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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 02:56 PM
Original message
Why I oppose the death penalty
In 1966, a person who I would later become friends with was arrested and charged with a brutal triple-murder. In his 1967 trial, the state of New Jersey would seek the death penalty. Although he was convicted, the jury recommended “triple life,” and my friend served 20 years before his case eventually reached the federal court level.

If an objective person looked solely upon the police and prosecutors' case, my friend was indeed guilty. Four white people in a bar were mercilessly gunned down by two black assassins. Three of the four died. Three witnesses testified that they saw my friend and another man leaving the bar, carrying guns. A police officer found bullets in the trunk of my friend's car. He had a reputation as a violent black militant who hated hated all white folks. And, with a bald head, fu-manchu and goatee, he looked dangerous.

As a young teenager, who was a nationally ranked amateur boxer featured in boxing magazines, I would read an article that raised questions about if this convicted murderer was actually guilty. I wrote to him, and began what has become a 40-year friendship. As a young adult, I would actually do work with his legal defense team, and hence have access to legal documents and court transcripts, many of which were never made public. But even what was included in those public papers was more than enough to convince a federal judge that my friend not only was denied his Constitutional rights to a fair trial – instead having one that relied on deception, concealment of evidence, and appeals to racism – but that he was indeed innocent.

The person that the police caught that night, actually robbing money from the victims, was an ex-convict wanted for a string of armed robberies in nine counties. Tapes of police interviews that were not provided to the defense attorneys showed that this gentleman repeatedly told the detectives that my friend and his co-defendant were not the gunmen. The head detective told him the two were “murderers, Muslims, assassins, (and) killers.” They told him that they would have outstanding charges against him reduced or dropped if he would agree to identify my friend, and that he would get the $10,500 reward being offered. “You would be doing justice for the victims' families,” the lead detective told him. “It'd be an eye-for-an-eye” in what he described as “the race war” in America.

The bullets found in my friend's car illustrate how far one bad cop can go. Though he would testify in court that he found them on the night of the murderers, police records that were only provided to the defense a decade later show that was untrue. In fact, this cop would not even file any report about the bullets at the time of the murder. More, they turned out to be NOT the type used in the triple murder; rather, they came from a different murder scene.

I do not believe that “all cops are bad.” In fact, I come from an extended family that has produced some outstanding investigators and detectives. But I do know that when two cops coordinate efforts to fabricate and plant evidence on someone they believe is guilty, that this influences the thinking of the honest ones. And when the honest ones present information they believe is real to a prosecutor, it becomes likely that an innocent defendant will be convicted. This is perhaps the number onereason why appellate courts are so important: it isn't merely the process of a fair trial for someone who was formerly considered “not guilty” before being convicted, it is the remedy for innocent people who are falsely convicted.

The top NJ prosecutor in my friend's case had believed he was a murderer. He submitted “evidence” to the jury that my friend was motivated by “racial revenge” – that a previous murder of a black man by a white man caused him to go into a bar and shoot four people he didn't know, simply because they were white. The fact that my friend didn't know the black victim wasn't important to the prosecutor. Neither were the facts that my friend had many good social and business relationships with white people, and that there was no record whatsoever that he ever had spoken negatively about white folks in general. In fact, when challenged in court to provide any evidence that my friend dislike white people, all the prosecutor could point to was the triple murder.

The shooting victim who survived the attack told detectives that it was not my friend or his associate on the night of the shooting. He gave a physical description that absolutely cleared my friend. In the trial, he would only say that he could not identify the gunmen.

A woman who was shot, and died from complications a month later, gave police a similar description of the gunmen. It would not be for another decade that we would find out that she had actually identified the gunmen to the police. The two crooked police concealed this information, for obvious reasons.

More, there were several other witnesses in the neighborhood who saw the actual gunmen, and who would talk to the police investigators. One knew the identity of the killers – the same people the one victim named. But this, too, was concealed from the defense. Several potential defense witnesses would be threatened and intimidated by police; two would actually be held against their will in other states, both before and during the trial. Years later, a witness – white, with no personal connection to my friend – would surface; he was a taxi driver who was in the same room with my friend, by chance, at the time of the murders. Police pressure had kept him afraid and quiet for many, many years.

I'm against the death penalty, in large part because my friend came so close to dying in the electric chair. In many ways, his case is not so different from that of other wrongly convicted people. He just happened to have the assistance of Muhammad Ali, Bob Dylan, and others. Today, he works with a law school in Canada, assisting the wrongly convicted, and fighting against the death penalty.

But I'm also against the death penalty, even for murderers. I do understand what it is like to have loved ones – friends and relatives – murdered. When I was a teenager, a girlfriend was murdered by a creep who then cut her up with a chain saw, to dispose of the body. I had an uncle murdered over a card game. Two brothers who were friends of my family since I was three would be shot and killed in a parking lot, in a racially-motivated hate crime. One of my cousins, an ex-Marine, was murdered over a ten dollar bag of pot. So my thinking on this topic is not the result of being isolated from the horrors of murder.

Finally, I do not frown upon everyone who is pro-death penalty. There are some people who I like and respect who favor capital punishment. Not many, mind you, but some do. There are certainly more people I view as limited in their insight by fear and hatred, who are more blood-thirsty, much in the manner of those people cheering Governor Rick Perry's record at a recent Tea Party “debate.”

Your friend,
H2O Man
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R for Hurricane and all the others. nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Thanks.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. 15 Reasons to Oppose the Death Penalty
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. I have to add a 16th, and it is my personal reason.
I do not want to ever ask anyone, much less pay anyone, to kill another person, not even if the killing is for revenge.

Killing as self-defense in the face of an imminent threat is a different matter. Killing in a war against a real threat to others is also another matter. I don't want to ask soldiers to kill innocent people or to participate in a war that is not truly in defense of an imminent threat to our country (including the Iraq War).
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you. Your insight is most valuable. K&R n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. I'm glad that
you & some other DUers think so! (Someone just "unrecommended" the OP, which is to be expected these days.)

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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I give up even trying to understand what's going on here...
It's hard enough for me to try to wrap my brain around teabagger-type mentalities and actions, but DU has taken on a special air of crazy, too, unfortunately.

:(

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Right!
It could almost make one suspicious, without being paranoid. (Ha!) Maybe not everyone is here to embrace democratic values?

Anyhow, I appreciate one good remark by you, far more than a thousand negatives from the dark side.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. ....
That's the nice thing I've heard in a long time, and I appreciate it.

:hug:


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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm against the death penalty because I survived a family murder
and having the state commit another murder in my name would have made the whole thing worse.

The guy wouldn't have deserved to live according to a lot of folks on DU. He not only murdered my family member in a violent and grotesque manner, he was also suspected of 3 other similar crimes in the same city.

I only wanted him locked up so he couldn't do it again, that he'd stay locked up for the balance of his life. I got my wish, he eventually died in prison.

Killing him wouldn't have brought a beloved person back. Making it impossible for him to kill again had to do. And it did.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. To be honest,
way back when the freak killed my girlfriend, he was lucky that the police caught him before I did. For at that time, I had rage in my heart. So I do understand how many people feel. But the cold Truth, that you express so well here, has taken root. No power on earth could bring her back. But I have the power to rise above feelings of hatred, and the desire for destruction and revenge.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. I could see myself beating the perp to a bloody pulp
but I'd stop well before death.

That's the Irish in me. We don't want our enemies dead, we want them to live long and utterly miserable lives.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
39. Thanks Warpy. I am so sorry to hear about what happened to your family.
I have not experienced anything so horrible, but I also do not want to ask anyone to kill anyone on my behalf.

If it is such a horrible act (and it is) that I would not do it myself, how can I ask anyone else to it. How can I ask anyone else to endure the nightmares, the memories of these murders as their own life comes to a close. And I do not want to be a person who remembers the horror of hiring someone to kill someone -- which is essentially what is done when the death penalty is conducted. The public hires some poor, lost soul to kill someone. That is all it is. And what happens to the spirit, the soul, the conscience of the person who does that killing? No one asks. There is a movie about an English hangman who hanged a record number of people including war criminals after WWII. It is quite shocking.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. The parallels are uncanny. I'd like to add something.
Reading your post, I was reminded that justice is not blind. And in fact it often has an agenda. I just got off the phone while trying to contact the governor of Georgia. They're closed, and I got the message machine. Letters are to be addressed to "the honorable...". It struck me as odd, even if it is a formality. Honorable. I wonder how honorable. Withholding evidence, coercing witnesses, pushing for a reelection.

There is something that I feel strongly about, and probably wouldn't mean anything to most people. But executing someone has the effect of also punishing their entire family. This seems unduly. Even if some people feel that it's almost a game whereby one group must pay in an equal amount as the other, I cannot justify making yet more people suffer. It's like punishing twice.

I'm going to find out who is on the parole board in Georgia. I want everyone to see who the uncivilized barbarians are who would not grant Troy a fair trial.

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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thank you
I'd like to see that list too.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It was posted shortly after I mentioned it here-
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. One of the reasons
that my friend's case literally had to reach the federal courts before justice was possible was because so many people in the New Jersey legal/political system had enhanced their careers on his case. Several of the prosecutors and judges who played key roles in the original trial would be promoted to comfortable, very high-paying positions in the years immediately following his conviction.

I want to be clear: they were NOT part of a large, grand conspiracy. The suppression of evidence, and planting of fake evidence, was accomplished entirely by two police officers. But other police, prosecutors, and judges would believe them, and were thus convinced my friend was a cold-blooded assassin. In fact, in '66 and '67, a couple of local members of "organized crime" would tell these two detectives that they had solid proof -- though it could not be admitted in court -- that my friend committed the murders as an initiation into a "black power" group. These false rumors were actually reported upon by the local press. A later court hearing -- still in NJ court -- looked into an alternate juror's complaints of "jury tampering" -- several jurors were spoken to by bailiffs, and providede with newspaper articles not in evidence. The state court thought this was not cause for a reversal though.

In my opinion, the US still has the best system of justice on the planet. Yet there are very real problems with it, all being caused by human beings.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I promise I'm not stalking you...lol
But your last paragraph here reminded me of a phrase I couldn't get out of my head all morning.

Governments don't kill, people do.

Human beings write and enact laws, and human beings carry them out. We need to fully recognize the humanity (and inhumanity) within all of our systems in order to begin to heal them and recreate a more just, compassionate world.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
58. Well, you
can stalk me! I surely do appreciate that you consider my contributions to this forum worth reading and responding to.
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depressionman Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
36. if a man does not confess, he shouldn't die for no evidence
It's an important issue whether a person confesses or not. Only torture and insanity create confessors which were/are not guilty of the crime. The Georgian incident (Troy _______) exemplifies the worst situation (confused witnesses, retractions, lack of evidence, etc) and under those conditions the confession is paramount and I agree.....the family suffers, along with the community, and all others suffer for the wrong or doubtful execution. If he were still alive we all wouldn't be suffering now. REMEMBER...Troy sat up at the last moment and declared his innocence!
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. Sorry, but your statement is not accurate
This statement, "Only torture and insanity create confessors which were/are not guilty of the crime" is not true. Every once in a while an innocent person confesses to a crime. Just why, I do not know, but it happens. It may be mental illness or confusion. Very strange, but confessions are not always true.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
40. You are so right, Gregorian.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
7. K & R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Thank you.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
46. Thank you.
It's turned into an interesting and productive thread!
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Now the song plays in my head


K&R


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
47. Heck of a song.
There was a good live version released a few years back.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
:applause:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
48. Thanks, Friend GJ!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #48
59. beautifully said
thanks H20 Man
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
49. Thank you.
(How the heck are you? It seems that we do not find opportunity to talk much these days. I hope that you & yours are well.)
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #49
65. I'm well. I hope you are as well. I'm off more than on a lot these days.
Still settling in after my big move back across the pond.
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cpwm17 Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. Here's another reason the DP is wrong: Texas killed an innocent man in 2004
Cameron Todd Willingham (January 9, 1968 – February 17, 2004) was convicted of murder and executed for the deaths of his three young children by arson at the family home in Corsicana, Texas.

Willingham's case gained renewed attention in 2009 when an investigative report by David Grann in The New Yorker, drawing upon arson investigation experts and advances in fire science since the 1992 investigation, suggested that the evidence for arson was unconvincing, and that had this information been available at the time of trial, Willingham would have been acquitted.

According to an August 2009 investigative report by an expert hired by the Texas Forensic Science Commission, the original claims of arson were doubtful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFA2IGVOcw8&feature=relmfu
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
50. Right.
Thanks for adding that. Much appreciated!
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LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. The death penalty brutalizes and coarsens society!
Edited on Thu Sep-22-11 02:25 PM by LongTomH
Thesaurus.com lists all these antonyms for the word 'brutalize:'

Main Entry: brutalize
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: corrupt
Synonyms: animalize, coarsen, debase, debauch, dehumanize, demoralize, deprave, harden, pervert, vitiate, warp

Every one of them is descriptive of what the death penalty does to our society, our public discourse, and our politics. If you want evidence of all these, reference the Tea Party Republican debates and the cheers directed at Perry for his record number of executions.

And what of the politicians who rode to office on the number of people they sent to Death Row? A Texas campaign race in the 90s was characterized as a Fry-off. In 2000, we got another Texecutioner: George W. Bush. Just look what kind of president he turned out to be. The same smirking psychopath who ridiculed a woman pleading for her life was the same one who pumped his fist at reports of carnage from Iraq, and virtually ignored the suffering of the people trapped in New Orleans by Katrina.

The death penalty feeds something very dark and primitive in us. Just look at any online discussion of capital punishment - even here - especially when the subject is how the death penalty should be carried out.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
51. Great response.
Thank you for this.

By no coincidence -- for everything IS related -- my friend's work as an advocate for ending the death penalty would take him to Texas in the era of Bush's serving as governor. He told me that he had never encountered a colder human being than George W. Bush, who positively took glee in having the "power" of killing people. He told me that Bush's middle initial, "W.", stood for "Death."
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
23. Very thoughtful post.
I too oppose the death penalty, H20 Man. At one time, I supported it- before I met my husband and learned more than I ever wanted to know about our criminal justice system. My husband is a criminal defense lawyer and I've seen that our system has many flaws, and even if you believe in the death penalty, I've come to the conclusion that it could never be fairly applied.

In a perfect world
- witnesses would never lie
- jurors would never allow personal prejudices and feelings influence their decisions,
- police would never lie,
- prosecutors would be solely interested in justice and not their conviction rates or aspirations for higher office,
- judges would never let reelection worries influence their decisions for fear of appearing "weak" on crime,
- every accused person would have access to a good defense lawyer,
- verdicts & sentences would not be influenced by the defendant's finances, their skin color & appearance.


Sometimes jury results are appropriate, sometimes they are not. Sometimes appellate courts will take action to correct injustice, sometimes they do not.

Human are flawed beings and as a result verdicts and sentences will be unjust. I guess that it's my realization of how flawed we all are as human beings that I don't think we can ever have a justice system that is 100% fair, and when you are talking about a death sentence I don't think there is any room for error.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
52. Powerful response.
I thank you, not only because you took the time to add such a fine example of rational thinking to a thread that I started -- though I surely appreciate that -- but because your effort here is a prime example of what I consider to be DU's best potential.

Like many other "old-timers" here, there are occasions when I think, "this forum has changed." And not for the better. But this thread is a great example of why I consider DU to still be the very best internet site. And your post made my day.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
24. What about the child killers who admit they did it and show no remorse?
What about the victims of those families?
There's a reason the death penalty exists, and it didn't just fall out of the air.
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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. How would that be anything other than a revenge killing?
Sure, the family of the victims might feel aggrieved, but that's their right. They don't get to decide what the penalty is - that's what trials are for. And there's a very good reason those close to the victim don't get to sit on the jury - they are not capable of making objective assessments about guilt or proper punishment.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. The guy who killed 6 kids in 3 states over a 10-year period and admitted it . . .
deserved the death penalty.
He admitted to all of the killings.

Maybe you're ignorant and didn't know that even in these types of cases, the families of the victims get to testify during the sentencing portion of the case before sentencing is handed down by the judge.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Life Behind Bars is what that brutal murderer deserved as penalty for this brutal crime.
Edited on Thu Sep-22-11 11:45 PM by 2banon
That's what Justice is supposed to render, not Revenge.

When we as a society promote and carry out Executions, we are absolutely no different from any other Totalitarian Regime or System of Governance we so love to shame, condem, sanction, and even decide to enact war against.

No, Death Penalties did not fall from the air. Unfortunately Revenge is often nurtured and sanctioned by Religious Fundelmentalism and thereby the State. Iran and the United States have this in common.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. Yes. Life without parole. That is the appropriate remedy.
I believe that life without parole is the proper remedy because it gives the person time to taste life and learn to either value it more or reject it more. Either way, the person suffers more than with the death penalty -- and has more time for remorse or perhaps redemption. I do believe in forgiveness and redemption if not from other humans from God.

Death is the domain of God and only God in my view.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
62. Your use of the word "revenge" is misplaced.
Comparing the United States to Iran is ridiculous, and shows just how low the level of discourse on this subject is at the DU.

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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. I know how sentencing works.
I know the family gets to testify during sentencing and they can ask for any penalty they want. But they don't get to decide. The jury or judge decides. That is so for a very important reason: the aggrieved can't be objective about the punishment.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
53. Valid question.
It's important to me that my OP and responses on this thread are not mistaken for a "holier than thou" screed.

Years ago, on television news, there was a reporter in a Chicago airport. A kid had been kidnapped, and if I remember correctly, found alive. When the offender was returned by police through the airport, while the camera was rolling, the boy's father -- who went unnoticed as he spoke on a pay phone -- turned and put a bullet through the offender's head. I understand why he did this. Yes, I do.

Indeed, a few years ago, as my young daughters waited for the school bus, a creep in an automobile slowed down as he went by, stopped, backed up to our driveway, and began unrolling his window. I was on our lawn, and he had not noticed me until I quickly moved towards him. He sped off.

Now, I'm old. I was in a serious automobile crash. I'm not inhabiting the same body I was when I was one of the top amateur boxers in the United States. But if there is a threat to my daughters, I could still do a fuck of a lot of damage. That's about as polite as I can say it. No gun, knife, baseball bat, etc needed. No, sir.

Of course, I called the police. A trooper came to my house to talk with me. To make a long story short, they located the guy that afternoon. But they then talked to my wife, not me. The trooper said that he didn't want me to know who the guy was, because he thought I might kill him. (I've found out since, and have not killed him.)

I said that to say this: I do understand what you are saying. In fact, in my extended family, one of my late father's brothers is a now retired investigator, who was known nationally as a legendary detective. He specialized in solving child murder cases. He and I are extremely close -- he calls me "brother" these days. My oldest daughter and I are considering writing a book on a few of the cases he solved, not just because we are in awe of his abilities, but because that business is a very real part of our frayed social fabric.

Yet, I am serious about this point: I'm NOT saying that those people who commit such evil crimes deserve our pity, etc. But rather, that as a society (and not as the individual father in a Chicago airport), we should not allow them to bring out our own brutal potential. I'm not saying, "we shouldn't be like them," for we are not. We are only like ourselves, and we all have -- individually and collectively -- the best and worst potentials, and all that lies in between.

The often angry, sometimes brutal person I used to be is still inside me. Usually dormant. Sometimes waking from his sleep. I surely do not struggle with that part of me every day, not even very often. But he is there. So, my question for you is, who is of more value to our society? Which potential? Does this make sense? I hope it does.

Thank you for your comments here. They are respected and appreciated.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks
I'm against the death penalty because it's a savage and barbaric form of punishment. I think of it as state sanctioned murder. The people who vote for it and those who convict the criminals will never do the killing themselves so they never have to face the consequences of their actions when they convict someone to death.

I'm a pacifist. I'm also anti-war.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
54. Thank you.
Well said, well thought out.
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evilkumquat Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
27. I'm a former supporter of capital punishment.
When I was younger, it seemed only fair that those who would murder forfeit their own lives.

It's justice, or so I thought at the time.

Now, the inescapable logic of why the death penalty should be abolished is so strong, I cannot fathom why anyone with brains would still support it (making it clear why Perry's supporters would).

1) People sentenced to death are supposed to be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. This means there was enough evidence provided to the jury that the killer may as well have committed the murder live in front of the jury box.

However...

2) People on Death Row have been exonerated time and time again after new evidence surfaces either casting enough doubt on the original charges they are tossed or completely demolishing the case against the accused.

To those who still support capital punishment: do you really find it justifiable that innocent people die so that murderers are punished?

Are people like Troy Davis merely collateral damage, like Iraqi children blown to bits by our bombs because they were too close to one of Saddam's palaces?
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depressionman Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. my problem is not the death penalty
but that the legal system permits unjustified executions. SO...a state with a reliable history of justified executions (no errors) should be left alone and a state which makes one mistake should be banned from executing anyone for 20 years or more. Are you content that a murderer goes free after 7 years? Not me....murderers should die as soon as possible.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #27
55. Your last sentence
is the best of a very solid, thoughtful response. Thank you for this.

Many people are unfortunately unaware of how the legal/prison system, like the "defense"/war machine, is a huge industry, that destroys many, many human beings who were simply "too close."
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gademocrat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
29. K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
56. Thanks!
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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
30. My great-grandmother used to live in Patterson.
One Easter, a cop car drove by the house. I couldn't help but shiver. Here was the group that had perpetrated one of the worst perversions of justice in American history, still wielding their authority. It's funny how you run up against history sometimes.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
57. It is the
only city in America that I refuse to step foot in.
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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. She doesn't live there anymore
Great-Grandma Anna has been declining and they recently put her in a home. But for about 20 years of my life, I went to Patterson at least once a year. One year, when I was about sixteen or seventeen, all of a sudden I realized where I was. It gave me chills. It wasn't Birmingham, it wasn't Selma, it was right there in north Jersey were I had grown up.

During my teenage years, it seemed that my opinion of the United States became lower every day. It wasn't just Bush and his wars - I had become keenly interested in history, and the more I learned of it the more I saw that the injustices of the past, when closely examined, were not isolated incidents but threads that moved through history and continue even unto this day. Until that day I had always appreciated the sentiment of the words Dylan wrote - "You can't help but feel ashamed to live in a land where justice is a game" - but I had thought they were awfully strident. But then I realized that they were exactly right. We all bear the shame, even decades later, of what happened, and it remains relevant to every court case tried in America.

In another lifetime, my dad's hunting buddy was a cop in Patterson. He reports that even years later (this would have been the late '70s or early '80s) it was policy on the force, upon seeing a black man driving a car, to follow him until he either left the officer's jurisdiction or committed a crime. I don't know if it's still institutionalized.

To quote the only man I would entertain as a rival to Dylan, that poet and prophet of the Jersey shore: "Baby, we'll never go back."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. JacquesLevy
did a heck of a good job on the lyrics of the Dylan song "The Hurricane." Bob penned the first eight words, and Levy did the rest. Dylan did the music. It provides a good description of the atmosphere of the city.
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pariss3 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
33. Death Penalty
In my view, they murdered this guy because he knew too much. Dead men can't talk. I believe we all face the same corrupt judges.

In light that a number of witnesses recanted their testimony, and the dna evidence could never stand up in a court of law today; this was an outright murder.. And my view is the judicial system in the state of georgia (won't honor them with caps), was doing nothing more than to protect they and their minions and fellow associates from a re-trial. The possibly innocent man, put to death last night, does not sicken me half as much as this corrupt judicial system, that as we speak might be toasting a celebration of success and protection of each other's corruption.

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airplaneman Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
34. My take on the DP also
I think killing people is a bad business for the states to get into. I worry about an innocent person being killed. It is not fairly implemented. I can understand that some crimes seem bad enough to "get rid of" someone but it should be life without the possibility of parole. My favorite solution would be to give someone life without parole with the option of death by voluntary choice. Death can be chosen immediately or later in the sentencing, but would be voluntary and not mandatory. We incarcerate way too many people as it is.
-Airplane
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
43. I will add something else from having worked with victims
In the us we make the promise that the death of the perpetrator will make things better. It will give people closure. It almost never does and proves a cruel joke. Yes, the victims become victims again.

Nadin.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
44. Too late to recommend, but kicking anyway.
Thank you, H2OMan. This is one of your best, and that's saying a lot!
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
63. Wow, I recently read a biography of Hurricane.
This case, indeed, is a prime example of why the dp should not exist.
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
64. I'm not sure I'm against the death penalty, but America is incompetent to administrate it...
...so I am emphatically opposed to America practicing the death penalty with its present criminal justice system. The system just isn't good enough, and as long as it is based on the battle metaphor, eyewitness testimony, and enforced jury ignorance, it never will be.

So maybe I'm just against the death penalty on this planet, because I don't offhand know of a more trustworthy system, though there are plenty of countries with more civilized people, who can make mediocre systems function much better than the American one.
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