Forbes - "Wisconsin Voters To Unions - 'We're Just Not That Into You'" - Did the Left Stay Home?

[TomCADem]

On this board, I repeatedly see people proudly talking about how they just aren't motivated to actively try to organize and win elections. They blame the Demcocrats, but make no effort to actively promote progressive Democrats at the primary level. At the general election level, they cop out and say that there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats. Finally, they either threaten not to vote at all or proudly say that they may vote Democratic, but that they will do so grudgingly. Well, at the end of the day, elections are about who wins, not who did not lift a finger because they had a very good reason in their mind for sitting on their butt during the election.

The corporate media has conditioned the American public to blame Democrats, and Give Republicans a free pass. Sadly, this narrative even permeates the left with threads attacking Democrats routinely appearing on Greatest Hits.

The radical right has proven that they can take over the Republican party and even boot out Republican incumbents who are not sufficiently conservative. Can the left meet the challenge and actively win elections, rather than just offer excuses as to why they are not motivated to lift a finger?

Interestingly, some folks on this Board have even posted links to GOP attack ads that distort Democratic positions saying that Democrats have left themselves open for it. By this same metric, by not winning the Wisconsin elections, we have left ourselves open to the charge that Wisconsin voters support Walker's union busting efforts.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/08/10/wisconsin-voters-to-unions-were-just-not-that-into-you/

But the turnout was spectacular. And, based on the results, Republicans were every bit as energized as Democrats.

GOP supporters had the backs of their sitting Senators, coming to the polls in big numbers to deliver the message that they too are as engaged and energized in the battle taking place in Wisconsin as the progressives and that is precisely what should have those who oppose the conservative agenda – in Wisconsin and throughout the nation – shaking in their boots.

The GOP was not just sending the message that they too know how to show up at the polls. They had a deeper message to send, one that was addressed to the unions. It was a message that came through loud and clear.

We’re (the voters) just not that into you.

[EFerrari]

1. The turnout yesterday was through the roof from all reports.

Maybe you should wait to factlessly blame the left yet again until you know what you're talking about.

[gkhouston]

3. For pity's sake, we're talking about gerrymandered Republican strongholds.

What Wisconsin did yesterday was amazing. Anybody trying to sell doom and gloom on the election results is underselling the Dem's accomplishments.

[EFerrari]

5. Yep. Apparently attacking the left is more imporant than celebrating its victories. n/t

[JVS]

27. It's a pattern here on DU.

Rioters in an undeveloped country--- Bomb the country and take out that leader.
Rioters in a developed country--- Bash some skulls!
Krugman advocates attention to unemployment--- The deficit is too big!
The left has a mitigated success against teabaggers--- You failed!

[tsuki]

30. There is more than one type of voter suppression. Dispair has worked in the past. nt

[EFerrari]

32. Not recognizing real hardwon victories also works. n/t

[tsuki]

42. I have been recognizing the real hardwon victory of the WI recalls

all day. All the money the Republicons poured into defending six safe state senate seats is a foreshadowing of the money the oligarchs are going to have to cough up. Next, defending Walker. Then the 2012 general election. 3% over $250 000 is soon going to look like a bargain. Go Cheeseheads.

[EFerrari]

44. WI Democrats did an awesome job!

:toast:

[EFerrari]

31. DU authoritarians untie!

[Cosmocat]

48. I have had my fill of this shitte ...

This is friggen Democratic Underground for crying out loud ...

[Dawson Leery]

2. Forbes, Fox Business, and CNBC: don't listen to them.

[TomCADem]

9. Exactly, Yet On DU Some Folks Post Links To GOP Attack Ads

So, if this is the new metric, that we should not do something that can be distorted by the right wing media, then what does failing to turnout and support Democrats accomplish?

It means that the corporate media will then celebrate losses as a mandate to implement a right wing agenda. Look at Govenror Walker in Wisconsin. Look at Rick Scott in Florida.

We need to recall Governor Walker and we need to win.

[EFerrari]

12. There was NO failure to turn out in this instance

just as there was none the other many times you've posted the same meme.

[TomCADem]

19. Well, then who are these folks on DU who proudly talk about how they will stay home...

...and not vote for or support Democrats?

I admit that I am making an assumption that DU is representative of the left, but look at GD. Do you see posts from people who are fired up to take back the Democratic Party and to win at the primary level and the general election level?

No, you see folks who are attacking the Democratic Party with posts from folks threatening not to vote and not to organize. So, my statements are based on the premise that DU, a progressive board, is representative of the left.

Unless, you can explain why this is an unsound premise, then I see no reason to depart from it.

[EFerrari]

28. Your assumptions about the future are not facts about the past.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Nice propagsnda

The two districts that flipped are HEAVILY REPUBLICAN...

But go ahead hippie punch.

[Broderick]

6. The unions spent 30 plus million I read

And worked hard to get the vote out. There was a great turnout. It isn't as easy at it appears because the other side is galvanized too. The net effect of all this recalling stuff in Wisconsin is going to likely end up as 1 seat after next week. Meanwhile, this distraction in Wisconsin, has pulled so much money and resources while other states under the cloak of not being spotlighted and they are doing more than what Wisconsin has done. It is proving to be one big distraction and a battle that has further divided. Just my take. We are becoming more polarized. As Obama said, elections have consequences when he won. Yes they do. And this distraction, and waste because we lost at the ballot box in the last mid terms further erodes our ability to work together.

[hlthe2b]

13. Are you kidding me? It was reported that $30 million was SPENT...

by outside groups, like Rove and Koch. The unions WORKED to get out the vote--very hard. Yes, they provided resources and undoubtedly spent considerable $$, but those big bucks were spent largely by the RW efforts to buy this election, met to some degree by progressive DEM ads from those who donated throughout the country.

Please don't disseminate that belief that the Unions spent $30 million. It just feeds into RW memes that try to mask the fact that outside RW monied interests came in like carpet baggers to buy the election. Though Wisconsin progressives and unions fought valiently, sadly, they were largely successful.

[Broderick]

18. It's in print.

Both sides spent enormous money. I am not feeding anything, but I know the cause and effect. Wisconsin became a diversion while other states moved forward and the net gain is likely ONE seat after next weeks elections. It further divided and polarized. Everyone can disagree, but I see it for what it is. A distraction and a diversion and a further division. The one net seat that was picked up can be attributed to a person that cheated on his wife too.

[hlthe2b]

25. Do you have a link that states the Unions unilaterally spent $30 million?

You seem to be implying the whole recall episode essentially was a waste? Is that what you meant to convey?

[Broderick]

36. In hindsight yes

It's all over google, but some say between both sides a mere 35M was spent. Doesn't matter. The results are what matter. After next week, 1 net seat gained. And a more polarized population. I think valuable resources in hindsight were spent, meanwhile it distracted everyone else to what other states are doing.

[hlthe2b]

37. Please explain why you think one or more seats will be lost next week...

Which one (s)? Most of us assumed the Dems were relatively safe.

[Broderick]

40. Heck next week the net gain might be zero for that matter.

Robert Wirch (Kenosha) and Jim Holperin (Conover) are both up next Tuesday. The feeling I get is that it ain't gonna be easy to win both.

[DUanonymous]

52. Somebody Actually Figured It Out

Broderick is right! This whole thing was a huge waste of money, energy, and attention.

I live in District 10 so I went through this whole process over the last several months. Let me tell you first of all it is extremely annoying to live in an area where an off season election is going on. In one day just because I was curious I answered every call that came in regardless of caller ID. It was 6 push polls in a row. In one day.

And last night did not go well for the democrats at all. And this post is going to be dry!!!

1) Dan Kapanke does not live in a Republican district. I went to school in La Crosse. The entire area is known as "Hippy Valley". The name comes from a migration that occurred in the early 70s when die hard hippies in cities like San Francisco decided that their movement was getting perverted in the city. They decided to move out to the country and live with nature. La Crosse county and surrounding area was a key destination for them because of its beautiful bluffs, rivers, and wildlife refuges. La Crosse is a also a heavy unionized city in Wisconsin and has 3 universities/colleges. Besides the way north west of the state the "arm pit" of Wisconsin is really the only other area of Wisconsin where Democrats perform well in rural areas. Also during redistricting it appears the GOP was expecting Kapanke to lose because they didn't try to add more GOP friendly territory to his district. If your wondering why Kapanke has won in the past its because he owns the baseball team in La Crosse and on a personal level people have tended to like him. Politicize the race in that liberal district and he was bound to fall.

a) Current District Map: <http://legis.wisconsin.gov/ltsb/redistricting/PDFs/Senate.pdf>
b) Redistricted Map: <http://legis.wisconsin.gov/ltsb/redistricting/Bills/sen148.pdf>
c) Kapanke 2008 Numbers: (page 16) <http://elections.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=15401&locid=47>
d) Obama 2008 Numbers: <http://elections.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=15385&locid=47>
>>La Crosse: 61% Obama Vernon: 60% Obama Crawford: 62% Obama
e) Bush/Kerry 2004 Numbers: {http://165.189.88.185/docview.asp?docid=1416&locid=47}
>>La Crosse: 53% Kerry Vernon: 53% Kerry Crawford: 55% Kerry

Approximate PVI of SD 32 ~ D+5


2) While Hopper is in a more conservative district he is very much disliked in SD 18. He barely squeaked out a victory in 08. Then he had an affair, got divorced and moved out of his house. He doesn't even live in his district any more and instead lives in Madison. He just has his mail sent to friends house still in the district. Needless to say his constituents wanted him out.

a) Current District Map: <http://legis.wisconsin.gov/ltsb/redistricting/PDFs/Senate.pdf>
b) Redistricted Map: <http://legis.wisconsin.gov/ltsb/redistricting/Bills/sen148.pdf>
c) Hopper 2008 Numbers: (page 9) <http://elections.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=15401&locid=47>


3) Myth: The GOP and their Groups outspent the Dem Candidates and their groups. We will never know the exact amount because of how much undisclosed spending their is especially when you talk logistical spending. But anybody that lived in these districts would tell you that the Dems had to be outspending the GOP at least 3 to 1 or the GOP is paying 3+ times more for everything.

a) Look at the ad composition for the races. They are approximately 5 to 1 Dem. <http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Alberta_Darling_recall,_Wisconsin_State_Senate_(2011)>
<http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Randy_Hopper_recall,_Wisconsin_State_Senate_(2011)>
b) Ad space in the Minneapolis/St. Paul market(not cheap) which covers my district was probably way more than 5 to 1 Dem to GOP and it was continuous(every commercial break). So the ad comparisons to other recall districts appear to hold with my experience.
c) Everybody that came to our door as well as several friends doors while I was visiting was for Shelly Moore. Ground game on Dem side was vastly superior.
d) Of the 3 dozen "push polls" I fielded over a few weeks approximately 70% of those calls were from Democrat interest groups. WEA and AFL-CIO being the two biggest spenders.

4) Myth Dems performed well in Wisconsin: Not quite. Besides taking a Dem district and firing a cheating a**hole the GOP outperformed their 08 numbers.

a) District 8: 2008 50.5% Darling 2011 Recall 53.7% Darling
Darling gained 3.2% from 08 vote
B) District 10: 2008 56.4% Harsdorf 2011 Recall 57.7% Harsdorf
Harsdorf gained 1.3% from 08 vote
c) Olsen and Cowles faced no opposition in 2008
d) Sources: now - <http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2011/by_county/WI_State_Senate_0809.html?SITE=AP&SECTION=POLITICS>
2008 - <http://elections.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=15401&locid=47>

5) Even if the Dems took 3 or 4 seats would it have been worth the money? Probably not!!! The next 2 most vulnerable districts were Darling in 10th and Olsen in the 14th. Both districts are very marginally Republican districts like R+3 and R+5 respectively. They are both being made even more Republican for the 2012 elections. Enough so that it would be extremely hard to hold the seats for any Dem. Furthermore the GOP is redistricted itself on offense in 3 additional districts in addition Holperin's district next week which is also becoming even more GOP friendly than it already is. Holperin is in the same position that Kapanke was. Nice guy in unfriendly territory.


Lesson: Wisconsin has been very conservative in local elections for the last 2 decades and less so as you go up ballot. The Dems wasted a ton of money to try to gain control of the senate for only 1 year ahead of an almost guaranteed loss of senate seats in 2012 due to redistricting. Instead of waiting until January they jumped the gun, wasted money, and annoyed a lot of people in 6 districts.

Full disclosure: I'm a right leaning independent. Just felt the uncontrollable urge to explain the unbelievably stupid tactical error that was made in Wisconsin.

[sybylla]

56. Right leaning independent. That explains it.

And it explains your dodgy rationalizations.

La Crosse is Dem - big time Dem. But Kapanke's seat includes one assembly seat in La Crosse and two outside of La Crosse that have been republicn for a long time. This senate seat has been held by a republican for 7 years, one who won re-election in 2008 despite the Obama wave.

Using Obama's numbers to justify calling it a Dem district is total bullshit. Obama won in my totally conservative nutcase county. That certainly doesn't make my conservative nutcase county Dem performing. You're not the first "right leaning independent" to try to use that statistic today.

Anecdotal evidence of spending by both parties doesn't qualify. Surely you can find some statistics some place. Like say http://www.wisdc.org/pro11recall.php where you can find the numbers from the most recent finance reports of the candidates themselves. If you did, you'd see that the republican candidates raised $2,758,172.00 and Dems raised 1,708,751.00. You'd also see that republican candidates still had $552,382 cash on hand while the Dems had slighly less at $502,340.

I realize you're new here, but we do expect to see some decent citations for your claims.

If Hopper was as disliked as you say (without any evidence to back that up) you'll need to explain how he almost won re-election.

Though you don't provide numbers or citations to numbers, I'll buy your "GOP outperformed their 08 numbers" if you'll buy that Dems did too. Which is an easy claim to make considering we had huge turnout. In fact, in some races we had an amazing turnout in Dem vote, considering in 08, there was no Dem challenger on at least one of those ballots. So your off the cuff rationale doesn't cut it without some actual numbers.

Lastly, calling Olsen's seat marginal - when it's been held by a repubican for 115 years - is laughable. And Darling has held her seat since 1992 - again getting re-elected despite the Obama wave in 2008. Getting re-elected in 1996 despite the Clinton wave. These are solidly Republican districts. Not just swing districts or marginal districts or whatever language you want to use.

Really. You can spend all day trying to rationalize that this was a bad play for Dems and you'll lose. The facts are against you.

[milwaukeelib33]

57. Here's a link

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/126591558.html

A week old, too. Spending continued right till the end. $30 million on our side is high. While I don't have another source off hand, living in WI I can attest that spending was reported as ~$20 million on both sides. A LOT of money to in essence win two STATE Senate seats. Not even enough to stymie the dictatorship of herr walker.

[gkhouston]

15. I'd be shocked if the unions weren't grossly outspent by Koch puppets.

Remember, the desired result from the Republican point of view was for no seats to change hands. They failed. Hell, they came fairly close to losing Olsen's seat, and it's been a Republican district since Grover Cleveland.

[Broderick]

21. But the point being

forget that maybe the other side spent enormous money, but the unions are not unlimited funding machines and after next week, a one seat net gain? Further division and further polarization. I am disappointed immensely in the outcome. hindsight is 20/20 though, and I can't say I wasn't excited with the efforts but now with the results I see what really happened. Wisconsin was a distraction and other states had no glare from the spotlight as they moved forward with draconian things. EVeryone was pointing to Wisconsin where a difference would be. But, that difference ends up wasting valuable money and resources for 1 seat. 1, after next week. And now that state is far more divided.

[gkhouston]

23. Walker's actions have divided the state, not the recalls themselves.

People either approve of Walker, or they don't. And there was actually fairly little MSM attention paid to Wisconsin throughout most of the protests and the recall procedure, so the spotlight you imagine is fairly dim. We'll see how next week's elections turn out next week. The people were entitled to this recall under Wisconsin state law, and I don't regret the money I sent them.

[Broderick]

24. Not asking you or anyone to regret efforts

But as Obama said, elections have consequences. They do.

[SteveM]

7. The fact of the matter is that the "Left" in this country is decimated...

And no one (including Obama, the Democratic Party, the MSM) wants ANYTHING to do with the "Left." And what is the "Left?" Anything the GOP wants to define it as. The political power forces in this country with the demonstrated ability to gain power and govern effectively:

(1) Center-right Democrats (may gain power only);
(2) Right Wing;
(3) Far-Right Wing;
(4) Shit-in-you-pants-and-go-to-heaven Right Wing.

There is no other demonstrated ability by any force, group, party, association, demonstration, or anything with the ability to gain power and govern.

The issue is whether progressives, liberals, the remnants of the "left," are going to do anything about it.

This is no surprise, and has been predicted by a number of people for years. The Far Right IS IN ASCENDANCY, and there is no meaningful opposition.

[0rganism]

20. +1

It took them 40 years to get their plan together, and another 30 to implement it, but oligarchs can afford to play the waiting game. Now their efforts are bearing strange fruit, fruit which will seem quite foreign to most of us -- more suited to a 3rd-world dictatorship than the democracy we heard about in elementary school.

As I see it now, the next 20 years will see rollbacks of every Great Society and New Deal program gifted us by the 20th century's populists, regardless of who holds the presidency. The longer it continues, the harder it will be for opposition to organize, and the firmer the right wing's lock on power will become.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Actually that is what will get the final counter reaction

to be honest And I am not looking forwards to the explosion. Like Britain, I fear we will have little choice.

[0rganism]

58. very likely, and nearly as scary

JFK: "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

The faux-patriotic petty bourgeoisie who support the dissolution of unions and the destruction of what little social welfare we have are forgetting that it is precisely unionization and partial socialization that prevented violent upheavals in the past.

OTOH, the real capitalists, I believe, do not care. Their goal is established and unchanged: loot the wealth of the USA as quickly and invisibly as possible. They already have their sights on greener pa$tures elsewhere, and fully intend to relocate before the shit really hits the fan here.

[SteveM]

60. Odds are the Far Right will lock in its power during the rest of my life...

Progressives and liberals will have to organize from the ground up, and at a minimum take over the Democratic Party. The biggest resistance the "left" will encounter will not be from the Far Right, however. It will be from the centrist pro-corporate state elements which now dominate the Democratic Party, and are acquiesced to by the declining MSM.

[flamingdem]

54. The ony thing respected in the USA is MONEY, and the left lacks $ nt

[SteveM]

59. One of the lessons I learned in my days of activism 40-50 yrs ago --

You didn't need to have more money than your opponents; you only needed enough. If you couldn't get enough volunteers to make up the footwork the other side pays for; if you couldn't get the talent to outsmart them and keep them off balance, then your message and candidate were not up to snuff.

[WCGreen]

8. It's bullshit noise from the right...

If they left was so lethargic, how in the hell did they almost take out three more deep red districts and win two...

Every one of these seats in question were at least deep purple, many deep crimson.

If they had to spend record amounts to save safe seats, what does that tell anyone.

You can only vote if you live in those district.

Mostly republicans live in those districts.

that we took two is a testament to the ineptitude of the right.

[gratuitous]

10. When you try and fail (sort of) . . .

You can always be left open to the possibility of a scurrilous attack. I don't think the remedy is to quit trying, though. The six Republican state senators up for recall were all in fairly safe seats, and as a matter of history, only 13 times in the history of the whole nation has a state elected official been successfully recalled by a vote of the people at a special election. That number is now 15.

So, was recalling only two of six Republican senators a failure? Are the voters of Wisconsin just not that into worker rights? Certainly our good friends at Forbes magazine would like the general public to think that. But the split in the Wisconsin Senate has gone from a 19-14 Republican majority to a 17-16 majority. Every Republican in the Wisconsin Senate has to stay in line on every vote, or their majority is imperiled.

Listen to Forbes if you so desire. This glass looks a little more than half full to me.

[gkhouston]

17. Our "good friends" at Forbes also think the "new normal" is

working for free in the hopes you'll get a job offer. (And no, I'm not talking about a summer internship.) That should tell you all you need to know about their feelings about labor.

[ellie]

11. I have been thinking about the results

and I am not surprised. People in this country elected Bush twice! TWICE! Even if you believe that the repukes stole it both times, there were enough people to vote for him to allow the repukes to steal it. People are greedy, mean, and selfish. So, of course they are going to vote for greedy, mean, and selfish people.

[Armstead]

14. If you're whacking DU..The answer ius that there has been unanimous support for Wis. Dems here

If this is another version of the "if you don't be quiet and acquiesce" you're just helping Republicans, I would point out that support -- usually very enthusiastic -- for the Wisconsin Democratic Party and all of the grass-roots people there has been basically unanimous here.

Thev're been cheered on consistently, by all "factions" here.

So to ascribe this to that is totally misleading and off the mark.

It also demonstrates that when Democrats act like Democrats in the positive sense, people here will rally behind them.

[marmar]

16. Geez, could Forbes be any more blatant?

nt

[JVS]

22. You're doing what you accuse others of. You're posting RW crap against the left.

Voters were into unions enough to overturn two red seats.

[Raksha]

39. Good point - I have to wonder about the motivation of anyone

who posts this kind of demoralizing RW crap on DU.

[B Calm]

26. I heard they're still deciding elections up there with a lap top. .

[tsuki]

29. The trolls have been out in full force today with two memes, All is Lost, and

Give Up. Cheeseheads appear to have rejected that advice and will continue with a recall of Gov. DropOut. Double down, so to speak.

Steve, I have one thing to say to you. Forget plundering Greek antiquities in the fire sale, just keep your checkbook out. Elections are about to get very expensive. The last general election in WI cost the Oligarchs 8 million. The recall for six safe state senate seats cost 40 million with a 66% success rate.

Yep, very expensive.

[AtomicKitten]

33. It is utter BS to accuse Wisconsin of sitting on their hands.

They took back two seats and that ain't nothing.

[flamingdem]

55. All their work will pay off down the line, energy cannot be destroyed says Einstein! nt

[DCKit]

34. The Forbes article is (shockingly) disingenuous.

Given the information they provided, you might that not only didn't we pick up two seats, but that (D)s actually lost seats.

[GusBob]

35. Of course they are not into the middle class and people who work

They have their tongues up the asses of the corporations

[Rex]

38. Forbes is a sellout garbage rag like the NYT or the WSJ.

Fuck those greedy bastards.

[Scuba]

41. That's their spin. Mine is that Dems had an historic victory, TAKING TWO REPUBLICAN SEATS...

...away from them.

[B Calm]

45. That was my thought too. . . Funny how they are spinning this like it's a republican victory.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

50. Part of it is there are too many Democrats who are disappointed...

....about what happened last night.....obviously, the goal was not met but it was an uphill climb. They should take pride in what they did achieve.

[Rex]

53. That is what I will always remember...we took two seats away from

incumbents in a heavily Republican area! HELL YA!

[pissed in WI]

43. voter turnout is not the problem

computer readout is the problem

WE CAN count paper ballots, I just know we can.

[ibegurpard]

46. it was PROGRESSIVES who even got this off the ground in Wisconsin

so enough shit about how they sat on their asses

[SoCalDem]

47. I think it's a case of "my team v your team" for many "low-information" voters

The sports vernacular has overtaken most of society, and i think too many people see everything as team v team...even if they won, they lose when it's applied to politics though:(

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

49. There are two less Rethugs in heavily Republican districts

THAT'S the real story, but Forbes isn't honest.

[fascisthunter]

61. neeme-nyim-nyum

seriously? That's not what happened, but you carry on with your goofy self.