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Who loses the most if the debt ceiling is not raised? RICH REPUBLICANS

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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:13 PM
Original message
Who loses the most if the debt ceiling is not raised? RICH REPUBLICANS
Ergo this whole GOP threat to forever taint the US's credit rating is total, complete and utter bullshit.

We should walk away from the table and let them decide themselves. Up or down: Raise the debt limit. All Democratics vote "present".

Problem solved.
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LetTimmySmoke Donating Member (970 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's a terrible idea.
It sounds fine over the short term, but is stupid over the long term. The voters don't want to see the Dems do it.

Remember - just because the GOP does stupid things doesn't mean that Dems should do so too.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Strange assertions there
1. How do you know the voters don't want the Democratics to do this?
2. How is it stupid over the long term and not in the short term?

And, of course, I do not select out stupid things that the Republcans do so that we can do them too, which is an odd, and unsupported accusation.
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emsimon33 Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
57. But they already do
Michelle must wear a "I'm with Stupid" tee shirt under her clothes.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. The country... the WHOLE COUNTRY
people really have no clue what default could means... really...
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I can tell you it means FUCK ALL to me
Edited on Sun Jul-17-11 10:29 PM by Cronus Protagonist
Really. And I think it's a true fact that the people with most of the money will be hurt the most, and they're the same ones posturing that they're going to allow a default.

If the Democratics and Obama cannot tell when they're being sold a bill of goods and threatened with empty threats, I'm available as a consultant.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Having lived through one I can tell you that you are dead wrong
the people with the most cash will be able to weather this the best. So no new jet or cruise this year? People will starve, and it will not be the O'Reilly or Becks of the world.. it will be your neighbor.

There are days I wonder if people realize (no they don't) what they are asking...
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. The debt ceiling will be raised
It was invented for the purpose of taking more from the poor. If the poor remove their chips from the table, the debt limit will still be raised. Ergo the complaint you have is moot.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. It was invented in 1912...
and no, I will not rest easy until it is raised.

JAYZUS this nihilism from BOTH SIDES is just damn crazy.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. nihilism?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. Yes on BOTH SIDES
I am using it in a very accurate accurate way.

Look up American Exceptionalism while you are at it.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. Well, I disagree on your interpretation of nihilism
I offered a solution to a political propaganda ploy, not a nihilistic philosophy.
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A Simple Game Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
82. Are you arguing against yourself?
If the poor lose and the rich lose, who wins?

If the purpose is to take from the poor, who gets what is taken?
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Gosh, are you really having that much difficulty understanding this?
There will be no default. It's a con. A sham. The debt ceiling is something that Republicans care not a whit about when the president is Republican, and neither do the Democratics. The whole gloom and doom scenarios that you and your buddies are promoting are all moot. There will be no default.

And the purpose is to take from the poor by removing benefits and entitlements using this bogus bullshit as a whip and an excuse (depending which "side" you're pretending to represent).
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A Simple Game Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
81. I don't know where this rich will suffer meme got started, do you have a source?
In my opinion the rich may suffer (very little) short term.

One of the consequences of defaulting is that interest rates, including government bond rates, will go up significantly. When the debt ceiling is raised, and it will be eventually, the government will have to pay much higher interest rates on it's bonds. When the rich, who own a lot of our debt, cash in their low interest bonds, they will then buy high interest bonds. Short term problem solved.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
43. I'd rather see a total default than a partial default on Social Security.
A total default would harm everyone.

A partial default only hurts those of us who are on Social Security and cannot get jobs any more.

A total default, as the OP says, would hurt all bond holders -- including many rich people.

The debt of the federal government is 58.9% of GDP.

The rest of the 92.7% debt is at the state level.

Here in California much of it is due to the fact that taxes cannot be raised. All we can do is borrow money to fund what we have to have.

Schwarzenegger served as governor close to 8 years with the agenda of cutting the fat in government. All he did was run up debt. I assume he could not find fat to cut.

That is how we got such a huge debt -- states had to borrow money to keep basic services going.

If the debt ceiling is raised, what then?

The Republicans absolutely refuse to pay higher taxes. How will we handle that?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. The GOP is fracturing...
so the crisis will lead to sooner or later HIGHER taxes... this is not sustainable.

Either that... or (as I have said before) the empire is falling apart and the country will break apart into three to five successor states. Some will be more ahem... somalia like than others. Hope you land in a successor state that is far more progressive.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. I'm in California.
Southern California. I think you are too maybe.

We would be progressive and capable of working together as a people.

I hope that the country stays united through this. But the Republicans seem bent on destroying everything.

Strange isn't it? The conservatives are the ones who want to tear up everything.

I have trouble believing the situation.

I hope I am just being overly pessimistic.

I doubt that Republicans "intend" to tear up the country. But it may be the necessary result of their inability to be flexible and focus on solving problems rather than being "right" at all costs.

Obama's desire to cooperate and compromise would normally have my full support. But trying to cooperate and compromise with the Republican conservatives is like trying to cooperate and compromise with a two-year-old who wants to explore your handbag.

Obama needs to distract the Republicans, and his groveling to try to get along with them just incites them to worse behavior.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. There are way too many parallels to 1859
to be honest... and remember those who tore the country back then were the conservatives of their era.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. True.
Too many parallels to a number of the most troubling times in history.

And as you point out, the fault line is almost exactly on the Mason-Dixon line with wavering states in the Midwest.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Yep, and of course we have those who think
it will be a glorious thing to go to war again...

for the record NOT me.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. If social programs are cut more than they have been, we will
have unrest in the streets I fear.

I watched from my office in downtown LA as the fires started in our 1992 riots. And I remember the riots of the 1960s.

Americans are very peaceful now. But our leadership needs to remember that when people lose hope they can do crazy, self-destructive things. It isn't that they are bad people. They just lose control.

Humans are social animals. Our young and old cannot survive without the care and assistance of the healthy and mature in the prime of life. It is our biological fate and we cannot escape it.

Similarly, we cannot escape the fact that all of us must have the basics -- a safe place to eat and enough food to survive. We are in this together.

The government is the only entity that can provide these basics to citizens in need. Our private enterprise system does not offer any model for helping people who cannot provide for themselves.

I have a friend whose husband lost his job. She was teaching and then lost her job. They lived on their retirement savings while they looked for work. She only receives $500 per month from Social Security. He is not yet old enough to receive Social Security.

This is just one of the many horrible stories I have heard about people in their 50s and 60s who have lost their jobs and had to live on their retirement savings. That is why I am so opposed to cuts in Social Security and Medicare. They are unrealistic. Too many baby boomers have been living on their meager retirement savings the past few years.

If you make people wait until they are 67 to get Medicare, you will just have to increase funding for Medicaid. A lot of people have already developed serious health problems like diabetes or skeletal weakness (needing hip and knee and shoulder replacements for example) and need regular care at the age of 65.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Multiply what you saw by orders of magnitude
if we end up in a civil war... though IMHO we only need the literal spark... people are that radicalized at this point
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #68
85. Unfortunately, I fear that you are right.
It would be help if we could trust the government to be honest with us.

A lot of the dissension is caused by the fact that the government keeps so many secrets, leaving people to theorize about what gossip, what theory about what is happening is true and what is not.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. They will not default.
These gloom and doom scenarios are moot.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Freedom is just another word for _______ ____ __ ____.
People are coming to terms with the fact that their well being is tied to the well being of the whole. The factor that may be at play with all this is the fact that some of these rich and powerful people may themselves be looking for a change, looking for something more substantial and real than a big bank account. We'll see how this plays out, but no matter what you can mark my words: This is one of the most important moments in history of this century. What happens here is of great importance.

Peace.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wrong. Interest rates will jump up, which will impact anyone
who needs to borrow money for any reason. Those rich enough to lend money (i.e., buy bonds) may actually benefit.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. WRONG. It will not impact me.
Or any of the millions of people in this country who already cannot borrow money. Besides, the point is that someone with big bucks in the bank, lots of stocks, real estate, whatever wealth you choose, they will be hurt the most, which is why it is crystal clear that all these rich Republican millionaire fat cats will NEVER hurt themselves, ergo they WILL NOT LET IT DEFAULT. Hence all this bullshit posturing is just a lever for them to use to step on the rest of us, who will be hurt significantly less by a default than they will.

Bush created the debt for them to use for this purpose. Reagan did the same thing. Bush senior did the same thing.

Walk away from the table and the Republicans will raise the limit themselves. They hate to lose their wealth.

Honestly, this whole debacle is like a kid holding his breath to get mummy to give him another cookie.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. You think food is expensive right now?
JUST WAIT.

Yes, it will touch you in very significant ways.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Irellevant.
You are adopting the Republican's lie. They will raise the debt ceiling.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Oh, so you don't eat food? Or pay for electricity? Or gasoline?
Lucky you. Higher interest rates and inflation won't affect you at all.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Again, you are being taken in by shrewd manipulation
They will not let the country default. You're beginning to sound like chicken little.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Maybe you should read your OP. You claim that the wealthy
will lose the most in the event of a default. That's where you're wrong. They are in a better position than most to weather the effects of a deeper, longer recession -- or a depression.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. They would lose more dollars than the rest of us combined
Ergo my OP is accurate. Sorry for thinking you would know that.

And once more. THEY WILL RAISE THE LIMIT. The whole thing is a dog and pony show.

DEBTSCARE
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. They will lose dollars they don't need to survive. And many of them
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 01:36 AM by pnwmom
have investment vehicles that can compensate for any default -- such as the ultra-shorts that Eric Cantor owns. So they won't end up with a net loss.

It's everybody else who will suffer.
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A Simple Game Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
83. Exactly, the only thing that may hurt the wealthy is if the dollar loses most of it's value.
It would then hurt them less than the poor, but it would hurt them.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #27
48. The people who own the debt are wealthy.
Along with the Social Security recipients, they hold the bonds.

They buy bonds to avoid paying taxes on their profits.

So, they would lose the most money.

The Republicans and Obama want to discriminate against bond holders by forcing Social Security recipients to lose on the value of their bonds while the rich, other bondholders get to keep the full value of their bonds.

That is why I say that a default would be preferable to a discriminatory default on the Social Security recipients' bonds.

All's fair -- and the rich Republicans and Obama have declared war on Social Security recipients. All's fair . . . . .

I'm sure that Cheney and Bush would agree with me when I say, All's fair . . . . .
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
76. "They buy bonds to avoid paying taxes on their profits"
What does that mean? People do not avoid taxes by buying bonds.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. They don't have to pay federal taxes on their state bond earnings I believe.
And about 33% of our 92.7% debt to GDP is state debt according to the chart on Wikipedia quoting the 2010 number of the IMF.

The federal debt is only 58.9% of GDP.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. How many defaults have you lived through?
I have lived through one, if not two...

Americans are NOT freaking exceptional and what happened in OTHER PLACES will be a walk in the damn park


AND EVEN IF THEY WAIT TO THE LAST SECOND AND RAISE IT THEY WILL DO DAMAGE TO THE SYSTME AND FOOD IS NOT GOING TO GO UP, IT ALREADY IS.

This level of ignorance is just freaking astounding... ON BOTH FREAKING SIDES.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. It won't happen.
It's all bullshit and your fears are honorable, but moot.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Tell that to Carter
that was the last time that technically we defaulted. Care to look at where interest rates went?

Again, ignorance and all that... with a good dose of nihilism.

:banghead:

That is all that is left.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. double post
Edited on Sun Jul-17-11 11:01 PM by Cronus Protagonist
hiccup on the board.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
47. True. Farmers will be delighted.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. No, you're not thinking this out. People with plenty of money
might actually benefit. They'll be able to earn more interest on their money.

But the ordinary person who has to pay credit card interest, or buy a used car, or get a college loan will have to pay higher interest rates. And everyone will suffer the effects of the inflation that will go along with the higher interest rates, especially the people who already have the least.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. They will not let it default, ergo your complaint is moot
They have too much to lose. We have so little to worry about.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Your whole premise is wrong. "Who loses the most" isn't
the wealthy, although they certainly don't want the default.

The people that will lose the most in the ensuing crash of the economy will be -- as always -- those who are the poorest and most vulnerable.
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metalbot Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
63. While I agree that the debt ceiling WILL get raised (to protect the wealthy), you would be impacted
If you are thinking "I'm already so poor, this can't possibly affect me", please consider that your personal situation will get much worse the more people who are in your position.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. If you agree it will get raised, and it will, the gloom and doom scenario is moot
No point to it.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
78. Your post here proves without question that you have no clue...
What would happen should the debt ceiling not be raised and the full faith and credit of the USA is downgraded.

If you think you have nothing now, get ready for less than nothing.

If you think food is expensive now, get ready to pay 100x more than usual for Top Ramen.

If you think gas is expensive now, just wait until you can't drive a car and can't afford a bus ticket on one of the few remaining buses available to you.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. That is true unless they are bondholders.
But a default will cause inflation, lots of it.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. How many countries hold US Dollars in their reserves
Edited on Sun Jul-17-11 10:29 PM by FreakinDJ
Lots

Wouldn't be a complete melt down of the world monetary system but it would be close

Dollar Still Main Reserve Currency
http://www.gfmag.com/archives/134-february-2011/11063-f...
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. It doesn't matter, the Republcians will RAISE THE LIMIT!
Think about it and you'll come to the correct conclusion. This is just like a kid holding his breath to get more cookies from mommy.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Agreed - it is "Brinkmenship"
but more then that it is "Who is going to control the message into the 2012 Elections"

on that front I believe Obama has a slight chance of winning
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Big business will ring their collective necks thin if they allow a default. n/t
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. And they ARE big business, ergo they WILL NOT LET IT DEFAULT!
Sorry for the yelling... I'm not yelling at you, that was for the benefit of the others on here who are taking the Republican position. They're like Aunt Agatha, who's pinching mommy and telling her to give the lad a cookie before he kills himself by holding his breath.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. Their bluff is ridiculously transparent.
Republicans represent the very wealthiest corporations and individuals and those core sponsors simply will not allow their fortunes to be jeopardized by default and the resulting financial chaos.

As you said, their "base" has the most to lose of anyone and I suspect the top .01 percent feel a gnawing resentment at their fortunes being used as a bargaining chip. Republicans are weakened by pressure from their own side but sometimes I think our own side is too wrapped up in the election cycle or too financially compromised in itself to see it.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Our own side are also the RICH and own lots of stock and such like
They're just smart enough to know they need to raise the debt ceiling, but not smart enough to see they're being manipulated.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
41. You are very right on this issue.
Those whose fortunes are based on stability and the status quo have the most to lose. It's kind of funny to see those with very little to lose balance their own losses against that and think it's an even bargain.

Pressure from the Chamber of Commerce and Wall Street is starting to come to bear on Republicans. McConnell looks like he about to soil his pants. They are bluffing.
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A Simple Game Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
84. They are smart enough to be rich, smart enough to have power, but
not as smart as someone who is so poor they have nothing to lose?

You should do some exercises after that stretch.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
64. And Obama called the bluff with one of his own
Upped the pot with "EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE" they knew the gig was up, walked away.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. SOME Rich Repigs Will Make a Killing on their Ultrashort ETFs
They are betting that we WILL default, and they will make a killing if their minions in Congress can pull it off.
They let Eric Cantor in on a tiny piece of the action, as was reported in the news.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Either they will make a killing, or they will at least be buffered
from the losses -- which most of us will not be.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I Know. The Repigs are Practicing the Snidely Whipsnade School of Politics
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Incitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. if this happens, the destruction will PALE in comparison to the Bush recession..
Edited on Sun Jul-17-11 11:18 PM by Incitatus
I don't think most Americans know what is going on. I had to explain to 3 people today what the debt ceiling even is. News ratings are very low considering to the whole population and even fewer go online to see what is going on in politics.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. Personally, I'm learning to speak Spanish.
This country is just getting crazier every day. I'm strongly considering relocating to someplace else.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
32. Have we ever not raised it? Lets try defaulting for a change...
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
34. The stock market certainly doesn't believe there's any real chance of default.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. They know that, I do, and now the rest of DU does
...apart from some scaremongering...
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
65. Exactly. How many times have we been told that the markets will recoil if they just
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 01:12 PM by Marr
don't feel "confident"? I mean, we're regularly told that the whole system will shake if Wall Street gets so much as a case of melancholy, and yet here they are, claiming economic armageddon is days away, and the markets are chugging along like normal.

I'm amazed that anyone can even pretend to believe this is a legitimate threat.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. I am so glad that you see that too
It seems most people on here are unable to see past the rhetoric.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. You're WRONG! Wealthy people will be able to weather the storm and/or
move their moey to some investment that will limit their losses. Everyone else will suffer greatly from extremely high interest rates, mtg. adjustments, credit card bill interest, inability to buy a house or a car, or any other big ticket item. Every individual, small business, and even moderate sized business will be greatly harmed, and for what? To be able to say I stood my ground? That's just foolish.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #35
58. +1. The percentage will be much higher for those that already can't afford things.
OP doesn't think this through very well.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
40. media whores will blame it on democrats.
nt
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
42. The real rich are who the Washington GOP serves.
Edited on Mon Jul-18-11 12:13 AM by MilesColtrane
And, they would not be significantly hurt if the dollar crashes.

You didn't see the Carnegies, Astors, Rockefellers, or Fords standing in soup lines in the 30s.

If properly hedged, the modern day robber barons could do quite well for themselves in the event of a major economic catastrophe.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
51. "ergo", I like that. Short, sweet, and to the point.
I agree, and then Obama should turn to look at all of the Republican Congressmen assembled behind him when he signs the debt ceiling bill, raising it, and say, "what a bunch of wusses you guys turned out to be."

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!
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MouseFitzgerald Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
54. Thats the way it should have been since the beginning
It was always a bluff. There should be one up or down vote on whether or not to raise the debt ceiling. Republicans would be able to choose to either raise it or be solely responsible for not raising it. If they chose not to raise it they would cease to exist as a political party, they know it.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. Sanity doesn't sell detergent and Dove, which is why all you hear about is armageddon
And you're right, a bluff as transparent as this needs to be exposed.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
59. Like your idea of letting them vote on it, but you couldn't be more wrong about who loses the most.
:hi:
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
61. I saw that almost from Day One.
K&R
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
62. hoooooo boy, look at what you started
great point!
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
66. The rich have the assets to ride out any collapse.
They have many homes.

The middle class, and the poor, would be crushed. Lacking assets, they can't wait live with no income. Most of the rich don't need an income.

Not a sane proposal.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. There will not be any collapse at all
Because they will raise the debt ceiling. So your proposition is moot.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Which should also be said of your OP then I guess ... its moot.
Why ask about the impact of an event you know won't happen?
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Spike89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
67. Very common mistake
Yes, you are right that defaulting will hurt the rich the most. The problem with your argument is the very simple fact that it won't hurt them exclusively. Although the rich will "get hurt" the most, they really won't feel anywhere near the pain that the working poor will feel. Losing $1 million must surely smart, but the only ones likely to get hurt that deeply have many more millions to help salve their wounds. Working poor might only lose a $1,000, but that could be the difference between keeping or losing your house, which can affect employment, which can make them poor enough that in the future, stupid policies can't hurt them at all.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. Yes, but because the people in power will lose a LOT, they will NOT let it default
Hence all the claims of a looming financial armageddon are moot, and this is reflected in the markets by NO CHANGE, because the marketeers all know what the Republicans all know, which is that the ceiling will be raised no matter what happens.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. That's incorrect.
If the Dems all "walk away", a clean bill passes in the Senate, but not in the House. The Tea Party nuts don't intend to vote for it. Given that, Boehner can't get enough YES votes unless at least some Dems vote YES.

If they vote PRESENT, the bill fails in the House ... and the media would blame the Dems in a heart beat for the disaster that follows.

The old GOP would have acted as you say ... but with the 80 or so tea party nuts in the House, its not true.
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