I'm a part-time union worker. Been working retail for 29 years. You spend, I earn.

[bigtree]

We all want good, long-term, better paying jobs. But, in the discussions here, I've noticed a tendency by some to talk down part-time, seasonal, temporary work. There's also been quite a few posts decrying the fact that most of the jobs created lately are in the retail and service industries.

Theses criticisms have been offered as a retort to the economic news which shows a 21 month, upward trend in folks finding work. There are 'seasonal' jobs being created now which are mostly temporary, but can lead to permanent positions if business is strong enough.

In the survey, temporary jobs are increasing. Temporary jobs are, in fact, one of the leading indicators of an improving job market. Many businesses take in temporary workers and retain many of those jobs if economic conditions continue to support them.

Retail and service jobs mean income for those lucky enough to have and keep them. We'd all like to see America actually make more things to sell, rather that just trade in our labor and what we can provide, but for many of us, most of us, we make our living based on how much folks spend in our businesses.

The tone of the criticisms of some are that there's something denigrating about retail or service jobs and that they should be dismissed as aberrations or insignificant in the overall effort to increase employment. Some have even discouraged the spending that normally occurs this time of year.

That spending is what determines whether or not my employer will consider giving me enough hours to survive. That business means a paycheck for me and others who happen to hold these types of positions. Hope that matters for folks out there critiquing the employment news.

[Dreamer Tatum]

1. People who decry consumerism with their right hand and wring their other hand over jobs

shouldn't be taken seriously, anyway. Economic growth requires consumption, which requires spending. Them's the facts. Good on you.

[msongs]

7. it requires creation, which has mostly been shipped overseas in the name of ever cheaper quality nt

[MADem]

2. I think it's not wise to put people down for any reason, particularly if you haven't

walked a mile in the other person's flip flops. Or tennis shoes. Or workboots. Or sabots!

Seasonal work is better than none, certainly.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Thank you. You have said it perfectly!

:kick:

[EFerrari]

4. No, the problem with those jobs isn't that they aren't honest work

but that many are only seasonal and will be gone in January.

[bigtree]

8. my store, my company

. . . doesn't just take on employees and dump them when the season ends. That's just not the way their hiring works. Strong Christmas seasons are invested to help the company expand, and hopefully, attract more customers.

Some will drop these workers, but many folks rely on that temporary work each year to supplement their income.

Temporary help employment trends, while not an official leading economic indicator, also tends to foreshadow overall employment trends across the economy.

[EFerrari]

14. Then, they foreshadw employment trends every November

which are then corrected in January.

A better way to go about this might be to compare November and January across several years. I'm ready for things to get better, believe me. Two of us are way under-employed and in my brother's case, he has three teenage girls.

Seasonal work is work. I don't remember doing any at this time of year but I've worked in retail, in fast food, in construction, in security, in bookkeeping, in Real Estate, in anything that would bring in a check. I could pretty much staff a whole employment agency myself, lol. Translating and teaching were my favorites because they paid well, the work was fun and the environment was nice.

[bigtree]

22. the revisions lately have all been upward

they show that more jobs are being created.

[treestar]

62. They are honest work

And it is a problem only when it's not what the person wants.

Teachers could take off the summer, or get a seasonal job as a lifeguard, for example.

People who clean up snow know they need another job for the summer. So what? People can put together any situation they want.

[EFerrari]

84. You misread my post. And no, people can't put together any situation

they want because they don't hire themselves.

[BOHICA12]

5. Retail - not for faint of heart!

Hours, Customers, Supervisors ..... all have a habit of sucking pond water. I hope much of the tone is the realization that the clerks, cashiers, sales folk work harder than most for minimal compensation.

[bigtree]

11. the smaller the company

. . . the more pressure to please and provide. A lot of the pressure is creeping into the realizations of the bigger stores to get back to more responsive customer service. Mine just happened to have that notion from its beginning. It dropped off, but there's much more pressure to attract and retain customers than ever before. You can't afford to be cynical about it these days.

[JI7]

15. you work for a smaller company?

[bigtree]

23. not now

but I have in the past. They make you feel every dollar that goes out the door. Less so with a big store, which I've been working for 29 years now, 12 years pt and the rest ft.

[Bonobo]

6. You cannot support yourself let alone a family on that kind of work.

No one is denigrating the work or the worker.

We are bemoaning the fact that it does not fairly compensate someone for their hard work or offer sufficient money to really support a full and happy life.

[bigtree]

9. Indeed, you can.

I certainly have. It's been rocky, but I've held several jobs at once and also rely on seasonal spikes to provide overtime hours.

It's certainly no one's notion of an ideal economy, but any of these jobs are welcome and encouraging.

[Bonobo]

10. Well then I am very glad that such jobs exist, but if they exist in EXCHANGE

for jobs that offer better wages, health insurance and the like, then I am sorry for that and wish that there were regulations which demanded that workers get full time hours and health insurance as well as a much higher hourly wage.

In return, I would personally like to see goods cost much more money and see an end to the import of cheap Chinese crap.

[bigtree]

12. there's more of a progression that is inevitable, than an 'exchange'

Employment will build as the economy progresses. There will be fits and starts, but hopefully the 21 month trend upward in the majority of indicators will continue. Hopefully manufacturing and construction will find some footing as the majority of folks who hold these types of jobs earn more and are able to afford more.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

26. it's a clear upward trend. The bureau of Labor Statistics confirms

The report says that temporary work is up and that is usually a good indicator of an improving job market. That's what folks are looking at favorably. No one is saying that these pt and temp jobs are good enough, but they are a welcome start to a, hopefully, recovering economy and job market.

_______________________________

The number of persons employed part time for economic reasons (sometimes referred to as involuntary part-time workers) dropped by 378,000 over the month to 8.5 million. These individuals were working part time because their hours had been cut back or because they were unable to find a full-time job.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm


The question is whether this happening too early. Heidi Shierholz of the liberal leaning Economic Policy Institute says she thinks it is. She says that the large portion of job growth coming from temp jobs was a problem, especially if it continued. But with 14.5 million people still out of work, any job is a bonus for the economy. And we are a long way from where temp hiring was when the economy was strong in early 2008. What’s more, temp jobs can often lead to permanent jobs. So fewer temp jobs could mean fewer permanent jobs next month. Shierholz says in a sustained job recovery, temp jobs will continue to grow, but permanent jobs will grow faster. We had that later and not the former. And that could be the most important sign that today’s large drop in the unemployment rate is nothing to cheer about.
read: http://moneyland.time.com/2011/06/06/whos-hiring-why-the-job-market-slowdown-might-not-be-temporary/


Economists for Bank of America Merrill Lynch, in an analysis of the Friday numbers, characterized the good jobs numbers with a catchy headline: “Employment: Labor market moved into second gear.” The U.S. economy has built momentum heading into 2012, they said. “Over the last three months, the US economy has been generating roughly 145,000 jobs per month – not a blow-out, to be sure, but still ahead of what he saw in the summer. The weakness in employment continues to be in the state and local government sector,” wrote the economists.

Employment gains were posted in most sectors of the economy. Job leaders included the retail sector, which added 50,000 posts, and the broad white collar category of professional and business services rose by 33,000. Temporary employment, usually a harbinger of future employment, increased by 22,300 positions. Leisure and hospitality, also a harbinger of increased white-collar and business spending, rose by 22,000.
http://www.nationofchange.org/unemployment-drops-86-percent-lowest-march-2009-1322845589


The net 120,000 gain in jobs included retail surging 49,800 and health care rising 18,700. Temporary hiring — seen as a positive sign for future job growth — increased 22,300. Manufacturing jobs edged up 2,000, with most of the gains coming from automakers.
http://www.minnpost.com/bradallen/2011/12/02/33540/unemployment_falls_to_86_as_nation_adds_120000_jobs

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

56. 21 months straight of solid jobs growth isn't 'hollow'.

All you've got left in your bitter arsenal is the 'cheerleading' thing. How pathetic that you'd repeat something that the immature ninnies here like to throw around as an insult. That shows a shallowness in your reasoning that doesn't bear any further need for response.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

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[bigtree]

71. we've had this service economy for decades, through boom and bust

Manufacturing hasn't driven the economy for ages. This is going to be the shape and form of our economy until we figure out a way to bring those jobs back. In the meantime, we will recover and these retail and service jobs will continue to lead the economy for a majority of Americans. It's just silly to suggest that the economy isn't built on these types of jobs. It certainly is, and has been for a long time now.

Part-time, temporary, and seasonal positions will be the inevitable leaders in a recovering jobs market. We're not going to jump right into full-time, permanent positions until the overall economy supports them. It shouldn't need to be explained here, but that modest job growth will manifest itself in increased spending, which, in turn, helps establish business, which, in turn, helps increase hours and employment. That's the way the economy will improve; in fits and starts and as a progression, rather than a sudden boom of employment. That's why economists point to trends, like the BLS did when describing this latest unemployment report:

"Employment continued to trend up in retail trade, leisure and hospitality, professional and business services, and health care. Government employment continued to trend down."
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

If the trends were the reverse, they would report them as so. But, you go on working to convince folks that none of this means anything. Talk about 'discouraging' workers.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[bigtree]

75. no you're not

this is some sort of high for you.

just unreal.

[nevergiveup]

13. Owning a small retail Ma and Pa business for 35 years,

I applaud your post. We always bring in a couple of part timers during the holidays. I pay them way above a retail average salary, we couldn't get through the season without them and they really appreciate the work. I should also add that in a great majority of cases they have been wonderful people and some of them over the years have stayed on for full time jobs. I am knocking on wood as I type this but things are really looking good for us so far this holiday season. I hope this is true for your retail place of employment too. If those of us in Ma and Pa retail start to boom again the American economy will follow.

[Skittles]

16. you're not quite getting it

retail, service work is fine

when it's NOT fine is when that's what is replacing OTHER CAREER PATHS

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[Skittles]

21. don't even get me started on India

they suck big time but they are CHEAP so American companies simply lower their standards to accommodated their mediocrity

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[defendandprotect]

20. +1 --

[bigtree]

27. it is the state of our economy right now. We're not going to jump into another economy

. . . right out of a recovery. We're going to lead with the jobs that our economy will support. It's going to be a progression rather than an explosion of employment which will need to build on the economy as it improves.

No one is saying that these jobs are ideal or that it's good they've replaced other jobs like in manufacturing, but they are what we should expect to see if we are in fact recovering.

You're not getting it, I think. A job is a job right now. Pay is pay. I've worked in a retail job for the majority of my life. It sustains me and it's a worthwhile contribution to society.

We certainly have to work harder and sometimes take on more than one job, but the return of these jobs isn't the tragedy that folks are positing in response to the improving job news. Their return will signal the beginning of our recovery. When folks are able to spend more because of the modest increases in employment, the economy will recover further.

When we pull ourselves out of this hole, hopefully there will be more incentives to offer the manufacturing and construction sectors to get them rolling again.

[Skittles]

81. is this the official party line?

you really should have bullets on your talking points

[Skittles]

82. you should include bullets on your talking points

:rofl:

[Rex]

77. Yep, but maybe they don't want to 'get it'.

Denial is a strong drug, especially when the topic gets personal.

[defendandprotect]

19. Major department stores in my area have been ridding themselves of sales clerks...

so replacing some of them now for Xmas doesn't mean much --

For decades now if you went into Macy's you'd have trouble finding a salesclerk

and now there are "stations" where you'll find one.

L&T is now doing the same thing -- entire sections of various departments without

a permanent sales clerk -- you have to find someone who moves around.

Many familiar faces are gone over the past years and from what I've heard it's long

been a practice to try to deny sales people enough hours to qualify for full time

employment and the benefits that come with full time -- ?

[Edweird]

24. Seasonal work is called 'seasonal' for a reason. Trying to conflate it with permanent hiring

is dishonest.It's also comically transparent.

[bigtree]

28. you're obviously talking out of your own head

many, many, seasonal jobs are retained, especially in an improving economy.

You're the dishonest one here, pretending that seasonal workers can't turn those positions into permanent ones. The can and often do. I've been working-class all my adult life. I've worked construction, I've worked retail, and I've worked on government contracts.

You're not going to begin a recovery with a rush of full-time positions. It's just not going to happen. There will need to be a progression of employment which builds on a recovering economy. That's going to manifest itself in part-time positions at first and temporary ones until employers feel they can support these folks with an expanding business. An increase in temp work is seen by most economists as a harbinger of an improving job market.

It's comical that you don't seem to understand that.

[Edweird]

29. Prove it. Show me stats that prove seasonal workers are permanent.

[bigtree]

30. I didn't say that.

I said that many, many seasonal workers find permanent work in those positions. The postal service and UPS, for example always take on more workers this time of year and the positions are always classified as temporary and part-time. Yet, many, many seasonal postal workers end up in permanent positions. In fact, really the best way to get one of those jobs in the postal or delivery service is to take one of the seasonal positions and push to get more work when the season ends.


career advice from Monster: http://career-advice.monster.com/job-search/getting-started/from-seasonal-to-permanent/article.aspx


From Seasonal to Permanent

By John Rossheim, Monster Senior Contributing Writer

As far as holiday traditions go, one employment practice is nearly as familiar as swigging eggnog or lighting a menorah: Retailers always need to hire seasonal workers to satisfy swelling crowds of customers.

These temporary jobs, typically lasting from a couple of weeks to a couple of months, can be a great way for you to check out the retail sector or to try out another retailer if you're already in the industry. And if you play your cards right, you may be able to parlay that seasonal gig into a permanent job.

How to Choose a Gig

When most workers take on holiday retail jobs, they don't have career objectives in mind. They're just looking to make a few extra bucks. But if you're considering converting a seasonal stint into a full-time job, you should look before you leap. Here are some things to consider:

Prepare a list of five or more retailers you would like to work for.

Inquire about seasonal work as early as possible.

Distinguish your application from others by putting care into its preparation.

Be specific about the kind of work you want to do, but indicate your flexibility.

From the start, declare your interest in eventual full-time or permanent part-time employment.

Set Your Sights on a Permanent Position

When a retailer invites you for an interview or offers you a seasonal position, it's time to ask some probing questions:

What are the prospects of being offered permanent employment?

Will the company evaluate my performance as a seasonal worker? How?

What can I do to demonstrate my superior value as a permanent employee?

What percentage of your seasonal employees is eventually offered regular jobs?

If the potential employer sees your questions as overly aggressive or out of place, consider looking elsewhere for seasonal work.

Prove Yourself on the Job

As soon as you start a seasonal retail gig, you need to show the boss you're serious about converting your opportunity into a permanent position. Here are some concrete steps you can take:

Demonstrate grace under the pressure of the holiday shopping season.

Be 100 percent reliable; work all the hours you've agreed to and more if possible.

Volunteer for a variety of tasks; show you're eager to learn all aspects of the retail operation.

Show your ability to keep customers happy.

Periodically remind your supervisor of your interest in a permanent position.

Clinch that Permanent Gig

How do you turn your supervisor's attention to your interest in a permanent job when he is working 80 hours a week at the peak of the holiday season?

Ask your supervisor how you can find out on your own what permanent positions may be available -- via a jobs bulletin board, a Web site or the human resources department, for example.

Use the human resources department to learn how to apply and when.

Give your supervisor and the human resources department a summary of your responsibilities and accomplishments as a seasonal worker with your application.

After your seasonal gig is over, what if you don't successfully land a permanent job? Let your supervisor know you're available to work during special sales, inventory and other peak times throughout the year. And look forward to brighter prospects for the next holiday season.

http://career-advice.monster.com/job-search/getting-started/from-seasonal-to-permanent/article.aspx


Albany, Ga. -

The HoneyBaked Company announced this week that more than 6,000 seasonal employees will be hired for the holidays nationwide.

Other retail chains such as Kohl's, Dillard's and Belk are also hiring workers to help throughout the holidays.

Georgia Department of Labor Unit Supervisor Dale Hasty says job seekers shouldn't take seasonal work for granted because it may provide more opportunities.

"You start in a seasonal job and at the end of the season there's a chance you may get hired permanently. When you're a good work, employers want to keep good people," said Hasty.

"Don't let the fact that you might be let go after the season, turn you down. Get a job. Get established in something and maybe you never know...

read: http://www.wtol.com/story/16069310/seasonal-jobs-may-lead-to-permanent-ones

[Edweird]

33. Why no numbers? Show me your "many, many'. Let's see how many seasonal workers become permanent.

What percentage of people hired for seasonal work are still there in March?

[bigtree]

36. don't be foolish. You can see that seasonal to permanent isn't unheard of

. . . it's in fact, an established fact that many, many seasonal jobs translate into permanent positions, especially in an improving jobs market. You want to parse and nitpick it, go ahead. You just sound bitter, hypercritical, and are ridiculously dismissive of this obvious truth.

Remember, you began dismissing the notion entirely. You're just plain wrong.

[Edweird]

37. Substantiate your bullshit claim or admit it's not true.

[bigtree]

42. that many seasonal jobs are converted into permanent ones?

I don't have to prove such an obvious fact. Go find someone else for your pissing contest.

[Edweird]

43. You make the assertion, you prove it. But you can't because it's a lie.

Anybody with two brain cells bouncing off each other that's spent 5 minutes in the real world knows this.

[bigtree]

47. here's a couple more 'liars' to tell you the same thing

A temporary job can become a permanent position. 90% of all companies use temporary employees and 40% of Manpower's millions of workers find permanent employment through their temporary placements each year. This means that even though temping may seem like a step down from permanent employment, it actually can be a step through the door at a company you are interested in working for and a way to get hired permanently.

http://jobsearch.about.com/cs/tempjobs/a/tempjobs.htm

. . . nearly 40 percent (about 35,800) of seasonal team members joining as permanent employees last year after the holidays . . .
http://staffingtalk.com/tips-onboarding-seasonal-workers/


Nationwide, retail giant Macy’s will be hiring 78,000 temporary employees this holiday season to work in 800 stores, according to a press release from the Cincinnati-based retailer (though the company will not give out specific numbers for each store). “We usually start (seasonal workers) the day after Thanksgiving and most work through the second week of January,” says a Macy’s women’s sportswear department manager in Southern California, who asked not to be identified. “We do hire full-time after that and typically draw from the pool of holiday employees, choosing those who demonstrated great selling skills and customer service skills.”
http://www.careerbliss.com/advice/turn-that-seasonal-gig-into-a-full-time-job/


Likewise, Seattle-based retailer Nordstrom, will be bringing aboard seasonal workers for the 6-week holiday season. According to a human resources employee at its Irvine, Calif., location, the numbers of seasonal hires are based on the specific needs of each department, though she too, would not give out specifics. However, she added, “We make sure our seasonal workers are just as qualified as our regular employees.” Nordstrom also considers seasonal workers for permanent employment after their 6-week stints are completed.
http://www.careerbliss.com/advice/turn-that-seasonal-gig-into-a-full-time-job/


We take a look at our sales traffic leading up to the holiday season, and staff accordingly,” explains Hipp. “We need to make sure we have enough workers to provide the best customer service possible.”

Her counterpart at JCPenney, Tom Stone, says he’s banking on more sales with the improving economy and is hiring about 10 percent more employees this holiday season than last.

“The good news is that we retain the majority of these workers even after the holidays are over,” Stone says. “We usually get a good group of employees and like to keep them on board.”
http://www.theticker.tc/story/local-retailers-hanging-holiday-help-wanted-signs

[Edweird]

57. Again, let's see some numbers. What percent get hired permanent?

The best you've come up with so far is "30% of employers intend to retain 'some'" which is hardly "many, many" and realistically very very few.

The fact is that labor costs are controlled and if the sales do not support more than 5 customer service employees, that's all you're going to have after the Christmas rush. It doesn't matter if you bring on 1,000,000 people to help out during season, once it's over - it's over.

There's no doubt that some seasonal employees will replace some permanent ones - the new broom sweeps the best. But replacing one employee with another is zero sum.

Seasonal jobs - by definition - are not 'temp to hire'.

Your OP is a lie.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Edweird]

68. 120k/30% /"some". It will be much lower than your number.

Florida requires 14 weeks to collect UE.

"The CareerBuilder survey found that 30 percent of employers plan to transition some employees they hire for the holidays into full-time, permanent staff"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2424943&mesg_id=2425910

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[Edweird]

38. Substantiate your bullshit claim or admit it's not true.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Edweird]

65. I know. Their lies excuse RW policy from 'dems' which is bad for the nation and Dem party.

I enjoy exposing their bullshit. I'm angry as hell about the ways things turned out and this gives me an outlet.

[bigtree]

31. .

Turning a seasonal position into a permanent one

Taking a seasonal job can be advantageous for many reasons. It can help fill an employment gap, teach new skills, expand your professional network and, above all else, provide income even if only for a few months. Unfortunately, for many workers a seasonal job is also a missed opportunity. The CareerBuilder survey found that 30 percent of employers plan to transition some employees they hire for the holidays into full-time, permanent staff, yet workers don't always take the necessary steps to turn their temporary job into a full-time one. Even in this highly competitive market, you can stand out from your seasonal co-workers by asserting yourself as the leading candidate for any long-term opportunities


http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/11/04/looking-for-a-permanent-job-consider-starting-with-seasonal-wor/

[Edweird]

39. So less than a third of employers intend to retain 'some'. Overall, what percentage stays on?

Let's see some numbers!

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Yet that paragraph contains the fact that while you might 'stand

out' others who are also humans needing a job will not. Thus, the paragraph says 'work harder than asked and try to get your nose browned asap'.
The point is that even if one 'stands out' via whatever means from beauty to wit to sales power, more will not get the full time work. You type 'turning a seasonal into a permanent' yet that advice is about how to get that which most will not. So for the majority doing the job, it is a temp job. And the permanent gig could go to 'that gal who always calls me gorgeous' or 'the guy who used to work with my cousin' just as easily as it could go to the best employee.

[bigtree]

44. so, initiative is 'brown-nosing'?

and that's how you argue against the notion that seasonal workers can transform their temp jobs into permanent ones? The fact that some folks won't benefit? That seems to go with out saying that not everyone will get a permanent job, but the opportunity is there and the data supports the view that employers are reaching out again.

This is how a recovery looks. It won't happen all at once, and most employers will proceed cautiously with hiring as well, taking in folks in on a part-time, temporary basis until the economy can support a permanent position.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. My point, is that the competition for

the 'permanent' jobs is not done in a clear way. This means that in many workplaces, 'initiative' might not win the day over other factors. If the jobs were meted out only to the best, that would be great. No promise of that. And yes, it is indicative of the brown nose mindset to have as a goal eliminating your co-workers or making sure you are noticed. Not the team, not the department, yourself.
If this thread is about how great these jobs are and 'this is what recovery looks like' then yes, sir, it does matter that part of the information is how to make sure you get the scrap and someone else does not. Recovery means jobs for all who want them, not for those who in whatever way, impress some HR person or more senior worker. When the message is 'show up and start fighting to survive' that is NOT a message of recovery. It is a message of paucity, of lack, of insufficient resources to care for all. If you think that is what recovery is, adults competing to maybe get to do a job they don't want for a longer time, you have set your standards far too low in my opinion.
In some ways, your arguments is up the GOP line- Picking lettuce, McCain said was high paying and wide open. Are you ready to tell your neighbors to become happy migrant pickers, as that's what recovery often looks like, the Joads after all were in a process of recovery. Good enough for them, right? A job is job, right?
Many of the more centrist DUers do not get the point that 'better than nothing' is just that, better than nothing. Candidates, jobs, sure a thing can be better than nothing and still not actually be good.

[bigtree]

55. that's the fall back here when folks disagree, 'you're like the GOP'

Right off, I'll tell you that I have ZERO tolerance for that kind of smear. It's just pure bullshit.

The recovering jobs market will be marked, in the beginning and for a while, by temporary and part-time jobs which will, hopefully, translate into more full-time work. That's the nature of business. I didn't invent it. I just observe it. It's not a republican observation, it's just the way things are. Sorry if you disagree.

And I'm not your fucking centrist . . . Just who do you people think you are throwing these labels around at folks you know absolutely nothing substantial about. There are several labels I have in mind to describe that tendency, but I'll keep them to myself. You might as well move on, because you've picked a fight here and I'm not somebody's bitch waiting to be kicked around on this board.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

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[bigtree]

72. this little gang bullying thing you're doing

that's supposed to be progressive?

unreal.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

76. hey, you're painting it all black

what's wrong with that picture?

[B Calm]

25. So basically you're saying, your employer is your customer!

Been saying that for years. . .

[Bragi]

32. Consumerism is bad for everyone, working people included

I appreciate your personal situation, but I don't accept the notion that we should all go out and buy things because it gives (part-time low paying) jobs to people in retail who need these jobs.

Sorry, doesn't work for me. It reminds me of how slavery was justified by slave owners (and some slaves) because it gave jobs to slaves who, it was argued, would die of starvation but for their generous slavemasters.

Having said that, I do wish you well. I wish you all the best in doing what you have to do to keep afloat, but I would urge you to turn your attention to promoting the kind of economic and political changes needed to benefit working people beyond trying to promote consumerism as though it was a social good. It isn't.

[bigtree]

34. that's just silly, equating this with slavery

we sell food.

'Consumerism' is what we are. We are consumers. We are business owners. Americans like to buy and sell things. That motivation sustains most Americans and helps them to survive and sometimes prosper.

You go out and buy what you think you need and folks in these industries benefit. There's nothing at all wrong with encouraging that. It's not as if that pursuit is somehow stifling any other incentive. The spending actually enhances opportunities for other industries to prosper, like construction.

Our consumerism, especially among our small businesses, is a reciprocal endeavor for most communities they patronize and serve.

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. Yeah, we'll all get paid for sitting in the meadow singing folk songs.

Look around you: everything manmade you see was made by someone and sold to someone and as such added to economic growth.
Period.

If you don't like how good and services are allocated, that is a different matter.

[Bragi]

83. Agreed, I don't like how goods and services are allocated

That includes how they are allocated as between rich and poor members of society, and as between rich and poor countries.

I have nothing against physical stuff, but I do have a problem with building societies based on the principle that everyone needs to consume more and more stuff all the time to keep the economy from collapsing.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Nothing wrong with retail, sounds like it is your career and you

like it. Work is work, man. My jobs were the opposite, the sort where people say 'nice work if you can get it' and the status grows on trees. My view? It was a job, the trappings are distractions, I showed up at 'the plant' and did my part on the line, as it were, just like anyone else. All work that serves others is good work. I got paid way, way more than 'the line' gets paid, yet it is essentially the same relationship with power. To think otherwise just because of larger money is silly and also dangerous to one's health.
Then again, claiming that working in a shop is a dream gig, or that temp seasonal hires are family sustaining jobs is not really honest. I know a few people currently thankful for retail work that keeps them off the streets, yet each of them strives for that which they used to have, none says 'this company is a wonder, and they treat us so well'. They are glad to have rent money. They'd rather have more money and other work. That's just the truth. They find dignity and even joy in the work, yet they would like something else.

[bigtree]

40. no one says they're 'sustaining jobs'

but they are well known to herald an improving jobs market. Part-time and temporary work is going to be the first wave of any jobs recovery. I don't think it's dishonest at all to point out that this economic data supports the notion that temp jobs may well be a leading indicator of a recovering jobs market. That's not my own invention, it's the view of economists who've commented on the unemployment figures.

Now, these short-term jobs may make up our economy for a time until we see real and sustaining growth. I don't see any value at all in parsing the nature of the jobs created right now with such a dire need out there for work. That's not going to change any time soon, so it really makes no sense to be cynical about it. It is what it is.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. In that case, let me offer some rewording.

Your post starts with you speaking of a lifetime in this work. It goes on about how others need to buy so that your company profits and you get a taste. This does not do much to put the focus on 'leading indicators'. The fact that this is your career does seem to imply that you think these temp gigs are potentially sustaining jobs. Also, you should offer some cites for these 'economists' who you are speaking of without citing.
You say 'for a time' after you said '29 years'. It is what it is? Seems it has always been that for you, that is where you wanted to be. It was your job in boom, now in bust. For you, the status is quo.
I see your post here as cynical as hell. So it is odd that you speak of cynicism while also lecturing others to be happy with that which you always wanted and they never did.
Important question: what other incomes make up your household income? I have one friend who loves retail, on commission, her husband makes tons of money in another field.

[bigtree]

52. why not just go with what I wrote instead of reinterpreting it?

Retail depends on spending. It's a living for many folks out here. It is my career.

I don't think temp jobs are 'sustaining' and I haven't said anything of the sort. The fact is, the increase in these jobs are seen by economists as a leading indicator of a recovering job market. They are the first to go and the first to re-appear when things start looking up. That's the long and short of my view on that.

And how hard is it for you to do some research on your own? It isn't hard. Just search 'seasonal workers permanent jobs' in several different forms. You'll find that there are reams of pages discussing this. I did endeavor to put some more anecdotal evidence of companies which retain seasonal and temp workers, so you should go to those. I'm frankly exhausted proving this obvious point.

And, I'm the major source of income. My hours, though have gone down in the past years and are steady at about 35+ overtime. I'm a union worker, so I have a good wage.

I do feel that you've taken me far off of the point of my post which was to try and bring a little perspective to the discussion over employment. The point can't be translated into a defense of every notion you might have, but I think it makes its own simple point that there are many folks who find the work sustaining and productive. The rest is beginning to get way far off my original point.

[Wait Wut]

46. Thanks for the hope.

Seriously. With all the negativity, it's great to hear from someone that knows the ropes. I've known several people in my life that have worked seasonal or temp jobs that have turned into full-time. Two of them, in the past year, not only were made full-time employees, but were promoted to management. One of those was for a large charitable organization which just makes it even more awesome. No, she doesn't make a lot of money, but she's not about that. She's in love with what she does and is great at it.

Turning your nose up at a part-time, seasonal or temp job because you "can't make enough to survive" is shooting yourself in the foot. Hell, volunteer work can be a great networking option and could possibly land you a "real" job that not only pays the bills, but will give you a job you'll feel good about.

To all retail and service workers, thank you. I couldn't do it. I hate people. ;)

[TBF]

48. We all do what we have to day to day to survive -

and work behind the scenes to get rid of this blasted system.

[WolverineDG]

50. In the rush to judgment, they've forgotten what "Black Friday" really means

it's the one day that can push a retailer from showing a loss to showing a profit for the ENTIRE year. If they make enough money (oh damn them all to hell for wanting to show a profit!), they can keep some or all of their seasonal hires.

Why this very simple concept is hard to grasp is beyond me, unless you get more street cred wailing & gnashing your teeth at the thought that someone will have to work a holiday :gasp: or show up at 11 pm on Thanksgiving to get the store ready to open at midnight. For all the moaning & groaning over the Target employees having to do that, I didn't hear one peep about all the places that were open on Turkey Day itself, like restaurants & hotels. Surely people didn't *NEED* to eat out or check in on Thanksgiving.

dg

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[MadHound]

54. The simple fact is, you can't have a healthy economy, or country,

Built around the service sector. Having cashiers ring up burger flippers who feed bank tellers who take the meager savings of cashiers. This is an economic reality, and sadly, a hard lesson that has had to be learned in country after country, empire after empire. The British, Dutch, and Spanish, among others, have hard to learn this hard lesson in the past, I would prefer that we learn by their example rather than trying to find out for ourselves.

A service sector economy leads to lower wages for all, economic instability, and eventually a massive crash. You have got to have a healthy, vibrant manufacturing sector to support your economy and your country. If you don't, it all collapses.

There are plenty of ways for us to rebuild a healthy manufacturing sector, from green initiatives to infrastructure work, to the tech sector. But we have to be aggressive and start looking out for the needs of this country, this economy first rather than our continued participation in globalization.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[varelse]

58. We cannot spend what we don't have

You have to be earning to spend.

[treestar]

60. When the economy is good, part time work is an option

For some it would be what they want, and convenient.

So it's not an evil of itself. Only when there are people who want full time work doing it because that is all they can get.

[JNelson6563]

78. As my late, much missed Dad would say

There is absolutely nothing wrong with honest work.

:toast:

[Response]

79. He was right, but there is something disingenuous about labeling

spotty news as great for the future of the country.

[Response]

80. He was right, but there is something disingenuous about labeling

spotty news as great for the future of the country.