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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 12:56 PM
Original message
Why Guy Fawkes?
The American idolizing of Guy Fawkes that started with the movie "V for Vendetta" is really starting to annoy me. Sure, that's what we want to do: Blow up the president and both houses of Congress, create anarchy, and institute a theocracy.

I enjoyed the movie, but it was as silly as the absurd "Gladiator", which depicted Marcus Aurelius as a hero of democracy.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Take care of talking
sense.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
61. All: Isn't it ironic that the OP, in criticizing left for appropriating symbols, has an "A" avatar?
Talk about inappropriate cribbing off of a political movement he detests.

And yes, I know what his version of the "A" stands for, it's irrelevant to the discussion.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's just a symbol, not a manifesto.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes, I was just going to say that symbols are rarely perfect
through and through.

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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why do you hate bonfires?
:P

:hide:
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Not only that, but he was a minor figure in the plot stupid enough to be caught when others were not
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think it's less what he stood for than what he stood against.
I think he's a very scary figure for tyrannical governments as he shows what a dedicated citizen or two could possibly do given the chance.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. He stood against allowing Protestants freedom to worship in England (nt)
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
46. But Guy Fawkes is the moral equivalent of Tim McVeigh
He thought he was fighting tyranny too. Fighting should be a last resort and it should be based on --

* what are you fighting against?

* what are you fighting for?

* how will you fight?

* when will you stop fighting?

Fawkes and McVeigh failed on all of those accounts, no matter how many lies they told themsevles to justify their acts.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
50. Fawkes was not exactly a civil libertarian. (nt)
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Because big-budget Warner Brothers films are as close to art as most people are
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 01:07 PM by Codeine
are capable of understanding these days. We'll take our political symbols licensed from a film company and mass-produced in Chinese factories, thanks.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
60. V For Vendetta is a Graphic Novel, not a Warner Brothers movie.
The author, a famous novelist who is on the Time Magazine best books of the 20th Century, wants nothing to do with the film version.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Yes, as a comics fan I am well aware of that,
Edited on Wed Nov-02-11 09:38 AM by Codeine
but the vast majority of V fans have never read Alan Moore's work, but they've all watched the film.
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Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Fawkes is a symbol of one person standing against the system.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. even though his purpose was to restore the power of the multinational Catholic church
in Britain. Fawkes was not just 'one person'; he was an agent for a foreign power.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. Never mind that the government of Fawkes time forbade Catholics
holding any office, and Catholics were second-class citizens. A person could be arrested for simply being a Catholic, under the charge he was an agent of a foreign power if he got someone pissed at him - he didn't have to try to blow up Parliament.

That is why we have separation of church and state - the founders were well aware of the religious civil wars in England where believers on either side believed they were the chosen ones.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. The point is that, for freedom of religion, he was no better than those he wanted to kill
and he was willing to kill a lot of people for his cause. It's not that he was an awful person with purely innocent enemies; it's just that he makes a crap symbol for 'the individual against the system'.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. No one says he was for freedom of religion - he was just a pissed off guy.
The movie, however, expropriated the image of the pissed off guy and gave it a deeper meaning.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. But he wasn't doing that
He was standing up against a country going its own way and allowing its citizens some freedom of religion.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Not if they were Catholic. n/t
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Because we are secretly anarchist-theocrats, even though that is a contradiction. nt
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ChandlerJr Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Because he had the coolest mask
It's the optics. Most people in this country can't be bothered with the real story. Almost as strange as showing up with teabags on your hat.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. who else ya got? We'd look pretty goofy in Ben Franklin masks?
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 01:12 PM by NightWatcher
but the idea to use anarchy as a means to clean house is a better idea to some than just elect a few slightly diferent politicians who promise change but dont deliver. Break the whole damn system, then replace it with real people powered poltics.



Plus the site of hundreds or thousands of people in masks scares the shit out of the power structure.


(on edit:) I'm a fan of masks
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Wat Tyler
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Goofy masks would be cool though.
.
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
63. John Brown.


American Badass since 1800. Worst case scenario, the moron teabaggers are confused as to why we're all dressing up as Moses.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. do you also complain about Robin Hood, Saint Nicholas, Jesus?
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. If it's appropriate to do so, yes.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. Way to miss a point.
nt

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Courtesy Flush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. A bit of trivia
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 01:33 PM by Courtesy Flush
The reason we call ourselves "guys" today is because of Fawkes. He became a folk hero, and schoolchildren used to dress up as him. "Guy" came to mean a shabbily-dressed man (because of how he was portrayed by kids), and later, it was used to mean any man.
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. "He became a folk hero"
Is that why they burn "guys" every November 5th?
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Courtesy Flush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Maybe "anti-hero" is the word I needed. nt
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. That's apt.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. I believe...
...that the representation has more to do with burning Catholics than burning Guy Fawkes. That's a fairly nasty tradition.
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. That's probably true.
On bonfire night they were prone to burning effigies of the pope, as well.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. He didn't become a folk hero
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 02:50 PM by Spider Jerusalem
children made effigies with rags and straw and cast-off clothing and went around begging a "penny for the guy". Then they burnt those effigies on bonfires on the anniversary of the Gunpowder Plot, 5 November. Still do. Come a few days from now, all over Britain, there'll be kids burning a Catholic in effigy and setting off fireworks.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. Its a symbol, a symbol of people finding the courage to stand up
There are probably symbols that you are okay with that I find offensive. That's the thing about humans, we each have our own opinions.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
22. Because people have seen "V" and understood its story
whereby they haven't studied Fawkes.
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Greybnk48 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
23. Ooooooh! I like it even more now. Remember how the
Brits sang the song "Yankee Doodle" that was originally mocking Americans. Then we took it as our own and rammed it down their fucking throats! Remember that? It's a symbol. It hasn't anything to do with Guy Fawkes' original motive or Warner Bros. The movie hit a chord with people during the horror that was the Bush years and it has taken on a meaning of its own.

I just changed my avatar.
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RevStPatrick Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. I did too...
At least for the next week or so.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. I imagine one may stretch any analogy
"Blow up the president and both houses of Congress, create anarchy, and institute a theocracy..."

I imagine one may stretch any analogy to the point in which it appears to mean the opposite of its actual agenda.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
27. It would appear you enjoyed the movie without understanding it.
V for Vendetta is not a celebration of Guy Fawkes. It is a story of a man who wore a Guy Fawkes mask, who did NOT blow up "the president and both houses of Congress, create anarchy, and institute a theocracy" but destroyed an edifice (which was evacuated) which had become a symbol of a theocracy.

You got it all ass-backwards.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. +1. People wear the Guy Fawkes mask because of the character in the movie.
One of the best movies of the past 10 years, IMO.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. Because sometimes the system is so corrupt...
...that the simplest solution is to just wipe the whole thing out and start over. It's the idea that the system is no longer capable of being fixed from within, and that only an external force can apply the changes needed. Fawkes is a representation of that ideal. He's a guy who tried to "blow the whole thing up" so they could start over.

I think the OWS thing is rather pointless overall, but I happen to agree with that assessment. Our system is irreparably broken, and I don't know what the fix is.

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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
32. As was mentioned earlier, because it is a cool mask. eom
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. In 'V For Vendetta' the character V wears a Guy Fawkes mask
because he is lighting fires on Fawkes Night. Fawkes is not a character in the film, his story is not told in the film. The character V does not do any of the things you claim he does, not at all. The character V uses the holiday of bonfires and masks for his own day of action.
If you saw the film, you would know that the film does not depict Guy Fawkes at all. It is a work of futurist fiction, not a piece of history. Gladiator was posing as history, and actually depicted Aurelius, V For Vendetta did not depict any historical figures at all.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. And it's a symbol that the movie completely watered down
from the graphic novel. Which is why Moore distanced himself from the film. The film took a British look at anarchy and anti-government and turned it into a "we hate Republicans" movie.

Yeah, I'm bitter about what they did to the graphic novel.
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hugo_from_TN Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. He is the epitomy of a failure.
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
42. Why are all those people wearing Patrick Stewart masks?
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. He said "Make it so".
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. lurk moar
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
48. 8 Historic Symbols That Mean The Opposite of What You Think
Despite anarchists' general failure to unite long enough to make any meaningful progress against their ideological enemies (democracy, capitalism, communism and Internet forum moderationism), they do have a few running themes and symbols in common. One of the most prominent symbols is the 17th century English revolutionary, Guy Fawkes, whose famed exploit was his attempt to blow up Parliament in order to destabilize the British government.

...
While anarchists may be right that Fawkes was the only person ever to enter Parliament with honest intentions, they've forgotten what those intentions were. Fawkes wasn't trying to destroy an evil theocracy, he was trying to install one.


http://www.cracked.com/article_18606_8-historic-symbols-that-mean-opposite-what-you-think.html
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Riftaxe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
49. Are you doubting those conformists who choose
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 05:36 PM by Riftaxe
to imitate a movie by a large corporation, in the name of individuality?

They are merely victims of mass marketing, I believe PT Barnum had an apropos quote which applies to the Fawkes folks.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #49
64. And yet you claim to be educated than they are, yet you DON'T know V is a famous novel by Alan Moore
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. Oh, but of course it's a graphic novel
Those aren't worth discussing, only the movie version which came out 20 years after the influential book, right?
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Riftaxe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. That mask is not designed by moore and
Edited on Wed Nov-02-11 06:22 PM by Riftaxe
is produced by a corporation that buys the rights for the image from another corporation, so people can parade around in it.

We are talking about the mask made famous by Warner Bros...

How else would you even identify the people in question as Fawkes Folks?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
51. Umm...Gladiator was about revenge.
Democracy? Wow you are really grasping at straws!
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
52. Anonymous took the movie V as a symbol
Because in the movie, V takes on a government very much like ours and inspires the people to rise up against that government.

It's a story that appealed to a lot of people and its symbols became a part of their group culture. That happens sometimes, in human society. Sorry it gets up your ass.
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Huey P. Long Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Really. I think the fact it bugs people so much, and generally those who
like to find something to complain about, I think I like it even more.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. So you think a fascist theocracy is 'vey much like' the Oabma administration?
I'm sorry you hate Democrats so much. Or is it that you've forgotten what the movie was about (ie a fascist theocratic government), and are blinded by Anonymous using a mask, and are unwilling to consider that maybe they fucked up their analogy a bit?
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Huey P. Long Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
53. This question resurfacing again?
I'll support the people out in the rain and cold. They wear V masks. Its Anon's calling card. They've been vital to the protest.
People who find fault and complain? Not so much.
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. as absurd as erecting a statue of Mel Gibson in Scotland?
I enjoyed the movie, but it was as silly as the absurd "Gladiator", which depicted Marcus Aurelius as a hero of democracy.

Another example of confusing fiction with history...

After repairs were made, the statue was encased in a cage every night to prevent further vandalism. This only incited more calls for the statue to be removed as it then appeared that the Gibson/Wallace figure was imprisoned. The statue was described as "among the most loathed pieces of public art in Scotland."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braveheart#Wallace_Monument
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
57. Why not? Symbols do change you know
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
58. The name doesn't matter. The symbol does.
The character in the movie and graphic novel are what I think of when I see that mask--not Guy Fawkes.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
59. Don't think it's actually got much to do with Guy Fawkes at this point. V & Anonymous, more like.

Symbols evolve. And the fact that the mask is irritating & vaguely creepy are nice bonuses.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
67. why is the sky blue?
Edited on Wed Nov-02-11 06:23 PM by fascisthunter
...does it scare you.... buhahahahaahahhahaaha!
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