On poverty, the deep south and voting "republican."

[nadinbrzezinski]

Some DU'ers have made the assumption that people in deep Appalachia vote for "Republicans." They have done this repeatedly here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x325058

I understand, but it is not as simple as voting for "republicans." I have chosen to use quotation marks for a reason. The region was first settled by Scott Irish who were descendants of Indentured Servants or servants themselves. This established a very strong relationship between the people and their social betters.

This did not change after independence, In fact, the area had a small invasion (that is the way it was seen) when the Army came through during the Whiskey Rebellion, because the people of this area refused to pay their taxes... as seen from Washington. Never mind that during the war of independence, for their own reasons, they kept the Reds shall we say... busy.

During the 19th century this area was quite isolated from the rest of the country, it is the geography stupid, and people developed their own very independent culture (from the rest of the country that is) and religious forms also rose that befuddle city folk, from outside the area, I suspect from inside the area too. (Yes things like snake handling ok)... Also social relations hardened between those at the bottom and those at the top. It is very much a master-servant relation like it existed in the home country in the 17th century.

The 20th century saw the army come through, IN SUPPORT of the mine owners, when workers tried to organize themselves, see the Harlan County War... and of course during prohibition and later we had Government Revenuers trying to get taxes for the feds... for whiskey, or stop the production of this during prohibition, and these days there is a virtual occupation by the ATF and FBI and other alphabet soups due to the war on drugs. More than a few counties it is either the store... you will starve, drugs, you might make somewhat of a living, or the mines... unions not wanted.

Of course in the middle there was FDR (who was popular) and the war on poverty.

Now for all of you going I bet they vote Republican... do me a favor... look up the names of a representative. Any will do. Look into the past. If you chose the right one, (most of them will be like this) you will realize that this is a family job. They are those social betters... a few times you have a family that has fallen on hard times, see the Clintons, who's name and ownership status goes all the way back to the 17th century, in land ownership. The Gores, again they go back to the aristocracy of the area. I could go on. So being a "republican" or a "democrat" is who or what you can get more for your people.

This "I bet they vote for republicans, " the implication is ignorant hillbillies, is as insulting by the way as they still hold to bibles and guns, as said by a city boy, to city kids back during the campaign. Of course people still hold to those two items... they have not failed them yet. DC on the other hand... let me count the ways.

No I was not born there... but if we are ever gonna make any inroads politically, first understand what is going on, well on the ground. Second, your middle class, big city life assumptions stop being part of reality once you enter this part of the country. After all, in many areas the sheriff has been the sheriff for ever, it goes from father to son... one of the good jobs. Oh and he is THE sheriff, perhaps two deputies, maybe. The judges, at times have the same thing... where kids know they will go to law school, lawyer up, and take over from dad... and there are social lines you do not easily cross.

Oh and this is an area of the country where a lot of things are NOT taken care off within the confines of a court ok.

There are reasons why Massey Energy, for example, will never face the music for the Big Branch Mine. Yep, the Feds care, maybe...but Massey is extremely well connected in the web of local and regional power relationships.

So "republicans" and in many ways "democrats" come from the same place socially. So when you say, but I bet they still vote for Republicans... you really are missing a lot of the social subtext... and don't give me any about well if they were better educated either. Yes, that could help break the chain, but what would help even more is bringing in the kind of services that need to come into the area, and for the war on drugs to be replaced by an army of treatment centers. After all the area is so damn depressed, and has been for a few lifetimes, that I will repeat this... the only good jobs to be had are in the mines.

So yes, I get it that people "cling" to bibles (gives people some relief, to read of this), and guns (puts food on table)

I hope this helps to explain some of this... Oh and yes, in case you wonder, it is to the interest of their social betters to keep this going... and it has little to do with what letter is behind their name.

[Vinnie From Indy]

1. "they have not failed them yet."

Well, except for that whole Civil War thingy I guess you are correct about guns and bibles.

You do bring up some interesting and valid points about the culture of Appalachia. I would also offer that many do vote GOP solely because of the lies and propaganda raining down on them from right-wing hate radio and FOX News.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. The whole civil war thing

people fought on both sides, actually, but mostly TRIED very hard to remain neutral.And they vote GOP since their social betters tell them to... they are GOP today, they will be Dem tomorrow. Go find them... they change party affiliation when needed.

And yes, guns still put food on table.

[TNDemo]

The folks in Appalachia were unionists.

So they prevailed in the Civil War thingy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. More on that secret war you refer to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlan_County_War

The Harlan County War was the largest insurrection since the civil war. I will add... the FEDS took the side of the mine owners... not the side of the people.

[Vinnie From Indy]

17. Well, to be more precise the folks of Appalachia fought on both sides

of the Civil War.

[TNDemo]

29. But the majority of East TN was definitely union.

TN has originally voted to stay in the union, then ultimately went with the south. East TN tried to then secede from TN because they did not want to be aligned with the south. I know it was a brother against brother kind of war in the border states so yes, they went with both sides, but I think most of Appalachia was Union.

[KamaAina]

30. The same could be said of Maryland, for one

In one battle, the First Maryland Regiment, U.S.A. actually fought against the First Maryland Regiment, C.S.A.

[Rebubula]

15. LOLZ

"I would also offer that many do vote GOP solely because of the lies and propaganda raining down on them from right-wing hate radio and FOX News. "


I would LOVE to see some proof of that.

I see so many threads dedicated to the evils of Fox etc - however, I strongly feel (yes, just feel) that people give them far too much credit for the current RW attitude.

As long as we continue to point to Fox Etc as the enemy - we ignore one of the real enemies - RELIGION. Talk about a rain of lies and propaganda. More people go to church than listen to Fox Etc.


But keep on aiming at easy targets - and keep missing - like the outroar over RW radio and the Arizona shootings (Loughner never listened to any of them, but dozens of threads were started in order to blame them for the shooting)

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. Religion certainly plays a part that is for sure!

I disagree with your contention that right-wing radio is ineffectual however.

Cheers!

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Right wing radio has an effect

TV not so much... but the churches actually play far more of a role in some areas than even Savage could ever do. He is an outisider after all.

Hannity and Rush probably do better... Glen... if people know he is a mormon... not really.

Incidentally that is why Mittens will never win this area of the country...

[vim876]

58. If religion makes people vote for Republicans...

...why are there religious liberals?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

109. non sequitur.

You are confusing liberal xtians and conservative xtians.

[PVnRT]

72. West Virginia and Kentucky were Union

Eastern Tennessee actually attempted to secede from the Confederacy as well, and they never truly pacified the area.

[antigone382]

92. Appalachia went for the Union during the Civil War. n/t

[bobbolink]

2. Excellent! Thank you for doing this research, and writing for understanding.

:applause:
Historically, this is what Democrats and liberals do... they work for understanding.

I can only hope that the majority of DUers will avail themselves of this knowledge!

I have been thinking about adding to this with the information about Rio Arriba County in New Mexico. It is one of the poorest counties in the nation, strongly Democratic, and not very well known.

Let me know if it is OK with you if I add Rio Arriba to this great information, and thanks again.

[RegieRocker]

4. Does it matter? What would voting for a democrat do for them really?

Isn't the Pres a democrat?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Exactly, and let's assume these democrats

in DC decided to do what would actually help... have programs to diversity the economy... let me count the ways it will be fought.

It was tobacco, now it is coal.

[pecwae]

6. You need to ask the number

of posters who think it does matter. But, no, it shouldn't make a thimble full of difference to a progressive who cares about people.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FedUpWithIt All]

55. I agree

I have lived in either Ohio, southeastern PA and now north central WV. Countless generations of my mother's family are from the Ohio River valley area on both sides of the OH/WV border.

And the OP's threads border on offensive in their generalizations.

I happen to live in a "God fearing" Democratic country within sight of a coal mine.



:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Tell me exactly how it is offensive to offer a GENERAL history

and background for this and telling people to STOP assuming that people vote republican since they are just ignorant hillbillies. To me THAT is offensive.

If this bothers you so much use the hide thread button, or the ignore button, or just go ahead and alert. Funny thing you find it offensive, but many other residents from THE ACTUAL area do not.

[FedUpWithIt All]

75. I am from the actual area.

And you would do well, in at least some of the posts where you try to act an authority, to provide some supporting documentation.

You want to pass off your version of Appalachian history? Provide some links to support it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. I did bellow... have a good life

[unblock]

9. i'm not really getting your point. ok, they don't vote "r" simply because of an "r" after the name

they vote for their "social betters".

fine, but as you point out, democrats are often "social betters" as well. so what's the differentiator? you've explained perhaps why "social betters" end up getting bother the democratic and the republican nominations, but you've not explained what leads to republicans winning over democrats.

is it that republicans are better at fielding "social betters", or that more of the "social betters" tend to be republican?

if so, i'm not sure your explanation is actually saying much. the appeal of aristocracy is part and parcel of the republican brand. thinking that "social betters" should be the ones in power is not really much different than saying that republicans should be in power because they're richer and better connected with powerful business interests. which, in turn, is not much different than saying that they vote republican because they buy into the republican philosophy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Ok if representative X happens to be an R or a D don't matter

he is a social better. The people will vote for that person.

The party core for BOTH parties are in the upper classes, where Ds have lost a lot of influence because of social policy and that dirty pro people thing. But the people, a few are yellow dawg democrats... a few are staunch repubs, but most often than not they will vote for the family name.

Oh and I forgot, the Ds are still suffering the consequences of the Civil Rights Act. Read that act in this social context.

[Gaedel]

27. They will vote for their social betters

The Scots-Irish will vote for their social betters. They will follow their social betters willingly into battle (as they did for the south in the Civil War).

They will only do this when they trust their social betters and feel that the social betters "respect" them. Look at the adoration the poor whites in the Confederate Army bestowed on Bobby Lee, yet the same kind of soldiers didn't respect Braxton Bragg.

My own background is a descendant of northern European immigrants to the midwest (early 20th century), but I have worked with and lived with southern hill people enough (mostly in the army) to understand what drives them. If they trust you and you show them respect, they are the best.

The pages of DU don't show much respect for them and the question always is "why do these poor people vote republican?"

[Little Star]

10. Great post Nadin! k&r

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Thanks, doing all that history

helps

[patrice]

13. Economic class almost always outranks anything else. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Yep, which we in big cities, on the coasts

tend to ignore,

[patrice]

23. There are such huge cultural differences in our country. My son

recently down-sized his life, moved downtown, took a smaller apartment, got rid of his car and is now walking, and taking the VERY LIMITED bus service everywhere, and borrowing my car when he wants to go to Lawrence or Topeka. He tells me of the difference now in people's social reactions to him, when he says he doesn't own a car. Although he has a pretty good job and isn't outspoken about left-wing politics and the issues, the car thing is a HUGE deal here in the Midwest and it has affected everything about any chance for good mass transit.

My daughter has lived in Portland for a long time and I have visited frequently, sometimes for extended periods. EVERYTHING is soooooooooo different there. You see many many more SMALL independent businesses; living without a car isn't unusual at all; the city itself is lively way into the wee-hours (compared to here in KC where there's not much besides drunks and dives after 1a); people are bartering; there's quite a bit more co-operative living and job-sharing going on, so people can pursue a variety of courses for their own personal development. Though it is the Midwest, what I have experienced of Chicago seems a like this too. My son and I keep trying to figure out why KC isn't more like these other places and the only thing I can come up with is the size and affluence of KC's bedroom communities, plus the fact that churches do REALLY wield quite a bit of power around here through the Chamber of Commerce.

I am known for going around and upsetting a few apple-carts by trying to get people to see how much more power there is in organizing around the issues FIRST and foremost, organizing around concrete data that illustrates the effects of issues on our lives not only informs us about ourselves, as distinct from political parties, but also nurtures our own entrepreneurial responses to who and what we are. Candidates who arise out of an issue-based active electorate will always have to relate to that base, if we hold their feet to the fire. We need to start WITH OURSELVES and our own lives in order to discover who/what/when/where/why/how -ever is NEXT. This isn't my idea, though I felt a deep affinity with it the moment I encountered it from Paulo Freire http://books.google.com/books?id=xfFXFD414ioC&printsec=frontcover&dq=paulo+freire+pedagogy+of+the+oppressed&source=bl&ots=sWUeacl009&sig=wwZvaMKvrp6XLCiqeTzr_9fRlbw&hl=en&ei=YbNJTfTXOc72gAfin-0G&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thank you for your enlightening post; you made me remember one of the earliest and strongest environmentalists whom I, and about a dozen others, worked with in and around Tulsa. Her dad was just such a (well known) judge as you describe, out of Arkansas; she was a financial adviser/broker. My friend still had some of the distinct markings of class, so she COULD get on your last nerve, but she was also a real beat-the-gates-down bitch, in your face, no holds barred environmental activist and our group stuck together for about 8 years and actually did stuff out in the community (like hanging a huge HUGE skull-and-cross-bones banner from a bridge over the massively polluted Arkansas River during a river festival that included rafting & getting a zoning ruling that stopped Blue Circle Cement from running trucks full of hazardous waste into the local concrete plant for production fuel). She was the first "Republican" I ever met who made me scratch my head and wonder about what I "knew" about Republicans.

Thanks very much for your post, Nadine. It is very enlightening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. You welcome and I saw it in Cleveland

I had to spend a month there when dad needed care at the Clinic. It was not a week visit. I was in a foreign country.

This is why I have said in the past that the country is going to split.

[patrice]

25. Re: split > From being around lots of young people, I can tell you, there are an awful lot of them

who have absolutely no patience with social/cultural/political processes, so they are just shutting stuff out, while they get on with surviving.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I know.

My nieces are like that, and a few other young guys I know as well

[kctim]

26. It isn't the 'bedroom communities' or churches

We want to be left alone to live our own lives, not have someone else dictate how we live our lives.

[patrice]

37. Okay, so why does however you want to live your life trump how someone else might want to live their

lives?

I would gladly pay for mass transit, but someone (you?) are preventing me from having that opportunity. Those doing so would say that they are the majority, but all of us know that the answers to questions about anything, including mass transit, not only depend upon the circumstances in which the question is asked (e.g. when nearly 50% of federal revenues are going into war profiteering "national" "defense" instead of on things that Americans need) and upon how the questions are asked, but also upon the basic level of authentic freedom amongst those answering the question, read that whether people have been brainwashed and conditioned by the culture in which they live into passive resistance to change. To what extent is it possible that what you think you want, "to be left alone", is possibly the effect of influences that, were they to say otherwise, you'd think something entirely different?

[kctim]

59. It trumps

because my way takes NOTHING from others without their consent and your way does. I am not preventing you from anything, if you want to live your life with mass transit, pay for it.

Freedom of choice is 'authentic freedom' and trying to use govt to circumvent that freedom because you believe people with opposing views have been brainwashed or conditioned, is exactly why there is such a divide.
We are not 'brainwashed' or less Democratic because we do not fear guns or don't want to ride around in little trains like those on the 'coasts.'

To what extent? None. Facts, not people or places, are what influence my decisions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Maybe we should all stop funding the interstate system as well

by your same logic. Or your local roads...

I know of places that do that...

[patrice]

84. Unless you're REALLY unusual, your way does not take nothing from others without their consent.

If you aren't off the grid and actually producing everything you need all by yourself, your way DEPENDS entirely on others providing you with that which you do not pay for directly yourself, everything from the less than just wages paid for all kinds of service jobs and labor, which either serve you directly or serve those who do serve you directly, to the entire process that make everything you use available. You're assuming that every last bit of that is compensated at the rate that you would demand for the same goods and services yourself were you the one providing them.

Whatever money you make (whatever the hell money is!!) you are very likely completely incapable of making that money without one whole hell of a lot of stuff that you take, at less than real value, from others.

Re influence on what you think: There are all kinds of facts relevant to a given set of circumstances, how many do you take into your decisions? All of the relevant ones? many? most? a few? some? . . . or just the ones that serve your case one way or another? And what do you call that which DETERMINES the assumptions and values upon which your selective attention makes "decisions"? Different assumptions, different FACTS, different "decisions". Though you may be kind of unusual and more aware than many, if you think you are completely independent of the processes that shape your "decisions", you are, quite possibly, either dishonest or deluded. And if one can't admit the possibility of some degree of dishonesty and delusion, s/he isn't as free as s/he thinks s/he is.

[kctim]

99. Lets try this

I am NOT an individualist and I am not saying everybody should be on their own. Our Constitution and human nature itself does not promote that.
When I mentioned 'leave us alone,' I was speaking more towards the point of NB's OP in that we just want to live our lives how WE choose, and not how people on the 'coasts' desire to choose for us. Around here, Dems and Reps alike believe that doing EVERYTHING you can in order to NOT be a burden on government and that government does not dictate how people live. These differing beliefs and values does not justify labeling us as dumb rednecks or brainwashed drones.
That has nothing to do with paying for roads so we can get our mail or for new PCs for our schools.

I take ALL facts into consideration as I receive them. That is why I do not blindly rely on spin from the Maddows, Olbermans, Hannitys or Limbaughs to come to a decision.
Because facts are what determines my decisions, I am more than willing to acknowledge when I am wrong and change my mind, even when it goes against what I personally want.

NOBODY is 'completely independent of the processes that shapes our decisions,' but we also are not completely dependent on them either.

[patrice]

39. In short, do you REALLY think the life that you are living ISN'T DICTATED to you to a significant

extent?

wow.

[kctim]

61. Of course not

I elect to live in a community so of course government is going to have some say in how I live.
But that is the ONLY entity with the power to do so.

[patrice]

85. So your mind was what it is from the first and nothing influenced you. You could never have been

anything other than what you are, so no influencing was ever possible.

Why do you think such utter predetermination is freedom?

[kctim]

100. No

The way my parents, grandparents etc... are what has influenced who I am. That is why I live my life the way I do. I do not have the latest and greatest electronics or cars. I do not need to eat out of my home 2 or 3 times a week. I do not have to have a $7 cup of coffee.
Because of this, I have what I need and I can get what I need when I need it. Because of this, there are no "strings" on my life and I am free to do as I please.

THAT is freedom.

[patrice]

40. Are you a war supporter? How is your principle "to be left alone" even remotely rational if you

supported the invasion and occupation of a SOVEREIGN nation that was no threat to the U.S.?

And even if you didn't, never did, support these insane wars that we have ALWAYS been involved in, surely you recognize that amongst those, who like you want "to be left alone", somehow being left alone doesn't include leaving others alone and NOT engaging in "American Exceptionalism", i.e. Un-ending War.

Please respond.

I'd like like fucking hell to leave you and those like you alone, if you'd just leave the rest of us alone (i.e. use no shared resources that result from us NOT leaving you alone), but somehow people who just want "to be left alone" seem to have all of these demands on the rest of us.

I may be mistaken about you, but, perhaps, you can recognize that what I am saying hear is certainly not impossible in its political relevance.

[kctim]

67. No, I did not support going into Iraq

and of course I recognize that civilians sucked into war wish they would be left alone.

I have no idea if you are mistaken about me or not because you have allowed your emotions to take over.
When I said leave us alone, it is as most Democrats in these areas believe: we do not want or need people who are not from here telling us how to live. That is why legislation based on the fears of the city does not pass here and why using the federal government to force it on us can make us not vote for the Democrat.

[patrice]

86. Aside from the other issues in this post: Is there something wrong with emotion? If I do not allow

too many facts, say like effects on others, to be eliminated from the factors that influence my decisions, and you do, which one of us is allowing something "to take over"?

[kctim]

103. It is impossible to govern by emotion

and still respect individual rights of all.

I was speaking more of the frustration you were starting to show.

[patrice]

90. Why do you assume in this post that you speak for everyone? Does "we" include anyone who disagrees

with you? And if you say that is your problem with me, "Liberals exclude those whom they disagree with", why should I respect your objection to that if you're doing it too?

[kctim]

104. Not my intention at all

I can only speak for myself and what I have been told from others in my area. I find actually speaking with others and learning why they hold differing opinions to be much more effective than simply calling them brainwashed or dumb rednecks in order of dismissing them.

I have a problem when others use government to force others to live a certain way or to support a certain idea. They do this because they falsely believe that it is THEY who knows what is best for ME, and that could not be further from the truth.
Take mass transit here in KC. I respect that some want it, but they do not respect that I do not want it, have a need for it or wish to support it in any way. IF they did, they would not consider me to have been brainwashed or conditioned to be against it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. How exactly would a public transit system that is functional

affect your ability to live your life?

I have yet to have that answered... in a rational way. After all a FUNCTIONAL system means that yes, people can get to jobs and back without a huge carbon footprint. Oh and in most of the world where there is a functional system, that does not mean people intrude into private property, but I am sure you knew that.

[kctim]

71. Easy and very rational

The high taxes required to make it work in this area would lower my standard of living which would impact how I wish to chose to live my life.
Oh, and the money I earn is indeed my "private property," but I am sure you knew that.

I also would NEVER use it myself. Patrice was very correct when she said mass transit was not in our blood, but, like it or not, that is the way it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Well given that the world is changing

and we are running out of fossil fuels... you MIGHT have to do that, or go back to horses. Either way, that is a lowering in standards of living... or at least what we believe to be acceptable standards. Oh and one more thing... the price of civilized society are taxes... granted ours are not used to serve the public, but we can hope the fall of Empire will allow those taxes to be used in silly shit like buses and not rifles.

Just pointing out a reality. Just because things have always been one way, don't mean they remain the same.

[kctim]

106. And I absoluting accept that the world is changing

but do people not have the right to be against what they wish to be against?

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. You have that right but it will reach you

that is all I am seeing, and it has nothing to do with political party.

[patrice]

91. "Our blood"???? OUR blood? You assume to speak for OUR blood???

I did not say it is "our blood". I said it is circumstances and political influence.

[white_wolf]

98. Oh no

The "evil big government" is going to tax you. I have to ask wouldn't you be happier at free republic where they agree with your anti tax ideas? I don't know if your a republican in disguise or just a conservative dem, but most liberals believe in using taxes to provide for the the good of society as a whole. Oh and to get really technical the money you earn isn't yours at all. It even says Federal Reserve Note on it. So therefore it is the government's property not yours. The only thing you own in that regard is your labor.

[kctim]

107. Sigh

YOU, not me, said 'evil big government.' And I did not say I did not believe in taxes. YOU jumped to that conclusion.

As with the majority of Democrats, I am a moderate Democrat and I know that "most liberals believe in using taxes to provide for the good of society as a whole." The point is moot though, because you intentionally leave out that you also believe the liberal way is the ONLY way that is good for society as a whole.
That is why you guys have such a tough time understanding or even accepting that people simply do not agree with you on everything.

[patrice]

46. I've lived around here long enough to know that "being left alone" means being left alone to TELL

OTHERS HOW TO LIVE - OR ELSE!

[kctim]

73. Unless you can give examples

then maybe you have not live away from the city in that time.

[patrice]

88. Perhaps you have been paying attention to what our governor is trying to do

to repeal Roe v. Wade and the Affordable Care Act. Maybe you have heard of a powerful preacher here in K.C., Lou Engle, who proposes Civil War II against abortion and incidentally against LGBT Civil Right to marry.

I have had discussions with state legislators which included many positive references to the war on Iraq and actual hostility at the merest suggestion of criticism of same.

And, yes, I do have personal concrete information, officially documented by the state department of labor, about how churches can and did intrude into the workplace here and I'm pretty sure that mine is not the only incident.

[kctim]

108. That is no different than saying all Democrats are socialists

If you have been around here long enough, then you know the likes of Engle does not represent all the people around here.

I agree with you mentioning Roe V Wade, but that is hardly limited to just the people around here. Neither is the right to marry.

Around here, the only people trying to tell you how to live right now are those trying to legislate what you purchase, where you can smoke and what kind of business you can have.

[Tsiyu]

110. So you're fine with Mountaintop removal

and other "lifestyle damaging" practices by industry? If they pollute the water and the soil and people's land and water are contaminated, you think that's just their sacrifice so that people are free to "earn money without the governement telling us what to do?"

Just asking. Sounds like you are against any government regulation at all.

I hate to inform you, but freedom from regulation has caused most of the problems in this nation.

Letting some BigAss Mining Co. run over the little guys in your town just because you love the smell of money isn't really "leaving people alone" is it?

[fascisthunter]

116. BAM!

well said

[leftstreet]

14. How many eligible voters vote?

Is the number significantly different than that in the north, midwest, pacific nw, etc?

How much money and effort are Democrats spending, relative to Republicans, in recruiting voters?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. voting is as low as everywhere else

but you are making assumptions that do operate in the large cities, but do not in here.

People vote for the devil they know... not a letter after a name, except yellow dawgs that is, or very staunch republicans. In this case the tradition goes back a few generations.

Reality is that The Democratic party, at a national level, gave up in this area a while ago, but the recruitment is NOT done at the level of the streets. It is done higher up in the social system. Oh and everybody higher up has a stake in keeping this going. Why if DC decides, out of who knows what, to imperilment something like the War on Poverty, it will be fought, by the locals... REGARDLESS of party.

The best DC could do is DIVERSIFY the economy... where good paying jobs are beyond tobacco, err I mean Coal... and you can bet your sweet potatoes that this will be fought the same way Unions have for decades now. Of course to begin with, they need to bring in treatment centers for the rampant drug addiction.

Look, the war on drugs like you saw in Mexico 20 years ago is exactly what we have in the back country here.

I get it... the patronage relationships are NOT that different than they are in Mexico... as well as the social order. It is still in some ways close to that which existed oh back in the early 19th century... if not earlier. It is really who you know in some ways,

[leftstreet]

20. I made no assumptions

Only asked questions

But thanks for answering an important one:

"The Democratic party, at a national level, gave up in this area a while ago..."

It might make more sense then to 'study' the habits of this strange political tribe instead of these people

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. the democratic party gave up

about 25 years ago. It goes back to the Civil Rights Act... adn the Dixiecrats. It is seen as a waste of money to fund a candidate, and truth be told, any democracy right now who dares to run... is outside the patronage system.

[leftstreet]

52. Then why not talk about the failures of the politicians, rather than the people n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. We need to start really basic here

In some countries the term is used to describe political patronage, which is the use of state resources to reward individuals for their electoral support. Some patronage systems are legal, as in the Canadian tradition of allowing the Prime Minister to appoint the heads of a number of commissions and agencies; in many cases, these appointments go to people who have supported the political party of the Prime Minister. As well, the term may refer to a type of corruption or favoritism in which a party in power rewards groups, families, ethnicities for their electoral support using illegal gifts or fraudulently-awarded appointments or government contracts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage

It exists all across Rural parts of the US... in some places it is far more distinct and easy to see than others. So let's start here. And how you take this appart, without really upsetting the apple cart.

[leftstreet]

93. So 'political patronage' in Appalachia is different than the same on Wall St

You have no idea what you're talking about

This thread is embarrassing to DU

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. There are similarities and there are differences

Just like there are similarities to OTHER patronage systems around the world, and stark differences. If you cannot see it, how exactly is this an embarrassment? Oh and yes I could use classic marxist theory, but it ain't gonna work in this setting.

[leftstreet]

127. That is not why this thread is an embarrassment to DU

Are you aware of the bigotry in your posts on this thread?

You're describing "them" and "those people" as if you are Columbus himself returned to the royal court to explain the strange customs of the savages from new lands.

How you cannot see this is beyond me

:shrug:

[JoePhilly]

28. Obama's statement about folks clinging to their bibles and guns ...

in my view, was a recognition of much of your post.

By their very nature, many rural parts of America are "isolated". Areas in and around cities are often far more fluid, with changes taking place all the time. Lack of paved roads, other infrastructure ... local controls become primary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Alas it was not taken that way

perhaps since it was a city slicker, talking to other city slickers.

[JoePhilly]

45. Might be ...

I think he was trying to explain to those "city folks" what you are touching on ...

His problem was that because many in those rural areas will always see him as an "outsider" or "not one of them" ... and so his making an accurate statement about how folks in rural America tend to close in around religion and guns (and alcohol) made them angry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Of course, there is that

I know that although I understand all this theory... I'd be seen as a carpet bagger for the rest of my life. This is actually one of the problems that Northern Union Organizers run into regularly.

[JoePhilly]

68. I grew up in PA ...

Where some would say you have Philly to the east, Pittsburgh to the West, and Alabama in between.

And that's not so far off.

Parts of rural PA scared me ... and I grew up riding the Philly subway to and from high school where inadvertent eye contact could get one in a fight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Things get interesting from region to region

and even inside regions, don't they?

[swilton]

31. "Matewan"

I challenge DUers to see this movie - made on a very low budget because of its anti-corporatist overtones...About the coal-mining wars in West Virginia in the 1920's...

[Dawson Leery]

32. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Yep, a must see

[patrice]

47. +1 = a real eye-opener. Also, did you know . . .

You can get an un-abridged copy of Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States in iTunes digital books ($65. IS a little high - REALLY - but I like being able to listen over and over again).

[Ilsa]

126. Great movie, should be shown in high schools. nt

[jtown1123]

36. What do you mean by social betters? They think these people know what's best? b/c they are from

wealthy families? I want to understand your post but I am struggling mightily.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Yes... money and social station means

exactly that. It is not something that people living in cities, especially in the north or coasts undertand.

[leftstreet]

43. Are you serious? So Manhattan is an egalitarian commune? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. No, that is where them silly liberals live

it is a foreign country.

Even if not formally, You get windows into this from time to time. The 9.11 responder bill was a good example... it was not for real americans.

[jtown1123]

102. So if they think NE liberals are foreigners, why wouldn't they think the same

of social betters? If these people live in wealth that is something they envy and value, wouldn't they also not be able to relate to them?

[Tsiyu]

119. The difference is, they don't believe any New York Liberal

is ever gonna butter their bread.

The elites who root out and circulate most of the private money in Mountain communities DO butter the poor man's bread.

He WILL show allegiance even to the worst of the worst of the wealthy when his light bill and his truck payment demand it. Most don't, but enough do.

And as for attorneys, just to reiterate nadinb's point about the "royal line of The Bar," most all I know in this area and surrounding towns are sons and daughters of other lawyers and judges.

One of my children is in law school; another applying. The former makes it by racking up huge student loans. We are not on a level playing field and this is why the poor don't have enough Americans to fight for them anywhere in this nation.

[Taverner]

42. It's very much based on the Scot-Irish Clan system

Hence, the 'Ku Klux Klan' and why the Confederate Battle flag (sic) was designed on St Andrew's Cross

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Yep, and the clans still have some grudes that they

don't even know why...

[Taverner]

50. Hatfields and the McCoy's come to mind...

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. That is the cartoon but to a point yes

[Odin2005]

44. K&R

[FedUpWithIt All]

56. If anyone here really wants to learn about the region, there are a great number of resources...

There is the documentary "APPALACHIA: A History of Mountains and People"

Years in the making by filmmakers, Jamie Ross and Ross Spears, APPALACHIA: A History of Mountains and People transcends the usual media portraits of poverty, pity, depravity and the picturesque in America’s most misunderstood and maligned region, and delivers a breathtaking view of Appalachia’s extraordinary role in shaping our country.This PBS series is a landmark event for television, and it couldn’t be more timely. A breakthrough journey!

Diana Nelson Jones, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:
APPALACHIA could be the beginning of a cure for society’s malignant attitude about the region. An engrossing and beautifully filmed and illustrated series APPALACHIA is both a paean to and an investigation of the world’s oldest mountains. It gives first billing to the mountains themselves—the “soul and spine” of a people as diverse as any, but bound by a heart tug for “home” that’s all about being an underdog who knows a superior beauty.

http://www.appalachiafilm.org/

From NPR

The birthplace of entertainers (Lucille Ball), musicians (Patsy Cline) authors (Cormac McCarthy) and scholars (Henry Louis Gates Jr.), Appalachia offers a rich slice of American history. But it is often steeped in mythic lore and stereotyped as backward, uncultured and poor.

Two new books seek to change these perceptions. The United States of Appalachia, by Jeff Biggers, and The Encyclopedia of Appalachia, co-edited by Rudy Abramson and Jean Haskell, both try to get past the negative associations and bring the historical and cultural achievements of the region to the foreground.

Biggers and Abramson join Howard Berkes for a discussion of an underappreciated region.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5386355

There is a lot to be learned from the music...

Appalachia was settled primarily by people from the borderlands of England and Scotland, specifically from the English counties of Cumberland, Westmoreland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancashire and the Scottish counties of Ayrshire, Dumfries shire, Roxburghshire, Berwick shire, and Wigtownshire. This migration occurred during the 1700s. So, as one can well imagine, English and Scottish folk music traditions were brought to America from these countries and became enmeshed with American folk music styles. (1) A few examples of the influence of the English ballad on Appalachian music are the songs "Barbara Allen," House Carpenter" and "Cuckoo Bird." (2) And the Scottish tune "Bonnie George Campbell" may have influenced the Appalachian dance tune "Cumberland Gap." (2)

In the final years of World War I, folklorists Cecil Sharp and Maude Karpeles travelled throughout Southern Appalachia collecting over 200 ballads that they collected in the region. Sharp and Karpeles discovered that
the Appalachian region was a haven of ballads as from as long ago as medieval times. They found such songs as "The Demon Lover" (also known as "House Carpenter", and "The Elfin Knight." Both of these ballads are from medieval times.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2678495/american_folk_music_the_origins_of.html?cat=33

A discussion of the region is incomplete without a nod to the Ramp. Although every Appalachian state has it's own Ramps festival, one of the largest and oldest is the Ramson Feast in Richville.

http://www.wchstv.com/traveling/2007/twv070419.shtml

I am partial to the Ramp dinner in Nestorville myself.

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/31/travel/ramp-feasting-in-west-virginia.html


One has to ask...how does an area retain such a rich and vibrant history? One only has to look at the reasons the wild land was settled in the first place.

From "Ulster Scots in the Appalachians"

By Matthew Crow

The Scots Irish were strong supporters of William of Orange. King William, a Protestant, had deposed the Catholic King James in 1688. The two sides met on the banks of the River Boyne in Ireland in 1690. King James’ green recruits were soundly defeated in the battle, which was the turning point in his ultimately unsuccessful attempt to regain the throne. The Battle of the Boyne became symbolic in the sectarian struggle between Protestants and Catholics and remains one of the most famous battles in Irish and English history. Because the Ulster Scots supported William of Orange, they were known as “Billy boys,” something which – depending on the source – could be the origin of the term “hillbillies,” in reference to the continued Presbyterianism of the Ulster-Scot immigrants to the Appalachian region.

Around 90 percent of the earliest settlers to the Appalachians were either from the Anglo-Scottish border region of northern England and Lowland Scotland or Lowland Scots who had first immigrated to Ulster.

The Ulster Scots first began arriving in the United States in large numbers at the beginning of the 18th century, with waves of immigration continuing through the American Revolution. This mass immigration was the result of many factors, the most pronounced of which were two-fold: inclement weather and religious persecution in Ireland.

The Ulster Scots did not view themselves in the same light as subsequent immigrations of Irish following the famine. “They developed a different culture and different mindset,” said McReynolds. “Individualism was sort of key to their sensibility.”

They were known for their clan mentality and distrust of authority, something they brought with them when they migrated down the Shenandoah Valley. More than simply moonshining and fiddle playing, the social fabric of the Ulster Scots became interwoven with the Appalachian identity.

While it is cliché to note that they were known for their fighting skill, it would be a disservice to the Ulster Scots to attempt to discount this as a historical epithet. They obtained that reputation for a reason, which was earned by being adept fighters, something they demonstrated time and again in American wars.

In a testament to the extent of early Ulster-Scot influence on American history and the tenacious spirit of the American Scots Irish, one Hessian soldier wrote in his diary during the Revolutionary War, "Call this war by whatever name you may, only call it not an American rebellion; it is nothing more or less than a Scotch Irish Presbyterian rebellion."

“ . . . well my view is I’m a hillbilly, and I’m proud of it. But my idea of a hillbilly is not the world’s perception of a hillbilly. To me, my perception of a hillbilly is somebody who loves the mountains, who loves their family, who loves their home, who loves this way of life.”
Anonymous

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Plug to one of my favorite albums

Kathy Meatea's Coal

http://www.mattea.com/

[FedUpWithIt All]

60. Did you even read my post before you replied?

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Yes, why I put the plug

I just love her album. recommended by a DU'er

[FedUpWithIt All]

70. Then you would see...

where your claims,

"The region was first settled by Scott Irish who were descendants of Indentured Servants or servants themselves. This established a very strong relationship between the people and their social betters."

are unsupported.

You'll also see that the ties of culture to deep history are very strong and the "independant culture" did not develop in the 19th century.

"During the 19th century this area was quite isolated from the rest of the country, it is the geography stupid, and people developed their own very independent culture (from the rest of the country that is) and religious forms also rose that befuddle city folk, from outside the area, I suspect from inside the area too."

Question...You have spent substantial time with the people you're referring to? I'd even be happy with supporting evidence for this claim.

"Also social relations hardened between those at the bottom and those at the top. It is very much a master-servant relation like it existed in the home country in the 17th century. "

I'm not even going to go through the rest of your OP because i have things to do, but your prejudice about the region certainly oozes, in spite of your claims that you're only trying to make political inroads...shame.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Ok here is from some srouces...

Abbot Emerson Smith. "Indentured Servants: New Light on some of America's "First" Families." The Journal of Economic History. Vol 2, No 1 (may 1942) pp 40-53

David W Galeson. "White Servitude and the Growth of Black Slavry in Colonial America." The Journal of Academic History. Vil 41, no 1 (March 1981) pp 39-47

White cargo

http://www.amazon.com/White-Cargo-Forgotten-History-Britains/dp/0814742963

and for a quick intro

http://www.appalachianhistory.net/2010/05/how-do-we-know-its-us-without-our-past.html

Have a good day. I am just scratching the damn fucking surface, and just doing, so far in research, the 16th century... but these folks are originally borderers...

[FedUpWithIt All]

81. Quite a definitive and authority toned OP for someone just "scratching the damn fucking surface"

Your history of Appalachia link is accurate of the community here (although i am hard pressed to see how it supports any of your original claims about the region) and is, i would point out, exactly why your postings on the subject can be very offensive. People here do not often view themselves as "poor" or lesser than. They may live in poverty but they are not poor. They also do not generally appreciate people who do not know them or their way of life, speaking as an authority on the matter. Read your own link.

Your book link speaks to indentured servitude but not to Appalachia.

You are forming links on your own and your recent attempt to find documented support has failed so perhaps your OP is too highly toned for someone espousing mere opinion and personal theory.

I wish you a nice life as well.

[Tsiyu]

113. There are many people who settled Appalachia

and many stories. Here, there was a transfusion of Swiss to join a population that included many of the old Chikamauka.

But to get an overview of the region and to discuss the issues surrounding it, the OP condensed what she has studied about it, but not for each specific locale.

I have lived in and around Appalachia for 30 years, which doesn't make me a scholar, but I can see that much of her history and analysis is valid.

This post is part of a long-overdue conversation about poverty and politics to which several of us are adding posts. I did not add mine to have some pity party or to provoke false or overblown outrage.

Self-pity serves no one. It derails discussions.

Have I been highly offended - and offensive - on DU? Many times. But this OP, in my opinion, does not rise to the level of offensive.

This is merely an example of one poster's trying to explain voting trends in Appalachia.

[FedUpWithIt All]

128. I asked the OP to support documenting evidence for her claims.

She has not.

They is documentary evidence to actually counter some of the claims, which she made about the history of the region, linked above.

Have a nice day.

[vim876]

63. Here's an idea.

If it's a foreign country, Appalachia can stop paying taxes and stop being represented in government. I'd be ok with that, and from what the description of the caste system there sounds like, so would they. Problem solved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Actually the poor are not geting represented

that is the point.

By the way, in less obvious ways, this is happening all over the country.

Granted, the empire is collapsing, so the collapse might very well see a break up of the country into five to seven successor states, but that is a whole different discussion.

[vim876]

76. I'm pretty sure you said that...

...they were voting for their "social betters." If that's their cultural norm, and they're voting, and their representatives' votes are getting counted, they have representation. Just because they don't vote according to my cultural norms doesn't mean they lack representation. You want unrepresented? Go to DC. And I'm not sure the country's breakup would be such a bad thing. WE don't even agree on what the problems are, much less the solutions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. I see... I just told you what the reality is

you obviously don't want discussion. Have a good day.

[vim876]

80. No.

I simply don't understand how you can explain it as a cultural issue and then argue that its our responsibility to change it. If they want change, they have the ballot box. Clearly I'm not communicating very well. Sorry about that. However, if you don't want to discuss it, then you have a good day too.

[Tsiyu]

120. It's not as simple as you are viewing it

People here have voted for many Democrats though they are trending Republican. I've voted down here since 1978. Politics is not as important as personality and certain cultural attitudes. At a 2004 fundraiser for our now-vanquished Dem Representative, he gave away a gun as a door prize.

He is very anti-choice.

But in the long run, whomever gets their vote,they always get screwed.

Companies come up and exploit the cheap labor, exploit the resources, damage the people and the land and cry like little infants if they have to play by any rules of safety or fairness or sanity or respect for life.

So a lot of people can't vote or won't vote. A lot of people listen to their preachers. Many make a lot of money off of lax laws, and they support the lawmaker who keeps the laws loose and ineffective.


A lot of people have cable or satellite, contrary to popular belief - which is exposing them to the same programs you all watch - they are anything but uninformed and unwordly in a popular media sense.
In other words, ignorance is not the main problem. Disillusionment and poverty and disenfranchisement influence voting numbers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Disillusionment and poverty and disenfranchisement influence voting numbers.

That is a critical point you made. For the record, this is no different in other areas of the country where the poor just don't bother, or for that matter abroad.

But that is one of those proverbial nails, that are really large, yet people still manage to miss them.

No I do not live among the poor, but have worked enough with the working poor (in mexico) that I get it. It is the same attitude. And truth be told, a well earned one, because the people get betrayed over and over and over again.

[Tsiyu]

123. This is such a vast nation

we forget about people across the continent or 1,000 miles north of us.

It's easy to do. It's hard to pay attention to all the fires burning and then to do any good putting the worst of them out.

But there are kids here losing their teeth at 20, because there is NO dental care for the vast majority of them. I have been unable to afford health care - except out-of-pocket emergency care - for 11 years.

I'm on the Don't Get Sick program. Do you think my Democratic Rep did anything to help me as he voted for corporations and insurance companies over and over?

Yeah, I voted for him because that's what a good Democrat does.

And now we have a Republican. Yipee...


maybe if our former Dem rep had done anything to help the little guys, he'd still be in office.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. I agree with you

and I know I will put more pressure on my reps to work on these issues... single payer would have been such a good thing, why I kept fighting for it. That would do a lot of good for everybody around the country.

[Tsiyu]

125. There are some things that should be no-brainers

and I know you agree, having fought for single payer.

There should be an across-the-board minimum standard of health care. This is not any infringement on any state. It's simply more cost-effective to put everyone at the same level, insuring timely vaccinations, preventative care. nutrition advice, what have you. Handled as Medicare already is (with more efficient regulation for fraud) it saves each state money now and in the future.

You wonder why people would not vote for the candidate who offers that, but no candidate offers that option or they lose valuable corporate bucks - the Democratic party fundraisers sure didn't put much into any race here in TN, so what else is a modern-day politician to do?

Thanks for this post nadinb and for exploring these topics.

[lame54]

105. that brings it back to them voting R

[antigone382]

94. The rest of the country--or at least the Eastern Seaboard--couldn't get by without our coal.

At least not yet. Once that runs out we'll be thrown off the bus again. Voting for your "social betters" is not just about kissing up to class. It's a recognition that you have to go along with the existing power structure to even have a chance. Those who have resisted have ended up unemployed, beaten, or shot. A lot of those "social betters" came from surrounding regions--particularly the industrial north--to snatch up our land, frequently under illegal circumstances, which were held up in court anyway--blow up our mountains, wreck our economies, and virtually enslave our people.

Besides, look up the record of what the *many* Democrats who have been elected have done to change this economic structure. Virtually none have. The interests that want to keep things this way are far too powerful for that--and hell yes they've terrorized the people into thinking this is their only option.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Hugs, some of us do get it

Even if I will have to find alternate terms for some of this. (The social science and history terms)

[du_da]

82. If you want to lose the support of people from that region

the quickest way to do so is to use the term social betters or to even imply that such a thing exists. Which is why there is an assumption that these people support Republicans more than Democrats because right or wrong the Republicans have been historically better at painting the opposition as elitists all while giving the impression that they themselves are "of the people". As others have mentioned this might have something to do with Democrats giving up on the region. Presentation is key to gaining trust. You have to at least give lip service to people in that region as being your equal both political and socially, other than the bills getting paid they really don't put that big of a priority on economics. Oh and never under any circumstance assume you know more about what is in their best interest than they do, that might end up really bad for you, lose of their support would be the least of your worries.

Something to think about, ask yourself how often you hear conservatives use the term hillbilly and compare that to how often you hear it from liberals.

Now the original post is however accurate about the sheriff or other local office holder holding the job forever, but this isn't about social standing it is about an attitude of if it ain't broke don't fix it.


I don't know about where you guys are getting your frame of reference from, but I grew up in East Tennessee so I'm a bit familiar with the area and know, not to mention am related to, the people in question. I would dare say, that a Venn diagram of the group often referred to as mountain people as they would refer to themselves and those who I know personally might result in an intersect and accurately titled as "friends" and be a fairly inclusive list based on that title.


End result, if you care to win political favor with the people of Appalachia you have to start by making sure you can't be painted as an elitist. Oh, and don't send someone else to do your talking for you either. They respect someone who is willing to come sit at the kitchen table or on the porch and have a direct conversation in plain english without being mealy mouthed. This is how they gage your honesty. They won't hate you because you have a disagreement but don't ever lie to them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. This is actually standard history

this system of patronage and analysis usually stays well witting economic history, and american history review.

I understand what you are saying though.

But when you study patronage systems, whether it is in Appalachia, the Lacandon Jungle or for that matter, Egypt... that comes into play. As I said, it usually stays well within the confines of academic writing, and it usually is examine a culture and relates to social relations.

Anthropology does this as well and it is not about how people are part of elites or not.

Another common term, instead of using social better, is economic and social elites. It is a little more PC, but a lot more academic and missed by a lot of people in the US. If I was writing in Spanish, for a well informed audience, I could get away with it, since it is in the papers.

No insult intended by the way.

[du_da]

87. The term elites

will get you the same result in that part of the region as social betters. In fact, it might get you a butt kicking to go with it. I don't think you understand just how much disdain these people have toward the very concept that any one person is better than anyone else. It is one of dominate defining aspects of the culture.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and see how that conclusion comes about. However, it isn't quite what your describing either. Your description is of a social acceptance toward the balance and they may have started that way, but that isn't how they are today. What you see today is more along the lines of those who think themselves elite or are willing to present themselves as such are the ones who want the job and the others don't. So long as they don't screw it up, and leave everyone else alone then no one cares. These people really do take the leave us be and we will leave you be concept to the extreme. Now here's the kicker, you take the so called social better or elite and put them on the porch or out hunting with others and he's just one of the boys. No special treatment not special consideration for his social, economic, or political position. That dynamic simply doesn't exist. The exception to the rule are the elders. However, that is because momma would beat you down with a tree limb if you did otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. I know.

But part of the problem is how you describe this to both civilians and outsiders.

And what you are describing as one more of the boys... is also part of it.

Why it is a difficult system to examine... again whether this is Appalachia or the State of Puebla in mexico.

That said, in Mexico this academic language has filtered into the news paper, here it has not. And it has made it very difficult to talk to, because you either need to come up with euphemism or call it what it is, a patronage system. Which by the way is also seen as insulting. Hell, in the middle of writing a hsitory of labor, and right now at the real beginning of this...

Since I want this to be a non-academic thing, I will have to look for a way to describe this without insulting readers. If I wanted this to stay in academic setting... it be much easier, so I will add your notes, to my editing notes.

[Tsiyu]

115. You don't speak for all of Appalachia either

I hate to say it, but the dynamic of kissing up to the elite does exist here.

The majority of mountain people I know do not do this, but enough of the poorer locals do work and serve the elites on this Mountain, do keep the elites apprised of gossip, do play the role of law enforcement and or private citizen oppressing the poor in the name of the elites, and DO keep their mouths shut so that they don't get in trouble with the elite who pay their wages.

To say that every single mountain person is some independent rebel is not accurate by any stretch of the imagination.

[southernyankeebelle]

89. I spent most of my childhood overseas. I have always considered myself a

social democratic. I have never voted for a republican because they don't have the lower middle class or working poor interests at heart.

[Strawman]

101. Excellent post

I just watched Harlan County USA. I'd recommend it to anybody interested in learning more about this.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/166744/harlan-county-usa

[Tsiyu]

111. Disenfranchisement is also an issue

The War on Drugs has taken away the voting rights of many young people

Not only have many losts their rights to felony convictions, others can't register because they are afraid of being in the system at all. Males must also register for the draft, remember.

When you take away voting rights, you take away choice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. absolutely but the first step is to raise consciousness even when

extremely general... we can get into the details later... and the war on drug is a continuation of these trends...

[Tsiyu]

118. I like to think that these discussions can bring up the related issues

After all, we are discussing voting trends here.

The holistic or wholistic approach is one I prefer to utilize, it helps us to bear in mind the cost to our entire population when we reference public policy decisions.

This region's kids are no more immune to the effects of poor public policy than inner-city kids are.

[defendandprotect]

112. k/r - back later to read

[AlinPA]

114. I look at this map occasionally and I'm convinced the Appalachians are becoming more "republican".

I don't claim to know anything about their culture. Good post, thanks.

http://countenance.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/the-red-delta-map/