Can we talk about our prison system?

[white_wolf]

The U.S. is home to 5% of the world's population and yet 25% of all prisoners in the world reside in the U.S. We have a recidivism rate of 65%, an extremely high percentage. They do a terrible job of rehabilitation, because they are designed to punish, not reform. A few weeks ago when the shootings happened in Norway an article was posted talking about how Norway's prisoners have education opportunities, their own cells, decent food, TV, fitness trainers, etc and yet their recidivism rate is only 20%. Why is that? It is because they focus on solving the root cause of crime and not on trying to beat it out of people like we do. Also, our prisons are so violent they when people go in the often have to join gangs to survive, gangs that are organized along racial lines so that when people get out, not only are they more violent they have became racists. As a final complaint against our system prisoners are pretty much used a slave labor in private prisons.

I have thought of a few reforms that we need to pass. 1. We need to end the private prison system completely. 2. We need to replace our punitive system with a rehabilitative one and focus on teaching prisoners job skills, helping them get GEDs and college degrees. They need to be taught the skills to help them make a living for their family without resorting to crime. People don't' commit crimes because they are lazy or bad, the commit them out of desperation. 3. We need to do something about the violence and gangs in our prison system. Honestly, though I'm not completely sure what to do about this issue. 4. We also need to abolish the death penalty. 5. This one may seem controversial, but we need to abolish the disenfranchisement of felons or at least provide a mechanism for them to apply for the right to vote after they have been out of prison for a few years. If people feel like they have a stake in the democratic process and a say in society they will be less likely to disregard its laws.

I welcome any other suggestions on this issue as I feel it is very important to our society. I know some people may say these polices make me weak on crime, but that's fine I'll accept that label, because I am hard on the causes of crime and I'd rather fix the problems that cause crime than punish people.

[FarLeftFist]

1. Doesn't make you weak on crime to wanna fix the root of the problem.

We need revolution not reform.

[white_wolf]

5. I agree. I listed my solutions above as a starting point, but really our whole "justice" sytem needs

to be changed. It is a mess.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

2. The US prison system is absolutely atrocious

Some things with regards to public perception just make me sick. There are a good number of people out there who believe prison rape is "just another part of prison", that someone being raped in a cage is the subject of jokes rather than discussion, and who think that "you shouldn't do the crime if you can't do the time" with regards to this.

Gangs, violence, and rape are prevalent in prisons, and as state-run institutions, the prisons, the guards, the wardens, and the states should be held entirely responsible for this happening. Guards and wardens should be arrested for letting this happen without making major changes.

Some countries won't even extradite people to the US because they consider our prisons to be cruel and unusual punishment.

Here is a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWxpQ87C4t4>Torture: America's Brutal Prisons


There are so many special interests entrenched in this, I can't see how it's possible to change, but this is one of the saddest aspects of this country today.

[udbcrzy2]

3. We already have some of those things

In my state the prisoners have a/c, flat screen tv's in their cell. They can also get a GED and attend college. Some have skills training too. I agree we need to end the private prison system services because it's really expensive. I wish we had better drug laws. But any violent offender, we need to be tough on them. People who murder and rape or rob need to made accountable for their crime.

to add:

most of the prison sex is consensual though...

[white_wolf]

6. You can't be serious with all of this.

First of all we are tough on violent offenders and it does not solve the problem. A 65% percent recidivism rate is a failure. As I posted above no one commits crimes because they are lazy or bad, they do so because of economic pressures.If people weren't starving, unable to find decent work, and weren't living in poverty they wouldn't commit crimes. Crimes have economic and social roots. Our tough on crime stance hasn't solve a thing, it's time to move out of this Dark Ages style justice system.

I find our statement that prison sex is consensual to be completely false.

[udbcrzy2]

7. Are we talking about the same thing???

How would economic pressure make someone kill? I'm talking about a brutal murder? Some folks are just evil even the rich ones...

About the sex, why would they have to rape when they can get it without doing that?

[white_wolf]

10. You should really avoid terms such as evil. It is too simplistic a term.

The murder issue is a broad one. A lot of murders are committed during other crimes such as breaking and entering, robbery, car-jacking, drug dealing, etc. Those are all caused by economic issues. If you mean people like serial killers, they clearly have mental issues and should be committed to hospitals where they can be treated.

As to the rape issue, rape is never about sex it is about power. In prison rape is used as a way to display one persons dominance over the other. A way to say "I'm in charge, do what I say." It has nothing to with sex, it is about power and control.

[Cid_B]

32. You base that on what again?

"As I posted above no one commits crimes because they are lazy or bad, they do so because of economic pressures"

It will always be easier to steal your TV that to work and save for one. Too many second chances already... So much slips through the cracks because of crap like this...

They don't want to work. Doesn't mean they necessarily want to commit crime but the drive to earn and work isn't there. Everything has to be easy or given...

[white_wolf]

34. Am I on the wrong site? That sounds like something I"d expect from Free Republic,not,

from progressives. You keep your tough on crime attuide and see where it gets us. Here's a hint, nowhere.

[midnight]

4. Our prisons punish in ways that are being dismissed as business as usual...

Case in point-our women being shackled during labor.... I agree step one is ending private prisons.....

[elocs]

8. I want people in prison who have committed violent crimes,

people who need to be separated from society for the protection of society. That especially goes for repeat drunk drivers since I am likely more in danger of being killed or maimed by a drunk driver than any other criminal.

[white_wolf]

11. What do you propose we do about our 65% recidivism rate?

Lock people up? Our prison system is broken, it does not reform people, it in fact makes them worse. As to drunk drivers I prefer state mandated counseling and rehabilitation to help them cure their addiction. They are sick, not evil.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

25. Seeking humane treatment of prisoners isn't being "soft on crime"

Neither is seeking rehabilitation as opposed to vengeful punishment. Rehabilitation-focused treatment, aimed at changing the person for the better, will result in lower recividism rates and more productive people after prison. If you aim to punish people as harshly as possible, aiming to dehumanize them in order to get revenge for their crimes, you will only break their psyches, leading to even more disturbed individuals.

People who go to prison get out eventually (if they are lucky), if a person robs a liquor store and goes to prison, I don't want him coming out addicted to heroin, having had to stab a man for self-defense, and with emotional and mental problems associated with rape, abuse, and being treated like an animal.

If we treat people like rabid animals in prison, we are going to create rabid animals that eventually come out.

I absolutely agree that people who rape or kill or steal should be separated from society, I even agree that some people may be "unfixable", but we should not be trying to inflict eternal suffering on them. Seperate them from society to keep others safe, restrict their freedoms as punishment, and provide a healthy sane environment for them to face their problems and become better people. It won't work for everyone, after all there are some psychos out there, but it's a LOT better than torturing people or letting them be raped.


Also, fix the war on drugs, there is a strict correlation between drug law enforcement and prison populations:

[elocs]

33. Yes, lock those people up who need to be there for the protection and safety of society.

That would severely diminish the prison population.

Repeat drunk drivers need to be locked up for the protection of society. If you lived in Wisconsin and routinely see people being picked up for their 5,6,7,8, or 9th offense you would not find any objection to locking them up. Repeat drunk drivers who have already been through rehab and treatment do not get unlimited opportunities to drive drunk and kill or injure innocent people.
It doesn't matter if they are sick and not evil, they need to be separated from society for the protection of society.

[RKP5637]

9. K&R!!! n/t

[pipoman]

12. "rescission rate", I can't find the word "rescission" in this context..

do you mean 'recidivism'?

[white_wolf]

13. Yes. Thanks. I should have checked it more carefully, but I was working on a paper as I thought of

this.

[udbcrzy2]

14. Don't forget to include murderers who are not serial killers

Serial killers are not the only ones who murder where there isn't another crime involved, except maybe armed criminal action. Some folks are just shockingly evil without the mental illness. Although they'd love to plead mental illness and walk out of court for sure, but that is something that has to be determined. I can think of thrill killers, mothers who murder their children, spouses who kill their partners, etc.

[white_wolf]

15. All three of those you listed likely have some psychological or outside factor contributing.

Thrill killers, I'm sure there is some psychological reason for what they do. They should be sent to a hospital. Mothers who kill their children are often motivated by religious fanaticism, which is usually brought on by various mental illnesses. Still though you seem to be ignoring the larger issue, which is that our prison system fails when it comes to rehabilitation and treats prisoners inhumanely. You seem to be punished on punishment, whereas I am focused on rehabilitation. I highly doubt you will ever find a violent crime that isn't motivated by factors such as economic pressures or some mental illness. The concept that people are just evil is far too simplistic and is a notion we need to abandon.

[udbcrzy2]

23. I guess they figure some won't ever be released

Some of those folks don't need to be out in society with people who don't kill. I guess I'm not as nice as you are. Someone who murders a innocent family for some bullshit reason should be held accountable and do the time.

[white_wolf]

24. Did I ever say we should let murderers go and not be punished? No.

I said we should focus on rehabilitating them. I'm sorry if you've bought into the right-wing myth that being tough on crime solves the problem, but evidence shows otherwise. Rehabilitation should be the goal, not punishment. You seem to have this notion that some people are just evil, but evil is a religious concept that has no place in a discussion involving solutions to real world problems.

[SalviaBlue]

16. Privatized prisons require prisoners to make a profit.

its all by design.

[white_wolf]

17. So the problem is capitalism, then? We can get rid of that too. nt.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

26. amen

[KamaAina]

18. No.

If we did, it might derail a lot of people's gravy train, not to mention cause people to have to think about the elephant in the room -- race. We can't have that. Sorry.

:sarcasm:

[white_wolf]

19. Damn it. I knew I left something out. I forget to mention that fact that minorites make up a larger

% of prison population than whites. Thanks for bringing it up.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

29. If you consider the fact that prisoners are often forced to work for free

combined with the incredible disproportionate rate at which minorities are arrested, convicted, and given harsh prison sentences, what you have is a modern system of slavery that many industries make insane amounts of money off of.

This is an old practice, states in the south after slavery enacted laws that both legalized coerced prison labor and made black people the targets of police and prisons. The result was an exploding population of people who were legally forced to work for free.

If we look at one of the biggest contributors to the prison population today: the war on drugs, we see that blacks and hispanics are FAR more often arrested and given prison sentences for non-violent drug offenses. However, studies show (and anyone living in a college town will know this anecdotally) that white people use drugs and sell drugs just as much as minorities. The difference is how the police choose to enforce these laws. They purposefully creep around poor minority neighborhoods, which they deem "crime areas", which gives them the authority to stop and search people just for being in that neighborhood. This type of activity specifically targets low-income minorities, resulting in a swelling prison population that is disproportionately minority represented.

[coalition_unwilling]

20. To your list of 5, I would add a sixth: increase funding dramatically

for the public defenders' offices so that we begin to do away with the idea that justice is entirely a salable commodity (the perception currently).

[white_wolf]

21. I agree with that as well. Of course I have a small bias since I'm considering public defense

[saras]

22. If we removed from prison everyone who can be rehabilitated, there would be so few left...

...that we could have a whole different debate, with different things at stake, about what to do with them. Personally, I'd make the prisons try to make them as good people as possible. The worse you are, the more punishing this is, and the better you get, the less punishing it becomes, automatically.

Instead, our system rewards the worst prisoners by letting them essentially run the prison in many cases. And if anything, they run it even worse than the guards do.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

30. Even if we are only talking about people who cannot be rehabilitated

We should still give them humane treatment. Keep them in the prison, never let them mingle with the rest of society where they might hurt someone, but for God's sake don't torture them or try to make their life a living hell.

Even with a rabid animal that bites someone, they put it to sleep rather than torturing it for revenge. That doesn't mean I agree with the death penalty (I do not), but if we are willing to reduce the suffering of a rabid animal, why are we willing to torture dehumanize people because they are not able to be rehabilitated?

[cali]

27. Can't disagree with any of that. Oh, and in Vermont prisoners can vote

Same with Maine.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

28. One of the main criticisms of the Soviet Union was the Gulags

Today's American prison is about as shockingly atrocious as the gulags were. As a percent of population, we are putting more people in prison than almost anyone EVER. Violence, gangs, rape, and guard-sanctioned abuses are rampant. People are put in prison for frivolous non-violent offenses.

The Prison system is one of the greatest shames of our society and it isn't something that people should overlook. Nobody wants to stand up for prisoners, but you should stand up for what's right.

[blindpig]

31. Not 'almost'

The USA has more people imprisoned than the Soviets ever thought about, something the red baiters seem to ignore.

From chronic unemployment and de-industrialization to for profit prisons it's all about capitalism.