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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:28 AM
Original message
Dem posted map with targets in 2008? What say you?
The site that shall not be named links to a Democratic Leadership Council webpage which features a map that looks an awful lot like Palin's. Is this for real?


http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=12...
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Targets != crosshairs
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Targets, not RIfle Sights... no names and no threat, implied or not
For Gawd's sake, do you not see the difference? Dart targets, not rifle sights.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:30 AM
Original message
Those are not gunsights. Those are archery targets. Big difference.
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 10:31 AM by Ian David
A gunsight goes on something you want to kill.

An archery target is an inatimate object that is safe to shoot at.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. not gunsight markers.. Target Stores use a target..bars have targets for darts
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sun Jan-09-11 07:39 PM
Original message

" I will fight for you".. Let's hit them hard",

These (and others) are phrases used by dems during an election.. Of course a republican (Neal Boortz) claims to be angry at hearing these words uttered by Obama, but the facts show something different

Dems did not yell "KILL HIM" or "TRAITOR" when McCain's name was mentioned

Dems did not invade republican town hall meetings & shout down the speakers or storm the stage

Dems did not intimidate attendees by wearing/carrying guns & signs that threatened gun violence

I don't think any Dem stepped on a republican head

there may have been a few scuffles ( Franken was involved in one :)..),

Bullets ..real bullets have maimed & killed real people on the "left".. The righties may have had mussed hair & a wrinkled shirt here and there, but I don't think any of them fear being hunted/stalked, shot & killed by any of "ours"..
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. Looks like the Target Store logo
and no crosshairs.
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MorningGlow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. Lefties didn't see the target marks as an invitation to start shooting
A crazy right-winger did. And therein lies the divide.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. If someone who posted on DU did something violent; people could look back and see posts
that appear to advocate violence.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. you fail hard
with this.
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. If I fail by asking a question, then so be it. n/t
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Democratic map says, "Win these states."
Palin's map says, "Shoot these people."

--imm
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Exactly...
If there ends up being a nuclear attack that decimates one of those states, get back to me.

I highly doubt any unstable person would look at that 2008 map and think, "I can do that, I can take out that state". However, when you've got crosshairs coupled with the name of a specific person, the message that unstable person gets is very different.

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Riftaxe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
9. That's from 2004 (nt)
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Lifelong Protester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
10. That target looks like the precursor to the new Dem logo to me.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't see lists of names of people being targeted.
I see STATES. Not people.

Oh and someone tried to make this same point last night, and the topic was deleted.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Also there is no mention of reloading and none of those politicians were shot. n/t
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
52. ...



The hairsplitting here is getting ridiculous.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
12. Wait a minute to be honest here I remember a big fuss a few
years ago when a right winger put the same target over Bill Clinton's face.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. I don't see any names listed, nor do I see any violent rhetoric about reloading, and
none of those politicians were shot.

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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
14. Heh. I blame the department store "Target".
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. We're colluding with Wal-Mart, ya know. nt
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. Targets are not crosshairs.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:36 AM
Original message
Those are map markers.
There is no gun association at all.

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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. When di the DLC
Hold town meetings and rallies all over the country using this to rile up the left and get US to town hall meetings with guns?

And this is not really news - it was being discussed on MSNBC this weekend.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. Where's the "reload", "armed &dangerous" and "2nd Amendment remedy" rhetoric?
I don't see anger, encitement, and vitriol here. Nor do I see fervent anti-government screeds.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. Amongst the HUNDREDS of examples of violent RW rhetoric and actions, THIS is all they've got?
A Dem map targeting entire states for victory?

That pretty much speaks for itself, does it not?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. How many of the targets have been shot?
Sometimes, it's about the audience.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
23. Crosshairs are for aiming what is doing the shooting, almost always a gun
Targets are what you are aiming at.


The "crosshairs" that Palin used could also have been any of these:




For example:

Sighting down a rifle with iron sights, probably a Garand:




Sighting through a rifle scope:




It's all the same... aiming a gun.
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Mojeoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. Yup. People don't shoot at bulls-eyes with guns.
They use the cross hairs of their guns. In the shooting galleries that the police department uses, they don't have colorful bulls-eyes. Colorful bulls-eyes are for Archery ranges.
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
24. This is a RW red herring that they're using to confuse the issue.
It is and always has been extremely common to use language like "targeting" in politics. That's not what sensible people are objecting to.

The first difference between this map and Palin's is that this map targets states whereas Palin's targets individuals. But even that isn't the issue. The issue is that Palin's map was presented in the context of dozens of other comments by her and other RW luminaries talking about politics in terms of violence, war, and revolution. "Don't retreat, RELOAD," for example. "Second amendment remedies." "If ballots don't work, bullets will."

How many times did you hear people at Obama rallies in 2008 shouting "Kill him" about John McCain? Because that's what they were yelling about Obama at McCain rallies. How many liberals turned up at GOP town hall meetings in the summer of 2009 carrying signs that said things like "We came unarmed -- this time"?

It's not JUST Palin's map that's the issue here -- her map is merely one high-profile chapter taken from the volumes of eliminationist rhetoric that RW leaders and followers have been spouting since Barack Obama became the Democratic nominee.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box
I think that's how the revolution is suppose to happen. Of course, they had just come off of holding the House for 12 years and the Senate for nearly as long, as well as stealing two elections for themselves.


I agree that the People are not being listened to, but the problem is not limited to deaf Democrats.
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
25. You are now in the crosshairs
of the character assassins. Right wing troll accusations are coming.
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
55. Laughing. I expected that and it's fine.
I want to know what people here think and am being informed.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
26. They are both stupid charts. Neither one caused this shooting. nt
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. +1
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. no rhetoric causes anything
but it can facilitate it.
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LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Rhetoric to a crazy person is like alcohol for Lindsay Lohan
It ALWAYS leads to disaster.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. the illness caused it. the rifle scope, lock and load, kill liberals incites... nt
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Rhetoric doesn't kill people,
not so thinly veiled references to murdering those you disagree with on ideological grounds interpreted by mouth-breathing slobs kill people.

When some lunatic plays Pin the Bullet on the Congresswoman, it's fair to ask who spun them around and shoved them towards the target.

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Mojeoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. Rhetoric can halt decent people from following their good conscience.
They shut up and figure that it's useless because of all the shouting.
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ctaylors6 Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. +100
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. No, but Palin's incites violence.
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joe_sixpack Donating Member (655 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
60. +2
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Chorophyll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
30. The targets seem to be on entire states,
not on individual people. I mean, we have a store called Target whose logo is a target and we understand (well, most of us do) that we're not supposed to throw darts at it.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. ...
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 02:36 PM by woo me with science


Seriously, the hairsplitting here is getting just silly.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. it is a target that cannot hurt. looking down a rifle scope aimed at a person is DEATH. see
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 01:22 PM by seabeyond
the difference, cause for me, it is HUGE

if they held crossbows at someone that would be bad. showing a target does not imply kill. holding a gun implies kill
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Putting a bullseye type target and using "targeted Republicans" might
be meaningful to some.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
33. Those are roundels. Roundels are nice targets. Definitely not the same as crosshairs.
:crazy:
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
34. I say there's no comparison between putting a target on a state and crosshairs on individuals
Not to be snarky, but do you think that firing arrows into Arkansas is the same as firing bullets at a member of Congress?

OK, maybe that's a little snarky, but there's a huge difference between a target and a target acquisition device.
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lib_wit_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Also, as has been stated quite convincingly, it's mot just the cross hairs map.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/01/lets-get ...

Let's Get This Straight

Posted by Melissa McEwan at Monday, January 10, 2011

Both sides are, in fact, not "just as bad," when it comes to institutionally sanctioned violent and eliminationist rhetoric.

An anonymous commenter at Daily Kos and the last Republican vice presidential nominee are not equivalent, no matter how many ridiculously irresponsible members of the media would have us believe otherwise.

There is, demonstrably, no leftist equivalent to Sarah Palin, former veep candidate and presumed future presidential candidate, who uses gun imagery (rifle sights) and language ("Don't Retreat, RELOAD") to exhort her followers to action.

- snip -

There is no leftist equivalent to Glenn Beck, host of a long-running nationally syndicated radio show, former host of a show on CNN and current host of a show on Fox, best-selling author, DC rally org

Thanks to this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
35. And they also use phrases like "targeted republicans", but not 'republican seats.'
One can also find that the dems consider themselves "behind enemy lines".

With the bullseye type targets, and phraseology such as listed above, it would appear that both sides have done similar things, but with slight differences.

Saying now "But we didn't mean it that way" does not change the overall picture. Weasels and evildoers are not limited to any single group. It just doesn't happen that way.
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I don't see the phrase 'targeted Republicans'. Is it in this article
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 01:52 PM by NoGOPZone
or one of the articles linked on that page? In Marshall's article I only see the phrases 'targets winnable states', 'likely targets for Democratic gains', 'targeting these states', 'target states', 'states should be ripe targets' in the "Enemy Lines" section and 'targeting swing voters'.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Here's a link
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 03:09 PM by Obamanaut
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. OK, so it was a different document
My personal view is that the phrase itself is not inciteful, but it could might be depending on how it is used with other language or symbols.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. edited earlier post (#44) to include another, different, link nt
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 03:12 PM by Obamanaut
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. "both sides have done similar things, but with slight differences"
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'm not too sure of any politicians assassinated by a long bow.
Looks like arrow targets... the kind used when I was in SCA.

I'm not too sure of any politicians assassinated by a long bow.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
40. I don't recall them telling people to bring assault weapons to rallies.
Maybe I missed a memo.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
41. In retrospect I don't think Dems should've used those targets either
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 02:06 PM by RamboLiberal
or the "Behind Enemy Lines" in the caption.

Just like KO did a "mea culpa" in his special comment.

If we are going to call out the Right then let's not give them anything to point back & say you do it too!
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
46. Targets aren't crosshairs.
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 02:52 PM by Lucian
And there's no names associated with those targets. I don't see implied violence like I did on Palin's map.

Argument fail from those on that site.
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fadedrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
48. Let the DLC know how you feel...
They're always trying to act like Republicans. Shame on them.

I hope the DFA, which I support financially, has better sense and better taste.....
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. Done. n/t
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fadedrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. Send an email to the DLC...
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
59. They look like dart boards to me
At worse, archery targets

Not gunsites.

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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
61. The difference, of course, is in the way things are worded.
As you can see on that site, NO ONE is calling for their followers to RELOAD (I guess so they can kill Dems) and using wording to suggest going out and KILLING SOMEONE. No where on that map or in the article does the wording turn into assassination/malaise toward the repukes...just bullseye targets of certain states.

So are we to infer the Dems are telling their voters to go out and bomb (I guess from stolen military aircraft) certain states!? Ridiculous and no comparison.
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trayNTP Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
62. Dart games are different from gun scopes. Besides, the supporting rhetoric matters more.
Edited on Mon Jan-10-11 04:40 PM by trayNTP
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
63. The huge difference is they are NOT targetting named individual Members of Congress
Saying that certain States are targets for political gains is NOT the same as putting crosshairs on an individual House District together with the name of the Member you are trying to remove from office.
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