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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 09:53 PM
Original message
Wes Clark and the neocon dream
In October, 2007, Gen. Wesley Clark gave a speech to the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco (seven-minute excerpt in the video below) in which he denounced what he called a policy coup engineered by neocons in the wake of 9/11. After recounting how a Pentagon source had told him weeks after 9/11 of the Pentagons plan to attack Iraq notwithstanding its non-involvement in 9/11, this is how Clark described the aspirations of the coup being plotted by Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and what he called a half dozen other collaborators from the Project for the New American Century:

Six weeks later, I saw the same officer, and asked: Why havent we attacked Iraq? Are we still going to attack Iraq?

He said: Sir, its worse than that. He said he pulled up a piece of paper off his desk he said: I just got this memo from the Secretary of Defenses office. It says were going to attack and destroy the governments in 7 countries in five years were going to start with Iraq, and then were going to move to Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran.

Clark said the aim of this plot was this: They wanted us to destabilize the Middle East, turn it upside down, make it under our control. He then recounted a conversation he had had ten years earlier with Paul Wolfowitz back in 1991 in which the then-number-3-Pentagon-official, after criticizing Bush 41 for not toppling Saddam, told Clark: But one thing we did learn is that we can use our military in the region in the Middle East and the Soviets wont stop us. And weve got about 5 or 10 years to clean up those old Soviet regimes Syria, Iran , Iraq before the next great superpower comes on to challenge us. Clark said he was shocked by Wolfowitzs desires because, as Clark put it: the purpose of the military is to start wars and change governments? Its not to deter conflicts?

. . .

The difference between seven and four overt wars isnt non-existent or unimportant, of course, but its a question of means. The neocon end as Clark reported them regime change in those seven countries seems as vibrant as ever. Its just striking to listen to Clark describe those 7 countries in which the neocons plotted to have regime change back in 2001, and then compare that to what the U.S. Government did and continues to do since then with regard to those precise countries.


http://www.salon.com/2011/11/26/wes_clark_and_the_neoco...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Except, the neocons did not get to finish their
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 10:01 PM by tabatha
invasions of those countries, because Iraqis did not lie down and play nice. They revolted so much that Iraq became one expensive mess. I think, as I said at the time, the rest of the MENA countries should be grateful to the insurgents and the entire world, in making Bush and his cohorts fail in Iraq. And it was such a big failure, that the term "Iraqification" is often used by people in MENA who want to avoid any repeats.

And it also made many in the US, e.g. Bob Gates, declare that the US should never ever get involved in those countries ever again.
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The Neocons are still working on it.
Right now.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Which neocons and what are they doing?
What evidence do you have?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. See
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Libya: Check. Iran : They're working on it right now
Chilling
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Iran will not be invaded.
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 10:29 PM by tabatha
Libya was not invaded. Libya *** ASKED *** for a no-fly zone.

I guess the neocons got the Tunisian worker to set himself on fire, and the women in Libya to lead the protests.

Please do not be a neocon and see everything as the same.
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. We did not help the Tunisians overthrow their dictator .
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 10:41 PM by Vanje
We did not help the Egyptians kick out their despot....(oh wait. Biden assured us that his pal "Resident" Mubarak was not a dictator.)

We did Jack for Egypt and Tunisia because they weren't on Wolfowitz's list.

"Destroy the governments" was the wording Wes Clark used. Invasion is only one way to do that.


I am not a Neocon, or as we call them today , NeoLiberal.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Neo Liberalism era began before and during Kennedy's administration
Neo-Conservatism is essentially the same thing, Neo-Liberalism used so called "soft power" (not) and well we all learned what the Neo-Cons are about these past 10 years. goals are always the same though. Geo-political and Economic dominance. Apparently, religious as well.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The Libyan people were inspired by Tunisia and Egypt
and they were sick of a dictator of 42 years. They were prepared to die for their freedom.

If you want to make comparions

a) Ben Ali head STEPPED down.
b) Muburak STEPPED down.
c) Gaddafi did NOT step down. There were plenty of negotiations by different people, but Gaddafi refused to STEP down.

If the Libyan uprising had not happened - Gaddafi was going to send in 30,000 mercenaries to put down the uprising in Tunisia. He was very unhappy with what was happening in Tunisia and Egypt.

At first, if you remember, the Libyans did NOT want any help at all. They were going to do it by themselves. They managed to get all the way to outside Brega (I think) until Gaddafi chased them all the way back to Benghazi.

Then the Libyans asked for help. They begged for help. They were about to be slaughtered in the thousands.

Nothing like that happened in Egypt or Tunisia - the heads stepped down.

And so, what has happened in Egypt - they still do not have the freedom the Libyans have even though they started before Libya.

Please try a little logic and reference to the facts.

PLEASE, PLEASE HELP US - from Mo Nabbous, in case you missed it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-FrrJP55fU&feature=rela...


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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Huh?
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. important history that needs to periodically be retold.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. History has to be understood, not confused.
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 11:58 PM by tabatha
Obama is not a neocon. Samantha Power is not a neocon. Susan Rice is not a necon.

Just because Iraq was invaded without them asking, does not mean Libya, who asked for help, is the same.

I am sure if you asked Wesley Clark if Libya was the same as Iraq he would say no.

-----

Retired Army General Wesley Clark says it's beneficial to the U.S. that France is taking the lead.

U.S. military are expected to play a supporting role while foreign air forces are to carry out much of the attacks. It is a move General Wesley Clark calls smart, keeping President Obama from a direct faceoff.

General Clark says everyone involved is giving Gadhafi a chance to come forward, rather than fighting to the finish.

General Clark in his own words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXB75IK6pL4

-----
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Just keep a watch on Wolfowitz's list, as the Obama terms continue
Iraq
Syria
Lebanon
Libya
Somalia
Sudan
Iran
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. So I guess Wolfowitz or Obama
Edited on Sun Nov-27-11 12:06 AM by tabatha
is directing the Syrians to revolt and die.

Good grief - your logic is totally crewed up.

Sudan has just split into two parts, in large part thanks to Gaddafi, and southern Sudan has had elections (or did you not know that?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Sudanese_independ...

Iran will not be invaded.

Somalia????
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. see
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm not sure what you're responding to, The talk was given in 2007.. Bush/Cheney
what transpired in 1991, 2001, 2002,2003 and on, isn't about Samantha Powers, or even Obama except they're continuing Neo Con's agenda.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Obama is NOT continuing the neocon agenda.
NATO under United Nations permission, helped Libya.

Obama did not want to interfere in Libya at all, until Gaddafi said he would hunt Libyans down ... house to house, etc.

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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Huh? He's doing that on steroids. Drone attacks in Yeman, Pakistan, Affhanistan, saber rattling on
Iran.. it's like nothing has changed except escalated. are you kidding?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. He stated when he was running for president that
he would attack inside Pakistan and ramp up in Afghanistan, in order to eventually get troops out, as he has done in Iraq.

I did not know Yemen was on the necocon's list.

Yemen will soon be liberated (overseen by the Arabs), and hopefully those issues will go away.

He has NOT saber rattled on Iran. Please provide a link, otherwise stick to the facts.
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