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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-03-14 09:34 AM
Original message
Woody Allen
Edited on Mon Feb-03-14 09:53 AM by No Elephants
began dating Soon Yi, for whom he had been a parental figure, at least as early as her high school years. when she was a high school years. She is 35 years his junior, but that was less shocking to me than the fact that he had helped raise her since she was about eight years old and was a father figure to her and Farrow's other children for about a dozen years.

When the Woody Soon Yi mess first hit the fan, people reported having seen Allen out and about alone with Soon Yi, mostly at ball games, from the time Soon Yi was in her freshman year in high school, if not sooner. At the time, her mother and his lover thought Allen's forays with Soon Yi were simply a father figure spending time with Soon Yi and thought it cute that high schooler Soon Yi was asking for new outfits to wear when she and Allen went out alone.

Allen's defenders claim that Allen and Soon Yi were not related and did not have sex until she was about 18 and he never married Farrow, maintaining a separate, nearby, residence throughout the dozen years of their relationship. However, to my mind, these are all technicalities that could have meant little to an 8 year old child. Clearly, things like marriage certificates and separate residences did not mean a lot to either Farrow or Allen, either. For one thing, they behaved like a family. If you google, you can find many photos online where Farrow and Allen and Farrow's children appear very much like a family unit. This included adopting two children together and maybe having one biological child together.

Regardless of what the legal technicalities may have been, I cannot discount the emotional relationship that began when Soon Yi was 8 or younger. I don't believe than Soon Yi can discount that, either. I believe that, in all decency, Wood Allen should not have discounted that, either, regardless of what age she was when they first had intercourse.

Allen had taken photos of Soon Yi nude and "spread eagle." Finding the photos was how her mother, and his lover, first learned of the affair. To this, his response was only, "The heart wants what it wants."

He had also made a film showing him and Mariel Hemingway in bed, as live in lovers, when she was 16 and he was 42, in which he (as the movie character) said that he knew he should not be with Mariel, but was nonetheless with her.

I don't know about young Mariel, but other women that he cast in his films were his wife or lovers in real life, from second wife Louise Lasser, to Diane Keaton to Farrow herself. He had an affair with a 17 year old actress/NY high school student whose part in Annie Hall landed on the cutting toom floor. (She was born near the year that Mariel Hemingway was born.) His first wife sued for joking in his stand up routines that she had not resisted a sexual assault by a stranger that she had suffered during their marriage. His early films abound with the supposedly humorous portrayal of things like bestiality, far from the norm for mainstream movies in the 1970s.

I don't know what, if anything happened between him and his then seven year old daughter. However, I have no idea why, in light of his other behavior, especially with her sister, anyone would automatically disbelieve Dylan Farrow, and even less idea why people who have no way of knowing are speaking out. Even if he never so much as touched Dylan inappropriately, these accusations, made when she was much younger and repeated now, would show that she is very troubled and public figures should stay the hell out of it, IMO.

In any event, Soon Yi was enough for me. Once that mess became public, I stopped seeing Allen movies, even on TV. (Before that, I saw every one he made, either in the theater or on TV.) That was me. I don't advocate that anyone else do the same. However, I do advocate that public figures stop piling on as to Dylan Farrow's claims. Just stay the hell out of it.

Farrow-Allen family type photos

Woody with Mia Farrow and Soon Yi

The photo that appears at the link below one will not show up here, but shows the family-like group when Soon Yi was younger than she is in the above photos.

Woody alone with Soon Yi, when Soon Yi was quite young.

more recently

with their adopted daughters

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-03-14 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is deeply disturbing.
I am a long time Woody Allen fan. That makes it all the more difficult. This is so bad.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-03-14 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. We were all huge fans. At least I was and so was everyone I know.
Edited on Mon Feb-03-14 12:15 PM by No Elephants
However, that has nothing to do with whether he is a perve or not. (The guy behind Elmo was beloved, too.) I think his affair with Soon Yi proves he is not beyond giving in to sexual feelings for a girl he raised, but that is Soon Yi and not Dylan.

Latest to chime in: Barbara Walters.

She stressed that she knows Woody and has never seen a more sensitive. loving father. Duh?

I am not saying that Woody is mistreating his daughters, or has ever mistreated any child, but how the hell does she think incestors treat their young daughters, especially smart incestors and especially when someone like Barbara Walters is around? (I don't recall her defending Michael Jackson and look how nice he was to all kids in public.)

She also said that it's been a 20-year marriage. If someone marries a girl they helped raise from the age of 8 (when they were in their forties), what the F does the length of the marriage to Soon Yi prove? It's not even relevant. No one ever said that he was faking his desire to be with Soon Yi. Au contraire.

Besides, after all the flap that accompanied that courtship, which public figure would have the nerve to dump Soon Yi, whether he wanted to or not? Most of all, the length of his marriage to Soon Yi has zero to do with whether he raped Dylan. Plenty of molestors are in long term marriages, beloved and respected pillars of the community, etc. Even married pastors.

Barbara also said that plenty of men looked at their stepdaughters differently than their own children. She said nothing, though, about whether this alleged plentitude of males who feel free to f**k their stepdaughters had met the girls as adults or had raised the girls since they were 8 or under.

Moreover, the viewpoint of the men, dear liberated Barbara, is not the point, is it? The important point of view is that of the the a girl to whom you've been a father figure since she was 8 (and you were 43). Many would say that no matter how old she is when she "consents" to sex with you, the consent is not valid precisely because she has viewed you as a father most of her cognizant life. And therefore, you should deny your urges. (I cannot even imagine being sexually attracted to anyone I had helped raise from the age of 8 in the first place.)

Barbara's closer which she stressed to the audience emphatically was VERY IMPORTANT: This was all investigated 20 years ago and no charges were brought. Again, duh, Barbara?

Dylan's claims were not investigated right after the alleged rape, so no one even looked for DNA. Given lack of DNA, a trial would have been the word of a 7 year old, newly deprived of her father and one of her sister in a very upsetting way, against the word of a very rich, very famous, very beloved, very smart man who had been claiming that Mia Farrow had brainwashed the kid out of jealousy and vengeance. So, had charges been brought, a conviction would not have been assured by any means. That is not the kind of case any prosecutor wants to bring against anyone, let alone a show business icon like Woody Allen who would hire the best lawyers in the world.

Walters must be a lot denser than one would assume, given how many millions she has made on supposedly intelligent, insightful interviews.

Again, I stress that I am not saying that Allen is either innocent or guilty of molesting Dylan. I am saying that (1) the other evidence suggests it is not way out of the realm of possiblility that Allen would be attracted to a young girl, including one he had fathered; and (2) even if that were not so, people like Barbara Walters should STFU because they have zero way of knowing what happenedand, regardless of what happened or what did not happen, Dylan is obviously fragile--and for good reason, given the traumatic and permanent way that her family broke up. So, please, just shut up.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-04-14 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Let me tell you about Barbara Wawa.
Edited on Tue Feb-04-14 05:46 AM by Enthusiast
A lot denser? How will we quantify that? Barbara Wawa said, "Rush Limbaugh is a fascinating man." She also did the hit piece interview with George McGovern leading up to his lost presidential bid. Barbara is a partisan hack.

Barbara stressed that she knows Woody and has never seen a more sensitive loving father. Barbara, anyone can look good, put on a good face, if that is their objective. Anyone can play the role of the good loving father, mother, priest or other authoritarian figure. Those with something to hide are most likely very polished at hiding dark family secrets.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-04-14 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. IIt's funny you should call her a partisan hack because that is what I think she is.
Edited on Tue Feb-04-14 06:42 AM by No Elephants
Her father was Lou Walters, who owned the Latin Quarter nightclub in Manhattan. The Latin Quarter and the Copacabana were the two biggest and most popular night clubs in Manhattan, in a time when nightclubbing was what the rich and famous did, as shown in many old movies made in or about the 1920s to the 1950s.

They booked many stars and show business executives. And, originally, TV filming was done in Manhattan, not Hollwood. In fact, I think that, at one point, the Emmie Award show used to be split, with one whole cast, orchestra, etc. in L.A. and another in Manhattan because so many actors potential award recipients were in one place or the other.

Barbara was not bad looking as a young woman, but she was no Marilyn Monroe or supermodel either. She certainly was not brilliant. Very significantly, she had what is called a lateral lisp, not very unusual among Bostonians of the day (thanks to their close ties with Brits, I think), but not acceptable in New York broadcasting or national broadcasting at that time, when no discernible accent of any kind was acceptable.

Yet, she was hired, and in some very high profile positions, to boot. In an industry where, for every person on camera, there are maybe 300,000 dying to take their place. Daddy's connections or maybe even Daddy's inside info on what went on his club? Which married execs and celebs showed up there with dates other than their wives? And more? I leave that to you, dear reader, for I dare not speculate about such things.

After a time, it would have been nearly impossible to fire her, for a variety of reasons, even if they wanted to.


Circa 2007, I was posting on couple of boards that allowed both Republican and Democratic posters (a fact that finally caused me to register with DU. I got so sick of new or supposedly new posters showing up, one after the other, with the identical talking points that were supposed to be challenging to the left posters that I could not stand it anymore. But I digress again.

One Republican poster who was always dead certain of things she could not possibly know for sure, allowed as how the entire panel/cast of The View was all "liberal." (She also did not have a concept of Democrats that were conservative or centrist. A real political sophisticate, she was. I was not politically sophisticated, either, but I could tell the difference between my personal opinions and assumptions and objectively vefiable, unassailable facts. She could not. If it popped into her head, it must be gospel.)

Anyway, I said that was not so. I don't remember what evidence I cited or who I mentioned. However, I do remember that she replied, "Well, Barbara Walters' liberalism more than makes up for that."

As far as I knew at the time, every man Walters had ever mentioned dating or marrying was a Republican. I found it hard to believe that would tend to happen naturally if Barbara were any kind of Democrat. So, I posted that. Then, a Democrat who was friendly off board with the Republican said "You can just tell that Barbara is a Democrat by the things she says." (Yes, every board has its cabals and cliques, in this case, even across party lines. Or, as my friend's brother once said, "One lies and the other one swears to it."

So, one day, I am listening to The View while writing and happened to look up at the screen, just as Babs looked directly in the camera and said, "In all these years, I have never said anything about my own political views, how I vote. Never. It's very different today, but that is how they trained us when I started working and I have never deviated from that." Or words very close to those.

Good thing that the Republican poster and her Democratic accomplice could see through all that silence, through many romantic and social relationships with Republicans, etc. and determine without a trace of uncertainty that Barbara is, and always has been, a liberal, isn't it?

BTW, I did not know those things about Barbara's hatchet job on McGovern, etc., so thanks.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-04-14 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. P.S. I ran across an article only this morning, while researching
the circumstances of Hoffman's death a bit. In the article, the man in Connecticut who investigated Dylan's claims when she first made them stated that the then child had contradicted herself. First, she said that her vagina had been touched, then she said it hadn't, then she she said it had. To my mind, she was a very upset 7 year old (Whether Allen ever molested her or not) and she went back to the original version of the story and stuck with that. To his mind, she made contradictory statements and he seems to give that fact as much weight as he would if an adult bank robber were speaking of one bank robbery. He also said that she "sounded rehearsed."

He's a pro and an eyewitness. I am neither. So make of that as you wish.

As I said originally, for me, it is enough that the man raised a kid 35 years his junior from the time she was * and then had sex with her--and to this day shows no awareness of the significance of having raised her. "I fell in a love with a girl and married her." Nothing more than that, according to him.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-04-14 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. We might never know the complete truth.
I remain suspicious. But that's my nature.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-04-14 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. The whole thing is quite disturbing
I still like most of his films.
I guess the reason why people (including me) are not totally on board with the accusations is that it's become hard to tell what is truth from what is the animosity between the two. I've seen people in the midst of divorces and after the divorce level bizarre accusations against one another.

I lean toward it's likely that he did. But I remain somewhat skeptical just because of how the divorce has played out periodically over the years.

As to Walters - it's not unusual for people to come to the defense of their friends in times of crisis. Often people closest to the situation are the most clueless because they don't want to believe they had been so blind.
Roman Polanski's case is a decent example, in that his friends rallied to his defense when the accusations against him first surfaced. (Though I do tend to agree that the horrid murder of his wife and his time in a Polish concentration camp messed him up badly) Then when they were confirmed, his supporters went quiet until the girl he molested got older and said she just wanted the whole thing to end and that he should be left alone.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-05-14 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. For me, Soon Yi is enough and there is no doubt that happened.
Edited on Wed Feb-05-14 04:32 AM by No Elephants
The only question there is whether he waited until she was over statutory rape age before he started having intercourse with her. While that matters for legal purposes, IMO, it is almost irrelevant in the situation where you are the girl's father figure.

I was a huge fan, but, as I posted, will not even watch his movies on TV because I don't want to contribute to raising the ratings they may get. It's not as he needs my movie ticket or anything else, but I just can't.

Since Allen will not be prosecuted, the only thing involved is public opinion. Everyone can make up their own mind.

As far as Barbara Walters, it is not so much that she defended him, it's that she gave only one side. Given her long reputation as a newswoman, and the fact that her defense took place on national television, it may weigh more than a tweet from Diane Keaton or whatever. Sherri tried to raise facts on the other side, and Barbara talked over her. Had Barbara's defenses been good ones, I may not have minded them so much, but they were bs in my opinion and she should have known that. Still, because of her reputation, they will carry weight.
Moreover, while I can understand wanting to vouch for a friend if that friend is accused of say, embezzlement.

But, when your endorsement of your friend may do only heaven knows what to your friend's obviously emotionally and mentally vulnerable daughter, maybe you should tread more lightly. Woody Allen is incredibly honored and beloved by many, despite the rumors, rich as Croesus, living with the love of his life supposedly, needs nothing. His daugher, on the other hand, is obviously vulnerable. Any truly loving and senstive father would put her first, IMO.

If Barbara feels she needs to suck up to Allen, she can always contact privately and explain that she is keeping mum out of fear of what all these statements might do to his daughter.

However, IMO, this incredibly sensitive and loving father is speaking out himself and asking his friends to speak out, so maybe that wouldn't work. (I find it difficult to believe that someone like Keaton would not have called him before opening her mouth publicly and asking him his wishes in the matter.)
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