Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Myths of the Gaddafi regime Explained

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:10 PM
Original message
Myths of the Gaddafi regime Explained
Edited on Mon Oct-24-11 10:14 PM by tabatha
While there are no excuses for the way Gaddafi was treated in the videos posted publicly, we want to stress that those who have done this were not acting on behalf of the NTC nor the interim government. They were fighters who were swept in a moment of intense fighting, and after 8 long months of defending themselves, having lost friends and family. A full investigation of the circumstances of what happened has been officially launched and we hope its findings will be made public as soon as possible. Those acts don't represent the majority of Libyans and don't represent Islamic or Libyan traditional values.

There are a lot of people defending Muammer Gaddafi and his regime by stating living conditions and infrastructure in Libya was world class, and all the people in the country enjoyed unimaginable wealth. This is not true. The Gaddafi regime was rife with corruption and deception. Who you know was more important than who you were as a person, with many basic services being only available to the highest bidders.

Below, Nizar Mhani (Niz Ben-Essa) of the Free Generation Movement responds to common misconceptions relating to the Gaddafi regime ...

There are no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
Categorically untrue. Despite poor electricity infrastructure and poor coverage of electricity lines, even in the Capital, Libyan home owners pay monthly/quarterly (area dependant) electricity bills based on meter readings. Electricity is cut off in instances of unpaid bills. Reconnection upon payment is not instant. The electric infrastructure is weak and some areas of Libya do not have electricity available at all.

There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
Categorically untrue. Banks all over Libya have been giving out loans for years and years. There is a percentage rate charge on all loans, which is comparable to an interest rate, but in the spirit of islamic ethics it is not called interest, it is called an Administrative Expense Masareef Edareeya.

A House is considered a human right in Libya Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafis father has died while he, his wife and his mother are still living in a tent.
Gaddafi abused this human right as much as he did other basic rights. It is well known in Libya that political opponents and successful business men/women had their homes confiscated and handed over to regime members, usually rewards for Free Officers Dubat A7rar. Many farms and homes and businesses were confiscated during three infamous phases of Libyas dictatorial history:

1969 The dreaded Green Revolution. Free Officers were rewarded land, homes, and farms that sometimes belonged to other people and the original owners were not compensated or asked if this was ok.

Late 70s - The introduction of the law Albayt le Sakinehee The Home Belongs to its Dwellers. As this law was passed overnight, thousands of homeowners instantly lost their homes, as tenants (those renting the homes) claimed ownership on account of being the dwellers. The law applied to homes, farms, shops, etc.

90s - The introduction of Purification Committees (Lejnat al Tatheer). This committee ran by the widely know slogan, Min ayna laka hada? From where did you obtain this?, a form of ultra-socialism where peoples possessions, including homes and businesses, were confiscated if seen to be surplus to requirement or contributing to a monopoly.

Regarding Gaddafis vow: While Gaddafi waited for everyone in Libya to be housed, he himself lived in a sprawling 6km square compound in the centre of the capital which was home to state of the art security and an underground network of rooms and ultramodern bunkers. He also had a vast and well known farm on Airport Road in Tripoli. This, just in the capital.

All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
This is a well known rumour and a common joke in Libya. Whilst it may have been passed as official legislation, I know of not a single family who has been given this grant. The backbreaking bureaucracy associated with such grants and loans make them more or less impossible to obtain.

Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.
Education and Health Care Free does not mean adequate. It is well known that Libyas standard of health care is nothing short of appalling. It is widely known that the majority of Libyans seeking medical care leave for neighbouring countries for treatment. Our Education system is no better. It is outdated, teachers are underpaid and under-trained and libraries are largely non-existent. The syllabus was constantly being revised and reviewed under direct instruction from the former regime e.g. banning English, changing Quranic verses, etc.

It is commonly said that Libyans would be happy to forfeit their free health care and pay for a National Health Service if it was up to the required standard.

Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and Livestock to kick- start their farms all for free.
This has never happened, in addition to this many farms and homes have been confiscated by the government to build civil roads,

The Great Man Made River and civil roads.
The owners of the land were only compensated if there was a covered structure on the land as the Gaddafi regime legally owned any land and the people were only allowed to build on it. When there was compensation offered it was nowhere near the actual value of the property and many waited years to receive anything if at all. This system was also rife with corruption many residents told they had to pay a bribe to receive what little they were given.

If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it not only free but they get $2, 300/month accommodation and car allowance.
Categorically untrue. If this was the case, the former regime would have been in receipt of 6 million application forms one for every man, women and child who cannot find education or medical facilities they need. This grant does not exist for the mainstream public. There is anectdotal evidence of some medical grants being given but again, the system was corrupt and opaque.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/libya-outreach-group/myt...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is an excellent summation of the realities of life in Libya.
I mean, really--if life were as wonderful as people surmised, what would be the motivation to take to the streets? You've got to figure that when office workers, engineers, construction workers, farmers, clerks, shopkeepers and other working class types, young and old, take up arms and vow to fight to the death--even though they lack military skills and equipment--they're pretty pissed off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Speech was given to man to disguise his thoughts." - Voltaire
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kick only because there were FIVE different spellings of that guy's name on the Greatest page...
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Count your blessings...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. There are dozens of variations...
The US State Department goes with "Qadhafi." The Associated Press, CNN, and MSNBC spell it "Gadhafi." Reuters and the BBC opt for "Gaddafi." At the Los Angeles Times, it's "Kadafi," and the New York Times spells it "Qaddafi." For what it's worth, that last version is also the Monitor's preferred spelling (though, like other news outlets, we could be doing a better job of sticking to it consistently.)

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/editors-blog/2009/0...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. At least the NYT et all have standards. I saw THREE different versions on one page this morning...
...in the San Diego Union-Tribune.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. delete
Edited on Mon Oct-24-11 10:51 PM by tabatha
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Rent was free ... in the torture prisons
So at least one of those myths was true, for a the portion of the population imprisoned and tortured.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R - nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. And the source for this is... Facebook?
wow i hope this doesn't become a trend. unrec for shitty source.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. It's been posted several times on DU.
The internet is a series of tubes. x(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
court jester Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. +1 facebook admits to tracking "users" even when they're not on facebook
and there was no real outcry, Suckerberg is richer today than when the news broke.

creepy

It would be nice if there were some links that don't require a log in.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Is BBC good enough for you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. So if I said
black is white, and that statement is not on FB, you would believe it
and if I said
white is white, and that statement is on FB, you would not believe it

very sad
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Wow is this really that hard for yall to understand? Facebook is not a news source
Edited on Mon Oct-24-11 11:55 PM by slay
period. i'm not saying it's not true - it's just a shitty source to cite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. If the guy who wrote it
Edited on Tue Oct-25-11 12:22 AM by tabatha
and he was featured in news stories by the BBC, the Guardian and the CM, only writes in on FB, what else can I do.

The guy is legit - a Libyan doctor who has worked in Cardiff, Wales for 10 years, and he happens to write his pieces on Facebook.

And this article was not a news items - it was an opinion piece by a Libyan who knew what he was talking about.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Does that mean you promise not to cite any blogs, like FireDogLake?
After all, blogs have no more sourcing than a note written on Facebook.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
28. This would not be difficult to debunk if it were not true. These are common day-to-day observations.
Either they are true or not regardless of whether posted on Facebook or anywhere else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. The author of this article has been featured in several newspapers
about what he did in Tripoli to aid the Freedom Fighters.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1021/Ho... /(page)/4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14734049

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindi...

He is a Libyan dentist who has worked in Cardiff, Wales for many years. He is one of the most well respected members of the uprising.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kicked and recommended.
It's sad how many people are willing to believe pro-dictator propaganda over the personal testimonies of people who were there. If for no other reason than the knee-jerk belief that if the US government is doing something, it must be evil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. I suppose all the people who are celebrating and all the resistence fighters
who died are just ingrates and their opinions count for nothing. It's effing unbelievable that people have bought into pro-gadaffi propaganda.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
34. Why would someone think that?
It couldn't possibly be due to watching the US government do evil shit for decades, could it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. More likely due to personal biases and predispositions...
Edited on Tue Oct-25-11 10:37 AM by LanternWaste
More likely due to personal biases and predispositions to believe any source which validates, and dismiss any source which does not, then citing a trendy cynicism to make it all seem, well... trendy and cynical, rather than America's "evil shit", I would think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. Some Highlighted Qaddaf's Crimes Against Humanity
Edited on Mon Oct-24-11 11:17 PM by Paulas
Muammar Gaddafi
(Al-Gadhafi, Qaddafi)
(Mu'ammar Al-Qaddafi)

Highlights of the racist Arab, Islamic fascist, butcher and brutal dictator: Muammar Gadhafi:

1) Planting the seeds in the 1970s for the recent genocide in the Sudan. Involved in the bloody violence there, early on.<1> His (pan-Arabism) 'racist,' 'fascist' influence on Al-Bashir and co., who brought the genocide upon non-Muslims first (pan-Islamism), then on non-Arabs in Sudan.<2> <3> In the 1980s, waving the banner of the "Arab Gathering" (Al tajammu al-arabi) - a "militantly racist and pan-Arabist organization."<4> Evoking 1930s fascistic Arab supremacy,<5> and Arab superiority.<6> <7> He's also known to be the biggest importer of black children slaves from the slave markets of Khartoum, Sudan.<8> The Arab Republic is a known source for Sudanese slaves, mostly women and children, who have been captured in the course of that country's civil war.<9>



2) Allied with the butcher of Uganda, culminating into strong fanatic 'Islamic' ties (Gadhafi himself a fanatical Muslim.<10> <11> Indeed, at the opening of 'Idi Amin's Dream Mosque, named after Qaddafi, the crowds chanted "long live Gaddafi")<12>. Influencing anti-Jewish bigotry on the Ugandan leader.<13>



3) Epitomizing his dictatorship and character, the 17 April 1984 shooting at 11 people and killing British policewoman Yvonne Fletcher amid a protest against his brutal regime.<14>, which he "apologized" for, at the end.<15>



4) Terrorism, the 1986 bombing of the La Belle Cafe in Berlin, Germany, the 1988 massacre - bombing of Pan-Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland (270 killed), which he personally ordered to,<16> and the 1989 downing of a French aircraft UTA Flight 772 (170 killed).<17> <18> <19> <20>
In February 1985, Qaddafi called on Black servicemen in the US Army to leave the military, create their own army, and fight "your racist oppressors." Three months later, infamous anti-white racist <21>: L. Farrakhan of the "Nation of Islam" received $5 Billion dollars interest-free loan from Libya.<22> Farrakhan-Gadhafi alliance grew.<23> <24> In fact, it is common knowledge that the Nation of Islam receives considerable financial assistance from Sudan and Libya.<25>
In an October 4, 2003 speech, as he spoke of Libya's work for the pan-Arab cause, accused the Arab countries of ingratitude, he said that women should be trained to carry out suicide operations in Baghdad and in Gaza.<26>



5) In 1987 Qaddafi was accused by Chad's President H. Habre of "bringing a truly racist crusade against Chad and Africa."<27>



6) In 1998, the UN spoke out against Libya's Racial Discrimination.<28> In 2000 there was a serious upsurge in anti-African racist violent attacks in the Libyan Arab Republic. Thousands have fled.<29> <30> Still, today, Millions of blacks are treated with harsh racial discrimination (Arab Apartheid). They are referred to as "animals" and as "slaves."<31> <32> <33>



7) Showing his true racist<34> colors against both: blacks, and "white Christians," he was "worried" of "Black Europe" and urged EU cash to stop African migrants. He said: "We don't know what will happen, what will be the reaction of the white and Christian Europeans faced with this influx of starving and ignorant Africans...We don't know if Europe will remain an advanced and united continent or if it will be destroyed, as happened with the barbarian invasions."<35>



8) The hypocritical chairing of the infamous anti-Israel bigoted so-called "anti-racism" conference, in Durban (2), 2010.<36>



9) In February 2010, he urged 'holy war' against Switzerland.<37>



10) The massacres on thousands of his own people (using mass violence, arms and jet fighters on masses of civilian protesters). He's accused of genocide (2011).<38> <39> <40>



1.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=IoF4_7Aq9McC&pg=PA31
2.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=CZtnAbKkOmIC&pg=PA120
3.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=_OzBMl-gW2oC&pg=PA44
4.^ http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/occasional/Lemarchand...
5.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=_OzBMl-gW2oC&pg=PA206
6.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=1g1XkMxXiZEC&pg=PA3
7.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=IoF4_7Aq9McC&pg=PA31
8.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=65cpHa0uL7wC&q=coups
9.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=PaBddjB2BYIC&pg=PA142
10.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=9wHNrF7nFecC&pg=PA515
11.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=YOUEAQAAIAAJ&q=fanatic
12.^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7305641.stm
13.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=iNERGngsUOAC&pg=PA253
14.^ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1225963/Gaddafi...
15.^ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/7964360/W...
16.^ http://abcnews.go.com/International/libya-justice-minis...
17.^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3163621.stm
18.^ http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/23/3146577.h...
19.^ http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/12/terror/main57...
20.^ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/gaddafi-...
21.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=yKrrSa7WqNwC&pg=PA227
22.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=rS_DF_x7AIMC&pg=PA16
23.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=kYc7jDNIop0C&pg=PA138
24.^ http://books.google.com/books?&id=mM5AAQAAIAAJ&dq=hoppe...
25.^ http://books.google.com/books?id=SAs9Ch9iyRQC&pg=PA161
26.^ http://www.memritv.org/report/en/print969.htm
27.^ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEED8...
28.^ http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/8a5d55b605793ac78025...
29.^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/debates/africa...
30.^ http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/32/045.html
31.^ http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/world/africa/23libya....
32.^ http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=...
33.^ http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/02/24/is-al-jazeera...
34.^ http://www.salem-news.com/articles/february212011/spiri...
35.^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11139345
36.^ http://www.unwatch.org/cms.asp?id=730172&campaign_id=63...
37.^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8537925.stm
38.^ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindi...
39.^ http://www.jpost.com/SpecialSection/Article.aspx?id=209...
40.^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12576598

-
Based on:
www.danielpipes.org/comments/182966
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, but the anti-Muslim views of the author you cite are well known
Pipes also has insisted that President Obama is "a former Muslim."

His background and the citicisim of him are summarized at Wiki.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. There are lots of sources other than Pipes in that post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Originally it said only, 'Based on:' with the single Pipes link
The other links were added on edit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. "anti-Muslim"??? - Pipes is criticising "all" Muslims?
Or only radicals? And Wiki is NOT my primary source.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Welcome to DU.
And thanks for your input.

Here is probably the last of the threads about Libya on which we have been posting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Danel Pipes is utterly vile in his extremism,
and not what most of us would use as a unbiased source of anything here.

http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Pipes_Daniel

Which is not to discredit the rest of your links or to credit them, either way, (not having gone through them).

Anyway, welcome to DU - but just hope you will research who he is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. Anecdotally,
Edited on Mon Oct-24-11 11:39 PM by moondust
I (oddly) noticed on TV that almost nobody in the crowds on the streets of Libya was wearing eyeglasses. I didn't know what to make of it. Contact lenses? Little access to eye doctors? Too poor? Illiteracy? Maybe my sample was too small?

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I'll try to find out, tomorrow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Thank you!
But don't feel obligated in any way to satisfy my curiosity. :) I just didn't know if that was a visible sign of socioeconomic conditions or not.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. This is what a Libyan replied
"hello - i dont know whats behind that, eyeglasses are common, my brother, mother other relatives wear them. contact lenses are there; both cosmetic and medical. there are sunglass shops on every corner. even lasik surgery is available at private clinics; so im not sure what thats all about."

I guess that if they are not wearing them, they don't need them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Maybe because the protesters on the streets are younger?
And less likely to need eyeglasses?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Lasik? Cosmetic contact lenses?
That's interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. Thanks.
Edited on Wed Oct-26-11 03:47 PM by moondust
I must have seen some crowds of younger folks whose eyes haven't gone bad yet or something. Glad it's not a case of neglect.

Appreciate you checking it out.

:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
31. It's remarkable that this man, who had no experience of Libya
as an adult, right, he's thirty and had been living in Wales for ten years, could land in Tripoli and hook up so effectively with the underground and even with NATO. He wasn't even there for the uprising, not arriving until the repression had begun, if I'm reading his story properly. Remarkable because it would be even harder to make those connections once the government had started shooting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I guess he did not have
parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, and friends. Just one single guy all on his own.

Lots of Libyans from all over the world went back to fight in Libya.

Hardly remarkable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. I have lots of relatives in El Salvador but they couldn't plug me in
to the underground the instant I show up there, no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
61. Even if they were in the underground themselves?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
35. Rec'd. Anyone that has spent time in the Middle East or has even mildly studied it would recognize
some definite nuggets of truth here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celefin Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
36. First time ever I've read these myths.
Total weirdness.

Seriously, anybody who believed that kind of statements describing some kind of north-African Utopia
is/was staggeringly uninformed / extremely gullible / desperate

For some reason a lot of people seem desperate to create new Utopia myths, this time surrounding the NTC.
I'm not particularly looking forward to see those explained in a year or two.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. The myths themselves got posted here as not-myths a couple days ago. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. So Libyans were free to come and go as they pleased?
"It is widely known that the majority of Libyans seeking medical care leave for neighbouring countries for treatment."

Thanks for that nugget of information.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Even this "debunking" reads like half confirmation.
For instance, why didn't he say what the prices for electricity were?
If he did that, maybe everybody would agree that it was effectively free.
Same goes for free education and healthcare. His complaint sounds suspiciously
like the ones heard about Canadian free healthcare - it's so "bad" everyone
is going to the US for help. It is ridiculous to believe that all Libyans
got their medical care abroad under Qaddafi. In fact, Libyan healthcare was
considered the best in Africa, with many doctors and nurses coming from
European countries. The rest of his "debunking" is similarly vague and
unattributed. I particularly liked how confiscating the surplus housing
or land for infrastructure projects is presented as something bad and
contradicting the claims. Typical emigrant dissident half-truths and
outright fabrications.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Nope, wrong.
Edited on Wed Oct-26-11 12:37 PM by tabatha
"In fact, Libyan healthcare was considered the best in Africa, with many doctors and nurses coming from European countries."

Really, by whom. I have read a number of posts by real Libyans, and they all say that the health care was bad.

http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/featu...

-----------

Eastern Mediterranean Region
World Health Organizatio

In comparison to its MENA peers, Libya spends much less on health care as a % of GDP-
about 3.3%- but similar amount in absolute terms. When adjusted for purchasing power
differences across countries, Libya spends only USD 222 per person per annum (see
figure below).

The Government spends 60 million Libyan dinars (LD) annually for medical treatment of
Libyan citizens abroad.

http://gis.emro.who.int/HealthSystemObservatory/PDF/Lib...

-----------

So nice to believe what you want.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
56. Again those "real Libyans" - the fountain of truth and wisdom.
Edited on Wed Oct-26-11 07:21 PM by Fool Count
Do they all say that all Libyans must go abroad to get treatment, like that one example which started this thread?
If that was the case Libya wouldn't need any healthcare at all, would it? I can find you a thousand posts by
"real Canadians" and "real Australians" calling their respective health care systems worse than bad. Are we
to take those claims at face value too? I might, if I didn't experience them myself and knew firsthand that
they are actually excellent. Another obvious crap in this "debunking" was that Libya didn't provide tuition and
living stipends for its students abroad, because if it did "there would be 6 million applications for scholarships".
Do I even need to point out how ridiculous on its face this argument is? I happen to know for a fact that Qaddafi's
government covered tuition and living expenses of Libyan students studying abroad. How do I know that?
Because when bombing of Libya started and Libyan government stopped transferring money, the Libyan students
started to demonstrate asking for help from Australian government and it was all over TV here. That's how.
Some of those interviewed students supported their spouses and two children on the government living allowance
alone. So you can safely put to rest that part of the alleged "debunking". If he lied about that, why should I believe
anything he said? Should I be shocked that "real Libyans" (by the way, who the hell even knows if they are even Libyan?)
can be less than entirely truthful if it serves their interests?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. I don't beleive you read the sentence properly.
If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it not only free but they get $2, 300/month accommodation and car allowance.

I am well ware of the fact that Libyans were studying abroad - and that Hillary Clinton in the US made some effort for their allowances to keep on being paid. They were cut off in Australia as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. World Health Organization PDF
Eastern Mediterranean Region
World Health Organization

In comparison to its MENA peers, Libya spends much less on health care as a % of GDP-
about 3.3%- but similar amount in absolute terms. When adjusted for purchasing power
differences across countries, Libya spends only USD 222 per person per annum (see
figure below).

The Government spends 60 million Libyan dinars (LD) annually for medical treatment of
Libyan citizens abroad.


http://gis.emro.who.int/HealthSystemObservatory/PDF/Lib...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. So Libyan citizens are free to go abroad.
Edited on Wed Oct-26-11 02:10 PM by mainer
That was my point. This Facebook source says that Libyans leave the country and go elsewhere for medical treatment, just like Canadians can. Which implies freedom of movement and freedom of migration. Which makes you wonder why everyone didn't just up and flee, since this source says it was such a hellhole.

Where did the Libyans go for medical treatment To Egypt? UAE? Europe? And why would they return to Libya?

And the Libyan government paid for their medical treatment abroad? That seems pretty generous. Does the US pay for every American's surgery, say, in Thailand?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Good questions. I'd like to see the answers explained. n/t.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. And it says "the majority" of Libyans needing medical care
Edited on Wed Oct-26-11 02:32 PM by mainer
leave the country to get better healthcare elsewhere. MOST Libyans needing care leave Libya to get it? Wow. That's a lot of Libyans moving around freely, and confident that their care will be paid for.

I don't think most Americans needing care can afford to even leave the country, much less pay for care. Since 50 million are uninsured to start out with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. There were a lot of Libyans who left. A lot.
Others did not have the money to move whole families and relatives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. What time period are you referring to? n/t.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. They went primarily to Tunisia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. You need to use sources other than FB. Education was indeed free
Edited on Wed Oct-26-11 12:51 PM by sabrina 1
as was Health Care. UN documents are available to verify this, you don't have use such unreliable sources to try to justify the war crime that made the world sick (except for the despicable western media) and the abuse of a body, which will not be forgotten in the Muslim world.

The consistent rapes, lynchings and murders of Black Africans will have to be investigated or you all will look like hypocrites.

And now the mass graves?? Are you going to try to justify that also?

Tunisian/American journalist interviewed Libyans yesterday and found that they are frightened to speak their minds, but when pressed, expressed horror at the murder of Gadaffi.

So now, Libyans who used to be so open with visitors, are frightened to speak.

Libya's infant mortality rate was better than ours, African Americans here have a relatively short lifespan, Lybian men have a life expectancy of 75 years.

You can keep trying to justify this Imperial War but just as many of us woke up, it is the Libyan people who are the ones in for the worst shock.

Oh yes, and Gadaffi believed that owning a home was a human right. There were no homeless Libyans, the government paid for homes if someone could not afford one, and helped everyone who needed it with interest free loans.

Libya was a country with a higher standard of living than any other in Africa and most of eastern Europe, and in ways that count, life span, infant mortality, HC treatment of the disabled, all recorded with the UN btw, so we don't need FB, better than many countries in the world.

The racism of the Imperial powers is just stunning. Another murder of another African leader, more mass graves, now being covered up, and the hypocrisy of the Imperial Colonialists who demand trials for Saif Gadaffi, their Golden Boy, while covering up the Mass Murderers they used to take over that country.

I see Lindsey Graham didn't even bother to hide why we are there. 'Look, he said, now there is a lot of money to be made there' and let's hurry up and start making it.

And over in Europe, same thing. They 'packing their bags' and heading for Libya, literally salivating over all that gold and oil.

Another shameful foreign adventure into another resource rich country and people with no understanding of that culture sit around on their computers in the West and decide what is best for those 'Africans'.

But the African media has a different view. But then they know our history. Fear and anger at this murder was what was most common, except for the White S. Africans who never forgave Gadaffi for supporting Nelson Mandela.

A blood-stained criminal beginning to the 'new and improved Libya' where mass graves get covered up and murderers are protected. And whatever happened to the investigation into them murder of the Rebel Leader? I read today that most likely that will not happen or will be 'put up' until the country is 'stabilized' Well, if it's anything like Iraq, and it is, that means never.

At least when Gadaffi unseated the previous ruler, it was a bloodless coup. And now Ethiopia has discovered oil. Poor country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Poor fella.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. what does, "Poor fella" mean?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
52. How can a system...
...that provides free medicare possibly be evil? Just think about it! Once the secret police is through torturing you, you will get patched up for free - if you survive.

If even half the legends of Gadaffi's benevolence were true he wouldn't be on display in a meatshop in Misrata.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
55. Like Gaddafi's claims, this too is one sided
Truth be told, Gaddafi was a mass murdering psychopath

BUT, at the same time he did lead some nominal reforms

Nothing is simply black or white

My problem is the extra judicial killing - pretty much all evidence points to him being targeted and taken out by the US
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-26-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Where are your sources?
"pretty much all evidence points to him being targeted and taken out by the US".

Did you read the interview with Charles Bouchard - everyone thought Gaddafi was in the southern deserts of Libya.

They had no idea he was in the convoy.

Jibril even thought so - he made a statement to the effect that Gaddafi was moving between Libya, ALgeria and Niger to recruit people to help him.

You are entitled to your opinion, but not to your own "evidence".



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Oct 16th 2018, 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC