You know I could understand the Pipeline, from a practical political position,

[WCGreen]

if they were also doing a whole lot of everything to advance alternative energy.

But this is all for the oil companies infrastructure, it has always been and always will be.

All this tinkering around the edge, all these tid bits of hope thrown toward those of us who are dying to get some alternative energy that is viable for the ordinary person to use just so we look the other way...

And what do we get from our government, soaring speeches and more and more precious resources thrown to an industry that is destroying life as it enters it own death throws.

This is a big deal, folks, this really should show us once and for all who is for us and who is against us.

I have been worried about the environment since I was a little kid and we couldn't swim in Lake Erie. That was almost 50 years ago.

Since then we have come a long way.

But all that will be for naught if we don't start saying you can't do that to the oil and natural gas industry.

Remember when they told us that increased mileage standards and increased emission controls would destroy the auto industry.

We put the mildest constrains in the industrial world on the domestic auto industry and they still went over seas...

The capitalists in this country are destroying our economy, our way of life, our future...

Pipeline.

Why aren't we extracting some concessions from our hostage takers?

[gateley]

1. I can't think of any reason allow this to happen. There's

plenty of oil still available if we just get on the stick and REALLY move forward with alternative energy. There's no more earth.

[WCGreen]

3. I'm just pointing out from a practical political point of view...

It's not what I want but I could understand this.

I mean he could pull the oil companies into his office and say this is it, the last time. If you don't start investing in alternative energy you will not get anything else from us.

In other words, something to show us that he has our back.

That's what I was talking about.

[gateley]

8. I still can't get on board with that. He shouldn't have to use

this as a negotiating tool. He could DEMAND investing in alternative energy - and he should.

This really goes beyond politics. I'm just astounded that this could even be considered. This affects us all, regardless of heritage, rich, poor, whatever. This is our fucking planet! The WORLD should be raising hell about this!

If he used it for a political bargaining chip, I would still feel betrayed. This is the big one for me, and caught me blindsided. Again, I'm just stunned it's actually a possibility.

I know I'm not acknowledging your point, and I see what you're saying, but although I think I'm painfully pragmatic, there is no way I can be pragmatic about this. :(

:hi:

[WCGreen]

32. It's a done deal...

I am pointing out that nothing was extracted from the oil companies...

I would never want this to happen. The fact that the administration was pretty much giving the green light is what bothers me...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Well, they aren't doing shit about alternative energy sources...

The Canadian pipeline is a complete environmental horror. Complete.

It has the potential to lay waste to all the fly-over states that it would cross.

I don't really understand Obama's stand on this at all.

I'm asking your last question too...

Recommended.

[WCGreen]

4. It's that bad, Peggy....

[jschurchin]

5. Do you understand it from a job creating position?

The project will create thousands of very good paying jobs along with helping to provide a ready supply of the energy that we all need.
I understand the long term need to find and persue renewable energy sources. But in the short term I.e. >30 years, we NEED the oil. To think otherwise is not only shortsighted but also foolish.

[WCGreen]

6. That is the practical political part i was talking about...

But it seems to be yet another give the oil companies everything at no cost to them...

I am a very practical person.

[jschurchin]

11. Well we can only hope that the Oil Companys

Are the ones footing the bill. I am about sick and tired of giving welfare to companys weather they are oil, financial or automobile. They want to pursue a capital improvement, fine. THEY PAY FOR IT.

[WCGreen]

14. But they aren't paying for all the secondary cost because that would

make the pipeline impractical.

[stuntcat]

17. I wish everyone would learn all about the tar sands

What they do to soooo so much land to get this stuff, filthy stuff that when used is so much worse that the oil we've already burned so much of for so long. It's a good thing short-term for the economy and jobs but it sets the whole world back, like a nail in the coffin.

I understand the 'positives' of it. But the negatives are real, physical and permanent. It is too bad we aren't investing this effort into developing the renewables.. that would create jobs too.

[WCGreen]

31. That's pretty much what I spelled out in my original post...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. We must not destroy the environment for job creation.

It is wrong to think that this is the way to create jobs.

It does not have to be either/or.

[RegieRocker]

9. The trashing of the planet continues....

[gateley]

12. +1,000,000,++++++++++ nt

[jschurchin]

16. Guess what that keyboard you typed your post on is made of Peggy?

One guess darlin.

Please tell me you are not that clueless.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

18. I am not clueless. It's made of plastic.

and you can drop the condescending tone any old time.

[Lorien]

24. It's like that Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where Calvin is pretending that space

Aliens are sucking humans up from earth in a giant vacuum and using them for fuel. Hobbes asks if there isn't some less destructive way that the aliens can get their fuel, and Calvin says "what, you don't care about their JOBS!?"

[gateley]

10. But we can and SHOULD find jobs elsewhere - this is the

future of our planet!

[WCGreen]

13. And that is where the Obama Adm dropped the ball....

No concessions.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

15. Exactly.

BTW, this belongs in your Journal...

Just sayin'...

[gateley]

19. The jobs are gone, and Obama wasn't the one who allowed

that to happen, but I agree he needs to do something to get them back AND crate new ones. Every fucking representative should be working toward that end, but we see that's so far from the reality of what's happening.

Am I still missing a point? I'm sorry to be obtuse, but I'm tryin'! :7

[WCGreen]

22. He could have made them open an alternative energy bank that

would put a whole bunch of money into updating all sorts of energy inefficient buildings.

Just off the top of my head.

I'm sure the genius in this administration could have figured something out.

[gateley]

29. Are you saying in return for giving this the go-ahead? nt

[WCGreen]

30. It has already been given all but the final go ahead...

I'm not happy about that at all.

But what is more distressing is that the administration is allowing this to go through without any concessions on alternative energy.

Nothing.

http://www.americablog.com/2011/08/obama-admin-moves-towards-approval-of.html

[gateley]

33. Until they get the final go ahead, I'm going to keep e-mailing

and calling the WH.

I know I'm being too unrealistic and stubborn, but NO! No bargaining with this! If this is allowed to happen, nobody gets any slack for making
'good deals'.

I'm irrational about this, I know.

ETA: But thank you for being so patient with me. :)

[WCGreen]

34. I really don't want this to happen...

This should have been made a moot point.

You know it was Reagan who made fun of president Carter's energy initiatives.

If the country would have gotten behind energy independence instead of buying into the republicans jingoism, well...

[gateley]

35. The rest of the country has come to understand, the Republicans

and Big Business refuses to.

[cilla4progress]

38. Confusled... please explain in re final go-ahead -

I understood it was given yesterday by the State Dept's recommendation in favor?

[shintao]

36. Building a Guillotine will provide jobs.

There are plenty of ways to provide jobs besides building a pipeline. But I think we are on different tracks here. Why do we need a ready supply of energy when we all ready have more than enough oil to more than meet demand.

I just wish people would spend some time researching our oil situation, rather than listening to the media, the President & the Energy Commission. You need to have a grasp on this to avoid being scammed by Big Oil.

Right now all above ground storage is full, and we are building football sized tanks to store (hide oil in) more oil. The National Oil Reserve is topped off. Refineries are running at 80% of capacity because demand is down. Cars are getting 5% better gasoline mileage a year over the last several years. We have millions of commuters laid off, and the economy is stifling vacation travel. We are exporting oil to Japan, Korea, Canada & Mexico. We have millions of oil wells capped across America that could be producing, by sticking a pump in them. There is NO demand.

What we should be doing is building desalination plants along our coast lines and pumping fresh water several states inland. This will create more farms & lower farming costs, lower consumer costs and local water costs, lower industrial costs. We are running out of water & can't wait on demand to catch us with our pants down, like it has done the Texas governor. ie. People have no water, cattle & produce dying in the sun.

[Richard D]

20. One thing I never hear mentioned . . .

. . . is that we are taking out all the oil that this world has, at least in human terms, for forever. Once it's gone, it's gone, and it's all gone in just a few generations. No more forever.

[jschurchin]

21. Here is the thing

I like my TV, made from oil. My car, also made from oil and it runs on the stuff after it is refined. I like driving on smooth roads, also made from oil. My computer is sweet and I like it, well you guessed it. My milk container, along with my coffee maker, toothbrush, and razor. Yeah all made from oil.

Please tell me what you are willing to give up? I'm a practical and reasonable man. I am also a realist, so who here is first to not reply on their computer made from oil?

[WCGreen]

Well for one, as long as it is cheap to create all this stuff from oil..

nothing will be done.

Here is something practical for you to ponder; when the oil is all gone or too expensive to extract, what then?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

23. Oh, get real.

Obviously we could not switch overnight from our oil-based economy. It can't be done.

We CAN start studying alternative sources for the stuff we use.

We haven't even done that.

[Lorien]

26. We already have the technology, we lack the political will to use it

Google the Venus Project.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

27. Thank you; I will do that.

[jschurchin]

39. Peggy, your mistaken.

We have begun to develop alternative sources. Hydrogen, electric and natural gas powered vehicles have all been made into workable models. We as a consumer nation have not been willing to purchase these products in sufficient numbers to make them commercially viable. To say that we haven't developed alternatives, is just plain false.

[Lorien]

25. Alternatives to plastics already exist

And if you WERE a realist you would understand peak oil and climate change, then begin to grow up about it.

[girl gone mad]

28. It would be preferable to move to more sustainable models of consumption.

I have a razor and espresso maker made from metal. I have used both for over a decade. Milk in glass bottles tastes better and the bottles can be recycled. These things were affordable to most before they were plasticized. It may take effort, but the short term thinking you endorse here is literally killing our ecology and disrupting our economy.

[robcon]

37. The pipeline is a terrific project, and we'll all benefit from it.

I support the president on this project.