Unless I'm missing something, it seems I owe the president an apology.

[WilliamPitt]

Though I never came right out and said "He's going to kill SS and Medicare," I certainly made the argument that he was heading in that direction, and that it was all too possible he was going to give away the store.

Well, unless something truly insane happens, it appears Mr. Obama played the GOP like a fiddle on this debt-limit thing. So far, so good.

My apologies, sir.

[joeybee12]

1. For handing the Senate to the repukes on a silver platter?

Well, then apologize away.

[WilliamPitt]

2. How do you see that happening?

?

[joeybee12]

5. When a Dem running for the senate talks about preserving medicare and social security and how

the repukes want to kill both (which they do), that repuke can throw back Obama's words from this past week...he's taken away the Dems' strongest selling point...everything Obama does is all about Obama, because by selling dems out this week he got the pundits to fawn over him...it may help him in 2012, but it screws over the rest.

[jtown1123]

7. Yep.

[WilliamPitt]

8. I'm not sure I agree.

Obama got a big fat earful from pretty much the entire Dem caucus when he coughed up that proposal. I think they can stand on their record and their statements when campaign time comes around. We'll see. I think it's too early for anyone to be winding funeral shrouds around anything, but as the OP indicates, I've been wrong before. :)

[KittyWampus]

19. Post the exact quote they'll throw back at Obama.

[JuniperLea]

24. I'd like to see that too...

I don't think the poster has quite wrapped their mind around what just went down.

So many had themselves convinced this was a horrific act on Obama's part, they were blind to the game plan and the GOTP's options.

From my POV... the GOTP have no real options left. If they continue in their current 'everything Obama does is bad, bad, bad' mode, and I'm betting they most certainly will, anything they say or do on this matter going forward can only make them look all the more anti-American, anti 'we the people' and incredibly greedy and foolish.

Everything the government does on behalf of we the people will be negotiated between the two main ruling parties, it has always been so. What concerns me some is this 'we've been used as pawns' meme... it has always been so with these issues. Throwing this into the mix now looks foolish, IMHO. It's as if someone was born yesterday.

[jtown1123]

55. When was the last time you heard a Democratic President offering SS and Medicare cuts?

We weren't born yesterday.

This shit storm hasn;t even started yet. Wait until campaign season is in full swing:

http://mediamatters.org/research/201107130001

[jtown1123]

54. Here's quite a few articles for you

http://mediamatters.org/research/201107130001

[bahrbearian]

29. Yup Yup, he put it on the table and they will never let it go.

He play no one like a fiddle, he caved.

[ChiciB1]

33. DING! DING! DING! Stop With The GAME PLAYING! I'm Tired Of Trying

to figure out what's up or down anymore! GET SPECIFIC or SHUT-UP!

[Kahuna]

45. That's just not how politics work. Have you been watching what's been

going on for the past few decades? :eyes:

[jtown1123]

56. When have the Republicans given up anything, ever? That's what I thought

[madinmaryland]

95. I agree with Mr. Pitt's post #8. I don't believe that it will turn the senate

over to the repubkes.

[karynnj]

91. If Obama gets the debt ceiling raised without hurting SS and Medicare

and without huge cuts that harm those who can least afford it, he will have HELPED the Democrats retain the Senate. This battle has forced the Republicans to show their values. This might be used by vulnerable Democrats - like Ben Nelson, who said he would not vote to cut Medicare and SS to contrast that with the fact that ALL the Republicans voted for the Ryan budget which guts Medicare. The public is NOT with the Republicans here. (Not to mention, once the Democrats get a candidate - this argument may make the choice on issues clear enough that even with all the good press, Scott Brown will be one and done.

[damntexdem]

3. I am still outraged by what he did and will issue no apology.

And it is still unclear whether the music will really emerge from the fiddle.

If he gets a raised debt ceiling without hurting SS and Medicare, without losing the end of the Dubya tax cuts, and without big cuts to necessary spending, good. I'll vote for him in 2012. But I will not work for his reelection, as I did in 2008.

[bigmonkey]

61. How is this helpful to you?

You make it more difficult for the better of two prospective candidates, from your own point of view, to win. How is this not shooting yourself in the foot. What is your rationale for encouraging the worse of two evils? To make a point? To whom?

[Bluerthanblue]

4. not an easy thing for many people

to do, or very common these days.

bravo, Will Pitt.

:hi:

[11 Bravo]

6. That's also the way I see it, Will.

We are, of course, in the minority. The "Ready, Fire, Aim" brigade has already convicted the President of misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance in office.)

[Kahuna]

36. People like to think and say that the president is naive because he

thinks he can work with the repukes. WRONGO, on so many levels. He is smart. He knows who they are and what their agenda is. He is the one who warned all of us to not give the keys back to the same people who drove us into the ditch in the first place. He did his part. He can't make people listen. It's our country too. We all have our part and if we're foolish enough to let the repukes control the agenda, then how is it that we can blame the president for the outcome?

[seabeyond]

74. i just keep mouth shut, listen to the battles and wait to see what is going on.

no sense jumping in when we dont have the info

[tekisui]

9. We don't know what the deal will be yet.

I still think he should have never made the offer and am still worried about what is to come.

[aquart]

14. There is no obligation to be monolithically one way or the other.

If it turns out well I am happy hosannas. If ill, I want thunderbolts hurled by Zeus. In the meantime, I believe it is a service to democracy to have truthful reactions to the knowledge of events I am currently allowed to have.

[theophilus]

40. I agree totally, If, at the end of the "day" Mr. Obama has truly made

progress and positive change I will sing his praises to the heavens. If he turns out to be not nearly as good as his rhetoric, I will admit it. If he seems to have refused to fight for me and others in the lower and middle classes and has given the corporate shills things they should not have gotten I will regret voting for him. Time will tell.

[sad sally]

75. Agree

I want to trust him, but we cannot know right now whether the steadfastness of Obama’s rhetoric in defending core liberal and Democratic ideals will be matched by equal resoluteness in practice when the battles heat up and the temptation to make deals and jettison core priorities intensifies.

I sincerely hope the President might remember this Yogi Berra saying, "When you get to a fork in the road, take it" (interpretation: when you find a challenge, overcome it.)

[aquart]

10. Cultivating a graceful apology comes in very handy.

I am quick to enrage and accuse, I need to be equally swift in admitting when I'm wrong.

Especially when I am giggly and delighted to be wrong.

[Kahuna]

46. Bless your heart aquart... That rhymed!

:hi:

[existentialist]

11. I've underestimated Obama before too.

I too, do not like what he was offering.

But the fact that the Republicans rejected it paints the Republicans in such a negative light that maybe it was just good politics.

It didn't resolve the issues, of course, but if the issues were essentially unresolvable because of Republican intransigence and delusional thinking that needed to be shown, and it has been shown.

I still don't like what Obama was offering, but that the Republicans rejected it without real consideration shows them to be just God awful.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. So you are ok with offering up SS and Medicare as sacrificial lambs

to appease the Gods Of Neoliberalism?

Seriously?

Just because Abraham's god stopped Abraham from slaughtering his son doesn't make it any less fucked up that Abraham offered to slay his son for his beloved god.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

32. It has always been so...

As long as we've had a two party system, these items have been put on the table... over and over again.

Unless you just fell off the turnip truck, you should know this.

[jtown1123]

57. Hmm really? These programs are always offered? I thought they were the third rail, sacred cows...

[Warren Stupidity]

64. No they haven't.

The last time a Democrat did this was the hideous reform they implemented that yanked up the fica tax to allegedly insure that boomers would have adequate funds in the trust fund for retirement - when in reality they were papering over the mess being created by reaganomics and getting ready for the entirely predictable screwage being set up for execution now. So "all the time" would be once every 30 years or so.

[FiveGoodMen]

63. Agreed.

Good example! :thumbsup:

[Poll_Blind]

13. I have no idea what new frame of reference you're using to base this sea-change on.

While I don't always agree with your style, being this plastic before the whistle blows isn't something I associate with it.

PB

[NightWatcher]

15. how bout we all just wait to see what happens?

if he attacks SS, we then turn our rage on him
if he gets what we want out of the pukes, we then heap praise on him
either way, lets wait til whatever happens, happens.

[dionysus]

16. how's it goin Will? good day to ya..

[Hutzpa]

17. You are a bigger man than I first thought.

but I've always admired your tenacity anyway, so kudos. :thumbsup:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

18. I've found in politics the initial impression is often not the final outcome.

Occasionally this is something I'm grateful over when things play out. This may well be one of those situations.

[CakeGrrl]

20. k/r

Nice to see some willing to allow that there's more to this situation than the first impression.

[K8-EEE]

21. He does not want to be "Cartered"

Nor should any of us WANT him to be, if we value this country at all and realize what the alternatives are!

[Kahuna]

42. Right you are. In my post below, I state that I think..

Obama is the most honest president since Carter. But the Dems didn't trust and worked against Carter back then, and the same thing is being played out against Obama. Now in hindsight, the Dems recognize what a great man Carter was....a little too late.

[lamp_shade]

22. Whew!

It was like you were slowly being dragged to the dark side. I worried.

[SnoopDog]

25. When you put something on the table...

There is always a chance that it will be acted upon.

It is very possible that if we Americans did not vigorously object, they could
have said 'see America doesn't care if cuts are made to SS".

Every time, every time our government tries to do something against the People,
we have to object. Otherwise they think we agree with them.

So, your original post was appropriate. And it is always important to remind government
of our core beliefs.

[Karmadillo]

26. "cuts to Social Security and Medicare are still on the table"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20079155-503544.html

White House officials said yesterday it's still possible that President Obama and congressional leaders could reach a deal to reduce the deficit by as much as $4 trillion over a decade -- meaning cuts to Social Security and Medicare are still on the table.

<edit>

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor on Tuesday shared with he GOP conference outlines of the deficit reduction proposals on the table, including significant changes to Medicare and Medicaid.

Cantor said Mr. Obama's proposal to achieve about $4 trillion in savings included plans to raise the Medicare eligibility age, impose means testing for Medicare, and change the Social Security cost-of-living adjustment formula.

When asked yesterday whether reports that Mr. Obama would support raising the retirement age were accurate, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, "A lot of the reporting about what has been under consideration has been accurate."

more...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karmadillo]

35. Are you saying what's in the CBS report is not true?

nt

[JuniperLea]

41. I don't think you read the story...

It's a total rehash of what has been said for the past week or so. You should pay close attention to the last dozen sentences or so, and think in terms of how the government actually works and what Obama has actually said.

But flog that dead horse all you want.

[Karmadillo]

44. "White House officials said yesterday it's still possible..."

nt

[Karmadillo]

66. And just now from USA Today: Obama still pushing for big debt deal

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/07/obama-still-pushing-for-big-debt-deal/1

Obama still pushing for big debt deal
Jul 13, 2011

President Obama and aides say they will want to go big on a debt reduction deal.

"Bigger is better," said White House spokesman Jay Carney, calling the ongoing congressional negotiations "a unique opportunity to accomplish something significant."

For the White House, that means $3 trillion to $4 trillion over ten years, an idea Obama has pushed for months -- also an idea that House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, and other Republicans pulled from their agenda because it would require tax increases.

Still, Obama gets to make his case again when he meets with Republican and Democratic congressional leaders at 4 p.m.

more..

[Warren Stupidity]

90. It's all 20-dimension chess-jitsu,

we mortals cannot understand the straturgery here. The kimono is lifted, ever so slightly, only to reveal an enigma, wrapped in a mystery, inside a ham sandwich, with cheese, AND IT IS KOSHER! And then just when it seems like defeat is in the shoes, the camel pokes it's nose inside the tent and sneezes. See? Camel Snot! King me!

[scheming daemons]

27. Many of us told you to hold off on your condemnations until you saw the end game...

....but too many progressives are way too eager to be outraged than to calmly analyze situations.


It's like you're sitting on a "outrage" powder keg and you can't wait to light the fuse... and the first thing you hear sets you off.



Relax and watch the WHOLE game going on.



Obama is a master at this.

[JuniperLea]

30. Yes he is!

I wonder if strategic game players see this more clearly than others.

I like puzzles and word games... watching ill-matched words enter these conversations has been quite disturbing to me.

Perhaps gamers keep their eye on the prize?

[Kahuna]

43. Even if you aren't a strategic game player..If you've lived on this earth..

for a certain number of years, you should be able to recognize political gamesmanship and know that you have to let it play out a while before you get your knickers in a wad.

[JuniperLea]

59. True...

I guess I'm having a hard time cutting slack on this issue because you're right... it's pretty blatant.

Makes you wonder.

[Kahuna]

37. Word, SD!

:fistbump:

[Kahuna]

31. Always keep in mind that the president never reveals his hand. He lets

people on the left and right think whatever they want to think. He lets them spew and (I'm thinking of YOU, Ed Shultz) have fits. He cannot control that and he won't try. He's much too bush for that. He has work to do. But whenever he reveals his end game the ranters (on the left and right) are left to look foolish (cat food commission, anyone?).

President Obama is the most honest president that I have beheld in all of my 57 years, aside from Jimmy Carter. But he tries to play a more skillful political game than Carter did. If we let him, President Obama will do down in history as one of the very best. It's up to us. We must all do our parts to not impede progress with emotional stances and outbursts. We need to trust that this president is trying his very best for the entire country. He has our best interests at heart, always.

Now, I will put on my flame suit. :patriot:

[JuniperLea]

38. Well said!

:patriot:

[Kahuna]

39. Thanks JuniperLea!

:hug: :patriot:

[Renew Deal]

50. "But whenever he reveals his end game the ranters are left to look foolish"

I agree with this. It pretty much happens every time.

[jtown1123]

60. Can you provide a few examples of when concerned folks have looked foolish?

I'm still reeling from the passage of Bush Tax Cuts and the implementation of the payroll tax holiday.

[Kahuna]

62. Cat Food Commission. Squawk! nt

[jtown1123]

65. What about it? They produced some shitty ideas

Who cares if no agreement was reached? What pissed me off was that Obama appointed it in the first place with the most irresponsibly chairs imaginable. One of whom sits on a JP Morgan board.

Candidate Obama mocked commissions during his campaign then turned around and appointed one which produced 300 millions milk cow teats Simpson.

[Renew Deal]

68. That's a good example. What did he get for it???

;)

[fascisthunter]

83. yet you can't name any other time

because the fact is, it's been the other way around. Bad track record...

[Renew Deal]

86. I named one above

And there are others. ;)

[fascisthunter]

88. lol...

[jtown1123]

58. I thought this was sarcastic. Oh my. Good luck with that.

[Trey9007]

85. Well said......

Theres no way Obama can take his 'proposals' off the table now. It will make it even more obvious he was playing a game, and the plan could backfire. Hes got to see his plan all the way through. In order for his plan to work, the GOP must REJECT the deal. He can't take it off the table. It looks like he is right, in thinking the GOP won't take the deal'

Ive heard Obama say the cuts he would consider would be on the supply side of entitlements, and not the benefit side. Therefore, he gives himself even more wiggle room.

For now, I must say, "well played Mr President".

In Chicago, they have a term for this. Its called, winning ugly.....

[Bobbie Jo]

34. Nice post, Will...

...and thank you for making it.

Although I doubt it will get re-posted on your behalf. :rofl:

Nicely done!

[BlueIris]

47. I don't you missed anything...

...but once it became clear that Medicare/SS cuts would not be politically sustainable, the president backed off. Your logic was solid, based on his performance thus far. I think you drew the correct conclusion, and we could still see this action carried out.

[Raven]

48. I'm not sure, Will. It appears that he put it on the table which is like

using me and millions of others as a pawn in a sick game. I'm not sure I'll ever be completely comfortable with him after this week.

[madamesilverspurs]

49. Nicely done, Will.

Your apology is well considered and should be the first of many. So far, you're singing solo, but you're hitting the right notes.


-

[Zorra]

51. That's what I thought about 3 months before the Bush tax cuts

were extended. At first, I was skeptical--but stories like the one below had me confident and convinced that the tax cuts would not be extended. Silly me, I foolishly relied on these sweet little lies while campaigning for Congressional Democrats. Instead of eating a wonderful meal of delicious crow, I ended up eating some nasty shit after having my face rubbed in it.

For me, with regard to Obama, I'll only believe him when I see it in stone from now on. My trust is broken. Hopefully, we won't mortgage the farm, and I'll apologize when all is said and done, and will then sit down to enjoy a fine meal of tasty crow.

But I'm never, ever going to eat shit again because of trusting Obama.

September 9, 2010 3:53 PM
White House: No Veto Will be Needed Over Bush Tax Cuts

The White House says it is confident Congress can find the votes this year to pass legislation extending the Bush tax cuts that does not include an extension of those cuts for the wealthiest Americans, something Republicans are calling for.

They are so confident, in fact, that White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said today there is no need for the president to consider vetoing any potential bill that would give in to the Republicans' preferences.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20015994-503544.html

[Enrique]

52. i still think he's headed in that direction

i apologize for thinking that, but that's what I think.

[trumad]

53. Pat's still suck

about time to change that Avatar. ;-)

[newportdadde]

67. I'm waiting till I see a clean deal with zero cuts, I want a straight vote as in the past.

[truebrit71]

72. Me too. I was unaware that he has recently told the gop that SS cuts are off the table...

...in fact I could have SWORN it was the other way around...

[Raine]

81. Same here. nt

[spanone]

69. takes a big man, sir.

[JoePhilly]

70. Happy to REC this ... DU has become a place where outrage can become ...

the immediate response to each and every rumor by unnamed sources.

Thus, we had some saying that Obama was "hell bent" on destroying Social Security and Medicare ... and so on.

Some who were concerned, advocated for actions like call the white House or your congress people ... many of which were generally constructive arguments.

But a scarce few who got caught up in the outrage have stepped forward and said anything as clear-headed as you have done here. I for one appreciate it.

I think debate, concern, and critical assessment is healthy ... but knee-jerk outrage ultimately hurts our efforts.

Having said that, I think its also helps us when anyone recognizes that, just maybe, just perhaps, at times, they might have started out in the former mind set (constructive), and ended up more in the latter (overly critical).

Now let's all hope he holds the ground.

[TheKentuckian]

71. The entire safety net debate has moved to the cuts area, with the President laying out the case

He screwed the pooch, bluff or not, and it won't unscrew easily.

[senseandsensibility]

73. You might be missing something.

According to recent accounts, CBS among them, the white house still wants the cuts.

[AtomicKitten]

76. It was rope-a-dope 2.0.

k&r

[Major Hogwash]

77. When was the first one?

I missed it!
Fuck, I hate it when that happens!!

Obama should just stop talking to the Republicans.
All he does is piss them off anyway.
Cantor even walked out of the talks they were having because he was so pissed off.
Those guys aren't going to give in easy.

[AtomicKitten]

79. "2.0" means an improved version of in this case a political smooth move.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=2.0&defid=2550115

[Major Hogwash]

82. Oh, sort of like what MicroSoft does. I get it now.

Obama is a freakin' genius, there's no doubt about it.
I wish he'd come back out here to Idaho just one more time so I could see him in person again.
He's amazing.
When I saw him speak the first time, it was unreal.
The conviction in his voice was so mesmerizing.
And he could actually form whole sentences, unlike Bush who just made up words and then laughed like a drunken hyena to himself.

[Shagbark Hickory]

78. He's never going to forgive you.

Not after what you said.

[madamesilverspurs]

80. For those who haven't caught up, yet --

-

[pampango]

84. Never apologize. Attack! Attack! Attack! Apologies get you nowhere. Double down on your attacks.

That's how you make a name for yourself. :)

[Rex]

87. I was fence sitting on this one...many POTUSs have said they would

'do something' to/with SS...and all decided not to. Smart move. I believe he did the same thing to the GOP on a few other occasions, maybe he was snuggling up to the GOP (or appeared to) so he could keep his 'friends' close and his 'enemies' closer. That is my bet.

[joshcryer]

89. Good for you.

Don't worry, we can all be caught up in the hyperbole, really easily.

[kath]

92. We'll see - it ain't over 'til it's over...

Sometimes the Kabuki theater is a long, dragged-out thing.

[kath]

93. From what we've heard in the past couple of days, maybe you need to take that apology off the table.

[rbnyc]

94. lol

might as well laugh