For all of you wishing the DOW crashes to punish the rich

[nadinbrzezinski]

I would like to point something out. The people who will suffer, are people like my mother, eighty two and relying on the income from that.

It will be your neighbor.

It will be a friend...

It will be you.

Don't get me wrong... something needs to be done, but this is like using a machine gun against a fly...

This is where fISCAL policy comes in, the kind that right now none of us can get out of DC. This is thinks like oh HIGHER TAXES, much HIGHER taxes. yep 2% would be nice, but reality is... we need at least 20% higher marginal tax rates and... other fiscal policies.

But wishing for those who live OUTSIDE the economy who will make a buck either way to suffer though a crash... is just silly.

[we can do it]

1. Thank You. Many People Depend On Retirements Tied To Stocks

[spanone]

2. k&r...

[gateley]

3. "But I don't even own any stock!" To those who think they

won't be affected, Wall Street didn't "pay" for their fuck ups, WE did, and we would in this instance, too.

Good post, nad.

[AlabamaLibrul]

4. I don't wish for a crash,

but I find one quite possible with this austerity nonsense.

You shrink government, you shrink GDP in a magnified way (on the back of a horrible revised report the other day) and the market goes down.

They priced in a debt ceiling increase, but not the Satan Sandwich it came with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. agreed I will not be too shocked if we have an actual

DEPRESSION...

[Little Star]

65. They just haven't informed us yet.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. >Devil's Advocate

Who'll be better prepared to deal with crushing economic defeat?


Clue: It won't be Richie Richerton III

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Mr Richie can move away from here, you can't

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. When Richie leaves... more room for us.

That's the whole fucking point.

Sometimes Remora fish serve a purpose and sometimes they don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Sadly this not a solution

why they need to be taxed. That is the point. They will be able to survive this very well thank you very much... far beter than you me.

And what you are going to do with the next batch?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

21. Agree to taxing. Or toss 'em.

What's your point?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. None, it don't matter, it really doesn't

this anger against richie rich won't change things UNTIL THINGS CHANGE AT A MONETARY AND TAXING POLICY... take your anger at DC... that is where it belongs. THAT IS THE FRACKING POINT.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

31. Who do you think is pulling D.C.'s strings? That's the point.

It's not a personal attack on the wealthy. It's an attack on the policies that they're fomenting.

[LanternWaste]

71. It won't be my neighbor upstairs on a fixed income...

It won't be my neighbor upstairs on a fixed income and lots of her cash going towards prescriptions, either...

I imagine there are many clues...

[onehandle]

8. Who is wishing? The Stock Market DEFINES America.

Anyone 'wishing' for this crash can kiss my ass.

Starting with the UNAMERICAN Teabaggers.

[elleng]

9. It will indeed be all of us. Thanks

And its a world.wide thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/business/markets.html?hp

[CleanGreenFuture]

10. Look, nadin, I sympathize with your mother's situation and for those whose

income in retirement is tied to stock value.

However, if there is one thing I have gleaned from your posts since being here it is that you acknowledge that what we are really, really seeing is a fundamental collapse of this civilization. And in know that, you also know that the collapse is going to take some victims with it. You know the money will stop flowing to everyone eventually.

The key is to become more self-sufficient. And then many will still not make it. But the ones who do make it will have done so by measure of their own abilities to provide for themselves in a collapse scenario.

I think most people know that losing stock value affects more than just the rich. It's a bittersweet pill for some.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. And look at this, this way

The applauding this are not looking at the whole picture. And that is the point I am making.

Yes at a macro level we are seeing a civilization collapse, perhaps species extinction... that is a long trend... short trend,... there is a difference. And some people live a fantasy that if a stock portfolio drops and you happen to be Oh MR. Slimm, (one of the ten richest men in the world) it will affect your standard of living. It won't. That is the point.

[arcane1]

11. A crash would mean "the rich" can gobble us up for pennies

:scared:

[FogerRox]

35. And a very good chance that real democrats will take DC

as they did in 1932.

[Broderick]

13. Rec

[elocs]

14. The rich may be hurt, but they will not suffer.

They will have no trouble at all purchasing whatever food they choose, they will have plenty to pay for their homes, the price of gas will not bother them in the least. Their healthcare is safe and secure.

The rich would be hurt in their excess and plenty, but the regular Americans struggling from day to day will be terribly wounded in their need.

[Modern_Matthew]

15. There's a lot of people making millions shorting these stocks.

The ones that suffer are the investors who play the market to make a little extra on the side and get scared enough to sell at a loss.

It's never a loss until you sell.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Is Eric Cantor one of them? Probably.... n/t

[girl gone mad]

18. If we had reigned in the financial sector back in 2008..

rather than passing that garbage TARP and propping the zombies up with trillions in additional bailouts, we would be on the road to real recovery by now, in my view.

The focus should have always been on growing jobs and wages. The government wasted a lot of time and energy resuscitating parasites while the patient was left to bleed out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. The problem was not Tarp, but the lack of follow thorugh

the Bush Tax Cuts should have gone away. Hell, those tax cuts should have gone away with a return to Kennedy era rates, if not outright FDR rates, and this, since we are a globalized economy, should have happend in all major economies.

And Glass Steegal should have been put back in place.

Historians will not be kind to EITHER bush or Obama

[girl gone mad]

22. We only had one chance to get it right.

TARP was it. Once the pressure was off, we had no leverage.

[DearAbby]

25. +1

Especially when they are sitting on said money, and not investing it back into the economy. They took our money and ran with it.

[Warpy]

19. Not only that, but people who can weather the crash without noticing much

are going to cut their spending even more than the people who are watching the 401K tank and their retirements evaporate with it. That means any real crash in the stock market is going to cost jobs, and those lost jobs will cost more jobs.

The stock market crash will take a hell of a lot more than a few plutocrats with it.

[geardaddy]

23. K and R

[Maven]

26. Correct. The investor class know how to exploit stocks tanking to profit even further.

Which is a big part of the problem to begin with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Why our fiscal policy should include HIGH TAXES

that forces them to well. INVEST and create jobs.

[JoeyT]

29. K&R

It won't hurt the shitheels that really need to be hurt, and it will hurt a lot of people that don't deserve it.
Not a win, as far as I'm concerned.

[indurancevile]

30. i think it's crashing because the rich are "taking profits" as they say & pulling out.

knowing that their austerity machinations are going to produce a drop in unemployment & business activity.

ironically, the safe haven they flee to is us treasuries.

but i also think that if the middle & upper middle class's stocks drop, maybe they'll start getting a clue that it can happen to them, too. cause a lot still think they're specially wise people who nothing bad can happen to because of their clever "choices".

imo, the choices society as a whole makes are more important for people's lives in the aggregate than any individual "choices".

[Taverner]

32. Yep - the rich are all selling short now

And they're making good money

Just ask Eric Cantor

[L0oniX]

33. When it was going up I didn't see more jobs.

[FogerRox]

34. I see some who have a real punitive attitude towards the uber rich

translated into policy would be a terrible thing.

In the face of Declining oil and resources, we need to invest in the next generation of electrical power plants, solar wind, storage. We only have so much oil, and so much in resources to get it done, and there are significant time constraints. Its going to take money, and guess who has the money (capital)?

I'm all for a 70% top rate, cap gains and corporate tax increases, but lets be smart and give tax breaks for those who make smart investments in solar, wind, smartgrid, etc. Pre Reagan we had a 70% top rate, effective top rate of around 34%, many of those tax breaks were part of what we used to call Industrial policy, moving capital into emerging tech and markets in the US, Creating jobs in the US, staying in front of the technology curve meant those jobs paid well.

Some advocate for Federally guaranteed loans for renewable energy, or National standards to achieve a 20% in 20 yrs from solar and 20% in 20 yrs from wind. But the issue is Capital, and right now with existing tax policy, investing in commodities speculation gives one easily twice the return compared to building factories to make solar panels, so if we use tax policy to favor the smarter long term investment, we can end up with capital competing to get into renewables.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Why I said we need the fiscal policies we are not getting

yes we need higher taxes, on the upper 2%... it will encourage investment, Now TARGETED tax breaks on solar, yep, absolutely... for the same reason oil got them way back when... which reminds me, oil is a mature industry, they need to be removed.


What you are seeing is the eat the rich mentality that was common among the hoi polloi back in the day. People are getting radicalized.

[FogerRox]

47. Oil is a mature market and tends to overwhelm emerging markets

This needs to be accounted for in policy thoughts. Yup.

[Rex]

36. True and the uber wealthy can swoop in and by whatever they

want at pennies on the dollar! When the market drops, they get to 'vulture up' the scraps.

[Waiting For Everyman]

38. What you say is true, but the fact is that little people don't belong in the stock market.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Actually you are wrong

the little people have had a role to play in the Stock Market since it;s inception in the way back machine. Yes, I am talking from the time it started...

[Waiting For Everyman]

41. Take the risk, take the loss nadin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. You said they didn't belong there,

I just told you they have been there for ever,

Anyhow, you enjoy 401 K go up in smoke? It is not like pensions are the norm anymore.

Jaysus age, there are days.

[ozone_man]

58. Switch to treasury bonds.

There are many safer investments than owning stock. Wall Street is a casino there. Anyone who owns stock is a gambler at this point.

Sure, for many years, buy and hold was the way to go, but the 1990's saw out of control speculation, and with the elimination of Glass-Steagall in 2000 (Clinton), it became way overvalued. We have to return to the fair valuation of stocks, before buy and hold will be safe again. And that won't happen for a long time. The two year rebound in SM is artificial, generated by quantitative easing, deficit spending, hope, ... We can't deficit spend forever, eventually we come to our credit limit, and everything collapses. Wall Street and our 3% GDP growth mentality is based on a giant Ponzi scheme and investors are starting to get hip to that. Better to let the air out of the stock market now, then to keep pumping it up, creating a much bigger depression when we come to our limit. Borrowing is always the easy, but temporary fix, but it is only kicking the can down the road.

[anamandujano]

40. Do we really need to worry that any of our "wishes" or concerns

or common sense or trying to convince politicians to represent us will have any effect on anything?

The rich will eventually get hurt. Their doctors and nurses and caregivers may get tossed into the rubbish with the poor. They will have cars and gas but nowhere to go.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. You honestly think Carlos Slim

who just lost four BILLION dollars will miss a meal?

I don't.

[anamandujano]

49. No, but he won't have anyone to share it with.

My point is that the rich will have to suffer being waited on by the crushed and resentful.

My main point is that our thoughts and desires mean zip in this culture of those that only think about themselves.

Our only comfort will be to watch them turn on each other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. You really think that his household staff

is that resentful... you really believe that?

And they turn on each other... now that is a funny, a real funny. If anything that is a group that as a class is very united. We should take lessons.

[anamandujano]

55. What about my main point?

Our wishes cannot affect the market in particular, the politicians in general. If so, most of us would not be as stressed.

BTW, I never heard of Carlos Slim (I don't keep track of who's at the top) but suspect he has high blood pressure and dependent on those way below to keep him alive and enjoying his ill gotten goods.

I'm guessing his servants have family that are in dire straits.

When the rich succeed in dismantling everything, they will regret it. I know some that have been squawking (sp?) about some of the restaurants they frequented closing. This has been going on for a couple of years.

And yeah, they do turn on each other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. A people united, will never be defeated...

it is not just a saying.... and it is high time WE get some of that working class consciousness. No, you are not middle class, you are working class, I don't make any bones about it. WE ARE WORKING CLASS... we are aware of it. Many of my husband's fellow workers live under the delusion that they are middle class. And that is one reason why the people in this country can't find their ass with both hands and a mirror... though that is changing. (See Wisconsin)

And turn on each other... Let's just put it this way... I know a few of these types... self made men that have not just a few million... but one approaching half a billion... the level of unity and disdain towards the working people, would make your head spin.

And yes they will be "affected" when a few places they go to close.. and... that does not affect them really... they go to the next place. So, they miss a restaurant, that can be replaced... and sometimes it can be replaced by a favorite place in ANOTHER COUNTRY.

[anamandujano]

63. Actually, I'm lower middle (middle lower?) You get my drift.

I have been most of my life. I've always been lucky enough not to slip into lower lower, probably because I only had to worry about myself and a couple of cats.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Well it is high time to develop that CLASS UNITY

there is a class war ongoing, but I fear it is very one sided.

[Xithras]

44. My daughter starts college next year. Her savings are tied to the market.

If the stock market implodes, so does the value of her 529 plan (which has only recently regained the value it had prior to the downturn at the beginning of the reccession). That's 14 years of college savings out the window.

I can deduct the losses, but paying for med school is going to be a pain in the arse without any savings.

[me b zola]

45. How many mini crashes is it going to take for people to realize

...that if they are not a member of the investor class that they shouldn't have their retirement dependent upon the stock market?

Seriously. I don't wish harm to the millions of little people who have been suckered, it makes me sick to know what is being done to them. But I cannot--will not--support the very system that the wealthiest use to crush us.

There are no easy answers. Hell, Mr Z and I are flying by the seat of our pants. But it is past time to stop lending legitimacy to the very stacked game of three card Monte that is the stock market.



**stepping into flame-proof suit**

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. It i not wehther they are or not

but how many times does it take for people to understand that pensions are not what people have these days, and that PENSIONS are tied to it too.

What we need is the kind of FISCAL policy and laws that are NOT coming from DC.

[me b zola]

50. I realize that people have had their pensions stolen

...and in return have been told to put their money in the stock market. I watched over many years as the entire scam became legitimized.

I completely agree with you about policy, regulation, and laws that we need from the federal government to protect people from these predatory practices. I would begin by having every single person who had their pensions stolen made whole. But the people have lost control of the government, and until that is made right we won't be protected from powerful scam artists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. This is going to be one of those days...

[Jakes Progress]

48. The pigs who ruined our economy make even more money

when the stock market crashes. They engineer these things every so often to suck up the dollars from those who thought it was "safe" to get back in the market.

[me b zola]

52. They already have their media mouth pieces out

...telling people to ride it out, that it is a long term "investment". Ack, what's it going to take for people to stop taking advice from the very people who are screwing us?

On edit i want to be clear that i am not referring to this OP or other DUers when talking about "mouth pieces". I think us regular folk are trying to figure out how to freaking survive through this mess.

[Jakes Progress]

75. Jon Stewart already chewed up the wacko cramer for his lies

during the lead up to the housing meltdown. I saw him yesterday, playing shill for the fat cats again. He is a pathetic liar. Anyone who takes his advice is not a bright person.

[Vanje]

54. I did not cause this shit

I have not one thing to do with this shit.
I will NOT let anyone on DU blame me for this shit!

[anamandujano]

56. Tis true, no one listens to us or cares what we wish. If we were

powerful enough to affect the stock market, we'd most likely use our power to get a decent job or two.

[Vanje]

61. WE did not cause this shit

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. None is blaming you

What I am saying is that people CELEBRATING this down turn are really NOT looking at the big picture.

[Vanje]

60. People who are blaming people who are celebrating

are also not looking at the big picture!

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. So tell me what is the big picture?

I am serious here, because the big picture is that CALPEERS has a lot of it's funds in the Stock Exchange, as well as all other institutional investors. So a fall on that means shorter checks to retirees, or higher contributions by current workers or both.

[Vanje]

64. The big picture is

blame the people who caused this shit.
Do not blame those so disinfranchised that they/we actually have NOTHING invested in Wall Street.

We did not ruin your Mom's retirement.

We did not cause this.
It really does'nt matter how we feel about your investments. We do not affect those investments.
Spend your time posting to those who did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Alas I am not blaming anybody

I am just saying that people celebrating this are short sighted. And if you think that is blame, then guilty as charged.

I used my mother as an example of who will get hurt, because in the big picture Mr. Slimm will lose some sleep over losing 4 BILLION over four days, but that is all he will lose. Trust me on this, he will go to work driving his ten year old Sentra on Monday, will get food served to him and will still have a roof.

And the really big picture is that we all need to work for a CHANGE in DC in how the ECONOMY IS STRUCTURED and that means the kinds of laws and policies that are not coming out of DC... such as strengthening, not weakening the NLBR... and closing loopholes and yes, raising a few tariffs.

[Vanje]

67. I already worked for change in DC

What I chump I was.
I just don't believe anymore.
I'm sorry about your mom's retirement.
I wish her well.

Do you know what my retirement plan consists of?

Do not live that long.
I dont imagine I'm the only one here with an exit plan in lieu of a retirement plan.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Work for change in DC is not a thing you just give up

because it did not work this time.

In fact, that work should start to involve things like general strikes.

But hey... give up... that is what the GOP wants.. (as well as a high percentage of the DNC at this point)

And don't live that long is a nice rw talking point.

[Vanje]

70. Sorry

I'm just not in this game anymore.

Also ,It isnt the GOP that fucked me this time around. It was my guy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Then if you are truly giving up

then why bother?

That said, a GENERAL STRIKE, which is a political act, is not dependent on the parties on DC... and it is a POWERFUL weapon.

I don't expect you to get it. And as you said, you gave up. So there is nothing more to say...

Well except one thing... Obama might be full of shit... but he said one thing that he is correct, though not in the way he meant it. You want change, you are the change maker...

[Vanje]

73. General strike? I'm in

PM me when it happens

[Vanje]

74. Early exit

is not a talking point.
Its a corner that I don't remember painting myself into.