I think invoking the 14h amendment would not fly for this reason:

[Blue Meany]

Section 8 of the Constitution

"Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;"

Not making the debt payments would seem to be a violation of the 14th amendment, which affirms that loans taken out for Congressionally-authorized expenditures are valid and will be paid. But it does not give the President the authority to borrow money to make those payments. Moreover, if it did reach the Supreme Court, they might rule that the only debt that is not protected under the 14th amendment is the Social Security surplus, since it is not "public debt" but is money the govt. owes itself. Then that is how the "debt crisis" would be solved.

[gateley]

1. Apparently Obama figures it won't fly, either for a similar or

political reasons, because the word is he won't go for it.

I wonder if that's true -- he surely wouldn't put it out there until the last moment, I wouldn't think.

[ZombieHorde]

2. Bush would have done it in a second, and no one would have done shit about it. nt

[Blue Meany]

3. True, but Republicans would use this to impeach Obama...n/t

[ZombieHorde]

5. Maybe, but there are worse things, such as cuts to SS. nt

[kenny blankenship]

8. Which would go nowhere.

Obama addresses nation and averts financial catastrophe by instructing Treasury to hold auction schedule more than doubling the normal bond issuance, pushing any chance of default past the upcoming election.

House moves swiftly to impeach Obama on its own finding that he violated the 14th amendment and the Constitution's separation of powers. Senate dismisses case first thing next morning. President Obama flies to New York to accept honors and nationally televised ticker tape parade the same afternoon. Crisis over. Obama approval at 95%. "He kept us from defaulting!" Reelection declared "a LOCK!" by top 3 pollsters. Leading Republican candidate drops out of GOP primary race.

Oh by the way, despite all the talk of "fears" of default out there. The US just held a Treasury auction of $29 billion worth of 7 year bonds today, which went swimmingly. In fact, the yield of 2.250% was lower than the previous rate that the US had to pay on 7 year notes in June. The 10 year note also declined. Meaning that institutions who buy US government debt do not see any greater problem for the US actually meeting its obligations than they did in June or May.

[Fool Count]

11. What is missing in this scenario is that the Treasury

auction, that Obama so boldly instructs Treasury to hold, attracts no bidders making everything that was supposed to follow moot and void.

[kenny blankenship]

12. Sorry there's just NO EVIDENCE that demand for Treasuries is about to dry up.

NONE WHATEVER. Even in the throes of debt ceiling debate deadline before default DDay minus 5. The crowd still wants what Uncle's got to sell. So much so that they don't insist on any risk premium.

[Fool Count]

13. The crowd certainly still wants what Uncle's got to sell.

Provided the Uncle does it legally and the goods couldn't be declared a contraband by the courts two weeks later.
Otherwise, not so much.

[kenny blankenship]

14. Most of the rest of the world can't even comprehend that there's any problem

Because outside of 60 turdknockers in the House, there isn't any problem.

All Obama has to do is put his George Duhbya Bush face on, and say Wut, yew think ah give a shit? Yew can't make me.

And, Walla, there is no problem. He doesn't have ANY trouble doing this with unConstitutional police state surveillance of citizens, with indefinite detentions, or stupid and illegal wars, or with waiving his duty to prosecute major fraud on Wall Street and the warcrimes of his predecessor. He suddenly got moral? I don't think so. Wall Street would actually love him to pieces if he did this. But it requires pissing off Republicans. They go along with all the continuations of Bush Admin policies listed above. This one they would set themselves on fire over. But the angrier they got, the more popular Obama would become.

[Fool Count]

17. The rest of the world most definitely knows that there is a problem.

I am now in Australia, and US debt ceiling/default is all their TV business commentators would talk about. It is also a fact that international investors
have been losing money on US Treasury bonds for over a year due to USD depreciation in respect to other world currencies. If anyone may think that
they will rush the auction to buy legally questionable US debt, with a court decision which could declare that debt void pending, I suggest they think
again.

[kenny blankenship]

18. well they aren't taking your advice.

Maybe you could go into a different business?

[Fool Count]

19. Which advice of mine are they not taking?

As far as I know there were no legally questionable US bonds issued and auctioned so far, am I wrong?
I am not advising anything, I am just stating that US bonds issued without full congressional authority
will find no international takers. That is the simple statement, which can be easily confirmed or denied,
should the President decide to go the 14th amendment route. His unwillingness to use that option
indicates that he may be in agreement with my opinion.

[LaydeeBug]

4. But the Congress DID lay the excises..now it's a matter of paying the bill that THEY created. This

is not new spending. This is a fake fight.

[Blue Meany]

9. I agree with you, Congress must pay the debt or they are in

violation of the constitution. But that does not give the President authority to unilaterally borrow: that Constitution explicitly gives that power to Congress. He could, perhaps, take them to court to force the debt to be paid.

I think that issuing trillion dollar platimum coins is legally more viable, and I don't see how Congress could stop him, since they cannot agree on anything at the moment.

[LaydeeBug]

15. he is not borrowing. He is authorizing payment. THEY ALREADY BORROWED IT nt

[ashling]

6. " Section 8 of the Constitution" ?

Your citation is incorrect: You forgot to mention "Article 1"

[whosinpower]

7. You already said what is true

Not making the debt payments would seem to be a violation of the 14th amendment, which affirms that loans taken out for Congressionally-authorized expenditures are valid and will be paid.

So - the 14th amendment is already in play - Congress refuses to recognize it.

But - here is another question - is the President also under the constraint of the 14th amendment?

Let me pose a scenario...if Congress and the Senate sent a CLEAN debt ceiling bill to the president to sign - and he REFUSED - would he not then be breaking the 14th amendment?

Congress writes bills and authorizes payments of such. The debt is already there. They now refuse to pay it by raising the ceiling on borrowing - even though THEY WERE THE ONES TO AUTHORIZE the payments. So they are sending the president contradicting messages as if it is his fault alone that the debt ceiling is reached. Now - they will not send him a bill to raise the ceiling unless they gain favours for such...and if they don't - and the government defaults - President Obama, along WITH the Congress violates the 14th amendment.

He cannot raise the ceiling unilaterally. But, he also cannot violate the 14 amendment. There are other options available that would render the debt ceiling crisis a moot point - but if Obama were to do one of those options - he would most certainly face impeachment. Although....if he was forced to do so to save the nation, and by extension the entire world economies - his impeachment would fail and the GOP would become extinct for their treachury.

Let that sink in. President Obama cannot legally raise the debt ceiling without a bill to sign that passed the house and the senate. Congress failing to send him a bill would mean that they violated the 14th amendment. And President Obama - by not doing what he can to stop a default, would also violate the 14th amendment.....the treasury could sell government held property and land to the FED for the required amount needed to get the money needed to offset default - and buy it back later for a dollar. It would avert a government shutdown and allow Congress more time to come up with a debt restructuring plan that would actually pass....and if they fail to do so....2012 is right around the corner, and there are heads that will roll. If he did this, most certainly, he would face impeachment.

I know I can see the posters out....I risked impeachment to save the nation - and the nation is saved.

[elleng]

10. Prez would not be borrowing, but honoring 14th amendment's statement:

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.


In Perry v. United States (1935), the Supreme Court ruled that under Section 4 voiding a United States government bond "went beyond the congressional power."<49>

Section 5, the last section, Section 5. 'The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article'
was construed broadly by the Supreme Court in Katzenbach v. Morgan (1966).<50> However, the Court, in City of Boerne v. Flores (1997), said:

Any suggestion that Congress has a substantive, non-remedial power under the Fourteenth Amendment is not supported by our case law.<51>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_th...

[LaydeeBug]

16. yup yup nt