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Let's make something perfectly clear in regards to Obama and military spending

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:23 AM
Original message
Let's make something perfectly clear in regards to Obama and military spending
The cuts to military spending that Obama has made amounts to 400 billion over twelve years. Approximately 33 billion a year or three percent of the entire military budget, less than the automatic budget increase for inflation.

Obama and the Dems are talking about maybe, perhaps, another budget cut of the same size. Again, another 33 billion per year, another three percent decrease in the total military budget.

Notice, please, that I'm talking about the entire military budget, not just the Pentagon budget. For as we all should well know, the budget for the military is spread out among several agencies like the DOE(which services and maintains our nuclear missile fleet), the CIA, etc. The difference between the current Pentagon, or Defense budget and the entire military budget is the difference between 649 billion dollars and 1 trillion plus dollars. Now the exact number for the entire military budget is hard to find, due to how these budget figures are hidden within the budgets of other agencies, and let's not even get into black ops budgets. The low figure, which is what I'm working with, is right at 1 trillion dollars, the upper limit is 1.5 trillion dollars. Either way, it is far greater than the actual Defense Department budget.

Back to my point, we've seen the military budget cut by only three percent, with the vague potential of another three percent cut. A total of six percent cutback to our military spending. Ooo, ahh, impressive you think until you look at other programs that have gotten the ax. Welfare has been a persistent target of budget cuts, and suffered more than twelve percent budget cuts over the past ten years. NIH has suffered cuts of 3.5%, then one percent over the past four years. NASA is decimated. And now they're looking at cutting SS and Medicare benefits through a combination of COLA adjustments and raising eligibility. Those cuts would amount to far more than six percent of those programs budgets over the next ten years.

But the military saw its budget raised this year, as it has for every year for the past decade and beyond. Yes, it gets a tiny trim here or there. But to say that the military budget is sharing the sacrifice is flat out absurd. Military spending is well over fifty five percent of our budget. The wars we're in are not defensive wars, but rather wars of empire. To continue to cut social and domestic programs while continuing to grow our military budget is insane and will lead to our collapse just as surely as the USSR's insane military spending led to their collapse.

So please, drop the notion that the military is somehow sharing in our sacrifice. Our military needs to become a true defensive force, not a force for offense and empire building. I think that, given our gross and needless military buildup over the past sixty years, a fifty percent decrease in military spending would not be unreasonable. But I also recognize that given our current political climate, that's not going to happen. It would be nice to see a more doable ten percent drop in military spending, but I doubt that is going to happen.

So what we have left now are token gestures by this administration on cutting the military, while continuing to balance the budget and solve the debt crisis by cutting social and domestic programs that benefit us. How fucked up is that?

No more cuts to domestic programs, period. We cannot afford them. It is time, past time, to start cutting our military budget. Otherwise we're going to collapse into riot and ruin as a country. The choice is that simple.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Recommend
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. USSR's insane military spending led to their collapse
Now is not the time to feed GOP/TeaFarty political ammunition

but yes - DEEP Cuts are coming
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Why do you consider the truth to be feeding 'Pugs political ammunition.
The fact of the matter is that the USSR did collapse because of its insane military spending, trying to keep up with our insane military spending.

We have/had more resources to keep up our military spending for a longer period of time, but if we don't cut back on it, and soon, we too shall collapse. That isn't spin or propaganda, it is the plain truth.

But no, I don't see any deep cuts in the military budget coming anytime soon.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I'm on your side but .....
Right now during the heightened hysteria of the Debt/Deficit negotiations any budget cuts to our military will only serve as the "Battle Cry" to rally GOP/TeaFarty support. IMHO

I really thought it interesting no one even blinked an eye when the commission signaled willingness to cut military pension programs. Althou no one has mentioned that publicly
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. If not now, when?
We've been bringing up this issue for decades, and for decades it has been kicked down the road due to political considerations, ie, can't cut it during the 'Nam war, or the Cold War, or because a president didn't want to look "soft", or we had the War on Terror, on and on. Well, the end of that road is coming up quickly, and we don't start addressing this problem now, we won't be able to address it because the entire country will collapse.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Every time its the Democrats Fault
Even when Poppy Bush sign legislation closing all those Military Bases Clinton was blamed for it

Can't say its right Just that right now it is more important to Close Tax Loop Holes and end Bush Tax Cuts as opposed to arguing "Patriotism" However once the public get a dose of the reality of program cuts I feel the majority will welcome Defense Budget Cuts
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BNJMN Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-11 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. Odd, I thought it'd negate the debt, deficit fears. "YOu want budget cuts? Here ya go!" n/t
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. "otherwise we are going to collapse into riot and ruin as a country"
I don't find false dilemma arguments very convincing.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. We saw it happen in the USSR,
What makes you believe that it won't happen here?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. You asserted it as a statement of fact...
not merely a possibilty.

First off, we're not remotely like the Soviet Union. Your hyperbole isn't very convincing.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Well, the vast majority of experts agree that the reason the USSR collapsed
Was due to its insane military spending, and its lack of spending on social and domestic programs. That is the road we're headed down now, what makes you think that the ending won't be the same? Because we're a democratic, capitalist society? Don't make me laugh, the evidence is plain before you, we're spending an ever increasing amount of money on our military, and less and less on social and domestic programs. Taking the same actions as the Soviet Union, but you're expecting a different result? You know what that one definition of insanity is. . .
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. "vast majority of experts"
Could you please provide some proof of that?

Beyond that, you might want to look up the logical fallacies of division and composition.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Umm, the USSR was spending a quarter of its GNP, not budget, but GNP on the military,
If you want more proof, go educate yourself, the subject is too long and in depth to give in a post. There are many fine historical books out there that you can find and read.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. That's not what I asked you
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 12:25 PM by SDuderstadt
BTW, you just tanked your own argument. Did you see that? Or do you claim that the US is spending 1/4 of its GNP on the military? Hint: in 2009, the US GNP was 14.265 T.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. "I don't find false dilemma arguments very convincing"
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 11:54 AM by Bragi
Personally, I don't find unending, obfuscationist nitpickery very convincing.

You know, when someone constantly jumps into discussions by taking issue with some turn of phrase or minor sidepoint, and then tries to refocus the conversation onto their marginally-relevant sub-point.





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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. "obfuscationist nitpickery"
What, precisely, am I "obfuscating"?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. I agree that we need to raise revenue,
I strongly support that. But we're not going to stop hemorrhaging red ink until we make serious cuts to our military.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. I agree completely
My underlying thought is that if the wealthy have to lose 80% of their income to pay for these wars, the wars would stop. The only reason they are continuing is because they are profitable to the families that own the "defense" corporations. If we remove the profit, we stop the wars. We stop the wars and we can cut "defense"
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. Kick nom n/t
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. EVERY bagger I've talked to agree that military budget HAS TO BE cut, not ONE bagger I talk to
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 11:33 AM by uponit7771
...believes we can stay on the same fiscal road of military spending and remain solvent.

If the far right and far left and the center believe we have a MiC I know Obama sees it along with congress.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I see very little push from the right, be it 'Pugs or Baggers, to cut military spending
Some token cuts, yes, but nothing substantial, nothing that will truly benefit us.

And while Obama may see and understand that we have a leech bleeding us dry when it comes to the MIC, there is no political will to do anything about it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. But Little Blue Links are necessary ...
..to convince people you are serious, and can support your argument with facts!

TRUTH
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. K and bloody R! The tradeoffs
over the decade in blood and treasure in America have been surreal.

Stop the insanity.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
11. Litmus test for honesty on the economy
Any U.S politician who gives a statement or speech about the debt, the deficit, and government spending without the word "wars" appearing anywhere in their text, is either stupid or lying, and is not worth listening to.
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FlyByNight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
17. It is well past time to cut the "defense" budget
US military posture is imperial, not defensive.

The Pentagon gets damn near everything it wants while the rest of us will (probably) get austerity.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Shut Up,
and eat your Austerity Peas.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. Big capital requires Empire.

Apparently you forget or miss the true power arrangement operative here.

Ain't free speech grand? We can say these things 'til blue in the face and it means nothing to the masters of our society, nothing at all.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. kick
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-11 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
30. Source?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-11 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. For what?
What, you want footnote, endnotes, and a bibliography.

First, be more specific, second, go out and find out for yourself. All this information is out there, and there is such a thing as a search function.
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