Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Three Political Insurgents

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 08:12 PM
Original message
Three Political Insurgents
“We want to attack the ivory tower from the ivory tower. What's interesting is that these assaults resonate with a punishing paradox. We celebrate transgression, hybridity, migration, and mobility, but when people actually do these things, there is incredible resentment against such movement.”
Michael Eric Dyson ; More Than Academic




Some of the more acrimonious recent discussions on the Democratic Underground's “General Discussion” have had to do with if President Barack Obama could – or indeed should – face a challenger from the left in the 2012 Democratic Primary season. I think that issues regarding President Obama can be discussed here in a serious manner, without appeals to the bitterness that tend to create hostility and widen the gaps between groups of forum participants. Hence, on Sunday, I posted an essay (“On President Obama & 2012”) which detailed some thoughts on his style of leadership; my goal was to encourage a meaningful discussion. With but three exceptions, those responding to the OP were able to focus on the topic. Not bad, at all.

I am hoping this follow-up will produce a similar response. My goal is not agreement on the issue of a potential primary challenge. Rather, I'm hoping that we can debate some of the issues in a manner that may increase the understanding and appreciation of others' opinions. Let's start by taking a look at three examples of Senators who challenged a sitting Democratic President. Those three are, of course, Eugene McCarthy, Robert Kennedy, and Ted Kennedy.

In looking at these examples, it is important to be aware that “comparing” does not equal “equating.” This caused a bit of confusion for a couple people on the Obama thread. In the study of sociology, including the political sciences, comparisons that include similar circumstance – such as three US Senators who challenged a sitting Democratic President in primaries – are intended to illustrate patterns, not to equate the individuals involved – even if they happen to be brothers.

In late 1967 and early '68, two overlapping issues caused both McCarthy and RFK to consider challenging President Lyndon Johnson. One was his personality; the other, his approach to the Vietnam War. That war drained the American economy to an extent that made it impossible for LBJ to fund his Great Society programs anywhere near the levels he had dreamed of doing. The country was in crisis, with unrest in the cities, and tensions growing between the government and the civil rights and anti-war movements.

LBJ was agreeing to the expansions of military aggression asked for by military leaders. Thus, a growing segment of the Democratic Left was hoping for an insurgent challenge to LBJ in the primary season. More moderate voices within the establishment began to question if it were better for them to fight for peace and lose, than to support the growing war and win.

The Democratic Left would first attempt to talk Senator Robert Kennedy into running. The strained relationship between LBJ and RFK was widely recognized. More, people felt that Senator Kennedy would be the person most likely to be able to defeat Johnson. However, for a variety of reasons – including his fear that such an attempt would split the Democratic Party – Kennedy said no.

Other Democrats who were beginning to come out against the war, such as George McGovern, were also approached. One in particular, Eugene McCarthy, told organizers from the Democratic Left that he felt Kennedy should challenge Johnson. Eventually, when it seemed apparent that RFK would not run in 1968, McCarthy reluctantly agree to enter the contest.

McCarthy was a curious man. Besides serving in military intelligence in the war years, he had pursued his education, and become a public school teacher. Then a university professor. He then served a decade in the House of Representatives, before entering the US Senate in 1959. His most notable action leading up to '68 was likely his introducing Adlia Stevenson for the nomination at the 1969 Democratic Convention, which had instead picked Senator John F. Kennedy. (His line, “Do not reject this man who made us all proud to be Democrats!” was considered one of the best of the convention, but Stevenson had already lost two presidential races.)

In 1964, McCarthy was publicly identified as being on LBJ's short list for VP. This could only have been for political purposes, in my opinion, as Johnson required someone with a much weaker personality. Other than these two things, McCarthy had a rather unremarkable career in the Senate by late '67. He was consider to be highly intelligent, but prone to be moody and highly individualistic. Robert Kennedy viewed him as lazy.

His run against LBJ was not viewed as a particularly serious challenge until New Hampshire. Yet in the period between New Hampshire and Wisconsin, McCarthy became convinced the November election would be between Richard Nixon and himself. When it became apparent that RFK was reconsidering a run, McCarthy sent a message: he only intended to serve one term, and after that, Kennedy could be President.

Three things stand out, in the context of authority/power (as discussed in the Obama OP): first, McCarthy approached his run in a curiously detached manner – as older forum members will remember; second, he believed that US Presidents should enjoy less “power” than, for example, LBJ did; and third, he still maintained a strange sense that even this limited power could be handed off to another select person after four years. His was an example of bureaucratic, systems power, although his almost monk-like, poetic nature made him appear charismatic before closer examination.

Robert Kennedy's 1968 run is one of America's great but tragic mythologies. The idea that he challenged Johnson in order to reclaim the presidency for the Kennedy wing of the party is dispelled when one recognizes that he fully planned to run in 1972 – and not '64 or '68. It was the damage that he saw Johnson doing to this country, and in Vietnam, that convinced him to enter the race. It is true that McCarthy's showing in New Hampshire made clear that Johnson could be beaten. The anti-RFK people believed his entry after that was cheap; the pro-RFK people believed it was because he was convinced McCarthy could not beat Nixon.

A couple of important points: first, before 1966, Robert Kennedy could be called many things, but definitely not charismatic. He was outstanding at “systems” – both in running campaigns, and much more importantly, as Attorney General, running the Department of Justice. A strong case can be made that he was the best Attorney General in modern times. His leadership was entirely bureaucratic in style.

It was only from 1966 to '68 that RFK had his charismatic phase; it was primarily during his primary campaign that his legendary role took place. Yet his pursuit of power was not because he placed his personal ambition first. Rather, it was that he understood, in a way few others have, how power could be used to help those crushed by the system. And that made him dangerous.

After RFK was killed, some people pressured his younger brother, Senator Teddy Kennedy, to run in 1968. Pressure was again applied in '72. When Jimmy Carter was elected in 1976, it became clear that he planned to serve as something of a “Washington outsider.” He did not have particularly close relationships with the still strong “Kennedy wing” of the Democratic Party. Carter's presidential journals show that in his opinion, the biggest area of difference between himself and Teddy Kennedy was in regard to health care reform. President Carter sought to improve health care by taking smaller steps; Kennedy sought larger steps.

One can speculate on what combination of factors caused Ted Kennedy to decide to challenge President Carter in the 1980 Democratic primaries. Certainly, there was a growing public perception that Carter was “weak.” That powerful, non-Democratic interests pulling media strings promoted this perception is beyond debate. Also, Kennedy had to have been considering when, if not 1980, would be the best opportunity for him to run for the presidency.

Ted Kennedy ranks among the greatest US Senators of any generation. His accomplishments speak for themselves. They are also evidence of a man who excelled at exercising bureaucratic power. His run in 1980 shows that he might have been viewing the circumstances more in terms of his own political career's potential, than an accurate reading of the then current political atmosphere.

It is probably fair to say that President Obama's supporters view each of these three Senators' experiences as evidence of but one thing: primary challenges to sitting Democratic Presidents can only hurt the party – and lead to villains like Nixon and Reagan being elected. And there is certainly some truth to that.

Those Democrats and members of the Democratic Left who have been seriously disappointed by President Obama tend to view these same events differently. First, many recognize that a primary challenger is unlikely to beat Barack Obama for the nomination. More, few think a primary challenge would weaken him to the point that Michelle Bachman would crush him next November.

The 1980 events suggest that a politician seeking personal power is not helpful. A worthwhile challenger would be someone who is not seeking power, but who instead seeks to make a powerful statement. Such a candidate could only be convinced to run if the circumstances – including the economy, the wars, the wishes of a segment of the Democratic Party, and also the President's behaviors – demand that such an action be taken.

The pro-Obama people do not believe that we are anywhere near that point. Those hoping for a primary challenger believe that we are either getting very close, or already there.

Would a primary challenge, were one to happen, split the Democratic Party? Or could the lack of such a primary do more to divide the party? I do not think that there is a single correct answer to that …. not at this point, anyhow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Frankly, I think the party is already split.
Skipping a primary is an attempt to paint over that split, but I don't think there is going to be any bridging the divide at this point.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I think that
no primary challenge might result in a lack of participation in the general election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. For some.
For others, if the Democratic Party doesn't give them a voice, at least in a primary, they will participate. They'll just go 3rd party.

The current powers that be in party leadership have to know this. They seem quite willing to lose the left wing of the party. Perhaps their long term goal is to purge the party of its left wing, and short-term losses seem acceptable on the way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting post. Thanks, something to ponder.
v
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thanks!
The fact that someone "unrecommended" this a moment ago convinces me the OP is worthwhile. A knee-jerk reaction from the shallow indicates the OP does spark thought among those capable of thinking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think there certainly is a danger in him both being unchallenged
and challenged. That is what makes the decision on what position to take hard. Unchallenged, he may be the one that brings a huge fracturing of the party once the assault on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid begins that the party cannot heal. Challenged could mean we have a very bad presidency in a Republican nominee. It almost seems a no win situation unless one views politics as a team sport removed from daily life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. My concern is
that without a primary challenge, a sizable number of progressive Democrats and members of the Democratic Left will lose interest and sit out the November general election. With a primary challenge, President Obama will at least have to address the very real concerns of this group, who he otherwise totally ignores.

It's hard for me to imagine him facing a tougher challenge than the 2008 primary battle between him and Senator Clinton. But, without the participation of those who did support his 2008 campaign -- including getting out the vote of a segment that normally wouldn't have voted for a democrat -- he could have difficulty carrying key states in the 2012 general election. And I see too many pro-Obama folks here who casually quote national polls, rather than focusing on the state dynamics. A state like Pennsylvania might not go to President Obama in 2012.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I agree there will be some no shows unchallenged.
One could call it the despair factor. Party professionals are discounting it. I think that is a mistake due to lack of recognition and their tendencies to view districts as one way or another instead of taking a real, less calculated or parsed stand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. We witnessed the
results of the failure to get out the vote in the 2010 mid-term elections. Both sides of the divide here (and in the country) need to recognize the potential weaknesses and errors in their positions.

The progressive wing of the party, and their Democratic Left allies, are frequently told they are an insignificant minority. Yet, when elections are lost, they are blamed.

At the same time, the Democratic Left (including some liberal and all progressive Democrats) have to recognize that while the differences between Blue Dog and Third-Way Democrats and actual republicans may be few, they are very real. The fact that the Tea Party now has a strong position in the House of Representatives is an ugly reality ..... though it suggests that an active Democratic Left has the ability to have an equally strong position in DC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. No one looks beyond the next fight.
Edited on Fri Aug-19-11 06:58 AM by mmonk
That is where I am and it seems paralyzing. I see more lost ground from a progressive view either way. Fighting despair becomes more difficult. I'm determined to take ground back locally. Looking nationally, less determined due to the view from my lense as to options. That is where it just seems a mechanical duty.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Is that ronnie raygun's lump of an ass in that pic?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. No.
That's RFK as a kid, learning to fight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. The adult, who's he?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I have no idea.
I have the photo because it's RFK and boxing. I don't know the identity of anyone else in it. But I can see why it reminds you of Reagan .... though I think the ages rule that possibility out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yes, unless ... ackety, no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. If you look at this situation like pancake batter...
Edited on Fri Aug-19-11 08:04 AM by Little Star
In 2008 the primaries had people excited. Yes some lost and some won but our party and Independents were excited and involved. The political place rocked!

When we had our candidate, the time had come to make the pancakes! And make them we did. There would be no McCain/Palin. Both the happy and the not so happy got out and voted for Democratic pancakes because in the end that’s what we like.

Now our batter, sitting in the fridge has separated. Flour mix has sunk to the bottom and the water has raised to the top. This batter will not mix itself and we won’t cook and eat it like that. We are hungry yet we don’t want what’s in that batter bowl. We've seen it sitting there unmixed and it is not appetizing anymore.

We need to mix that dang batter! People need to feel the political place rock once again with democratic pancakes. We need to smell them cooking, we need to taste them and feel full with excitement again.

If we don’t mix up that batter and cook our own pancakes (primary) that slop in the bowl will stay just that slop! And many of us will just grab that handy box of cereal (sit on our hands and do nothing).

No we won’t vote Republican. Most of us who are craving pancakes and ended up eating cereal will not do one thing except cast our angry Democratic vote because we were given no other choices.
I submit, this is not the way to build a strong healthy Democratic body.

We need Obama to show us he can make good democratic pancakes. But we won’t know if his are the best democratic pancakes unless there is a throw-down as Bobby Flay says!

Let’s primary, is where I’m at. And I’ll even go so far to throw in one viable name, Matt Damon. I agree with Michael Moore on this one! Yet I am certainly open to other viable candidates.

I’ll shut up right after this. There are many nuts who may consider a primary of Obama. But, it would take a viable democrat of very strong conviction and fortitude to truly primary our first black president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Interesting metaphor.
I like pancakes. :D

I have to say that, while I think you make a good point, I really don't like to see politics run on emotion. Emotion is processed by a more primitive part of our brain, while logic, language, planning, judgement...are processed in the frontal lobe. When you trigger emotion, it tends to overpower the frontal lobe, and I don't think that makes for good political choices.

For example, how many Democrats were so inspired by eloquent, emotion-triggering words and the hope for positive change in the last Democratic primary that they didn't recognize the center-right neoliberal under the skin of the man they elected until way too late?

I don't want people to get all excited and join hands and sing in a circle and work to elect someone because they are a Democrat or a person of color or a woman; I want them to do so because the person is actually good for the nation and the party.

I'd like voters to use their frontal lobes when choosing a candidate to support.

To use your metaphor, Obama can't mix my batter. He doesn't have the right strong, unapologetic, liberal socialist ingredients that will hold it together.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You made me laugh....
"I'd like voters to use their frontal lobes when choosing a candidate to support." That would be nice.

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
18. Do the Democrats have anyone with enough gravitus to be a serious challenger?
Edited on Fri Aug-19-11 10:44 AM by Johnyawl
A strong enough challenger to force Obama to the left?

Other then possibly Howard Dean, I can't thing of any.


edit for bad grammer
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC