The North Koreans are all starving - again. And the Repubs

[leftyladyfrommo]

response is that is what will happen here under Obama. Such a stupid response to such a horrific famine. And their responses were so cruel and so lacking in empathy or compassion.

NK is a communist state - sort of. Mostly is a horrible dictatorship. They just spent all of their money on nuclear power and the military and just let their people starve to death.

In about 1995 about 20% of the population starved to death. And now it's repeating itself.

Actually the government is doing absolutely nothing for the people - just let them eat cake. Most of the population is trying to live on corn and corn is vitamin deficient so eventually you will die.

We are upset with some of the dictatorships around the world but really I don't think there is anywhere that people live that is as horrible as North Korea.

[RZM]

1. Everybody knows this, but what are the options?

Invading is out of the question for a plethora of reasons. I really don't know what the US should be doing that it isn't doing already.

[leftyladyfrommo]

2. I don't think we are doing anything.

Aid to N. Korea stopped in 2008 because the government was just taking it all.

I have read several books on life in North Korea. It is just unbelievable. And those people are so brainwashed from birth that they think the way they live is better than anywhere else in the world.

This time even the military isn't getting enough to eat.

A lot of people try to make it to South Korea. And some do make it across the border.

[RZM]

4. Exactly. The options are limited.

They are international pariahs. Just about everybody hates them and they provide nothing but headaches to their one real ally, China. I guess we just have to wait for the Chinese to cut them loose.

[joshcryer]

7. The people who make it to the South have to go through reconditioning, because the society is so...

...much different. It's like coming out of the 1900s and stepping right into the 2010s. A hundred year leap in technological and cultural change, overnight.

[leftyladyfrommo]

9. At least S. Korea provides them money to start over.

But a lot of the people use that money to get other family members out.

And that is so dangerous. They u8sed to be able to get to China and then to S. Korea but I think I read that the Chinese have cracked down on that.

[Bloke 32]

19. Doing nothing is the correct policy

As you say, the government and military confiscate the humanitarian aid in any case. Those bastards can starve, insofar as I'm concerned.

[Old and In the Way]

12. Seems like the UN ought to intercede with China taking a lead roll.

This cannot be a US/SEATO action I believe...but a alliance led by China and South Korea could certainly tell that tinpot dictator that enough is enough and he has to go. As formidable as the NK standing army might be, I suspect that they would ultimately be happy to see the totalitarian regime gone...perhaps that could eventually pave the way for a unified Korea, similar to the reunification of Germany.

I suppose the big unknown are the nukes in NK. Would Kim Jong ll use them? If so, it may have to be a surgical strike to him out 1st. I doubt there's anyone else in NK's command structure who would be willing to bear the consequences of making the decision to use them.

[RZM]

13. I don't know

There are plenty in the South who wouldn't want to take that risk. Even setting aside the nukes, they have a lot of conventional artillery trained on Seoul. The South would have to bear the brunt of any last-minute flailing the regime did. Plus, the economic reunification of Korea would make the Germany thing look like a walk in the park. I've heard it argued that the 'dirty little secret' among many in the South is that they'd actually just rather not deal with it for that reason.

I'd say a better hope is subtler means of undermining the regime (not that there are all that many ways to do that) and trying to pressure China to withdraw support, if not call for the regime's ouster. Maybe someday the regime will collapse on its own.

But I don't know, I don't see any of those things happening in even the medium-term.

[Old and In the Way]

15. Certainly no good solution.

Ultimately, NK is China, SK, and Japan's problem. Frankly, I'm surprised that China hasn't taken a more aggressive posture with Kim Jong IL. If there were any action, China, SK, and Japan would need to be in agreement. As long as this unstable character is in a position to launch nukes, no one in the region can be completely safe...certainly not SK.

I guess I won't be surprised if I wake up one day to read that the Royal Palace has been reduced to a smoldering hole. If it occurs, I would imagine that diplomatic/military contacts within NK would have been party to the action and had given their tacit agreement to such an action.

[JVS]

23. Find a way of sending them oil at below market prices.

The geography of North Korea and their population is such that even if things were running well they wouldn't be self-sufficient in food. There simply isn't enough arable land. This situation is made worse by the fact that they don't have the oil to engage in mechanized agriculture. So basically you have farming methods from 80 years ago trying to feed a population much larger than it was then. Also, the lack of oil keeps almost all industry (except the coal industry, which is vitally important in absence of oil), which means they cannot afford to import food. The N Korean policy of isolating itself from the world and the loss of Soviet sponsor state that gave them oil at cost for decades means that the country has a population and economy that was built around the availability of cheap oil.

[joshcryer]

25. 14% arable land should be enough, with a coal gasification + biofuel program, imo.

They also have a lot of woodland that can be converted to pasture.

[RC]

27. Cut down all the trees. Yeah, that will help them in the long run.

[joshcryer]

28. Yes, food self-sufficiency is a good thing.

[jmowreader]

32. Slash-and-burn agriculture is the norm there

Since they have no fertilizer, they burn off woodland to create new rice fields on a regular basis.

[Scuba]

3. We should immediately invade them....

...delivering food, medicine, etc.

[JVS]

5. You're joking, right?

[Scuba]

16. Absolutely not (did you read more than my subject line?).

[JVS]

20. Well congratulations on hatching a really terrible idea.

[Scuba]

22. Food and medicine are bad ideas?

[JVS]

24. Invading is a bad idea, and thinking you can just go around invading and throwing food around...

to fix any problem is another bad idea. It's already not working in several countries.

[Scuba]

30. OK, agreed. I did NOT mean a military invasion....

... but one of humanitarian workers.

[Hugabear]

36. Why don't you give it a shot?

It's pretty easy to fly over to South Korea. Why not fly over, load up a backpack and some suitcases full of food and medicine, and make your way to the border? I'm sure the North Koreans would allow you to just waltz on in.

:sarcasm:

[leftstreet]

14. Occupy North Korea!

:sarcasm:

[JVS]

21. Remember that bombs are really freedom seeds.

[joshcryer]

18. N. Korea is invasion-proof, they made sure of that. Seoul would be leveled in an hour.

Giving food aid would work (they would accept it wholeheartedly) but it would again go to the military complex and the people wouldn't even know where it came from.

[izquierdista]

6. They can't even spend enough on the military

Several articles on 'North Korea Today' (http://www.goodfriendsusa.blogspot.com/) tell about how the soldiers are malnourished and have to raid farms or fend for themselves. If another war started, all the South would have to do is put out big bowls of steamed rice and the North's entire army would defect.

Russia and China used to send them trainloads of stuff, but the NKs would keep the train cars and salvage them for the scrap metal, so now it's "if you want aid, give us an empty car and we'll fill it and give it back to you".

It seems like there is no worse way to run a country, but if there was, Kim Jong-Il would find it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. That's what I've said for a long time

If invaded by an army of starving young men, I would set up mess tents near the border and make sure the smell wafted toward the advancing troops. I would drop leaflets behind enemy lines offering free food to anyone who surrendered.

After the prisoners had had a good meal, I'd take them on a bus tour of Seoul.

[leftyladyfrommo]

8. There are 22 million people caught in that nightmare.

I just don't want them to be forgotten.

They had a really bad winter last year and then floods this summer. The crops were devastated.

So now they are trying to stay alive on potatoes and corn (and corn cobs).

[Faygo Kid]

10. "Repubs response is that this will happen under Obama" - link?

I have no doubt the FReepers say that, but if that response is actually out there by the Repukes, I want to know about it. Please post a link.

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. There has been a news story out for the last couple of days

even saw it on Drudge. But I can't find it now. I found it in the foreign press but that doesn't have all the obnoxious letters in response.

[demosincebirth]

17. N. Korea doesn't have oil... on second thought, neither did Uganda.

[eridani]

26. Just re-read an old Yes magazine article on adapting to peak oil

They gave Cuba and NK as possible models for coping, pointing out that both countries had to deal with complete withdrawal of cheap Soviet oil after 1990. Both were heavily reliant on mechanized farming and a lot of oil-based fertilizer. NK just kept trying to do everything the old way, and people started starving.

Cuba took the opposite tack of moving toward local and sustainable agriculture. Of course the tropical climate is a huge advantage--also they had devoted quite a bit of arable land to sugar for export, which no longer made sense withouth the cheap oil and which became available for food. And however top-down Cuba appears from its lack of change at the top, there had to have been vigorous local democracy and participation from the bottom. NK certainly has never had that.

[joshcryer]

29. Cuba dropped the cash crops and started growing locally, but then Venezuela came along.

Cuba isn't an example, I think North Korea might be a good example, but it's not really fair since it's one country that doesn't allow self-realization. Assume they were still sanctioned but weren't able to buy oil, and they didn't have a dictatorship. I'm sure things would be different.

[eridani]

33. Both countries are at least nominally Communist

One adapted, and the other didn't. There is a lesson there for the whole world to note.

[joshcryer]

37. Without Venezuela Cuba would be in very bad shape right now.

[eridani]

40. That does not change the fact that Cuba is now on a completely sustainable

--agriculture track. Venezuelan oil is useful, but the major changes in Cuba were made well before 1998.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. Where are the NK apologists to post pictures of smiling N. Koreans...

...and tell us that all is well there?

[joshcryer]

38. Heh

[Liberal_in_LA]

35. k&r we shouldn't let any nation starve

[thelordofhell]

39. Including ours

I bet you we have more starving people in the United States. NK is an Asian problem that needs and Asian solution. We can help, but the real coalition should be Asian in origin.