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Why are some Democrats furious with Snowden?

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-18-13 03:38 AM
Original message
Why are some Democrats furious with Snowden?
In my opinion, all countries knew what we were doing, and many were in it with us, as our anti-terrorism "partners."

In my opinion, terrorists with any degree of organization or sophistication knew what we were doing as well. For example, Osama never used a phone or email. He used couriers and, when he wanted to communicate with the US, he had a video delivered to Al Jazeera or some such.

And probably many ordinary people in other parts of the world, who often know more about us than we do, knew as well.

IMO, the Constitution, both the Fourth Amendment and First Amendment freedom of association (see NAACP v. Button and Citizens United, both of which allow people who "associate" with each other to remain anonymous) forbids this type of mass surveillance, with no reason whatever to believe most of the people being surveilled have done anything illegal (it being understood that bullshit stuff, like littering, is excluded from this discussion).

Many people, including No Elephants, believe that we are all considered suspects not of the kind of terrorism committed by Al Qaeeda, but of the kind of "domestic terrorism" committed by the Sons of Liberty and the Vietnam Era protesters. Namely, if you do not like the current set of PTB, no matter who they may be at the moment, you are the enemy or may become the enemy, as soon as you do something about it, like Occupy Wall Street, for instance. (includes some of the actions of law enforcement against peaceful demonstrators)

This kind of suspicion used to be confined to the so-called loony left, but the paranoid right has now joined in the belief that government is targeting them. And, both groups are probably correct, though agencies like the CIA and FBI tend to be Republican or center right Democrat, not left.

BTW, this is why the IRS harassment of Tea Party groups and leftish or leftist groups made me feel no better than I felt when only one political philosophy (Tea Party) seemed to have been targeted. (Part of the continuing effort to head toward moderate Republicanism as the nation's only political philosophy, aside of increasingly smaller differences on social issues--see the wiki on No Labels).

Having a political POV, even teaching that political POV, is not forbidden to a 501(C)(4). And, notice, applications by Republicans and Democrats not identifiable as Tea Party or "progressive" were not targeted at all, at least as far as we have been told so far. So, the IRS had no business applying any political criteria at all, neither left nor right.

How crazy have we become in this country that we don't even notice, or seem to care, when government is wholesale violating our Constitutional rights and statutory rights (aka, rule of law), as long as the rights of "both sides" are being violated?

Anyway, why are Democrats, supposedly leftists so mad at Snowden, I doubt he gave any information to terrorists groups or foreign nations that they did not already have. Is it simply that he exposed embarrassed Obama (along with the rubber stamp FISA court)?

If Obama puts himself above the Constitution, and so do Democratic politicians, that's bad enough. But when ordinary members of the left put Obama and other Demlicans or Republicrats above the Constitution, we're done. Just put that tattered pieced of paper in the trash and burn it because the only thing it's going to do for you is delude you and keep you off guard.

To sum up: I believe that mass surveillance by the Government has been violating at least two of our Constitutional rights, that the left have been and will be more of a target than the right (When were Tea Party demonstrators ever kettled or maced or sent to the hospital). And therefore, I cannot understand why some who are allegedly left are furious with Snowden, rather than with government.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-18-13 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, that's it, completely.
Edited on Thu Jul-18-13 03:54 AM by Enthusiast
The Snowden revelations reflect badly on the president and the nation. Unfortunately that is not all that is reflecting badly on the president.

The media is 100% united in their criticism of Snowden. Therefore I am very suspicious of the media's anti-Snowden sentiments.

Some of the President's internet defenders are employees, paid to give him support.

Others, critical of the President, are anti-Obama ideologues, often racists. Some of the criticism of Obama is also done by paid internet warriors. Of this I have no doubt.

Then there are the rest of us, real people with real opinions and concerns about the nation. It makes for a total mess.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-18-13 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. A member of AP did give a spokesperson for the D of S a hard time about Snowden.
Edited on Thu Jul-18-13 05:30 AM by No Elephants /

Then again, AP had learned relatively recently that it had been surveilled heavily. Throw First Amendment Freedom of the Press under the same bus as First Amendment Freedoms of Speech and Association, and Fourth Amendment safeguards against unreasonable search and seizure.

Then, what with drone killings, indefinition detention and the like, you've pretty much done away with the entire Bill of Rights, except for quartering soldiers, the second amendment and states' rights. Democrats may win elections, but the issue victories are all pure Republican.

BTW, local police now have software that enables them to track every car that has a license plate. And then, there's Google Earth.

I wonder how much taxpayer money was used to fund or help development by private companies of software to spy on taxpayers?

And, now, the USG is legally free to propaganda its own citizens, much as Hitler was free to do that. /

So now, our tax dollars will be spent on convincing us that whatever the USG does is good for us. (Winston Smith: "I love Big Brother.")

Could a Republican President have gotten away with this stuff AND had Democrats defending him?

It's a brave new world, LOTE voters, a brave new world.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-19-13 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think we were being propagandized before the rubber stamp.
And it certainly isn't limited to national security issues. Most of this propaganda is formulated to maintain the status quo, to protect corporate interests that often harm the people of the nation.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-19-13 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not sure what you are saying
about a rubber stamp?
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