/high-school-athlete-refuses-to-wrestle-female-opponent/?hpt=T2

[MineralMan]

1. Forfeit. You make your choices and you deal.

Them's the rules.

[SoCalDem]

6. In a way, I can understand his thinking.

Our son used to play club soccer, and the coach's daughter played on a girl's team that he also coached. her team was 2-3 yrs older than the boys team. He used to sometimes make the boys team scrimmage with the older girls, and when they lost, the boys would get teased for letting GIRLS beat them..and when they won, they would get teased.."Wow you beat a GIRLS team:rofl:

Those girls were awesome.. they kicked ASS! I think the boy;s team only won a few times:)

[MineralMan]

9. I suppose there is that sort of issue.

If you look at the article, the girl had a very good record from previous matches. Not as good as this boy, but good enough to make it to the state tournament. She appear to be competent at the sport. I can see no reasonable reason she should not compete, especially in the 112-lb class. Sounds like she's pretty good at it, too. It's her choice to compete. If a boy doesn't want to wrestle with her, he forfeits the match. His choice.

[Mimosa]

249. Exactly. And he is not a 'bad person'.

Every person should be free to act according to his or her conscience without being put down by others.

That is why some people are conscientious objectors and others are not, for one thing.

And if people here on D.U. claim they respect anybody's rights to conscience or religion, say ISLAM, they should respect this oung man's choice. In Islam or Orthodox Judaism it would equally be wrong for a man to wrestle with a woman.

[Dogtown]

47. He cited his "faith".

This isn't about his ego and fearing a loss to a girl. He's been taught that females belong in the kitchen or the Delivery Room, and he'll tantrum till he gets his way.

In the process, he cost his team possible scores by throwing this match. *NOT* a team player, and needs to lose his jersey because of his unsportsmanlike behavior.

[riderinthestorm]

69. One of the guys who supplies hay for my farm is the local high school wrestling coach

As the mother of 2 girls, we've had the conversation before and he agrees with you. If the boy decides that he won't wrestle, and has cost the team by throwing the match, there would be a serious conversation about him staying on the team.

Girls have been on wrestling teams for a couple of decades now, especially in the lighter weight divisions. I graduated high school in 1980 and there was a freshman girl who was trying out when I was a senior. It was a first for our Chicago suburban high school and a big deal, but the coach was non-nonplussed. ANYONE could try out, male or female, in his opinion. If they were good enough, they made the team. And that was 3 decades ago (she didn't make the team that year and since I never followed up, I have no idea if she went on to make it in any other successive year).

[Bake]

96. Maybe he was taught that violence against women is wrong.

Wrestling can be violent.

I think the kid was right to do what he did.

Bake

[Better Believe It]

190. But violence against men is OK?

They are wrestling.

It's not a death match!

But, if he wants to forfeit the match let him because "you're not suppose to fight girls" according to the bible, let him!

[lumberjack_jeff]

243. Yes, usually. But sometimes it's a punchline. Uh, this is news to you? n/t

[jmowreader]

285. I think I understand...

According to this young man's faith, the only time you're supposed to wrestle women is after you're married to them, and only when attempting to make more little Christians.

The only REAL problem I have with this is, why do homeschoolers get to play high school sports in the first place? I figure if you want to go out for high school sports you should attend the high school.

[wickerwoman]

231. I had male sparring partners for kickboxing and none of them seemed that bothered.

It's extremely common to have coed martial arts gyms and I've never heard a single person object on the grounds of "violence against women".

This is about close physical, in the guy's mind sexualized, contact, not about violence.

[AsahinaKimi]

233. When I was taking Kendo in High school

Our team consisted of both male and female. No one worried about this kind of thing, least of all the coaches.

[bulloney]

134. Maybe he's afraid he'd get cooties.

[WatsonT]

261. Too bad he wasn't muslim

then many people would defend this as his culture and would admonish anyone for trying to force him to go against his beliefs.

[goddess40]

228. If wrestling a girl is "sexual" what does it mean when you ...

wrestle another guy?

Personally I find wrestling gross, I don't want to see two guys groping each other. Plus, the skin issues these guys deal with because no matter how they try the mats are disgusting.

The worst part of wrestling is the struggle most guys deal with trying to maintain their weight. They try to keep it under wraps but they purge, they don't drink water to avoid the weight it adds on game day. It's time to retire this sport from our schools.

[WatsonT]

260. Men competing against women

is almost always a lose-lose for the man. Like you said you either A) get beaten by a girl or B) get chided for beating up on a girl.

And god help you if any harm should befall the woman you are fighting against.

[CreekDog]

52. I agree

[nalnn]

120. As do I

If it were me, I would forfeit also. I could not conscience hurting a girl.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

160. I could not conscience being hurt by a girl...

[ParkieDem]

280. I think he did forfeit.

And I have no problem with that. If he is uncomfortable or that violates his beliefs, then good for him for standing for what he believes in, even if it means losing a match or whatever the consequence.

[Lance_Boyle]

2. Where to begin...

1) females do not belong in mens' wrestling competition.
2) home-schooled kids do not belong in schools' extracurricular activities.

[Brewman_Jax]

4. Beat me to it

+1

[MineralMan]

7. Why do they not belong?

If they can compete, as this young woman demonstrates that she can by her record, why should they not compete? Let's hear your reasons.

[WinkyDink]

15. Have you watched a wrestling match ever?

[MineralMan]

20. I have, indeed. Have you ever watched a ballet?

What's your point? Yes, hands go to crotches in wrestling. The girl knows that, you know. It's a sport, not a sexual encounter, otherwise you'd see no boys wrestling, either.

In ballet, too, there is contact with crotches. It's part of the activity. Dancers separate dance from sex. So do wrestlers.

[customerserviceguy]

49. You know, MM, you turned me around on this

I entered this thread, expecting to take the side of the young man, but your analogy was quite appropriate. A sincere bravo.

And to top it off, it was the most dignified post I've ever seen that used the word "crotches" twice!

[MineralMan]

53. LOL! Thanks.

[customerserviceguy]

65. I think you really honed your skills over there at freeperland

While lurking, I saw you do argumentive gymnastics on those folks, and you always stuck the landing. In the end, they just couldn't deal with your superior reasoning, and your explanation of that thought process.

[MedicalAdmin]

54. Maybe winky dink doesn't?

Er, separate, that is.


Some folks can deal with boundary issues and others ... well ...

[MineralMan]

60. Well, the deal really is that it's up to the wrestlers.

Apparently the girl in this case has no trouble dealing. Since her parents let her wrestle, they apparently have no trouble, either. I'm sure her friends know she wrestles, and aside from a few "ewwwws," I imagine they accept her choice of sports.

So, whose ox is being gored here? The boy, who has some sort of religions objection (or so he says) to wrestling girls. Well, in that state, girls apparently are on wrestling teams. I imagine he knew that when he went to the state tournament. He drew a girl as an opponent, so he forfeited. There it is, and that's really all there is to it.

If girls are allowed to participate in wrestling, as they are in most states, then there it is. What others are squeamish about who aren't on the team is really quite irrelevant. The kid forfeited. Now, I want to know how she does in the next match. Nothing else really matters to her, I'm sure, so why should it matter to me, you, or anybody else?

[MedicalAdmin]

84. Good points a usual.

The way I see it most of the objections to girls competing with boys is either rooted in an outdated and archaic tradition of "women just don't do that sort of thing, dontcha know?", or in the objectification of women.


On the other hand your point that he forfieted and she moved on is really all that matters. His reasons for forfeiting are his. If I were her I would either be happy that he cut and ran, or pissed that I didn't get a chance to prove/test myself against him.


Old prejudices die hard.

[SnakeEyes]

178. Wrestling is physical and can be violent

It's more than reasonable that a person can be uncomfortable being physical/violent with a girl.

As I posted earlier, I would forfeit for this reason. Wouldn't feel right to throw crossfaces on a girl, among other things. Or catch her in a Saturday Night Ride.

[SnakeEyes]

177. You're ignoring the physical aspect of wrestling

Which the wrestler specific cited as a reason for forfeit.

I'd choose to not wrestle a girl to and it has nothing to do with stereotypical roles of women or any faith based decision or a fear of losing and everything to do with the physical, and sometimes violent, nature of wrestling.

Best example is the frequent use the crossface. For those that don't know, it's where you use the inside of the wrist/arm/hard part of the base of the thumb against the side of the face of your opponent. It's done most often when you're both down on the mat, you're parallel to your opponent, above him while he is in a stomach toward the mat position (either flat on his belly or hands/elbows and knees). At the top level of wrestling a crossface is thrown to the side of the face aggressively, enough to be effective yet toe the line against being warned for swinging it in and being dangerous/unsportsmanlike. I used to throw a mean crossface.

If in the position now, I wouldn't feel comfortable throwing a crossface on a girl among other things and would be the reason I'd forfeit.

Though I guess there are some people that approve of intergender boxing/mma.

[riderinthestorm]

184. I hope then that you would never try out for the team then in the first place

because girls are part of wrestling now. And if you'd be willing to forfeit over this, then you're letting your team down over old sexist stereotypes that have no place in this.

Keeping girls "safe" is one of the world's oldest put downs and I'm ashamed to see it on DU. The girl knew what she was doing, is good at it (she has 20 wins for fucks sake), and should be supported instead of having ridiculous claptrap (phrased respectfully and kindly however, how quaint!) shoved in her face.

My sport is 3 Day eventing. Galloping horses at full speed over fixed obstacles over several miles. Used to be a military test. They used to say that was too dangerous for women too.

Now women rule this sport. Good luck with that.

[SnakeEyes]

214. Few things here

First, it doesn't have anything to do with a sport being too dangerous for girls. I never said that. My comment summed was I'd have a problem inflicting punishment on a girl, even in sport. Especially as direct and unprotected as wrestling. At least in football you're all padded up. But I digress.

Wouldn't throw a crossface, wouldn't bring an elbow down, etc. I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing those actions toward a girl. The chances of encountering a girl a rare. The idea that I shouldn't join a team because of a rare chance is nonsense.

Next, this is an individual state tournament. Team doesn't matter much unless your school had enough wrestlers that earned their way to state to get the team points to win the overall. Which wasn't the case here.

If you consider me not wanting to get stike a girl, even in sport, as sexist then I guess I am a sexist.

Wouldn't wrestle, box, or fight a girl in MMA. Just not comfortable with doing that to a woman.

[riderinthestorm]

223. At least you admit your sexist. Keep women from competing to "keep them safe".

I have no comment beyond this.

[H2O Man]

196. Right.

I wrestled in high school. Boxed much of my teen years and early adult life. My son also wrestled and boxed. I have no problem with girls boxing or wrestling other girls. But I am not in favor of competition matching boys against girls.

[riderinthestorm]

204. Your wrong H2O Man. The girl has chosen this sport and deserves her chance.

Just like anyone else. She knows what she's doing and deserves to face her opponent like anyone else. To say you wouldn't wrestle her because she's a girl and may get hurt is sexist and outdated. The fact remains that there aren't girls teams and so the only options are for her to wrestle boys. You're basically advocating for the girls to be shut out of the only viable competitions available to them because ... you want to keep them "safe"?

If the girls choose this, and they are capable (and clearly they are), they deserve this chance to prove themselves.

Keeping girls and women "safe" is code for keeping them unequal and without choices.

[H2O Man]

211. Er, no, I'm not 'wrong."

I expressed my opinion. You can express the opposite opinion. But neither is "wrong."

You have the right to your opinion. That's fine with me.

[riderinthestorm]

217. Then your opinion is sexist and wrong. Better?

And for what it's worth, since the wrestling association does allow girls to wrestle, a boy declining to wrestle her (imho) makes about as much sense as declining to wrestle because the opponent is black, or jewish, or missing an arm, or... (insert your particular category of other people who need to be protected for their own "safety").

[H2O Man]

219. You are silly.

[riderinthestorm]

222. Er, no, I'm not 'silly."

I expressed my opinion. You can express the opposite opinion but yours is truly dangerous for women's equality and is something quite a bit beyond silly and not funny.

To quote you though, "You have the right to your opinion. That's fine with me".

[H2O Man]

227. Your opinions

are interesting, and definitely have some validity. But you ARE silly. Sily people CAN have some insightful opinions, you know.

[SnakeEyes]

216. So you give no legitimacy to the

idea that I'd have a problem with just the action of throwing my forearm into a girls face?

[riderinthestorm]

220. Nope. If you can only see your opponent as a "girl" then you are objectifying her.

And aren't seeing her as an equal opponent.

She deserves her shot. Your desire to "protect her" is the most dangerous part of your position imho.

[SnakeEyes]

232. Yeah, sure is dangerous

:eyes:

[riderinthestorm]

235. I've already stated I am a professional athlete competing in a sport

that used to be too "dangerous" for girls and women. It took decades to win equality for women to compete. And now we dominate. Oddly enough it used to be the ultimate cavalry military test... and now of course women are in the military too, another activity once deemed "too dangerous" for women.

I don't buy anyone using that crap line. Like I told H2O Man, keeping women "safe" is code for keeping women unequal and without choices.

[chimpymustgo]

240. Rider...kudos! You won the day with your calm, reasoned, FAIR argument! A heart for you!

[jberryhill]

254. And the rules are that a forfeit is a loss, so?

No one is arguing that the girl should be kept from wrestling.

Any wrestler can, for any reason, forfeit a match. That is also part of the rules.

The boy forfeited, the rules were applied, he lost, she won. What's the big deal?

[WatsonT]

262. "Keeping girls and women "safe" is code for keeping them unequal and without choices."

Yeah men in general have a real problem with being too unwilling to use violence on women.

That's one cultural norm we really need to fight against.

Perhaps schools could lead this with an 'it's ok to hurt women' campaign.

:sarcasm:

[shanti]

244. and i agree with you

some things are just common sense.

[a la izquierda]

269. I'm a girl

well, I guess a woman, but whatever. I race mountain bikes. There are many times when I come up on guys on a single track course. I don't expect them to move out of the way for me unless I'm bearing down on them. Likewise, they sure as hell better not expect me to get out of their way if I'm faster than they are. And trust me, shit gets weird out there when you're racing. Most guys AND girls don't even think about the sex of the person they're coming up on-it's just another person to pace on and then pass.

Mountain biking is extremely dangerous, but my husband still lets me race even though he knows I won't get out of his way, and he may end up accidentally wrecking me on the trails. The idea that girls are fragile flowers is such BS. We know what the hell we're doing in the sports we choose.

[KamaAina]

39. Have you ever watched a cheer squad?

Male cheerleaders are frequently in extremely close contact with their female counterparts.

[MineralMan]

43. Indeed they are. Just like dance.

I just don't understand all this squeamishness from the guys. Most of them spend half their high school life trying to grab a girl's crotch or get a girl to grab theirs. Hmm...I'm not sure what the big deal is.

The real point is that the young woman who is on the wrestling team is certainly aware that the contact will occur in a match, and is, apparently unconcerned by that. Dancers have to get over that, too, as do cheerleaders, as you point out.

[SnakeEyes]

180. The wrestler in this story

cited the physical nature of the sport. It's sometimes violent.

It's not unreasonable at all, and actually admirable, for a person to be uncomfortable with being violent with a girl.

[riderinthestorm]

183. Admirable for him to throw the match for his teammates over this?

Admirable to do that to them, over this?

Girls have been wrestling with boys for decades now. It's not new. Your sexist perspective isn't comprehending that the GIRL signed up for this, is fairly successful herself, already knows what she's getting into, and any boy that's getting into wrestling also understands by now that girls may someday factor into one of their matches. She had every right to expect a fair match and instead got sexist bullshit wrapped in "concern" for her safety.

Sorry but that lines been pulled too many times in the past to keep women "safe" at home and in the kitchen.

I don't buy it for a minute.

[SnakeEyes]

221. His teammates are irrelevent

This is the individual state tournament. If this were the state duels then you'd have a point. He got to this tournament on his own. This would have only mattered to the team if the school had enough wrestlers make it to state to possibly acquire the overall team medal. But they don't have enough wrestlers there to be in contention.

I'm sorry if you think being uncomfortable by striking a girl, even in sport, is sexist. I guess I'm sexist then

[riderinthestorm]

226. Extrapolating out to the days when it is a team then.

Sorry, it still doesn't make his decision right imo.

The girl deserves to compete. You men are denying her the chance. It is sexist.

[shanti]

245. do you realize

what kind of holds they have in wresting?

[mediator]

192. Horse feathers, he claims it's some sort of religious bullshit.

He's a goofy little turd and should be cut from the squad.

[SnakeEyes]

218. Did you even read his statement?

"I have a tremendous amount of respect for Cassy and Megan and their accomplishments. However, wrestling is a combat sport and it can get violent at times."

[mediator]

283. It's perfectly obvious, he was scared shitless she would beat his ass

and he wasn't about to let THAT fact be known around the school.

[SnakeEyes]

179. It's also not an aggressive physical sport

that can be intentionally violent.

[Goblinmonger]

88. My son's a high school wrestler

He is a freshmen this year and 160 lbs so not likely to wrestle a girl but has several times in his younger career. He had no problem with it nor did I. The only thing that happened as a result is that he had a penalty point given against him for something that he clearly would not have gotten a penalty for if she were a male. Otherwise, grow up--it's no biggy.

[rhett o rick]

140. That isnt a reason. Of course I have watched. The question stands. In fact I have wrestled.

First of all it isnt sexual and I find it weird that people might think it is. What's the difference if you have your hand or face in a guy's crotch or lady? Trust me when you are wrestling, sex is the farthest thing from your mind.

[Bandit]

59. What if the boy seriously hurts the girl?

Would anyone be liable? The school..the boy..? :shrug: Would the boy live well with himself the rest of his life. My granddaughter wrestles but she is only in sixth grade and they still allow boys and girls to wrestle each other, but in her county, once they enter high school it is no longer allowed..

[MineralMan]

64. What if the girl seriously ingures the boy?

That's a sports injury. They happen sometimes, although wrestling doesn't usually result in serious injuries. They're really rare.

What if either of them injured another wrestler? It's a sport that has risks, just like all other sports. The participants accept those risks, as do, I suppose, their parents. Beyond that, whose business is it?

[Goblinmonger]

90. What if the boy seriously hurts another boy?

Same issue. Many athletes can't live with injuring someone of the same sex.

[Bandit]

93. Are either of you saying boys and girls are physically equal?

I do not believe that. I believe there are physical differences between the sexes which apply in certain sports...I know the US Military does not think the sexes are equal. Their physical readiness tests are quite different.

[Goblinmonger]

102. These are kids of exactly the same weight.

Well, not EXACTLY, but within 7 pounds of each other. Girls at 112 and boys at 112 are not that much different. This isn't a 160 boy going against a 112 girl.

[MineralMan]

103. Well, in the case of this particular girl, her record for the season

is 20 wins and 13 losses. I'd say she held her own pretty well in the 122 lb. class. Wouldn't you?

[ManiacJoe]

109. Normally they are not equal.

However, when you start doing the match-ups by weight, things do come close to being equal. Close but not exactly...

[curiousabout...]

124. This isn't the military...it's high school wrestling.

No boys and girls aren't physically equal, but hey if the girl's a good wrestler, she's a good wrestler.
The weight classes do bring an equality to it(especially in high school) and I think if she wasn't able to hold her own with these boys, she would know that by now. Me,as a girl, no I would not go wrestle a boy right now, I don't have training and I'm not very strong. As an average girl, the average boy is stronger than me. This girl isn't average and I think that's pretty damn awesome.

[treestar]

151. It may be harder for girls in general to qualify for the wrestling team

But those who do presumably have the strength to be on the team.

Men may be generally stronger than women, but there are still individuals and some females are stronger than some males.

[rhett o rick]

162. This may be the first time I agree with you. nm

[SnakeEyes]

182. Most girls wrestling

Do so in the lower weight classes where strength is less of an issue.

[riderinthestorm]

185. Yes, and they deserve the respect they've earned as full adversaries.

They've shown they have the stuff necessary to compete and should be allowed to without sexist bullshit spewing from their potential opponents.

[treestar]

289. On occasion I have heard of a girl kicker for a high school

football team. The one position where you are not likely to be tackled.

We had a girl on a Little league team once. she was really tough and deserved to be there. I think she played third base.

[rhett o rick]

161. Of course we arent. You are trying to put words in our mouths. I am saying that the girls that

wrestle are every bit as tough and physical as the boys that wrestle. The sport isnt for every girl as it isnt for every boy.

[Alcibiades]

215. It's not football

Wrestling is safer. You're more likely to injure yourself training or making weight than in a match.

[JonLP24]

253. In basic training

when there are mixed sexes, when they do combatics matches(like wrestling) they'll sometimes match-up a female against a male of similar size. (They like to do same size match-ups before they go into mismatches) The reason is, there are far more males than females. However you're correct, on the PT test, females have to do less push-ups, sit-ups, and 2-mile than males. Though I remember in AIT, I kept pace with a female on the two-mile run because I knew she ran just as fast to get me under my time limit for the 2-miler in my age bracket.

[rhett o rick]

141. I have known girl wrestlers. They are no more apt to be "hurt" than the boys. Do you think the

females are weaker and will get hurt by the males?

[rhett o rick]

145. I have seen girls play as hard as the boys in soccer and get seriously hurt as well. Why would you

treat girls differently? Do you think they are weaker?

[WatsonT]

263. He would be a social pariah

and might possibly face legal charges depending on the parents of the girl.

But of course he's a religious nut for having objections to fighting a girl.

[Shagbark Hickory]

272. Why not share lockerrooms and showers too then?

[xchrom]

8. i'm conflicted on the first one but think you are spot on with the second. nt

[Upton]

10. +1

[jtuck004]

21. One home-school opponent's argument is that the kids aren't socialized.

So the join in with a larger school's extra-curricular activities.

Yet you would have them kept out of these?

>home-schooled kids do not belong in schools' extracurricular activities.


Why?

[Dappleganger]

23. Tim Tebow.

[MedicalAdmin]

50. Where to begin.

1) why not? If they can do the job they should get to compete. The same holds true for life. Or do you think that there is such a thing as "womans" work?
2) the law is clear on this one. Yes, homeschoolers get to participate in extracurriculars as long as they live in the district (or in states like Minnesota, as long as they register in the district). They pay the taxes, they get the access.

Sorry if I boiled your lance.

[CreekDog]

55. wow, did you get those from your bible?

what i mean is that you say it with such authority.

:wtf:

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Angry Dragon]

3. He shows courage

[MedicalAdmin]

56. By not competing? How is that courageous?

Wow - it's not just you but there is a lot of puritan on this post.

[Angry Dragon]

85. I am no puritan by any stretch of the imagination

He stated his reasons and stood behind them ...... in my world that is courage

[MedicalAdmin]

89. Whoops - sorry about that.

My fingers got ahead of my, er, head...

I didn't mean to imply that you were a puritan, but rather that there was a general puritan feel to things. My bad for not esplainin better.


I give the kids kudos for bowing out the way he did, but it's a missed opportunity and it will cost his team which makes me suspect that he is willing to put himself above his team. In my world that is not very sportsmanlike.

[Angry Dragon]

111. No offense on my end by your puritan comment

:fistbump:


I understand about the team aspect and I am torn on that.
When I read the article the first thing that jumped into my mind was that he stood up for his principals.
It is so hard to find that today.
Even if I felt he was wrong, I can stand up for someone that stands up for their beliefs.
As far as the missed opportunity, winning is not everything.
Standing up for his principals may have been more of a win for his team.

Have a nice evening

[MedicalAdmin]

129. Good to know.

I sometimes type shit that I would NEVER say in person. (see below)

REgarding opportunity I wasn't really thinking about the win. At that age I don't consider win loss ratios as important as what they teach you about group dynamics, individual detirmination, loyalty, etc... It was a missed oportunity for that young man to experience a learning moment. It's pretty irrelevant cause he chose not to.

I am all for standing up for ones principles. It's like climbing the ladder of life. I just wonder if he's leaned his ladder against a wall that is worthy of him.

[SnakeEyes]

181. He's uncomfortable being violent with a girl

And here he was at the state tournament, which is ridiculously tough to make it to in Iowa (the biggest wrestling state in the country), and he chose to forfeit the opening match rather than get violent with a girl. Sure it's double elimination so he can wrestle back through to the final but it's not idea and not easy.

[Maru Kitteh]

188. It's a sporting event - not a bar brawl. You don't think women get physical & injured in sports?

That's a dumb reason.

[SnakeEyes]

225. Of course

But even in sport, many are uncomfortable with aggressive physical actions toward a woman. Many don't like the act of striking a woman, even in sport.

[riderinthestorm]

191. Then he shouldn't have taken up wrestling. Period.

Girls wrestle. He had the choice a LOOOOONNNNNGG time ago to give it up if he felt too squishy about wrestling girls. His coach should have him turn in his uniform now and I'm guessing his teammates aren't thrilled with him throwing his match.

[SnakeEyes]

229. Rarely does one wrestle a girl

In my four years in Iowa I only saw it once, at a JV meet. The thought of wrestling a woman doesn't come across your mind until that rare moment that it happens.

This is an individual tournament, he got there on his own. His forfeit won't impact the team at all. His teammates are a non-factor here.

[riderinthestorm]

236. The league allows women. If it's good enough for the governing body

then the boy knew it was a possibility. He gets no pass from me for being ignorant of his sport.

[RedCloud]

5. I am totally torn on this one.

One part is not to engage in violence against females.

The other part says equality?

Welcome to DU yelligilli

:hi:

[jberryhill]

138. No opinion either way, but wrestling isn't violence

Wrestling is chess with arms and legs.

[SnakeEyes]

186. You've clearly never actually wrestled

Or at least not at the high school level. It can be violent and is certainly physically aggressive. My crossface will tell you so too. As will my forearm to the back of your neck when you try to shoot in on me will tell you. Or when I'm yanking trying to bring your arm back for a wing. Or maybe as I'm digging my head into your ribs to force you into a cradle. etc. Plenty of legal and common instances in wrestling.

[jberryhill]

242. Clearly you've never played chess

At least not with me. I shove every captured piece down your throat, and if I capture a pawn en passant, then I gouge your eyes out.

[Brickbat]

11. Let him wrestle with the home-school youth wrestling association.

[SoCalDem]

83. AMEN...

If you CHOOSE to keep your kid home-schooled, you ALSO choose to exempt them from extracurricular activities, or if you are allowed to participate in them, you follow THEIR rules..

[blueamy66]

164. Exactly.

A home schooled kid doesn't have 1/2 of the pressures that a public school kid has.

They are not equal, therefore, shouldn't play in the same league.

[WolverineDG]

172. He did

he refused to wrestle her & the rules said he forfeited. I didn't hear anything in the news about him whining about that, so I'm curious as to why there's so much *OUTRAGE* about this on DU. Unless it's just another opportunity to bash Christians &/or home schoolers.

dg

[SoCalDem]

174. no bashing..

just common sense.. If public school is not "good enough", then the activities it offers are also "not good enough".. The spot he takes on a school team is a spot that does not go to a student who's "paying his dues" there every day.

Home schoolers just need to start their own leagues and play each other.

[WolverineDG]

176. separate but equal? nt

[SnakeEyes]

187. Home schooling has nothing to do it.

I wasn't home schooled and I'd be uncomfortable being violent with a girl too.

[ohheckyeah]

237. You seem to have a lot of trouble

with separating violence from sport. Being aggressive in a sport isn't being violent.

[AngryAmish]

266. Is boxing violent?

Of course it is. It is part of the thrill.

[KatyMan]

12. I'll bet it's nothing more

than a high school boy not wanting to handle a high school girl in a way that might end up making certain of his body parts...um...obvious.
But even if it is on religious grounds, so what? It's his choice, he's not asking for a rule change. Why is it even news? (last comments not directed at OP, but at CNN).

[quakerboy]

73. I am thinking its probably more about the parents than anything

Thats just a guess in the dark. But I've wrestled a few times, male and female. And if the match is anything like competitive, there is no time or energy left for being excited in that way, because you are far too busy not getting your ass handed to you.

I agree with the second half of what you say. He made his choice. Unless someone is challenging the system to change, ok. That's what people should do. If he makes a choice based on religious grounds, and is not attempting to force others to conform to his view, instead living as he sees fit and accepting the consequences that stem from it, then good on him. That is, to my way of thinking, a mature and responsible way of dealing with the dictates of your personal faith, and one that Al Qaida and the Southern Baptists could learn a lot from.

[riderinthestorm]

78. Except of course, he's part of a team. Forfeiting his match involves more than just him.

Its selfish and immature on his part. Why is he on the team then if the thought of wrestling a girl (which he must have known was going to happen sooner or later) was going to mean he would withdraw? He says it's his religion that's preventing him yet he's (a religiously based home schooler) been granted permission to be on the secular public high school team. And pulls this stunt at the state championships???

And this is all okay because ya know, he's religious and he's being mature and responsible....? I don't get your point.

[quakerboy]

106. That makes some big assumptions

I do not assume that he knew he was going to face a female opponent. The article states "Herkelman (20-13), a freshman, and Ottumwa, Iowa sophomore Megan Black (25-13) are the first two girls ever to qualify for the state individual tournament, which goes back to 1926.". Plus he's a pastors son, and a home schooled sophomore, which makes him approximately 16 and male and probably sheltered from a lot of experience in the world. In my experience of people, this is not a demographic likely to think through all the ramifications of doing something.

I also do not assume that his team has a problem with the situation. It would be natural for them to have disapointment, but worthwhile teams I have been a part of would accept that winning is not everything and that team mates have weaknesses. They knew he was home schooled and the son of a minister when they took him on. But his skill level apparently made it worth it to have him on the team. They chose him. He had this problem. He dealt with it in what I think, for a sheltered 16 year old boy, is a very mature way.

[SnakeEyes]

193. This is the individual state tournament

Not the team state dual tournament. He qualified on his own, he chose to forfeit what ultimately only impacts him. While the individual state tournament does give points for a win to the school you represent, and an overall trophy to the team that collects the most points over the course of the tournament, his school didn't have enough wrestlers earn spots in the state tournament for the team to win an overall award anyway. So the forfeit here means nothing in that regard. He wouldn't have known he might have had to wrestle a girl sooner or later as it's not *that* common. Most wrestlers go through their entire career never wrestling a girl.

[riderinthestorm]

195. For this match. But it will come up again. And then he will impact his team.

And yes, in 1980, girls won the right to wrestle at my own high school. That means it's been going on for more than 3 decades as far as I know (in my Rethug, Chicago area, rich suburb). Any boy who gets into wrestling knows from the start that he may face a girl at some point - probably not so much at the higher weights, but the lower ones, certainly.

ETA: Women's wrestling is an Olympic Sport! Where do you think they learn to wrestle at that level? They learn to do that with other boys and men since (as you've said yourself), women are rare at the lower levels.

[SnakeEyes]

230. Chances are it won't come up again

It's never been an issue for him until this season and only came after the season in the state tournament. It's a rare occurrence. Likely he'll be at a different weight next year. Only in the wrestlebacks this tournament might they meet again.

[Goblinmonger]

92. Did you play sports?

I didn't wrestle (but my son does) but these are good athletes and they aren't going to be thinking about sex. Why would it be any less awkward when your hand goes on some other guy's junk? You aren't thinking about it; you are thinking about what you need to do to win.

[KatyMan]

116. I was actually being flippant more than anything...

shoulda used a smiley! :)
Didn't play any organized sports, no.

[Goblinmonger]

256. Sorry

I'm a teacher in Wisconsin so my flippant meter may very well be on the fritz right now.
:toast:

[SnakeEyes]

189. He specifically cited getting physical with as girl

wrestling can be a violent sport.

[Journeyman]

13. Well, here's another subject I've never considered and have no opinion upon. . .

Used to "wrestle" a lot with girls while in high school, usually in the backseat of my car, but can't see how that's relevant to this discussion. I'll just leave my contribution at that.

[WinkyDink]

16. Oh, I think your contribution is on the mark, actually.

[JoePhilly]

48. Exactly ... I'd be as uncomforatable as I was in the same situation you describe ...

I mean, as a teen boy, if you are straight, you are probably also actively trying to get some number of girls to let you touch them.

Thinking back, the moment of truth in such situations is scary as hell. Did you wait long enough before trying? Will she let you? Will she SMACK THE CRAP OUT OF YOU ... and then run and tell her friends you are an evil jerk-off?

So in this case, you are going to get to touch this girl, a lot. And she is going to touch you. You don't know her. But you do know she wants to kick your butt.

AND, you also know that maybe 100 or more people will be watching what happens. So if you do grab one of her breasts, what do THEY think? You grab her ass to get leverage so you can roll her over, what do they think?

Intellectually, it should be no big deal ... but for a teenage boy, I can see him being uncomfortable. I wonder if he knew he was going to wrestle a girl or if he "suddenly" found out. That might make a difference. You could get yourself past the discomfort if you had time to really think it over.

My tactic I think would be to recall the girl I dated a long, long, time ago, who got angry because I did NOT try to touch her breasts while we made out in my car. She explained that she would have stopped me, BUT she would have liked to know that I wanted to do it anyway. As you might imagine, my next girl friend turned out to NOT have a secret hope that I'd make the move when I did, and I got yelled at again.

[MedicalAdmin]

58. So look at it as an object lesson for the young lad...

in getting over sexism and objectification of women.

[MineralMan]

66. +10

[JoePhilly]

77. Oh sure ... as an adult, I can easily get there ... but ..

having been a teenage boy, struggling with the fact that girls are soft and tend to smell nice ... and having feelings that are a bit confusing, I understand the discomfort.

As I said, given advanced warning, I think he, or probably any boy could get comfortable with this situation.

I will note that when I saw the phrase "home-schooled", I did take pause and consider the very real possibility that there is also a religious thing going on in this specific case ... and it may be one that intentionally puts women in "another class".

But I decided to not start there, but simply to think back about how I may have reacted when I was in high school.

And honestly, I don't think about it being sexist or the objectification of women. Teens, both boys and girls, going through puberty and entering into early adulthood struggle to understand their feelings.

In this regard, honestly, they tend to objectify each other to a certain degree.

[MedicalAdmin]

86. Yes - good points but if I may interject a small word.

In order to become an adult who isn't a frothing bigot (Beck for example) then one must start to get over your tendancy to objectify women and that match was as good a place as any. I give the kid kudo for not making a stink and backing out gracefully, but it's still a lost opportunity that his parents or coach should have encouraged (and perhaps did). Maybe he saw her and was completely twitterpated. Maybe... who knows.

Granted, noticing differences is part of growing up (viva la difference), but the ability to get over it is necessary to become fully mature, IMHO.

[JoePhilly]

99. Agree ... I get the sense that the discussion you and I are having

will not be happening at this kid's house, and I would be surprised if a coach wanted to wander into this space, and have parents rip him apart for saying that "groping girls" is ok ... if you follow me.

[MedicalAdmin]

123. Yes - you are right.

On all accounts.

As a former coach I used to step into those places, but then again I didn't give a shit if I was fired or not. And I wasn't. It was a different day.

[WinkyDink]

14. ITA. Who would be the first to object to a crotch hold, eh?

[ohiosmith]

22. Or checking the oil.

[somone]

34. There is a maneuver called a "butt drag" in high school wrestling

which is sometimes performed like a prostate exam.

'Nuf said.

[MineralMan]

36. I believe that is against the rules in high school wrestling.

Kid in California got expelled for it, as I remember. I suppose if it's legal, the girl wrestlers might use it to. Everyone has one, you know.

[rhett o rick]

163. How would that be different than with two guys wrestling?

When you have your face smashed into the mat with your arm breaking behind you, you dont worry too much about a crotch hold.

[damntexdem]

17. Well, the female opponent only has two feet, whereas the recalcitrant wrestler can have a forfeit.

;-)

[MineralMan]

25. LOL!

[surrealAmerican]

37. DUzy!

[jberryhill]

255. That's an odd number of feet

But four is an even number. The only number that can be even and odd is infinity.

Therefore, this boy has an infinite number of feet.

[FLPanhandle]

18. From a young boy I was taught not to fight with girls

It would be hard to break that upbringing even for a competition.

[MineralMan]

27. They're not fighting, really. It's an athletic event.

Nobody's pissed off. It's a strength event.

[FLPanhandle]

32. I understand, but it wouldn't compute for me

Pissed or not, I couldn't break that upbringing.

[MineralMan]

35. Then, I assume, you wouldn't engage in that sport.

It's a matter of personal choice I think. This young woman wrestles. I suspect she knows that will result in physical contact. She doesn't seem concerned. Why should anyone else be.

[SnakeEyes]

194. For some here, including myself

It's not simply the physical contact, it's the type physical contact in wrestling. The fact that wrestling is a contact sport and a violent one at times. If this were basketball, playing the lane, hand checkinng, whatever... no problem.

Same reason I am also uncomfortable with intergender boxing/mma and would never participate in such a thing.

The idea that I shouldn't be a wrestler because I object to being physical with a girl is mindblowing.

[riderinthestorm]

199. The fact that you would deny the girl her chance to wrestle is mindblowing.

It's sexist and outdated. They used to say the same thing about tennis... Billie Jean King anyone?

The girl wrestler is clearly capable. Frankly, I'd love to see her kick his ass.

[MedicalAdmin]

67. Couldn't as in lack the ability to break...

... or did you mean to type wouldn't - as in lack the desire to change?

I think you mean to say that it would be difficult for you to do, but that if you had to you would even if you didn't enjoy it. Couldn't means that the ability or capacity to change would be missing from you entirely.

[FLPanhandle]

125. Meant that it would be difficult

Not impossible.

[MedicalAdmin]

130. Gotcha - and yes, I'm a grammar nazi.

Comes with the autism spectrum.


Thanks for clarifying that.

[KansasVoter]

100. Are you serious? Or joking.

[Dappleganger]

19. I respect that he didn't ask for special treatment and forfeited.

But what I want to know, why is that any different than wrestling another boy? Either sex you are still going to grab their parts.

[Lance_Boyle]

26. you might contact 'parts'

but grabbing them would be penalized.

Wrestling involves too close contact between competitors to be gender-integrated outside of consenting adults' bedrooms.

[MineralMan]

30. Why? What about ballet? Lots of contact in that activity.

The girl knows that contact will be made. They're not having a sexual encounter. It's an athletic event. Everything is not about sex.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

87. It's kind of a puzzle, huh?

[SnakeEyes]

197. he cited the physical nature of the sport

as in it's generally aggressive and sometimes violent.

[Reader Rabbit]

24. Our school has a number of girls who wrestle with the boys.

The girls are athletes and competitors. They workout, they win or lose, they are part of the team. None of our girls has ever had a problem with any of the grappling, take-downs, or holds that are part of the sport. Those who do simply don't wrestle.

[MineralMan]

31. Yup. It's their choice.

Some people seem really squeamish about contact between boys and girls, it seems. Athletes, dancers, and others separate sex from performance all the time. It's part of the deal.

[cbdo2007]

28. It would make me uncomfortable. That is a full contact sport....

not like soccer or other sports where they intermingle boys and girls.

Even "play" wrestling with a girl can end up awkward if you accidentally touch a boob or something. When you're wrestling, you are rarely completely aware where on your opponent you are grabbing, you're just grasping trying to get a hold.

[MineralMan]

33. Yes, just like ballet or acrobatics, huh?

Did you know that both men and women have "breasts." Even nipples. It's just a chest if you're wrestling. It's a sport, not an orgy.

[cbdo2007]

40. Men have breasts too??!?!?

ha ha, I know that. Ballet is planned out meticulously. Wrestling is much more raw and random.

I would just hate for a random grasp to be mistaken for trying to cop a feel, by the girl, my teammates, or her parents.

[MineralMan]

44. Why would it be mistaken for that? I don't get it.

The girl knows, obviously that wrestling involves that sort of contact. The boys do, too. The parents will figure it out at the first match if they don't already know. It's a freaking sport. Everyone participating knows what the sport entails. All are willing participants.

If it's boys wrestling there's the same contact. I guess I don't see the difference, really.

[cbdo2007]

51. It's all about perception. You don't think there are ever misunderstandings in life??

Sure it happens but what if it happens for 5 seconds instead of 3? If you can't see the fine line here, I don't think you're looking realistically at how easily things can be misinterpreted.

[ohheckyeah]

238. A male opponent could

think you are gay and coping a feel if it happens for 5 seconds instead of 3. So?

[MedicalAdmin]

71. Either a move is legal or it's not.

Why would there be different rules. Man - there is a lot of old school puritan ideas on this subject here on DU.

Hey Beav, it's not the 50s anymore. Woman are people too.

[Goblinmonger]

97. Wrestling isn't really that random.

They drill their moves and try to execute them in the match. Sure there may be the occasional time your hand touches their naughty bits, but it isn't random. Raw might be a good word.

[fishwax]

287. It's not unusual for teenage boys to be uncomfortable with ballet, too

;)

In general, though, I agree with your initial post -- she's got every right to wrestle and he's welcome to deal with the consequences if he'd rather not wrestle against her.

[joquan]

29. his loss

[KamaAina]

38. Joel got beat by a gi-irl! Joel got beat by a gi-irl!

:P

[MineralMan]

41. In the 112 lb. class, it's a fine distinction, really.

Think about it.

[surrealAmerican]

42. Girls have been competing with boys ...

... in high school wrestling for at least 25 years. He's a 112 lb. kid. I'm surprised this is the first time he's been up against a girl.

[MineralMan]

45. Apparently the girls do pretty well in those smaller classes, if

they're getting to the state tournament. Good for them!

[seabeyond]

62. never heard of it. then my bad. we have seperate teams.

[NoGOPZone]

79. In wrestling, seperate teams are the exception rather than the rule

in most areas, there aren't enough women competing for female only teams, so they have to wrestle coed if they want to wrestle as a varsity sport. This may eventually change, womens wrestling has been an olympic sport since 2004, so the sport is growing, but if a state like Iowa where wrestling is very popular doesn't have a women's tournament I suspect few states do.

[MineralMan]

82. Women's wrestling teams are more common at the college

level. They're very rare in high schools. Probably there aren't enough girls interested to form a team. So, they wrestle on the boy's team. I think that's really cool. Good for them. They're doing what they want to do.

[SnakeEyes]

198. I can say it's not that common to have wrestled a girl

even in a big wrestling state as Iowa. And I wrestled lower weights where you're more likely to see girls wrestling. Never wrestled one. Only saw it once in four years with the IA school I wrestled for and that was a JV weekend tournament. Sure, I saw it at youth wrestling a few times. Not common.

Wrestlers often get to knows others from others schools, especially the longer you wrestle. You go to the same tournaments with the same teams, in-season and off-season weekend tournaments and what not. It's really easy to, especially with all the down time of the weekend individual tournaments. None of them ever had to wrestle a girl and most of them hadn't ever seen a girl wrestle at a HS meet or tournament.

[seabeyond]

46. seperate. i agree. nt

[CreekDog]

115. well what about for this match? separate?

should they change the policies after the fact?

[seabeyond]

127. i had a baby on my lap. didnt read it all, or closely enough. i dont know.

as i said in a post above, we have seperate male/female teams in our area. didnt realize this is not unusual.

[CreekDog]

275. i get that, but i was asking if you expect them to break their own rules

to keep her from wrestling this boy.

now if she loses the opportunity to wrestle, despite following the rules, do you support that?

i think what you are trying to say is that you think she should be able to wrestle females and he should be able to opt out of wrestling females.

but what do you do about NOW? and if you stop her from wrestling, because there is a team or because this boy complained, will following your direction result in unfair treatment of this girl AND violation of the rules and policies that allow her to participate as she has been doing?

[seabeyond]

277. i didnt read it all. but per what you say, if the rules are in for her to wrestle boys

then it is there. boys have to accept. i have thought about it since, and i still feel that it isnt a good thing that she is allowed to wrestle with the boys for a couple of reasons. but if that is the rule, that girls can wrestle, the boys have to suck it up and make their choices. or what i would tell my boys. they can make their choice. i would see how it would cause them problems, the way i raised them. but i would hope i could convince them, the way i raised them, to go in, hold nothing back and kick her tush (in the competitive sense). but they may chose to not wrestle, or not do as well, because concerned on hurting her.

[CreekDog]

279. thanks for clarifying

:hi:

[CreekDog]

57. This thread is a safe place to support discrimination against women

oh well.

[seabeyond]

61. meh. i was competitive athlete for two decades practicing next to the boys....

though meets were by gender, as a team we were gender free.

all for it.

but wrestling is not the sport.

imo

i dont see it as discrimination. i see it as a need to get some female wrestling teams. we have those here.

[CreekDog]

75. if they are saying he shouldn't have to wrestle her and lose, then that's discrimination

and could violate Title IX.

meh or not, there are consequences at the other end of following people's suggestions here.

and now that she's competing and they have been allowing her to compete, changing the rules on her and forcing her into some other team or league would be discriminating against her based on her gender.

[SnakeEyes]

203. Not saying he shouildn't have to

Just that there is nothing wrong with make the choice not to. It's not a fear of losing. I don't know a single guy that would forfeit a match at the individual Iowa State Tournament, which is really really tough to make it to and where you're on your own trying to get there. Nobody risks the chance of going two and out after all that work just because they fear losing to a girl. It's probably as he cited, the physical aspect of it. I would make the same choice myself since I'm uncomfortable getting aggressive with a girl.

[seabeyond]

267. this is my problem with it. way i raised two boys, i know it would be hard for them. give girl

unfair advantage. just no two ways about it.

[Uzybone]

63. oh well, she wins; he loses

Maybe he was scared to compete against her. After all she did have 20 wins under her belt, so she obviously has some skill.

[11 Bravo]

133. I believe he had 35 wins and was a favorite for the state title.

I say good for her, if she wants to wrestle, then let her wrestle, but to say that he was afraid of losing to her seems foolish. It would appear that he was more afraid of hurting her. (By the way, the other female in the tournament was pinned in 52 seconds.)

[SnakeEyes]

205. I wouldn't put too much thought into

the other female being pinned in 52 seconds. To even make the individual state tournament in Iowa is very tough. The fact they even made it says a lot about their skill. Especially so for this girl since she is at a 3A school, the second class level from the top in Iowa high school sports. And the first round pairings are done randomly.

[Rabrrrrrr]

68. Why is that girl even being educated anyway? When the hell did that start?!

The boy is right. Not only should he not be wrestling a girl, it is a moral failure that a girl is even in a school, let alone be on a sports team. That must be a very unchristian, God-hating town.

[riderinthestorm]

72. LOL! nt

[MedicalAdmin]

81. And shouldn't she be married and baking a bun in the oven already.

God, the misogony runneth thick on the floor today.

[rhett o rick]

144. Very good. nm

[Blue_Tires]

76. It's a good thing Northrup is homeschooled

His classmates would razz him for the rest of his natural life

[MineralMan]

80. For those who are still confused...

Boys and girls have been wrestling together on high school teams for over 30 years. Go to YouTube and search for girl wrestler. Lots of videos of high school matches. Sometimes the girls win. Sometimes they lose. It ain't sex. It's wrestling.

[Upton]

91. I'm not confused..

just looking upthread...you think males and females both have the same kind of breasts, there's no difference between wrestling a boy or a girl, and ballet and wrestling are virtually the same thing..

Have I got it all?

[MineralMan]

101. Yah, you've got it pretty straight.

[CreekDog]

113. the rules are that they were to wrestle each other

are you saying your suggested rules should apply in this case, or if your rules are adopted, they should apply after that point?

because we are talking about this particular match where a set of rules already applies --i'm just wondering if you think those should've been set aside in this case in favor of your preferred policies.

[MineralMan]

117. Hmm...

OK, tell me in what ways male and female breasts differ. How are the structures different? Next, since wrestlers are paired by weight classes, and since this girl has won 20 matches and lost 13 matches against boys, where is the difference in skill or strength? Finally, ballet and wrestling are similar in that hand to crotch contact is common in both. Other than that, they're both strength and balance-based activities. Different rules and different goals, but that's about it.

I'll look forward to your responses.

[snooper2]

128. "tell me in what ways male and female breasts differ"

Well, first off we have to know how overweight the man is :P

:hide:

[MineralMan]

169. Or how skinny the woman is.

The girl in this story is 14. I saw her on the evening news. She's about an AA bra size. Virtually no difference between her and the barely pubescent 112 lb. boy she's wrestling, I'd guess. Unless, that is, he has gynecomastia, a very common thing with adolescent boys.

[Blue_Tires]

94. not confused;

we had girl wrestlers in my high school (even made the local newspaper)...

I was just saying the kids would razz him for asking out of the match...

[MineralMan]

114. They might. There are team scores at these tournaments, and his

teammates are probably a little peeved that he forfeited a match he probably would have won. They'll all get over it, though, I'm sure.

[KansasVoter]

98. My son was a state finisher and I would bet this kid did not want to get beat by a girl!

[MineralMan]

105. Well, Cassy's record for the season is 20W-13L, so a loss

would certainly be possible. Looks like she's pretty good for a freshman. I don't think that was his reason, though. He stated his reason.

[quakerboy]

108. "He was a state title contender with a 35-4 record"

by the numbers he sure looked to have had a good shot at a win. I agree with you that he stated his main reason.

[MineralMan]

110. He probably would have won the match, with that record.

BTW, the other young woman in the tournament lost her match by a fall in under a minute. Tomorrow, Cassy will face a new opponent. I assume that match will take place. Good luck to both of them. Who wins or loses doesn't really matter to me, since I don't know either kid.

The only two girls at the tournament were in the 112 lb. class. One lost. One is going on to the next level.

My problem really isn't with the boy at all. He made his decision, based on his own reasons, and took a forfeit. That ends it, as far as I'm concerned. This thread, though, took on its own life, it seems, with a lot of other issues being raised.

It's just a high school wrestling tournament, for pete's sake. I hope all the kids there enjoy the competition.

[KansasVoter]

118. The excuse he used is silly IMO.

[MineralMan]

121. Well, I don't know about that, really.

It's his reason, and he stood by it and took the forfeit. I really have no problem with his decision. It does raise a question, however, about his future participation on that team. If girls are allowed to wrestle in Iowa, the problem will arise again, almost certainly. I would think his coach would have to stop and think about his continued participation.

It's a minor thing, really. High school sports. A kid takes a forfeit and his opponent advances. The tournament goes on. The loser is the kid who took the forfeit, it seems to me. His principles, whatever they're based on, had that result.

Had he been a racist and refused to wrestle a black kid, or refused to wrestle a Muslim kid because of his religious beliefs, we'd be in the same argument, I suppose, but he'd still have lost the match by a forfeit. I doubt, however, in those cases, this thread would be as long as it is. Some kinds of prejudice are more acceptable, it seems, than others.

[SnakeEyes]

208. Wrestling is an aggressive sport

I'd feel uncomfortable wrestling a girl because of that too. As a mother of a wrestler, I'm sure you know what a crossface is. It wouldn't feel right throwing one on a girl, among other things.

[SnakeEyes]

207. Nobody gives up an opening round match

at the Iowa State Tournament simply for not wanting to lose to a girl. No way. It's far too difficult and takes too much individual work to get there to just give up for that reason. Has to be a deeply held conviction not to wrestle a woman due to the physicality of the sport, as he stated.

[AzDar]

104. I don't think home-schooled kids should be playing school-league sports.

:hide:

[Spike89]

107. Handled pretty well it seems by both sides

The kid that forfeited seems fine, he didn't say a truly sexist thing about his opponent, only that he considers wrestling a combat sport with a violent nature and he felt that men should not engage in violent physical activity with women. I think his definition of what constitutes violence may be off--it is a sport and not a true "fight" but I can see where the kid comes from and it does sound sincere, he's not the one making a big deal out of this--he's going to continue wrestling in the consolation bracket.
As for the "team" aspect...well, that might have some sway in dual matches, but typically in the state tournament, it is really an individual thing...in fact, he may very well be the only wrestler from his school that qualified.
The "he's home-schooled, why is he wrestling on a public school team?" makes as much sense as asking why someone without a library card might drop by the public library to do some research. Every kid is entitled to a free education--how much of that they take advantage of is up to them and their parents (assuming of course the kid is getting an education somewhere).
I totally agree that it is appropriate for boys and girls to wrestle. I also think that it is appropriate for some people to choose not to participate. The kid, his parents, and no school people connected with this story were quoted as trying to prevent the girl from wrestling, or advocating that girls be banned. This really isn't a big story.

[nomb]

112. I was undefeated, but I had to wrestle, a blind school, a deaf school and a reform school.

I also had to wrestle a brutally competitive religious school filled with real farm boys which practiced with the college team and were coached by a gold medalist.

I don't think I ever heard of the blind team winning more than a handful of matches, the deaf were also poor wrestlers (balance issues) and the reform school simply showed up.

I knew of guys that both wrestled and forfeit matches with girls. Had I drawn one, I probably would have treated them equally and wrestled them - I can tell you honestly it would likely not have been a pretty sight and would have risked seriously harming them. A serious wrestler in a competitive state like Iowa can be a very dangerous opponent. She was up against a light sophomore with a 35-4 record, if she later continues on the team and goes up against an undefeated senior in a more middle weight like 128 or above she will be at tremendous physical risk.

[SnakeEyes]

209. The fact she actually made State says a lot

but I agree with you about her continuing on. She's going to have to continue to cut to lower weights to remain competitive unless she is able to build. As a guy that wrestled in Iowa, I cut to lower weights because I couldn't remain competitive strength wise.

[DavidDvorkin]

119. Millions of high-school boys instantly volunteer to substitute for him.

[MineralMan]

122. LOL! You might be surprised, actually.

Lots of boys on wrestling teams struggle with wrestling girls, and for many reasons. Others don't care, and just wrestle to win the match. I like the second group better. They're focused on wrestling, without the other baggage, whatever it is.

[dd2003]

126. I would have done the same

I believe in equality and woman in most sports. However, I would never compete against a woman in wrestling, judo, or boxing. All other sports I have competed with and have no problem with it. I just have a problem with inflicting violence on woman.

[we can do it]

131. My Faith Made Me Do It.....Well If That's More Important YOU LOSE DUDE

[Mimosa]

251. What if a person's faith makes him or her a conscientious objector?

Is it easier to laugh at this kid now?

[we can do it]

259. Yep He Chose To Play a Sport, He's Afraid To Lose To a Girl

maybe she should just stay home in a burka and have babies , right?

[originalpckelly]

132. 1. Boner alert, 2. He didn't want to get his ass whooped by a girl.

[11 Bravo]

139. 3. Horseshit

He was 35-4 and a favorite for the state title. I disagree with his decision, but he expressed it in nothing but respectful terms. I think he was afraid he might hurt her; and was also a victim of some sort of home-school, fundie, he might touch her nasty bits, up-bringing.
In any case, a blanket accusation of cowardice is, while both easy and predictable; also a textbook example of your typical, intellectually lazy, internet crap.

[nomb]

135. Some images of High School Wrestlers...

[nomb]

142. For those that have never felt it or saw it before - the strange injury is called "Cauliflower Ear"

Sometimes it can be reduced, sometimes it permanently scars. It is unbearably painful for a long time.

[jberryhill]

143. Kinda interesting that kids with ears like that decide to wrestle

I wonder if whatever genetic trait does that to ears is cross linked to a desire to wrestle.

[nomb]

146. Images of torn bodies, unnaturally bent limbs and protruding bones would not have been tasteful here

[jberryhill]

155. Oh, I dunno

There's videos of Beck, Palin and Bachmann in the video forum, so it's hard to tell.

[Heddi]

288. Is that a serious question? The wrestling causes the ear to look like that. So does boxing

There's nothing genetic about the ear's appearance.

It's called Cauliflower Ear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauliflower_ear

"...a condition that occurs when the external portion of the ear suffers a blow, blood clot or other collection of fluid under the perichondrium. This separates the cartilage from the overlying perichondrium that supplies its nutrients, causing it to die and resulting in the formation of fibrous tissue in the overlying skin. As a result, the outer ear becomes permanently swollen and deformed, resembling a cauliflower.

The condition is most common among wrestlers and martial artists. It can also occur when an ear cartilage piercing becomes infected.

Headgear (called a "scrum cap") that protects the ears is worn in wrestling and rugby, many martial arts and other contact sports to help prevent this condition. For some athletes, however, a cauliflower ear is considered a badge of courage or experience. <2>"

[Manifestor_of_Light]

258. Ewww....

I knew boxers got cauliflower ears but not wrestlers. Learned something today.

If the kid wants to forfeit because he doesn't want to wrestle a girl, fine with me.

Ballet dancers and ice skaters don't have a problem with physical contact with the opposite sex.

[RocketTuna]

293. Do you have a point?

Because I'm not seeing it...

[JI7]

136. I wonder if the boy comes from some religious family

his parents probably think it's not right to have such contact with a girl even if it's not sexual .

it reminds me of the oldest Duggar boy who was going to get married. even though they were already engaged they did not kiss until after they were married.

for some people it's not just sex but they migh not want other contact either.

[polmaven]

200. If his religion

is behind his not wanting to wrestle a girl, then he should not be on a wrestling team in a state where it is possible for that eventuality to come up, should he?

[SnakeEyes]

210. rare occurance.

Chances of any one wrestler being paired up with a girl is rare.

[polmaven]

213. I understand that...

but it occurs, so he should not be on a team where it could occur.

[JI7]

224. if it's rare he probably took the chance it wont happen, but once it did at least he didn't

complain and try to change the rules though maybe it might have been better to not be on the team. but it's just one of those things that happen.

[SnakeEyes]

234. It's not that he took a chance

It's that the thought never really even crosses one's mind as it's that rare. Only time it ever comes up is the rare chance it happens to someone on your team or you read about it like we are now

In the four years wrestling for a major HS in Iowa, I only saw it once at a JV tournament. Never to me.

[Zephie]

137. The amount of people piling on this kid for being homeschooled makes me sad

Yes, his decision was mysoginistic and wrong, but saying that home schoolers should be completely left out of extra-curricular activities is just mean. It's not like many of these kids made the choice themselves; I know I didn't. Those that say hang out with other home schoolers? Do you realize how few of us there are some places? It's a very isolated life, especially if you are lacking siblings. I would have given my eye teeth to be welcomed into some extra-curricular activities. Why would you support denying children fun and social interaction based on their parents schooling choices? That's really heartbreaking of you, DU.

[rhett o rick]

150. You are very right. I feel sorry for kids that are home schooled. nm

[Zephie]

152. It is a very lonely life. I did learn a lot, but I would have much rather been with other children

[Spike89]

153. yeah, that subtext was a surprise to me too

Of course a kid has a right to participate in activities at the school that his family's taxes go to support...geez! Just like kids that go to private schools have every right (legally and ethically) to assistive technology if needed for their education--the public school system is required to provide resources to all students--that is what the friggen word "public" means.

[JoePhilly]

159. I think you hit the home school issue well ...

This article really has 2 parts ...

1) Boys wrestling girls. Why, why not.

2) Home school kids and where they fit in #1.

#1 as its own set of issues ... like how the average teen boy would feel "touching" one girl (not his girl friend) in places that his actually girl friend won't let him touch at all, while a 100 or so people watch and "cheer".

#2 adds a few additional complications. Like isolation, as you mention. Or the not uncommon religious view that women are not supposed to engage men in work or physical competition, ever.

Ideally, we could toss both #1 and #2 out.

A boy grabbing a girl's chest in wrestling is NOT the same as if he did the same thing in the school hallway. But I can hear some people saying ... "Why did he keep grabbing her chest??".

And then, there are the religious groups that promote that women are subservient to men, and so they can not and should not compete with men.

[SnakeEyes]

212. Or that he's uncomfortable with the violent

nature of the sport when his opponent is a girl, as he stated.

[polmaven]

202. I could not agree with you more!

n/t

[October]

206. Sorry to hear that

My children ASKED to be home schooled so as to pursue their passion(s).

This was a relatively easy decision for our family because we support their art form, and we liked being able to choose their curriculum.

They are not lonely, as they have other children pursuing their goals alongside them.

One point -- our taxes are welcome by the district, so our children should be, too. Not that we pressed that issue... but it's silly for so many to be hateful to the home schooled kids. Very disturbing trend. Many of us are liberal families, and a lot of schools have 'conservative' slants. It's not so black-and-white an issue.

[lumberjack_jeff]

241. School really is a power trip for some.

"Submit to my classroom authority or forego any of the benefits your tax dollars."

There's a 50:50 chance I'll homeschool my son next year. Teachers are not up to the task of preventing middle school bullying of the disabled.

If we decide to do that, he will continue in band though. They're welcome to cluck disapprovingly about it.

[rhett o rick]

147. Unbelievable unRec's going on. Wow, bigots right here in DU. nm

[treestar]

148. I'm amazed that's even come up

Aren't the boys and girls teams separate?

[MineralMan]

171. No. Most high schools don't have girl's wrestling teams. Girls who

want to wrestle have no option but to join the boys team. In college, some have women's wrestling teams, but most don't. Women's wrestling was just accepted as an Olympic sport in 2004, so it's pretty new.

Iowa, apparently, like a lot of other states, lets girls wrestle with the boys teams. This particular girl has a season record of 20 wins and 13 losses, so, as a freshman, she's doing pretty well. Making it to the state tournament is not easy.

[rhett o rick]

149. I have found that when boys and girls compete in sports, they gain a greater respect for each other.

just sayin.

[MellowDem]

154. Nothing wrong with it...

A lot of people seem to be assuming a lot on here about his motivations, but it seems he thinks it would be a sexual sin of some sort. If so, it's not like it's based on sexism or anything. You might think it's silly, but it's not harmful.

Seriously, I would have reservations just based on secular grounds at that age. Going up against girls in sports is usually a lose lose for a guy. If you win, it was just a girl. If you lose, you lost to a girl. And of course in this instance, the likelihood of touching areas of a girl.

I can't imagine this kid has much sexual experience yet. Assuming he doesn't, and the way he was raised, and his age and the general awkwardness of teenagers anyways, I highly doubt he wants his "first time" touching a girl's parts to be in a wrestling match in a public forum. If some guy had banged half the cheerleader squad and was very sexually confident, I doubt they would care and could separate the two. But for someone with such sexual morals and likely no experience, it could be a big problem.

And it swings both ways. I go to a yoga class, which could be said to be much less "embarassing" than a wrestling match since it involves no contact at all. I'm the only guy in the class and I'm in freakin college, but girls avoid sitting around me and esepcially in front of me like the plauge. I'm guessing gender has something to do with it. Only when there are no more spots left will they fill in near me. Girls seem to have quite a few issues as well overall. Moreso than guys in my experience. They're embarassed to even work out around guys many times. To wrestle, you already have to be somewhat mature about such things as it is.

[Spike89]

158. Actually, he stated his motivations in the article

He didn't say a thing about sex. His stated reason for not wrestling a female was that he considers wrestling a violent contest and doesn't believe men should engage in violence against women. Of course teens (and adults too) have a variety of motivations and he probably feels some maybe all of the things people have mentioned, but that is just an assumption.

[MellowDem]

165. From the article...

"I have a tremendous amount of respect for Cassy and Megan and their accomplishments. However, wrestling is a combat sport and it can get violent at times. ... It is unfortunate that I have been placed in a situation not seen in most of the high school sports in Iowa."

Doesn't say that he believes that men should not engage in violence against women. Sounds more like a general apprehension to me about the high amount of contact. Well, that's what I read into it... but who knows.

[ScreamingMeemie]

157. At the end of the day, it was this boy's decision. Why the uproar?

My son plays football. Another team (middle school) has a girl on it. He plays defense. She is a running back/WR. He was afraid to touch her. I could understand his reasoning. End of story.

[KamaAina]

167. So he'd just let her score?!

That sounds very un-SmallerMeemie-like to me! Where's the stud who stole home a couple of years ago? :shrug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

170. Oh no. He went at her. After I told him that her parents signed the same

release form that I did. That she wanted to play and that it would be a disservice to himself and to her as well if he didn't give it his best.

He was uncomfortable though. That's the part I can understand. When we heard there was a girl on the other team, we thought it would be the kicker for some reason (they tend to be kickers here in TX) We were stunned when she walked on the field. She's a pretty good runner as well.

[Riftaxe]

166. He should have just restricted himself to contact

that would not get him arrested outside of the ring. It's obvious he just did not want that challenge :)

[Tashca]

168. The bigger story

I'm sorry the bigger story is missed by this kids action, but at least it gained national attention and people are talking about it.

You need to understand something. These two girls made it to the State tournament here in Iowa. Any boy that makes it has bragging rights for life it seems. This is a first. They are competing in class 4A which is the largest schools. Many of the athletes that compete in the State tournament go on to division 1 and 2 schools all over the country. These are some of the best of the best......and in particular in the 4A division. This is a major achievement that will have a positive impact for the sport. I would love to one day see girls teams. Their in not a school in the State that could field a team right now. I see this as positive.

I am not familiar with the girl from Marion. I am familiar with the one from Ottumwa. I do know at her home in her families barn she hung a climbing rope. She climbs that rope to the top a minimum of 8 times a day......with out using her legs. These girls are outstanding athletes.

As far as the boy defaulting......who cares? That is his decision. I know a boy who wrestled a girl a couple of years ago. He was an outstanding wrestler. He was nervous wrestling a girl. He wasn't sure how to react. She grabbed him and slammed him to the mat in short order. He never once gave it another thought about her being a girl after that. He was fighting for survival.

[ZombieHorde]

173. Maybe he is afraid of getting an erection in his tight wrestling shorts. nt

[DevonRex]

265. Finally someone said it. There's no way the boy could have put that in writing.

So he makes general comments about the full contact nature of the sport and throws in a thing about faith to make his parents happy. You can bet that boy is still a virgin and it's not crazy for him to worry about having an erection, in front of a crowd of spectators no less.

[riderinthestorm]

175. Kicking to top nt

[upi402]

201. Forfeit, she wins, non-story

[U4ikLefty]

239. Yesterday, the Cleveland Cavaliers (10-46) beat the L.A. Lakers (38-19)

just sayin'

[AsahinaKimi]

246. Cool Photo

[Mimosa]

247. I am with Joel.

In general, guys are physically stronger. And no, males and females in high school should not be wrestling each other.

Females can't effectively compete in football or basketball, either. If a very young woman suffers a blow to the breast the injured tissue can become cancerous in her future.

Every person should be free to act according to his or her conscience without being put down by others.

That is why some people are conscientious objectors and others are not, for one thing.

And if people here on D.U. claim they respect anybody's rights to conscience or religion, say ISLAM, they should respect this young man's choice. In Islam or Orthodox Judaism it would equally be wrong for a man to wrestle with a woman.

[Rex]

248. Then I guess he is a loser.

[w8liftinglady]

250. Don't shoot me... three different life experiences..

1. my middle son was a wrestler in HS.There were incidents where they felt uncomfortable with certain holds. I imagine this might transcend to that.
2. my youngest son has a girl on his football team.never has been an issue in a team sport.
3. I was a powerlifter for years.There may be a sexist attitude about being beat by a girl,but I never saw that in powerlifting.We had competition classes based on age/sex/weight.We still all practiced together.I never felt inadequate.not all felt comfortable having the opposite as partners.It was OK.


You have to remember teens,folks.
As the mom of three sons,I can tell you what the kid's friends probably said to him
"Did you put your --- in her face?"
Did she put her --- in your face?"
...
It's a pretty sexual age.

My sister was a ballerina. She told me there were several incidences where girls were accidentally dropped because the guys were afraid to touch certain areas.I think maybe there are mixed messages at thast age.

[Mimosa]

252. Exactly.

And some of us can imagine the lawsuits if something goes wrong...

Wrestling isn't like golf or tennis.

[seabeyond]

268. i was in competitive sport right next to guys. place i knew there was equal and raised with

was always a respect for good performance and hard work. i dont see that as an issue either.

i see wrestling as the issue and the way i raised boys and KNOW how next to hard it would be for them to wrestle with a girl, their age, in something like this. for your reason. and for hesitant in hurting her, ..... putting them at a disadvantage

[Courtesy Flush]

257. Hover Hands: worst wrestling hold ever! nt

[WatsonT]

264. Entirely lose-lose for him

Either he is ostracized for hurting a girl or he is chided for losing to a girl. There is literally no benefit to him for doing this.

And should she be seriously harmed in this bout he is likely to face a great deal of social penalties and possibly legal ones as well.

She is putting him in a very unpleasant position. There are really good reasons why we separate genders for most sports.

[CreekDog]

270. this is her fault?

have you lost your mind?

:wtf:

she was simply going to participate in the match she was assigned.

[WatsonT]

273. No

but her presence does make things difficult for this kid.

But if we're looking to assign blame I'd go with evolution first, then thousands of years of social convention next.

[CreekDog]

274. But you said, "She is putting him in a very unpleasant position."

that's saying it's her fault.

so you take that part back?

[WatsonT]

276. No

Her presence is putting him in an awkward position. That is a fact.

But she hasn't done it intentionally and she hasn't done anything wrong. So it isn't her 'fault'. You seem dead-set on painting me as some kind of anti-woman crusader for my stance on . . . not supporting male on female violence.

If I stumble in on two people having sex in the broom closet that would likely be awkward for everyone involved. Doesn't mean I am to blame. It happened, because I was there, but I am not at fault for it.

Simple enough.

[riderinthestorm]

284. How about he put himself in his own damn awkward position by refusing to wrestle her.

And leave her out of it all together.

She was a legitimate contender. She won her place at the tournament fair and square. And anyone having a problem with that, had their own problem unrelated to her.

So what that wrestling is a rough sport - there have been girls wrestling with boys at competitions for a long time now without any dire consequences. Same with kickboxing, martial arts, the military and many, many other "dangerous", aggressive, dare I say even "violent" activities. The girls signed up for it. They know what they are getting into. The regulatory authorities agree to it (which means they presume nobody is going to die - except for that war part - doing this or their ass would be sued to hell and back).

[Mimosa]

286. Regulatory authorities in high school sports? Sounds NAZI to me.

In the US Constitution each human being has freedom od conscience above all.

I have actually engaged in combat sports including wrestling (when I was only 18) and later karate with males. There is a reason that the sports keep the sexes separated. Males are mostly physically stronger. If in a combat type sport a male combatant hurt a female (and mind you, they would by BIOLOGY hold back) and the female got hurt, the male would be held liable for physical damages. Males are stronger, 90% of the time. No male combatant in that type of sport is going to 'cut loose' with a woman. I had wrestled with an Army Ranger (no dead, sad to say). I was good. But there is no way he according to nature could end up fighting me as he would another man.

Women who allege we can fight like men are lying.

[riderinthestorm]

291. Yes, high school sports have governing bodies

As do most organized sports. Think FIFA for soccer, of the USEA for horse sports etc. That's not Nazi - like, it's a governing body that makes up rules and enforces them.

And this was a wrestling match between two opponents of equal weight. This wasn't a larger guy "hurting" a smaller woman, this was a match between two equally sized opponents. She had won 20 matches which demonstrates that she's plenty strong enough to be exactly where she was - at the state championships. You are trying to hold her back to keep her "safe" and I object. She has every right to have her shot.

[WatsonT]

290. Sure I guess we should be outraged every time

a male feels uncomfortable using violence against a woman. That is definitely a trend that is causing a lot of problems here. I mean sure we could go the other way and normalize spousal abuse, but at least we wouldn't have our highschool wrestling events occasionally interrupted slightly!

BTW: what do you suppose the social response would be to a guy who publicly breaks a womans arm?

[riderinthestorm]

292. I'm answering you but this goes for every other response just like this

Men abusing women in relationships isn't anywhere like a sporting competition. If you can't see the difference than I have nothing more to say to you on it. This is sports, it's not spousal abuse or even "violence" against a woman since both of them agreed to be "violent" with each other. They both signed forms agreeing to the match and if it's good enough for their parents and the league, its good enough for me.

If the guy breaks her arm, it's called a sports injury. Happens in high school sports every single day. Happens in regular sports too. If a boy slides into 3rd base and injures the girl 3rd baseman in Little League for example, nobody says "girls shouldn't be playing ball with boys!!111!! It's too dangerous for them!!111!! They may be hurt!1111". Everybody tends the injured player and the game goes on. It's called playing SPORTS, and it has nothing to do with spousal abuse or violence towards women. (Yes, girls have also - gasp! - been playing in Little League with the boys too! Oh noes!)

Denying girls and women their chance to be in equal competition with boys and men, when they have earned their shot, is demeaning them. And it's shameful.

[fishwax]

271. well, there's a state championship on the line, so it's not exactly lose lose

The female wrestler has a winning record this season and has qualified for the state tournament as a freshman (I think) in the most wrestling-crazed state in the country. Guys losing to her isn't all that unusual.

[SteppingRazor]

278. He had a serious belief, he stood by it, and he accepted the consequences.

Regardless of my opinion of his beliefs, I have to respect that.

[progressoid]

281. Because someone has a serious belief and they stand by it, you have to respect them?

GWB had a lot of serious beliefs about Iraq and stood by them, did you respect that?

[SteppingRazor]

282. What consequences did he accept for his actions?

On edit: Lemme be a bit more specific. This kid had a belief, knew that he would have to lose the match, and went ahead and stood by his belief knowing what would happen. I respect that.

George W. Bush is a raving human sacrifice who got off scot-free after unnecessarily causing the needless deaths of more than 4,000 American soldiers. The difference is huge.

[Book Lover]

294. Ha-ha! *Loser!*

Yeah, you don't want to get rough with the girl ... who is padded and capable of getting rough right back atcha, kiddo. Your faith? My ass!