Sorry to be a broken record, but this is all just too surreal

[MannyGoldstein]

Social Security is about to get slashed to reduce deficits.

But it adds zero to the deficit, and cannot add to it by law.

I am just blown away that in my country, millions of senior citizens will be thrown into poverty because a few rich fuckers paid off politicians to grab our retirement savings.

Please return to your regular programming. I'm in a bad mood.

[Poll_Blind]

1. Manny, you keep posting that and I, for one, will keep reccing it!

You could post it every day as far as I'm concerned. It's that important.

PB

[freedom fighter jh]

86. Same here nt

[William769]

113. Ditto.

[bananas]

126. Keep posting and don't apologize. nt

[COLGATE4]

143. +1 (x 1000). Keep telling it like it is, Manny!

[theFrankFactor]

165. +1

[grahamhgreen]

2. This is my regular programming! K&R

[jtown1123]

121. Please call 1-800-998-0180 to reach your reps & oppose the Chained CPI

it only takes a few minutes: http://youtu.be/MPeEejtoT_o

[truedelphi]

206. Yeah, it only takes a few minutes to be on hold

And then laughed at.

My time is better spent gardening.

[Skittles]

3. Obama folds like a lawn chair

big fucking surprise

[Dept of Beer]

36. He hasn't folded yet.

I hear that he is learning 17th dimensional origami.

[WinkyDink]

93. It's not folding; it's a plan.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bahrbearian]

136. +1 Perfect!

[Jackpine Radical]

160. I think you may be misinterpreting the meaning of the post

to which you're responding.

As in, maybe someone is following a plan to gut SS rather than being driven to it. At least that's how I took it.

Nevertheless, that post is quite ambiguous in its meaning, and your take may be right.

[WinkyDink]

203. Let me clarify, then: I find it laughable to think the Pres. is being manipulated like a lawn chair,

when he APPOINTED Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, two SS enemies and proud of it!
Where they randomly chosen without forethought?
Is Obama to be considered UNAWARE of SS's NON-role in the debt?

And let me be even more frank, to quote "The Godfather"'s Jack Woltz, I don't care WHO is sitting in the Oval Office; ANY reduction in Social Security, REGARDLESS of tax increases (there is no "quid pro quo," as money taken from Seniors is money taken, no matter who ELSE'S finances might get reduced), is my permanent line in the sand.

The New Deal defines, for me, being a Democrat. Others can disagree, certainly Rahm Emanuel would, but I'm....entitled to this once-universal opinion.

[Lasher]

236. Me too, Winky.

We New Deal Democrats are being thrown under the bus. I thought I'd never live to see it.

[Jackpine Radical]

250. I guess we're supposed to

call it the Old Deal now.

[theFrankFactor]

166. The PLAN is to Keep Democrats Believeing That Obama is a Democrat...

By the definition one can make by listening to posters here at DU... he just might be!

[truedelphi]

208. Except a lot of "real" Dems are

A lot less concerned about DU and all its trolls these days.

The Democrats on this board who understand (for instance) what FDR was about, and understand what economic policies mean, or how the wars are mostly about profit, are unwinnable and unending with money we need to be a real nation, those people have other things to do than deal w/ trolls.

When an OP suggesting that Roebrt F Kennedy Jr would make a great candidate for president in 2012 is un recced off the board, ya gotta wonder...

[ooglymoogly]

294. +1 nt

[Horse with no Name]

4. Me too Manny

And this whole theater surrounding it pisses me off.

"Extraordinary measures"

"It was the only thing we could do".

"Republicans forced us to do it".


And the slew of excuses that the paid operatives are getting ready to hit the internets with...because this most certainly cannot be Obama's fault....:eyes:

I believe the deal has been done for weeks...but the Dems have to play it out so they can make excuses and the republicans have to play it out for the teabaggers.

[AndyTiedye]

16. That is Absurd

If there were already a deal, they wouldn't be roiling the markets with all this uncertainty.
Cantor would not have invested in the Ultrashort ETF that pays off big if we default.

And the slew of excuses that the paid operatives are getting ready to hit the internets with..

One could say the same about those who are trying to convince us all that Obama is no good, that he is a sell-out, etc. etc.
Who benefits by putting such claims out there? If it is true, we're fucked (though even then any of the Repigs in the
running would fuck us worse). If it is not true, it serves no purpose except to help the Republicans win next year.

[rhett o rick]

50. I think Rahmbo said it more succinctly. "liberals should sit down and shut up".

Is that what you are saying?

[JDPriestly]

60. The purpose is to let Obama know that he is going to have

a tough re-election campaign next year and to hopefully persuade him to announce that he will not run.

If Obama would just say he won't run, we could get a better Democratic candidate for next year -- someone who will not abandon seniors and kids in school.

[Enthusiast]

66. He's gonna get creamed if he cuts social security.

Real Democrats don't allow social security and medicare anywhere around the 'table'.

[CoffeeCat]

109. If he cuts Social Security...

...then I find absolutely no incentive to vote. What would I be voting for...more cuts in
Social Security? More hope and change?

It's utterly ridiculous.

If a Democrat can cut Social Security, then why would we even need a Democratic party?

If it's Perry vs a Social-Security cutting, corporate kow towing Obama--then voting is
not the answer. The answer is "We The People" getting up off their asses, protesting and
doing something revolutionary about the complete corporatization of BOTH parties.

I all ready tried to solve the slow slide into Fascism--by voting. For Obama. That
hasn't worked. In fact, the corporations only gained power in the past couple of years.
BP got away with murder--literally. The banks are blowing up another bubble as many
former bankers work directly with Obama. Corporations pay little or no taxes. Obama
handed the health-insurance lobby a pen and told them to write the healthcare bill--which
left the greedy mega-companies at the center of our system with their profit-centric model.

And now, a Democratic President is willing to cut Social Security--when it does nothing to
relieve the debt/deficit? Those Wall Street bastards couldn't get it done with Bush, but
now they're getting it done with Obama? Frickin insulting.

It's all one big, sick joke. But please...go out and vote! :eyes: Our system is broke
when voting doesn't work.

[Enthusiast]

181. I'll vote

for some third party candidate. If enough of us move to a third party in the presidential race maybe that party will become viable over time. Of course I will lend my support to and vote for all the Democratic Party candidates I can, except for Obama.

[AndyTiedye]

185. That Condemns Us to a Generation of Repiglickin Rule While You Build Your 3rd Party

There wouldn't be anything left by the time your third party got off the ground.
The Repigs would have picked us clean.

[Enthusiast]

188. I'll just say it.

If you elect Obama you are electing a Republican. He is as Republican as his friend Dubya Bush. I understand how hard that is to accept. I had a very hard time with it myself.

The Republicans and fake Democrats have already picked us clean. How do you think those deficit numbers got to where they are?

[SSDA]

274. Bingo.

Same crap. It's like living through ,,,,,, 3rd term

[firehorse]

276. bingo +2 ... Obama is Bush 3rd term

I finally got out of denial myself.

And I'm grieving that we got grifted and bought into the long con, grieving that someone who calls himself a democrat and asked us to have faith that he would make changes that democrats wanted, threw one of the basic principles of our party under the bus. It's a bitter pill to swallow, yes Obama is carrying on with Bush 3rd term. And the rest of us will pay the price for a long time coming.

I wonder what is next.

[INdemo]

281. Well the Democratic party is our party..we can nominate a

challenger to Obama who calls himself a Democrat and is not ..He is a Republican..Its been a night mare 2Years+ with Obama..He lied to us he is just one big bullshitter and we bought into his lies...We can take our party our by nominating real Democrats and supporting them..Take a look at Obama's major campaign contributors so far and tell me he is a Democrat,,Look at the amount he has received from Wall St donors..
I get really tired of hearing if we challenge Obama with a real progressive we automatically lose..Dont think so..If Obama runs again the Democrats lose because they just wont show up at the polls..
..We knew Bush was a corporate puppet but what we didn't know was that Obama would be a corporate puppet just as Bush was

[RebelOne]

252. If Obama allows social security cuts, he has lost my vote.

But I will not vote for a third party or a Republican. The only Democrat I would vote for would be Dennis Kucinich if he decides to run.

[whathehell]

259. I agree.....That's my line in the sand....No "democratic party" with cuts to SS and Medicare

[WinkyDink]

118. He has clearly signaled, even invoking his family's names, that he is okay with just one term:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/56917.html

As his reelection campaign ramps up, President Barack Obama said his family is “not invested” in a second term in the White House.

“Michelle and the kids are wonderful in that if I said, `You know, guys, I want to do something different,’ they’d be fine,” Obama said in an interview with NBC News that aired Tuesday morning on “Today.” “They’re not invested in Daddy being president or my husband being president.....

But Obama says there are some days “where I say that one term is enough,”

[obxhead]

135. I say one term is enough as well.

Lets get a Dem in the WH before we lose everything.

[marew]

242. Amen!!! n/t

[defendandprotect]

154. And that would make his attacks on Social Security/Medicare even more questionable, imo ...

Destroying programs which are the corner-stone of the Democratic Party would be

his accomplishment?

Certainly the public would not look on those acts as something to be "rewarded" with

their votes or good sentiment -- !!

Indeed, imo, it would destroy the Democratic Party --

and I don't see how any elected Democratic wouldn't understand that --

but -- are any of them speaking to those issues --



... other than the 77 members of the progressive caucus in the House?


We're also aware that our ex-presidents have gone on to high earnings post their service

in the White House -- didn't Ike have to depend even on a fund to purchase a home for

himself to retire to? Things have certainly changed since then --

I'd also mention again that secret Swiss bank accounts are a threat to democracy --

[Enthusiast]

183. He just might pull an LBJ on us.

Funny that he would be good with the single great accomplishment of cutting the New Deal as a legacy. Seems "odd" that a Democrat would feel that way.

[ncpmd]

216. From his lips to God's ears

May he have enough sense to be a one term president and let a real progressive leader, heck a true DEMOCRAT, be the next president of the United States.

[SammyWinstonJack]

219. Maybe his reward for 'fixing' social security is a 'fixed' election, so he probably isn't that

worried about getting creamed. :shrug:

[TBF]

269. Cutting social security will cost him reelection. Maybe at this point he doesn't care -

he doesn't have to worry about his retirement pension. He'll be off to speaking engagements ... what does he care.

[defendandprotect]

69. Let's start throwing up some names ---

Preferably democrats who haven't been pre-bribed and pre-owned by corporations --

or Koch Bros. DLC --

[JDPriestly]

77. I'm impressed with a number of people. Couldn't name them all.

Van Jones is great, very open to new ideas and less artificial than Obama.

Then there is Bernie Sanders who caucuses with Democrats

Russ Feingold, Dennis Kucinich, Marcy Kaptur, Xavier Becerra, Sheldon Whitehouse (perfect name for the White House, don't you think?), Alan Grayson, Sherrod Brown and that is just a beginning. There is probably a perfect candidate that I would never think of.

[marions ghost]

83. Oh sure

As much as I'm not happy with Obama's record, I don't think you're being realistic. It's already done. Obama is the candidate. But it does make sense to project for the future and identify and support more liberal Democrats. Makes sense to take stock. As for the "perfect candidate'--after what we've been through with Obama, that rings hollow.

The fact is, we Liberals are not represented much at all in this obsolete two-party system as it currently stands. We will be shunted to the side every time. Yes there are good candidates out there, but they have a snowball's chance in 2012.

[defendandprotect]

150. Maybe Obama is the candidate -- given his record, however -- .

imo, that's a "maybe" -- especially given current dealings re budget SS/Medicare --

I don't see those two issues as "bottom lines" -- because Obama removed himself from

my trust the day he picked Koch Bros. DLC Rahm Emmanuel as his first choice entering

the White House! The "team" comprised of those who created the meltdown ended any

trust whatever in him. Continuing the wars -- and the back room deals with Big Pharma

and private H/C industry which trampled single payere/MEDICARE FOR ALL --

all of these things long before now would have prevented me from voting for Obama.



Imo, we need democrats from outside the party who have not been pre-bribed and pre-owned

by corporate money --

And there are tons of those --

[marions ghost]

177. What we (Liberals) need

and what we'll get are two different things. There won't be any viable alternatives to Obama in 12. Doesn't hurt to use the opportunity to push for candidates we'd rather see. But in the end we will have no choice so it's really just an exercise.

I'm in agreement with you in being disappointed in Obama. But I don't think we Liberals can fix the system by throwing contenders up for the presidency in 2012. We should think beyond that date, tho. As for pre-owned--how do you ensure against that? It seems to be a pre-requisite for the job in a corrupt society. After Obama, I don't think you'll get as many people to believe in any Democrat's ability to represent Liberals.

[defendandprotect]

228. Any time you vote for the "lesser evil" you move the party and Congress to the right -- !!

You always have a choice -- especially if you vote your conscience.

I'm in agreement with you in being disappointed in Obama. But I don't think we Liberals can fix the system by throwing contenders up for the presidency in 2012.

If Obama negatively impacts Social Security and Medicare -- and imo, he's already done that with

permiting the COLA's to be eliminated -- what do you think will be left of the Democratic Party?

Those programs are the cornerstone of the Dem Party --

Likewise, had Obama passed MEDICARE FOR ALL he would have set up the Dem Party positively for the

next 40 years!! IMO, if Obama makes any deal with GOP on SS or Medicare, he's over -- and so

is the party!

And -- what would be left after another four years of Obama?


As for pre-owned--how do you ensure against that? It seems to be a pre-requisite for the job in a corrupt society. After Obama, I don't think you'll get as many people to believe in any Democrat's ability to represent Liberals.

First, everyone here needs their BS meters turned waaaaaaay up --

Think at the least it has to be democrats from outside the party --

I'll take Wm. Greider, Bernie Sanders, Tom Hayden, Elizabeth Warren --

there are tons of democrats who could run -- we just have to sneak up on them

and push them -- Give me Galbraith --

Have to say, though, that rw has been assassinating liberals so quickly now they do it even

before they rise -- so not as prominent as they used to be!


:nuke:

[ooglymoogly]

243. They own the loudspeakers.

If there is no contender I will vote my conscience anyway. Sanders or Grayson "write in"...at least in the primary. If we have no chance at a contender, then we need to mount a credible write in campaign for the primary. As for the final...looks like we're trapped but at least we can send a message with the write in.

[ooglymoogly]

246. sorry wrong place

[defendandprotect]

279. Can't help noticing that everything is "owned" -- think we need to rectify that ....

and start by uninventing the dollar bill -- !!

It's simply an artificial and illegitimate way to move power from voters to the few --

[JDPriestly]

211. 2016 will be too late to save Social Security.

Obama needs a challenge from a strong proponent of Social Security and less military expenditure before the 2012 election.

2016 is too late for our nation.

[marions ghost]

220. Agree but...

It's hard to get behind dream Liberals who don't have a chance of being elected, tho I know it gives legitimate encouragement to them and that's worth something, but the fact is Obama will be It and we Liberals have little representation/power. If a strong progressive candidate comes forth who can challenge him, I am all for that. But I think he knows he's in and isn't going to worry that much.

I don't have much faith in the 2-party system.

[JDPriestly]

289. If we can find a candidate who will speak well for progressive

ideas, we can at least get the public familiar with our ideas.

[defendandprotect]

229. Exactly -- !!! Thank you -- and probably also for Medicare ... Cornerstones of the party!!

:)

Nice post -- !!

[ooglymoogly]

293. +1 nt

[brooklynite]

133. I had dinner with Bernie this weekend...

He was hanging out at a retreat with some of the Democratic Senators and fatcat donors (myself included) that people here seem to hate.

I'd say he's more supportive of Democrats than some people here.

[JDPriestly]

210. I'm not a fat cat. I don't even have the power to get my full

Social Security benefits should I happen to live to the age of 98 like my great-grandfather, 89 like my grandmother or 94 like my mother.

Wall Street and the war industry stole our Social Security.

We want it back.

Obama is not fighting to get it back.

Obama also did not enforce the constitutional right to habeas corpus, the 4th Amendment right to privacy (he eavesdrops), the right to travel freely (which was understood to be so fundamental that it was not necessary to insure it in the Constitution), end the Iraq War as he promised, respect the separation of powers with regard to his unilateral action in Libya, support public schools (rather than privatization which we will dearly regret in a few years when the private corporations up their take), favors the biggest enemy of the American people: Wall Street, wants to enter into more trade agreements when we have lost more and more jobs with every agreement we have entered into so far (as well as the ability to protect our environment and govern ourselves at the local level-- if you don't understand this concept you will) . . . .

How can you read or post on DU without knowing that our unhappiness with the current administration is not just some peevish whim?

We are well informed, thoughtful people who have watched Obama and in particular his choice of aides who are virtually to a person corporate hacks, and disapprove -- strongly disapprove of Obama's policies, his weakness and his dishonesty and secrecy.

So, if you are a fat cat with money to donate, I hope you will reconsider your support of Obama.

Maybe your parents don't need good Social Security. But most grandparents in America do. The only ones who don't need it are the super-rich and those on solid government pensions. And none of those pensions are very solid. That is because the government pensions are invested in Wall Street, and Wall Street right now is just one big Ponzi scheme. The only reason that Wall Street has not crashed yet is that the mega-computers have keep the extent of the Ponzi scheme from being revealed.

[Mimosa]

227. +1,000,000

I believe Obama should be fighting for us if he wants us to fight for him.

[whathehell]

257. Fatcat doners aren't the issue...Democratic principles are. End of Story.

[bvar22]

162. We need to run somebody like George Clooney.

Since most Americans no longer vote on the ISSUES,
but on who they want for the next American Idol,
Clooney could WIN.

Extra votes if he can ride a horse.

He doesn't even have to be UP on the Issues (even though he is).
ALL he has to say in answer to every single question is,
"American are getting screwed, and its time someone speaks up for them."
PERIOD.
End Sentence.
End Debate.

If Clooney won't run,
we need to find a solid unknown from a Western state
who looks like the Marlboro man,
shoots guns,
rides a horse,
and says the following sentence over and over and over,
"You know, that isn't going to matter if we don't get some justice for Americans who Work for a Living.
I have heard the American People, and that is what they want."

That is absolutely ALL it would take to WIN the next election.
Our candidate has to be pretty,
and talk about nothing but Americans Who Work for a Living.
Period.

When the RIGHT tries to brand him as a Liberal, or Redistributor of wealth,
ALL he has to say is,
"I don't know about all that,
but I do know that American who Work for a Living are getting screwed,
and I will fix that."
Over, and OVER, and OVER.
The simpler he keeps the campaign, the easier it will be to WIN.

[FredStembottom]

171. Just the "working Americans getting screwed" part....

...would do it.

That's all I have been trying to tell the Democratic Party for 30 years!

Here's 10 words that would produce a land-slide victory:

"We want your job to come home from Communist China"

Might have to say it only 1 time.

[LiberalLovinLug]

186. Plus 1

You are exactly right!
Why the rush to be the first party to elect a black or female president? Especially if the only ones available are just following orders from Wall Street anyways?

FAUX News has airheaded foxy blondes reading their propaganda and no matter how much criticism they receive for this, Murdoch is laughing because he knows it works.

This is war. Two (parties) can play this game. Reagan was a horrible President for working Americans, but he darn sure goes down as one of the most beloved in spite of it. Why? because he had "the look" and the personality to woo Americans brought up on celebrity worship.

I'd love to see Clooney run, but why the hell would he? He can make any kind of movie he wants, and he does just that. Syriana and Good Night and Good Luck were both brilliant and important works. You could argue he could affect even more people doing what he is doing.

But yes, someone similar. We need our own Marlboro Man or Marilyn Munroe to front the party. As long as they hold to true Democratic principles. Whatever works

[dana_b]

190. I hate to say it but

that's a good idea. Speaks simply, is more liberal than most and is aesthetically pleasing. Clooney 2016!

[lutefisk]

221. I like Clooney's response to that suggestion:

"When actor George Clooney told Newsweek he doesn't believe he could run for political office because he's "f**ked too many chicks and did too many drugs," he might as well have been speaking for a whole generation of his A-list friends."

http://www.popeater.com/2011/02/25/actors-politics-george-clooney-brad-pitt/

[whathehell]

255. Yeah...A female who made a similar statement wouldn't even by MENTIONED as a possiblity.

[dflprincess]

272. The only problem I have with Clooney f**king to many chicks

is that I haven't been one of them :evilgrin:

(Of course I'm more of an old hen now, so I should just put that idea out of my mind)

[Mimosa]

225. Wow! That would be cool!

Going into 'computer mode' and staying on a simple message would work too. :)

BTW, CNN isn't even talking about this as far as i'm hearing and watching. I switched to MSNBC to see if they are covering it.

[Remember Me]

178. You forgot my favorite --

Who actually gave me a bit of (real) hope the other day when he said:

"Well, I'm not in favor of primarying Obama; if I were, I'd be running." -- Howard Dean

[JDPriestly]

78. I have to add the best one of all: Elizabeth Warren.

I just read that she was on Rachel Maddow's show tonight.

[peace frog]

145. Elizabeth Warren is considering a run for Senate

to unseat Scott Brown (R-MA), which is the elected office she is more likely to achieve.

[JDPriestly]

194. She should be president.

I am so sick of these corporate tools sitting in the White House.

[peace frog]

222. Well sure, we can dream

and we're all sick of corporate tools in the WH, but EW would bring enormous value in the Senate should she choose to run.

[tavalon]

81. Howard Dean

[defendandprotect]

152. Unfortunately, in the end I think that Howard Dean isn't willing to buck the system ...

or the party --

One thing is clear -- as dire as the situation is -- no Democrat is stepping

forward --

there is even a great silence on the issue of universal health care for suffering

Americans -- !!

IMAGINE THAT!

[bvar22]

164. As much as I like Howard Dean,

he is a good soldier in the Democratic Party.
Hw WILL put Party before Principle.
When the leadership has told him to Fall on his Sword,
he has done so.
He is NOT the guy who will "change" the Status Quo.




Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

[defendandprotect]

218. Agree -- sadly ...

:hi: --

How's your weather there -- how are organic veggies growing?

We're burning up here in central NJ -- !!

101 and 102 towards the end of the week -- !!

[bvar22]

237. Burning up here too.

Daytime temps over 100F since Mid-may, very little rain.
The Old Timers around here are saying "The Worst Heat/Drought in their recollection."
The early stuff was great, especially Strawberries, Asparagus, Onions, Garlic...
and the Hot Weather stuff is doing OK, the Black Beans, Field Peas, and Okra,
but tomatoes/peppers are few & far between.
Melons/Cantaloupes are so-so.
It is just TOO DAMN HOT for most stuff to set fruit.
We're having to feed our HoneyBees instead of them feeding us.
...not a GOOD year overall.
We're going to plant a Late Crop in August, and hope for a prolonged mild Fall.

I pray the last 2 years have been an anomaly,
and NOT the New Normal,
or we are fucked.

[defendandprotect]

284. Ouch --

Luckily we only went to 90's in May --

But, we still have all August to go --

Really worried about the honey bees --

We've had alternating weeks of hot weather -- then hot with thunderstorms --

Fingers crossed for some gentle rain for you --


:)

[whathehell]

260. Recently he said "If I believed in primarying the president, I'd run against him"...He doesn't n/t

[AndyTiedye]

182. That Would Hand the Race to the Republicans

[JDPriestly]

212. Your spouse beats you and runs off with your money.

Are you going to stick with him or her or leave?

The Obama administration has wasted money on wars and private contracting just like the Republicans. Obama does Wall Street's bidding just like the Republicans.

Obama was dragged kicking and screaming into giving equal rights to GLBTs to fight and die in the military.

Obama has not improved a woman's likelihood to have the right to choose by much if anything.

Obama suggested cuts to Social Security and Medicare.

Obama has been ineffective and has not used his bully pulpit to argue for tax increases.

In fact, his stimulus plan was too little with too many tax cuts.

He is under the thumb of Wall Street.

Our country is like a battered spouse. We need to make a change.

Let's find a challenger for 2012.

At least the challenger will have a forum in which to present progressive ideas about policy.

[defendandprotect]

285. +1000% --

[Myrina]

120. Market manipulation ...

Buy low, sell high. How to get it 'low' in order to buy cheap and make enormous profits later on?
Cause a fake dip from the inside.

Easy peasy chicken greasy.

[BlueCaliDem]

124. Yes, it's absurd,

but why allow facts to stand in the way of a good Obama bashing?

Besides, bash him enough and they might be able to sway enough Dems and Independents to either stay home or vote for more Republicans! Because that's the net result even if they don't know it (and I'm assuming they're smart enough to know it).

Then those who continue to bash President Obama here while rarely praising him, try to excuse their bashing with "We're just holding President Obama's feet to the fire, is all", don't see the how counterproductive they really are.

I mean, if someone nagged and ragged on you, personally, all day, everyday...would you nod and say, "You're right. You've convinced me. I'll listen", or do you just zone out their insistent wailing?

I do the latter.

[comtec]

138. It went from well thought out critiques to out right bashing when he started insulting us...

LEFT AND RIGHT
EVERY fucking chance his administration has had to insult the left, US HERE AT DU, WE WHO DO THE HEAVY LIFTING FOR HIM, US!!!!

HIS FUCKING BASE!

oh and all of the right of center cave-ins he's made.
he wasn't willing to offer up his presidency to get us universal, or medicare for all, or even an half-0assed, broken public option!

He didnt even TRY! AND HE INSULTED US WHILE HE WAS SUCKING RW COCK!

WE outnumber them
there are 3-1 MORE LIBERALS THAN CONSERVATIVES IN THE USA

We are not stupid, we understand bargains are a part of democracy, but he doesnt even try to start from the left and negotiate to the center, he A L W A Y S favors a rightward solution.
he starts at what should be the compromise, and he insults his base for disagreeing.

hes like a love sick girl who stays with a horribly abusive man, no matter how much he beats her. she's trying to get just one more sweet night out of him, thinks she can "help" him... that "he was better before"

i'll vote for him if he's on the ballot, as will most, because we don't have a choice.

but get your head out of your ass, and realize, that he doesnt like us, hes not playing chess, he really is that much of a spineless asshole.

believe me, i want to be wrong.I desperately want that. but I'm an engineer, i work in a world of facts and evidence. and the evidence is that he's not got our best interests at heart.
the evidence based on his performance.
the few liberal-ish-kinda-not really bones he's thrown us are unimportant, if he destroys our entire infrastructure (oh the country won't default, he'll cave, but I mean social security et al)

but knowing your lot, you won't even get this far.
sad

[MannyGoldstein]

141. Is there a specific unfact that you'd like to point out?

Thanks.

[FedUp_Queer]

215. Which is probably why

Nobody has ever elected you to anything. You see...in a "democracy" the people "nag" their "elected" leaders into doing what they want.

[electropop]

149. Any market roiling can be exploited...

...if you know in advance exactly how you plan to screw it over...

[woo me with science]

35. +10000

What a fucking charade.

[Dept of Beer]

39. Paid operatives?

I am glad that there are no PAID OPERATIVES (GOP or otherwise) at Democratic Underground in any way shape or form, and I am confident that the owners of Democratic Underground would agree with my statement.

[Divernan]

103. DU administration has never denied it. But YOU do . . . hmmmm

Even the White House has admitted hiring people (i.e., PAYING them) to post on liberal/progressive websites. Now, unless you want to claim that Democratic Underground is so insignificant that the White House is ignoring us, OR unless you can identify posters who have acknowledged they are on DU in behalf of the White House, your claim is totally without merit.

So which is it?
The White House considers DU not a player in political blogging?
OR
There ARE in fact unidentified posters on DU in the pay of the White House?

[Dept of Beer]

140. Um....

:sarcasm:

How do you know those posters are "unidentified?"

[Divernan]

172. Haven't seen one yet saying, "Hi, I'm from the White House."

Or, "Hi, I'm paid to post here."

[comtec]

142. that would explain a few of the irrational supporters of his

but only a few.
take hal sparks.
love him, but he's a complete apologists, who like most, thinks complaining = not voting.
the point is that we're still sliding rightward, only slower.
that will only end in the end of america as a democracy.

it would almost be better to put a thug in office, so we can get it over with, and the revolution can begin already.

[Divernan]

238. You've been here a month & you're"confident the owners of DU agree with you."

Do you know something we don't?

[neoralme]

108. As long or longer than a year. When Obama first caved on FISA, it

was a precursor of what is to come. When it happens, certain people will hit the streets. And they won't nice. Other people won't do much at all.

[WCGreen]

5. When will we hit that tipping point...

When will the people take to the streets...

[SSDA]

9. When NFL is canceled.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enthusiast]

67. That would do it!

And just when the Cleveland Browns were going to win the Superbowl.

[BeFree]

6. Hey, it's been a good run

It is amazing it lasted as long as it did. Given the propensity of the people to worry more about Muslims and waste trillions on invading their homes and killing them, the idea of a Christian wonder like SS was bound to have to be sacrificed sooner or later.

I fought against this idea all my life, but it is a winner: This country would rather kill than keep hope alive. I am sure glad I am an old man.

[SSDA]

7. Bernie Maddoff has nothing n these crooks.

I actually trust madoff more than these politicians.

[BlueCheese]

8. The really unbelievable thing...

... is that it's an ostensibly Democratic president who is pushing for this. Yes, he wants some tax increases too. But in 1993 we got the tax increases by themselves, and we could have had them restored in December but for a truly horrible deal.

[woo me with science]

33. It was a very clever plan, wasn't it?

They are accomplishing things they could not have dreamed of with a united Democratic opposition.

[tavalon]

82. Ostensibly is probably the most important word in your post

[Hippo_Tron]

10. There's no evidence to suggest Obama will agree to cuts for current recipients

Which means that no seniors are getting thrown out on the streets. If Obama agrees to cuts it will be for future recipients.

Instead of getting hysterical, lets just tell middle aged and young people the truth. It isn't their parents and grand parents who will suffer if there are cuts, it's THEM.

[readmoreoften]

15. Oh yeah, because it's okay to fuck over everyone in the future.

It's "hysterical" to allow a president to ruin the futures of today's workers. Gotcha.

[Hippo_Tron]

18. Did you even read my post?

I said lets tell middle aged and young people the truth. It will be THEM who will suffer because of these cuts. What about that implies that I'm okay with said cuts?

Honestly, do I have to get attacked as a cheerleader because I point out that while the OP is right that Obama may cut Social Security, they are wrong about who it might get cut for.

[Kaleva]

25. If something isn't done, the Trust Fund reserves will run out by 2036.

"After 2022, trust fund assets will be redeemed in amounts that exceed interest earnings until trust fund reserves are exhausted in 2036, one year earlier than was projected last year. Thereafter, tax income would be sufficient to pay only about three-quarters of scheduled benefits through 2085."

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html

[MannyGoldstein]

28. That's based on cooked numbers:

http://www.handsoffss.org/will-social-security-go-bankrupt-in-the-future.html

[Kaleva]

45. Neil H. Buchanan also argues that 20-25% cuts can be done later if need be.

"If a shortfall does ultimately develop, the worst case under current law is that thirty or forty years from now benefits would have to be cut 20-25% from levels that will be much higher than today's. Even cuts of that size could be phased in after we were sure that they had become necessary."

http://michaeldorf.org/2009_02_01_archive.html

[MannyGoldstein]

189. Buchanan is great - it was one of his articles that

got me to do a serious study of the Social Security situation (see the link in my sig).

[Petrushka]

52. Thanks for the link. K&R

:kick:

[indurancevile]

56. So nothing needs to be done 25 years ahead of that possibility.

Since social security runs on CURRENT pay-ins, not savings.

A five year window is more than enough time to raise fica if needed.

Raising taxes 25 years ahead of time just puts more borrowed social security money in the fraudsters' pockets.

[Ganja Ninja]

292. Yup exactly.

In fact we should probably put a cap limit on the size of the surplus since it's clear now that the politicians are intent on stealing it.

[bullwinkle428]

19. So it's no different from the Ryan plan.

[Hippo_Tron]

22. I haven't the slightest clue since it's all hypothetical at this point

Again, where from my post did you get the idea that I would defend Obama if he made such cuts?

[bullwinkle428]

123. I was just trying to make a factual "compare and contrast" statement.

I don't think I tried to suggest that you were defending it any way.

[Hawkowl]

23. Yay!

Obama is fucking ME in the ass! I feel so much better.

[Hippo_Tron]

24. Again, why the snarky response?

If Obama caves he will be fucking ME in the ass too. The OP is right about the outrage. Lets just be clear about what we're getting outraged about.

[Hawkowl]

32. I am not being snarky.

A bit sarcastic perhaps, if only to hide my absolute rage at this man who desecrates the meaning of the word Democrat. I will work against him--not just sit out 2012. I personally persuaded at least two dozen Republicans to vote for this man, and I am ashamed at his ineptitude, his disingenuous, his cavalier attitude at betraying Democratic party principles.

If he is going to participate in Shock Doctrine tactics to undermine the social safety net, he is indeed no better than a Bachman or a Palin.

[Hippo_Tron]

34. It's cool, I'm just trying to present a little shade of grey here on DU

I think the OP has mis-characterized what Obama might do if he caves. But if Obama does cave even a little bit on Social Security, it will be a god damn shame.

[Divernan]

110. Then try to do it without distorting facts.

See posts 37 and 102.

[kath]

48. "this man who desecrates the meaning of the word Democrat." - Yep, that's him.

I am so totally, utterly outraged and disgusted by him.

[emilyg]

61. You speak for me.

[sendero]

87. Republicans that voted for Obama.

... are the only winners.

[dana_b]

193. I agree completely

he just does it without the blithering idiot tactics of Palin/Bachmann. He is intelligent, thoughtful and "nice". I guess that is enough for some.

[TBF]

266. "Thoughtful" and "Nice" are not two words that come to my mind when I think about our

president today. He may be intelligent, but he is working only on behalf of our very wealthiest. Everyone else is getting robbed blind - and he does it with a smile on his face.

[dana_b]

291. I put "nice" in quotations for a reason

and thoughtful meaning that he does put thought into what he does - I do believe that everything he does has been planned (well thought out). Not necessarily thoughtful in the "he is kind" sense of the word.

[theFrankFactor]

245. Truth! If more were like you Dems might not be so pathetic.

[woo me with science]

37. Chained CPI is a benefit cut for current and future SS recipients.

Yeah, the future ones will get ass-fucked even *more* brutally, but the current ones will still be bending over and hurting.

[jtown1123]

122. YES. Please call the leg. hotline [phone] to reach your reps

to oppose chained CPI. http://youtu.be/MPeEejtoT_o

[woo me with science]

179. [phone]

Thank you.

[Dept of Beer]

44. Current recipients future recipients...

Interesting way of phrasing it.

[indurancevile]

55. cuts to future recipients have already happened, thanks to reagan.

future recipients can look forward to getting about 19% less real value than the "greatest generation" did, despite having paid in at much higher rates during a period with the largest percentage of people in the paid workforce in history.

you can tell them they can look forward to living in the streets if more is cut.

why are cuts to future recipients "acceptable"?

the whole thing is theft, period. theft from the poor by the rich.

[JDPriestly]

62. The cuts will occur when those of us in our late 60s and early 70s

are really feeble and helpless.

But they are letting us know now so as to make sure that we can't just relax and enjoy life for a few years.

These cuts will not save a cent and will not make a bit of difference in terms of the repayment of the debt.

It is just a message to foreign creditors that Obama is willing to screw seniors in order to get their money at almost no interest.

Seniors can't get jobs due to age discrimination, don't get interest on their savings (1.1-1.4% from a bank is nothing compared to the interest rates people pay that same bank for credit card debt) and now can't count on Social Security.

Curl up and die quickly is the message.

I will vote for my progressive Democratic congressman but I will not vote for Obama.

Obama's policies stink: privatizing schools, no public option, keeping Guantanamo open, beginning the end of Social Security and Medicare, continuing to wiretap our electronic communications, harassing innocent people at airports, . . . . The list is so long it is very, very distressing.

[woo me with science]

232. +1

[Enthusiast]

70. No, it's all of us.

Once they get a foot in the door it will be over for everyone.

I mean, we need more war and wars cost money. Jebus wants more war against the Muslins. It says so right in the bible. Don't you believe in the bible? Of course it might not actually be in the bible since there were no Muslins until the 6th century. But Jebus would have said it if there were any Muslins in bible days. Why are you arguing with me about Muslins?

[WinkyDink]

91. Will not "future recipients" be called "seniors"? Or will they not age, thru a miracle of science?

[Warren Stupidity]

95. Oh of course not. And if your talking point is repeated often enough

who knows, somebody might even believe it.

[Divernan]

101. Believe me! Dicking with the COLA formula IMMEDIATELY hurts seniors

Average social security payment is about $1,100 a month, and ror at least 1/2 of those on social security, that's their total income! Food prices have shot up over the past 2 years, but no COLAs. As one senior said to me the other day, food prices go up every time she goes to the store. There have been increases to prescription medication costs, fuel for cars, electric power and natural gas as well.

Furthermore, a large percentage of Americans are contributing their own moneys to help support senior citizen family members, so dicking around to keep the COLAs flat will mean they will immediately have to spend more to keep their senior relatives from starving, going without meds, or losing their homes.

No wonder seniors ARE, in fact, increasingly hysterical.

[Divernan]

111. One in four Americans provide unpaid care to an adult.

One in Four Americans Provide Unpaid Care to an Adult

Source: wsj

So as if saving for your own retirement wasn’t enough of a challenge, get ready to stash away for your relatives.

That’s the takeaway from a new report making the rounds from AARP. According to AARP, in 2009 one in four Americans cared for an adult family member, partner or friend who had a disability or chronic condition. All told, the tab for their unpaid caregiving contributions came in that year at $450 billion, a 21% increase over the $375 billion AARP estimated in 2007.

As Baby Boomers continue to age, many of whom relied on rosy assumptions about their retirement savings, this doesn’t bode well going forward. Life expectancies continue to go up, as do health care costs. Retirement account savings rates continue to be anemic. Plus, your cognitive ability when it comes to money may decline as you age.

In sum, people aren’t ready.

Read more: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/07/18/one-in-four-a...

[CrispyQ]

146. I don't disagree with what you say, but,

yesterday a poster pointed out that if you were born in the last 35 years, your entire life you have been fed the propaganda that social security is going broke. That's a lot of conditioning to get through.

[blindpig]

157. That is equally unacceptable

We hang together or separately.

[SugarShack]

11. Yes,surreal. I'm actually losing sleep over it. Is it me? Or is Obama the only one pushing for this?

[PoliticAverse]

14. Don't lose sleep over it. n/t

[Enthusiast]

71. It appears that Obama is the only living, breathing

American citizen, except for his best buddies, Bowles and Simpson, that favor cutting social security.

[neoralme]

106. Obama has been the driving force in cutting Medicare and

Social Security. He was hired by the Corporo-Fascists to do this.

[WinkyDink]

115. "Allowed to become President" is how I phrase it. ;-) Palin was the insurance; McCain, the dupe.

[Lorien]

175. I never thought of it that way before, but I have a sick feeling that you are

right on the money. :-(

[JDPriestly]

198. Yes. And this time their chosen loser is Michelle Bachmann.

No matter who gets in, the corporate masters win.

[TBF]

271. Capitalism is nothing but a pyramid scheme.

All the money's at the top - and we can see how much "trickles" down. I'm glad folks are finally figuring it out.

[neoralme]

239. Right. That's how I usually phrase it myself. I'm so furious I can't

think. I knew this was going to happen. There will be cuts to SS every year for five-six years.

[CrispyQ]

148. Makes you wonder if that's why the repub party put so many clowns up for 2012 -

TPTB like their current repub president.

I can't believe some of the comments I've read on this board. "Oh it's just reform, not cuts," "We have to get our budget under control," & other such bullshit. If a repub was doing this shit, this would be a united board.

SS should never have been put on the table. Never. The fact that a 'dem' prez did it is like a kick in the gut.

[Lorien]

176. Hence Al Gore's "lockbox". nt

[WinkyDink]

199. Hence, SCOTUS 2000. (Deep Throat: "Follow the money.")

[Lorien]

234. Yep! nt

[WinkyDink]

197. I think "shell-shocked" is how many Democrats feel.

[neoralme]

241. Yes. That though crossed my mind. He's gone. Now there's the

argument that "he's better than a Republican"... Not so sure anymore. Had Obama been a Republican, SS and Medicare would not be on the table at all. Reason he's gone is that all half this board will still vote for him no matter what. But Indys and Republicans won't.

[slipslidingaway]

12. knr nt

[senseandsensibility]

13. The GOP is using a strategy that energizes its base, while

we aren't, again....I will continue to call my reps, the White House, and organize here locally. I wish the Dem leadership was behind us, though.

[Enthusiast]

72. Once again, just like leading up to the 2010

election, the White House is using tactics especially calculated to demoralize the base. Now why would they do that?

[LiberalLovinLug]

196. No party REALLY wants to be in power next?

The same reason only clowns are running for the GOP. Whichever the winner is, they will be the ones that cut SS and Medicare, following the orders of their masters on Wall Street. They will oversee the decline of safety nets. Even the Repukes don't want this stain on them. They prefer to let the Dems do the dirty work for them.

[JDPriestly]

200. I called my progressive Dem congressman's office this morning.

I made it clear that I support my Congressman but that I will not be working or voting for Obama, and that I think a lot of people agree with me.

[neverforget]

17. The politicians are rich too....mostly. I'm in a bad mood too

:mad: :argh: :banghead:

[cutlassmama]

20. you have every right to be in a bad mood. There are millions there with you

right now. This is bullshit.

[woo me with science]

21. I am livid

at this Trojan horse of a President and nauseated by every cheap, amoral shill pretending to be a Democrat and defending this evil.

I have seen things written by purported Democrats in the past few days that make my mouth drop open...things just as snide and callous and heartless as anything I have ever seen from a far right Republican.

We have been taken over by people who don't give a damn about the vulnerable in this country, or about the principles that have guided this party for decades.

I am aghast, too.

[DesertFlower]

26. i'm in a bad mood too.

this is not the america i once believed in.

[Marr]

27. Politics has seemed like one slow motion train wreck after another for at least 15 years.

I first started getting involved in politics when Clinton was pushing NAFTA. I remember reading about the issues surrounding it and it just seemed like such an obviously bad move for the average American. All of the sales pitches around it were deeply flawed and easily deconstructed, but such criticism simply wasn't accepted in the national dialogue, and the policy simply glided into place, as if there was no opposition to it at all.

I've watched the same dynamic repeat itself over and over, from Bush's openly illogical and hole-ridden argument for invading to Iraq, to Obama's health insurance industry bailout. I can honestly say this whole undermining of social security in the name of fighting the deficit, even as politicians acknowledge it has nothing to do with the deficit, is perhaps the most blatant middle finger I've seen yet.

It really is like public opinion doesn't even figure into these things. They've decided to steal our money, so they're going to do it. It's one big, casual middle finger to the American public.

[kath]

49. +a brazillion.

[indurancevile]

57. try 31 years.

[Tesha]

139. Precisely.

Reagan (and his being elected in part through his treasonous
contacts with Iran) was the watershed; it's all been downhill
since then.

Tesha

[Enthusiast]

209. It has been all downhill.

But it was put on steroids with the falsified results of the 2000 election.

[somone]

29. The beatings will continue until morale improves

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Please keep breaking records.

I'm glad someone cares about the issue. :( I can't believe a Democrat is doing this. It really IS surreal.

[Lil Missy]

31. You should probably take a break then. n/t

[Palmer Eldritch]

38. at least a broken record was once useful.

[TreasonousBastard]

40. Social Security is NOT your retirement savings...

and nobody's taken anything away yet.

[indurancevile]

58. Sorry, 2/3 of americans rely on social security for more than half of their retirement income,

and 1/3 of americans rely on it for more than 90%.

So in fact, it IS most people's retirement savings. Most people have been "saving" through social security for their entire working life. and since reagan, they've been "saving" at a rate higher than needed to fund then-current retirees -- so that the government could borrow their money to cut taxes to billionaires.

[marions ghost]

85. +++

right.

[WinkyDink]

92. What would YOU call it, after paying SS tax from your paycheck for decades? Guess again:

The term, in everyday speech, is used to refer only to the benefits for retirement, disability, survivorship, and death, which are the four main benefits provided by traditional private-sector pension plans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)

[Warren Stupidity]

96. it is for most american retirees.

For almost half it is their only source of retirement income.

And of course, we should wait until after the deed is done to speak out against it. Anything else is unseemly.

[Doctor_J]

191. This attitude is a big problem

and nobody's taken anything away yet.

This is stage III of the Obama Fan Club response to every single cave-in.

I. Are you going to believe the WSJ?
II. Are you going to believe the NYT?
III. Nothing's happened yet
IV. He had to cave in
V. What are you going to do, vote for Bachmann?

[dana_b]

201. really? Then do tell us where we are supposed

to get that retirement savings from. The unemployed/underemployed, those of little means, ill or just can't get a "good" job. What are we supposed to do at age 65-70? Lay down and die? Because we don't have any money to save. If SS is not there or pays too little to squeak by, that is exactly what will happen to many people.

[RebelOne]

253. It is my retirement savings and that's what I am living on. n/t

[TBF]

267. 401ks are gone, they are now taking social security, what is left?

And how in the world do you think people have "retirement savings" - they don't even have jobs anymore.

[Lugnut]

42. K&R n/t

[woo me with science]

43. Kicked and strongly recommended.

Don't EVER apologize. Keep screaming it to the rooftops.

[slay]

46. Right there with ya Manny

i'm pretty pissed - where are the REAL Dems - the ones that are supposed to stand up for The People?!?! argh.. whatever.

[InkAddict]

47. As a victim of that free marketing of human resources, there's a

lot of folks who have been essentially turned into zombified citizens, too horrible to gaze upon by the remaining middle class for fear it is contagious (which by current policy, it is). These zombified citizens are also totally invisible to our government representatives on both sides of the aisle. No wonder the CDC has tips about universal procedures. Just like Pontius Pilate, they will "wash their hands" of any accountability for what is to come. Even the envisioned separated-from-government Christian concepts of compassion and forgiveness have been twisted and transformed into fundamentalist tough love that would torture, maim, and dispossess the poor and made-poor from their homes, from nurishment, from medicines and treatments, and worst of all, a vote, without further diminishing their ability to meet the rising costs of the citizenship club.

Permit me to offer a half-baked paranoid notion that there may well be a place that harbors a vast oven to cleanse the zombies from the general population -- Area 51 -- what else could be so unspeakable for so long than the cold-blooded murder of the poor, the disabled, and the made useless. Alien visitors? Advanced aircraft? Piles of yellow cake?

It was once a source of pride that social programs provided for a life that could not be as perfected within the chronological span of one's lifetime. In the face of horrible obstacles, people have arisen with great courage from backgrounds that could have ended up much worse but for those programs. Now, our leaders have led us astray with policies that have drained the wealth of citizens not endowed with 15 minutes of fame via their family name or special talents to entertain, distract, or narrow others vision of success. Somewhere out there lurks outrageously selfish, pompous, and IMO treasonous villians of our United States of America.

I'm depending on justice prevailing, eventually, though I might not make it long enough to see it under whatever cooked-up policy might meet the criteria of "compromise." Another zombie vote down the drain? Must be that sacrifice thing our POTUS meant, huh?

[girl_interrupted]

51. K&R

[Cherchez la Femme]

53. Unfortunately

it's completely understandable.

Wish to Gawd it wasn't...

[shanti]

54. k&r

:kick:

[Jack Sprat]

59. I KNOW! and I don't like it either. nt

[Enthusiast]

63. Kicked and recommended!

Every time.

[coalition_unwilling]

64. The Democratic Party and Obama do not represent the interests

of the working class. I"m sorry it has come to this, but it's now time to build a new party that does represent the interests of the working class and consign the Democratic Party to the dustbin of history.

[defendandprotect]

65. Before Social Security is completely gone, think we had been think about 2012 ....

How about Sen. Bernie Sanders --

How about Alan Grayson --

We need two strong anti-war candidates --

Let's find out what's left of the Democratic Party after Koch Bros funded DLC

finished with it -- ????



and PS -- Seniors aren't united or organized in any way other than AARP, as far as I know --

and AARP is an insurance company!


Elites/corporations are united and orgnaized in every way -- up, down, sideways --

hierarchies -- wealth!

There's always something we can do -- huge numbers of liberals haven't been voting for

decades because they've understood the scam of our politics --

A populist would bring them out --

Which is why the rw and DLC didn't allow no "steenkin' populist stuff" in campaigns or debates!!


:evilgrin:

[Enthusiast]

73. How about someone besides Obama? nt

[defendandprotect]

158. That's the idea ... in particularly, candidates who aren't pre-bribed by corporate money ...

[JDPriestly]

202. I went to a meet-up of Rebuild the American Dream on the weekend.

There were lots of seniors and others. I think that will be a very good, very liberal group although there were a lot of people who have not seen through Obama yet.

The most awful idea is the commission with ultimate power.

I think it so undemocratic to form such a commission. Shame on them.

[defendandprotect]

233. Agree ... but ...

do they believe in the whole "debt" crisis -- ?

And that we're going broke -- ? The theater of it all?

Do they talk about the need for seniors to get organized/unite to protect these

programs?

Evidently Congress voted against this commission -- and Obama set it up anyway -- !!

And set two obnoxious right wingers to head it -- !!

Obama should have tossed Simpson out after the comments he made !!


But, it's the overall pattern -- everything behind closed doors -- private deals --

deals between parties -- and Obama is an re pro at it!!

FED has been making political decisions re our economy, unemployment, all of it down

the line -- stuff our Congress is supposed to be doing -- people we elect and who

we can unelect.

And a private bank is making these decisions!!


But again -- I'd recommend you read Galbraith's comments re the commission as "illegitimate"

and that they should not be deciding anything to do with Social Security --

basically he's told them it's none of their business -- and nothing to do with budget.


And also Al Gore's Rolling Stone article -- where what he's reporting is a government under

fascist control -- though he never uses that word -- and Congress under the control of the

oil and coal industry!!



Not to mention Obama's attachment to oil industry and nuke industry!!



:nuke:

[roxiejules]

68. K&R!

I'm in a bad mood, too.

[Revlon10]

74. K&R

K&R

[Urban Prairie]

75. I imagine the freeper and cave people lurking here are gleefully reading many

of these posts and threads bitching about Obama, but many if not most are also in the very same line for taking it up the HH w/o even getting a chance to spit on their fingers, when, or better still, IF they finally reach the "age" that they should have been able to retire as well.

[DeSwiss]

76. K&R

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks…will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." – Thomas Jefferson

[KansDem]

79. K&R

It boggles the mind...

[tavalon]

80. Bad mood or not, it's true

And it's not fertilizer, it's bullshit, no matter how much they try to convince me otherwise.

[blkmusclmachine]

84. They want everything you got, til you got no more to give

[Obamanaut]

88. And the politicians that you say were paid off by a few rich

fuckers will probably be reelected, with many of the votes coming from those same senior citizens whom the politicians screwed.

The Eddie Murphy movie "The Distinquished Gentleman" shows this nicely - vote for "the name you know."

[mmonk]

89. Reminds me of this:

...when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
-Karl Rove-

[Paper Roses]

90. Such news to start the day. Barely making it now.

Do you suppose the government will forgive some of my debt as compensation?
My $951.00 a month, less the $4000.00 per year I pay as Real Estate taxes doesn't leave much for the rest of life's expenses.

This is supposed to be OUR government?
It is the government of,by and for the wealthy.

[MannyGoldstein]

132. Which is why we need to fight back. They'll take anything an

everything if we don't stop them.

[madokie]

94. The thought of that puts me in a bad mood too, Manny

makes me want to get out the vote and vote these bastards out of office, both dems and pukes, anyone who votes to do this or does not work to not let this happen. I'm already a senior and I have a grandchild who I want to protect from the hungry wolves of the present politicians

[timtom]

97. $9 billion per month on Iraq!

$12 billion per month on Afghanistan!

"Gosh, where EVER shall we find the money...?"

[Brickbat]

98. Doesn't hurt to say it again and again.

Maybe people will realize hot the water has gotten.

[elleng]

99. Not true.

RATIONALIZING the program so it can endure for many years, like raising the income cap.

'Demographics are the driving force. The wave of baby boomer retirements comes atop a larger trend of growing longevity. In 1950, there were 16 workers for every retiree claiming benefits. It's now three workers per retiree, and by 2030 the ratio is expected to be 2 to 1.

The Social Security trustees, one Democrat and one Republican, recommended in their recent report in mid-May that Congress make fixes in "a timely way so that necessary changes can be phased in gradually," to spread needed tax hikes or benefit reductions over more generations.

Possible solutions include:

•A simple hike in the payroll tax. Bumping the current tax of 12.4 percent on worker payrolls (paid half by employers, half by employees) to 14.6 percent would close the financing gap for 75 years. This isn't a favorite solution, but it puts the scale of the problem in perspective.

•Bump up the eligibility age. This could be done as a one-year bump up in both the early and normal retirement ages (now 62 and 67, respectively) with advance warning. Or the ages could rise gradually with estimates of longevity. Or both those approaches could be combined.

•Eliminate or raise the current earnings cap on the payroll tax, so that high-income workers pay more into Social Security.

•Reduce payouts to the best-off beneficiaries.

•Adjust the COLA system, using what proponents say is a more accurate measure of inflation.'

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0718/Amending-Social-Security-how-to-s-surface-during-national-debt-talks/(page)/2

[MannyGoldstein]

131. First off, the projection that payments will need to drop 20% in 25 years is

based on fudged numbers: http://www.handsoffss.org/will-social-security-go-bankrupt-in-the-future.html

So no changes are needed.

Also:

1. "Bump up the eligibility age." - that's a deep cut. Increases in longevity have already been factored into Social Security's future: http://www.handsoffss.org/now-that-people-live-longer-than-we-used-to-will-that-cause-social-security-to-go-bankrupt.html

2. "Reduce payouts to the best-off beneficiaries." - that's a cut. Just raise taxes on the wealthy if that's what we want to do, don't *just* target wealthy retirees.

3. "Adjust the COLA system, using what proponents say is a more accurate measure of inflation." Another deep cut over time. The current COLA formula is already too low - no increases the past two years although expenses have obviously increased.

Always check the numbers! TPTB figure that nobody will read the fine print.

[JDPriestly]

204. Thanks. Manny. You are right as always.

[SidDithers]

100. If only McCain and Palin had won...nt

Sid

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cameron27]

127. Delurking

to say Amen! Thanks, been waiting a long time for someone to bring that up. Easy to be a condescending "ardent" supporter when you've got no skin in the game.

[SidDithers]

130. ...

:rofl:

Sid

[WinkyDink]

116. Besides being deliberately chosen to lose, NO WAY could a Republican Pres. get away with even

MENTIONING a change to SS or Medicare.

So you are Canadian? You mean, the kind of Canadian with free health-care? THAT type of Canadian?

[woo me with science]

231. +1

[bvar22]

235. Cradle to Grave Single Payer Universal Health Care,

AND a very secure Social Security system.
Easy to laugh and tell others what to do
when you're sitting on those for yourself.

[Divernan]

173. So Sid, what's your main concern, as a proud Canadian?

[mmonk]

102. posted wrong place

[Tesha]

105. I've just borrowed your post.

for little newspaper in NH.
Thank you..

obvious? not to the oblivious!

[erebusman]

107. I've always known that I would never collect my benefits

I'm 40 and I've always known in the pit of my stomach that I would never collect my SS benefits.

It cemented when they raised the age just before my father began collecting his.

And what is going on today of course does nothing to restore faith, it is simply more nails in a coffin that has been long in preparation by foes of social security.

What I wonder though ... is what do they have against it? We all pay in to it as we work through our lives. Why can't we collect? What's inherently wrong with that?

I mean its clear someone wanted to paint the false picture that it ads to debt to help rationalize getting rid of it; but what did that guy have against it to begin with?

God forbid some old people can afford rent in their trailer park and medicine for their colon cancer like my dad.

Going out in a blaze of glory before you get too old and infirm to provide for yourself continues you look like the best option from where I sit.

peace

[WinkyDink]

117. "...what do they have against it?" IT IS MONEY TPTB HAVE YET TO ACQUIRE. Simple as THAT.

[JDPriestly]

205. erebusman, they don't have anything against Social Security.

That is not the problem. The problem is that a big gang of them just stole the money.

The expropriated it for their personal use by setting up private companies that got contracts (often military contracts) for goods and services (many of which were either way overpriced or defective) from the government. The government paid the contracts (think the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, weapons, airport security, etc.) out of our tax money.

That's an old Mafia trick. It involves theft and then money laundering. Often there is a subtle form of extortion involved -- sometimes a not so subtle extortion.

Remember Enron. Remember Abramoff. Just the tip of the iceberg.

Campaign funds and big parties. Golf jaunts to the Marianna Islands. Who do you think pays for those things?

New fighter jets? The list goes on and on.

And Homeland Security is a huge boondoggle payoff for lucky private contractors. The Social Security money went into the hands of the very rich, and now they do not want to pay the taxes to repay the funds. That's how this happened.

[WinkyDink]

207. WELL-PUT. TSA = Chertoff, e.g.

[TBF]

112. You and Faryn have both posted many times about the theft of

social security, and I for one can't thank you enough.

Rec again, and I hope you start 25 OP's on this today - I will rec each one.

[myrna minx]

114. K&R n/t

[dionysus]

119. .

[Oilwellian]

125. We live in surreal times

K&R

[hay rick]

128. K&R

[CrispyQ]

134. THEY WANT IT ALL.

They will not stop until they have everything & we have nothing.

21st century feudalism coming to your town soon!

[certainot]

137. it would be quite predictable if you we're one of the 20% who say they

get their news from talk radio

and if you want to blame anyone, call and boycott the local sponsors of your local right wing radio station, who have been selling this alternate reality while the left walks by with ipods in their ears

[Change Happens]

144. They voted on the bill already? Is the law now, has it already passed?

Did I miss stuff?

[Dept of Beer]

147. I'm bookmarking this.

I hope you are right, but...

[MannyGoldstein]

156. So is your argument that people should not take action until they're shot? Or...

that there's not two guys at the door with a gun, arguing over whether to shoot you in the face or in the chest?

[WiffenPoof]

151. I Completely Agree With You...

It's like we are living in a strange world that no longer puts people first. I never thought I would live long enough to see this happening. (*sigh*)

[femrap]

153. Manny....

I appreciate your words. What's up next? Soylent Green? I have been in a bad mood for years now....since 11/04, actually.

I would like to point out that WOMEN will suffer the most from the cuts in SS. We get less in the first place and typically live longer. I hope that if SS is cut that communities will recognize this fact and see to it that that elderly women in need are provided decent nutrition so to stay healthy.

One organization, OWL, works for the middle-aged and elderly women of this country....they provide excellent information on the cuts in SS.

May the women who receive SS stand up and SCREAM at the minions of Washington, DC!

I just don't understand why the Dems don't personalize/frame this issue. How many Grandmothers, Aunts, Sisters, are going to be giving up one to two meals a day???

Hurting elderly women is the most cowardice act I have seen from DC yet. Eric Cantor can shove peas up his arse for all I care.

[ProSense]

155. Obama has signed Social Security cuts into law. See:

coming soon!!!

Promise!

[theFrankFactor]

167. Is Social Security an Entitlement? Is it a Worthy Target for Debt Reduction?

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

184. Ah,

"when he does"

...when?

When he does, I'll credit you for being a sage. Until then, teh stupid burns.

[Jim_Shorts]

159. Looks like the future of SS & Medicare rest in the hands of "pinky"

Only bill that could possibly pass is McConnell-Reid. It's Pinky vs Darth the Turtle or the ex-fighter who never found a fighter that he wouldn't take a dive for vs the ugliest man on earth w/o a conscious. My $ is on ugly.

I will never forget Reid taking to the senate floor right after voting to extend the Bush tax cuts and saying how good his conversations were with the chamber of commerce and how delightful (or something to that effect)it was to work with Mitch McConnell.

But don't worry, Bama (the man who does a 180 like a rabbit being chased by a fox) is stopping by once in a while to make sure we don't get the raw end of the deal.

[WiffenPoof]

161. I Know It Could Never Happen...

But I would vote for someone like Mario Cuomo. I have never heard anyone voice the true principles of being a Democrat better than he has. A brilliant man.

-P

[blackbart99]

163. I'm feelin your pain Manny......Don't hold it in...

You'll blow a gasket......x( ....:nuke:

[bvar22]

168. K&R

Unfortunately, I've seen this show before,
and it doesn't end well for the Working Class, the Retired, and the Poor.

Cherish your memories, SUCKERS!
because we're TAKING everything else!
Hahahahahahaha!

[stockholmer]

226. once the road of empire is trod upon, it never does

:(

[Jakes Progress]

169. But, but. If we all just keep quiet and don't fuss.

Maybe the republicans will turn out to love Obama and not screw seniors. We all just have to shut up. And wait. Yeah. That's it. Shut up and wait. That's the slogan of the New Democratic Party.

Let's make a button. Shut Up and Wait.

[sweetapogee]

170. but

but at least we are all getting free or low cost healthcare.

[Daphne08]

180. I'm 62 and I can say without reservation that

President Obama is not a true Democrat. He certainly doesn't act like the Democrats in my day did (they NEVER would have allowed any such changes to Social Security), but then, how many of today's Democrats actually represent us? I can only think of a handful.

As others here (who've lived long enough) have stated, things have not been the same since the Reagan Presidency.

It's all very distressing and depressing.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

187. If Social Security is cut, could that be the spark that ignites

the so called common people to wake up and take to the streets?
Or will they just roll over like they have been doing?
Had enough yet?

[Bryn]

192. K&R

I feel the same way. I cannot believe this is happening. x(

[Hoyt]

195. If Obama does it, I'll curse him. But, I don't think it will happen.

You said it was going to be announced during the State of the Union Speech. It didn't. What will you say if it doesn't happen this time? Will we be getting these "warnings" at Christmas?

Further, I have no problem with SS being reviewed. It needs to be periodically reviewed closely to assure those younger that SS will be there.

Then, again, I could be wrong and will end up sharing cat food with my pet and cursing Obama at every "meal."

[MannyGoldstein]

213. I said he'd call for it at the SOTU. He did.

He started using his "cut vs. slash" shtick then - some ridiculed me at the time as parsing words, but fortunately the press nailed it a few days ago:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2011/0707/Briefing-room-word-games-What-s-a-slash-versus-a-cut-in-Social-Security">Briefing room word games: What's a 'slash' versus a 'cut' in Social Security?

So, a reporter asked, what does “slash” mean?

“Haven’t you got, like, a dictionary app on your iPhone?” Carney replied.

Q: Well, it’s a word that you use instead of ??cut.”

Carney: “Slash” is, I think, quite clear. It’s slash. It’s like that. (Carney makes a slashing motion with his hand.) It’s a significant whack.

Q: So it means a significant …

Carney: I’m not going to put a numerical figure on it.

Q: So it means a significant cut.

Carney: I think slashing is a pretty sharp, direct …

Q: It’s not the same thing as cutting – the point is, it’s not the same thing as “cut.”

Carney: It’s slash. (Laughter.) And I don’t mean the guitarist. (Laughter.)

Q: A pledge to not slash benefits is not the same thing as a pledge to not cut benefits.

Carney: I’m not – again, we’re talking about a policy enunciated by the president back in January, and that is …

Q: This is a diction you guys have chosen.

Carney: No, no, I get that, and we did choose it, and the president used it. But I’m not here to negotiate the semantics …

Q: Just so everybody understands – just so everybody understands, when you say “slash,” you don’t mean “cut.”

Carney: We have said that to address the long-term solvency of the problem – of the program, because this is not an issue that drives short- or medium-term deficits, that we would look – the president is interested in looking at ways to strengthen the program and enhance its long-term solvency that protects the integrity of the program and doesn’t slash benefits.

Q: Which is not the same thing as not cutting benefits.

[WinkyDink]

224. That questioner was PRETTY DA*N INSIGHTFUL. Had a great BS Detector.

[Hoyt]

230. Your link is dated July 7, 2011. That is not associated with the State of the Union.

I have not seen anything that leads me to believe he is going to cut or slash SS. In fact, I would not be surprised to see an increase in the wage cap and an increase in the minimum SS benefit for those at the lowest levels. If the chained index is adopted, taxes are increased for upper income individuals, Medicare is improved, and those younger feel a little better about the system -- I'll be happy. Some how, I'll adjust to a 0.25 less COLA, assuming that actually happens.

The SS system has survived a long time with worse Presidents than Obama could be in your wildest imagination. It'll survive now. And if the economy and national debt improves so more people have jobs (which will also help improve the world economy), I'll take a 0.25% cut (if that is what you insist on calling it).

[MannyGoldstein]

244. Check the SOTU transcript and you'll see what

I'm talking about.

[SSDA]

275. Looks like Ob,AMA is screwing us.

Bohica.

[louslobbs]

214. We're singing in the same choir Manny thanks for the post and never be sorry for

being a broken record about what's true. The other side is a broken record with lies and distortions and look what they've been able to foist upon the rest of us.

One needs only look at the Murdoch scandal to know the systems of government and justice are rigged against the majority when enough money is paid to those in power who are supposed to do the right thing.

The worship of money and power once again trumps the rule of law and a supposed government of the people.

The rich and powerful pay off the police, federal, state and local officials in government to turn a blind eye and in fact assist them in doing their bidding, rather than governing for, and in the name of the average citizen, "we the people", the majority.

It's no surprise that Manny and the majority of this country (myself included) are "in a bad mood".

When the average citizens voice is constantly and consistently ignored by the power structure, "a bad mood" caused by having to endure too many "bad days" caused by a corrupt government, greedy corrupt corporations and those with power, could start the beginning of a movement that will cause bad days and bad moods for the rich, corporations, government and the corporate owned media.

Just the thought of taking back our country from the hands of those who are systematically destroying it for the majority of us, helps my bad mood turn to a mood of anger and resolve, to take back "our country" from those who are motivated only by greed, power, and money, who do the bidding of a small, selfish, wealthy, minority to the further detriment of a suffering, scared, and angry majority.

There are many more of us then there are of them, the question is, when are we going to show them this fact and take to action as the majority to show "them" what real power actually looks like in a Democracy "of, for and by the people and not a government of what it has turned into, of for and by the corporations, the rich and powerful.

Let us, the majority, make sure that: of, for and by the corporations, the rich and powerful, "shall perish from the earth" and not the other.
Lou

[SammyWinstonJack]

217. And millions on SSDI of which I will be one because that is our only income save a very small

pension from the Teamsters' Union. I am so stressed. :cry:

[WinkyDink]

223. {{SammyWinstonJack }} You are yet another person whose story makes me OUTRAGED at current events.

I basically have zero tolerance for non-like-minded Democrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[INdemo]

240. If Obama was truly honest with the American People he

would drop the "Democrat" label.Every major piece of legislation he has caved to the Republicans..We knew Bush was a crook,a corporate puppet. Obama's Presidency has been nothing more than a Bush third term.

[ooglymoogly]

247. KR as no one is listening...a broken record seems appropriate

to the situation.

[TBF]

248. Today's NY Times confirms DEEP CUTS to Medicare and Medicaid -

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/20/us/politics/20fiscal.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

The large attendance — 47 senators, including 23 Republicans — and the positive reactions inside and outside the meeting surprised even the six senators who produced the package. It would make deep spending cuts over time in domestic and military programs, including Medicare and Medicaid, and raise new revenues from closing myriad tax breaks and loopholes, while lowering tax rates across the board – much like last year’s plan from Mr. Obama’s fiscal commission.

[bananas]

249. kick. nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

251. Rec #450. They're not fooling anyone. nt

[Grrrfun]

254. He is a

republican. He needs to look himself in the mirror and say 'I am a Republican!'

I want a Democrat to primary his ass... Elizabeth Warren would mop the floor with him. ANY real Democrat would.

People are tired of pulling different levers and getting the same damn thing out of the machine every time...

[rbnyc]

256. Apparently this is just a fringe concern...

...from a small group on the far left. So get with it.

[Major Hogwash]

258. So, no liberals in Congress will stop him? No one will oppose him next year to be the President?

Someone has to, if we are to continue as a party.

[Lasher]

268. Yes.

I am afraid it has come down to that.

[AzDar]

261. I think we are just supposed to shut up and eat our peas, Manny..

:(

[emald]

262. when I am not paid

I will take what I need. As will millions of others. It will be ugly, but here it comes.

[Marnie]

263. SS and Medicare are not part of the Federal government's Budget.

They are their own entities. They have their own budgets and their own withholdings. They are not part of the federal government's budget.

That Obama is smart enough to realize that but still calls them Entitlements and talks like they are part of the Federal Government's debt problem, just like Republicans do, should tell you something about Obama.

[soryang]

264. The Medicare cuts will be worse; they are front loaded

At age 65 and 66, your medicare rights are taken away. Fair market value? $32,000.00 for a married couple born in the same year.

What makes it worse is that it will drive up insurance and medical costs everywhere for everyone and in the end won't save the government a dime.

[farscape]

265. What's even more amazing?

It's the Seniors that put the GOP in office. It wasn't Indies that changed in 2010 according to an extensive analysis by Nate Silver, it was an entirely different set of Indies. They were old and they were white. 29 million 2008 Obama voters sat out 2010. I wonder what they will do in 2012.

[Blue Owl]

270. Greed is in the house.

GREED IS IN THE FUCKING HOUSE.

[alp227]

273. Jam the White House comment line at 202-456-1111. And the Gang of Six is slanted RIGHT

two DLCrats (Conrad, Warner) and one real progressive (Durbin). And of course the RePIGS. There better be enough congressional pushback that Obama reconsiders on the entitlements. Seriously I can't believe he's letting himself fall into this right-wing trap..."fiscal responsibility" suddenly transforms into "death panels!!!!!!" Not just holler at the White House, holler at your Senator and Representative too. We can NOT sink in despair and let our party commit suicide like this!

[kestrel91316]

277. K&R

[Babel_17]

278. It's a defining issue

And so I'll sound off that I stand behind my party's proven principles regarding it.

[Blecht]

280. Net recommendation: +519 votes (Your vote: +1)

Already recommended -- can still kick, though.

It can't be said enough how insane all this is.

[deaniac21]

282. Keep on believing in that pile off IOUs. It worked in the movie

Dumb and Dumber.

[laconicsax]

283. YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN!

:grr:

[johnaries]

286. HOW is it going to be slashed? there is no proposal to "slash"

Social Security.

Even in the Gang of Six proposal (which has both good and bad things in it), it specifically says that "Reform must ensure 75-year solvency of the program and provide for a decennial review to ensure it remains solvent. Any savings from the program must go towards solvency, not
deficit reduction"

[MannyGoldstein]

287. Your bolded statement is wordsmithed nonsense

But I'm too tired to explain it. If you really want to know why, please let me know and I'll respond in the AM.

[Dept of Beer]

288. SS is its own program. Why should any of its treasure go to

deficit reduction? :eyes:

[girl gone mad]

290. Haven't seen a DU thread get over 10K views in a while.

You've captured the zeitgeist, Manny.