On alien life, and whether it is possible

[nadinbrzezinski]

every time we have a story... we have the same thing... no it could not, yes it could... yada...yada... yada.

So let me propose a scenario... NOT BASED ON ACTUAL SCIENCE beyond the Drake Equation... as well as actual, honest to goodness... human history.

Let's assume for a second that ET actually comes and lands in front of insert home of head of government here... you know the famous take me to your leader scenario.

So far so good.

Here are a few things implied by this... a few philosophical and a few technical.

1.- We are NOT alone... perhaps not even the center of the universe This will lead to a small crisis of faith for at leaset three major world religions... I mean Genesis one is a bitch and genesis two is not that well known... (even if that should be the actual explanation even for them)

2.- yes, our lovely aliens were able to cross space time... and we have NO FRAKING idea how they did that.

See this leads to this little problem... not only are we not alone, but if these aliens are NOT friendly, regardless of Independence day and good product placement... who doesn't love that Apple used to insert a virus? ACHOOO! We really are that behind the power curve. It will be indeed like oh ... the Aztecs, still stone based civilization, trying to face the Spaniards, who used lead ball, steel and gun powder. This is why some nobodies like Hawking, have actually said that contact with aliens is not that bright of an idea.

Now if ET happens to be friendly perhaps they can use their so far more advanced technology to help us solve some of our problems, such as global warming. If they are not that friendly, perhaps we wil not have to ponder number one.

Oh and why would they come?

Well intellectual curiosity comes to mind. I mean why send anthropologists to the Amazon to make contact with cultures in the depth of the Amazon? WHo knows Gliesse 589 might have a similar class...

Resources, why did Cortez go to Tenochtitlan? to cure that disease of his that could only be cured with Gold... (Ok greed cannot be cured, but you get the point)

It's there... why else did we have people climb Everest?

The reasons for aliens to cross that ocean (assuming for a second that it is possible... and lord knows I am aware of the problems) are many. Some, i suspect, we cannot even imagine since they are not part of our nature.

This is what? Oh yes, so far the fodder of the science fiction writer... in space operas our aliens tend to be violent, greedy and good fodder for fiction... but on a more realistic matter, ET at this point will likely be of the less advanced, with perhaps two to five actual civilizations at a time that could make contact. Given that species on earth have an average 300,000 lifespan... the time we have to make contact is rather limited in a geological time frame...

On a philosophical POV tough even accepting that there is a possibility that there is life OUT THERE, means we are not that unique.. .and that life is not that unique. To some this is a threat, a philosophical threat.

Of course on the more humorous answers to this from the 1950s, that book is a cook book!

Oh and it goes with out saying, if this scenario ever came reality...

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)
English physicist & science fiction author (1917 - )

[Demeter]

1. I married an alien

he changed citizenship so he could vote Republican after I divorced him...after 18 years of swearing he wanted to keep his birthright.

Bah humbug.

[Obamanaut]

2. Another poster and I are due beer and travel money, and many experiences. nt

[Angry Dragon]

5. Pick up the beer on the way out

and the Force be with you

[RKP5637]

3. Hawking makes some good points IMO. Also, many can't even accept gay marriage, imagine

some trying to wrap their heads around an alien visit! And any advanced civilization trying to wrap their heads? around us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I know... it is quite hard of a concept actually

and it implies humans are not that central to life in the universe.

[Angry Dragon]

6. It is only a hard concept to the ones that think man is

the center of the universe

For a long time I have felt that if mankind was the best the universe had to offer
then the universe was in deep shit or had a great sense of humor

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. True, in some ways, but I am not that hard on people

things have gotten really weird over the last five hundred years.

The earth is not flat (nor was it flat for navigators of the era, but)

It is not the center of the solar system... I mean poor Galileo paid for that one.

It is not at the center of our stellar arm... or the galaxy (we'd be in deep shit, black hole and all)

The galaxy is not at the center of it's group... and so it goes.

Now we learn that we might be part of many universes...

We are really becoming more and more insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

I mean Sol is one of 300,000 suns in the galaxy... okay it is a nice slow burning star, but you get the idea.

And how big the universe is... well it is really since Hubble, so we need to give people time to adjust to the idea... we are really that small of a speck in the grand scheme of things.

[RKP5637]

12. Yep, like a speck of sand on an extremely huge beach. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Worst, more like an atom, perhaps a quark

and yes, I am playing with the concept in fiction.

[MorningGlow]

23. "The Universe...

"...as has been observed before, is an unsettling big place. The fact which, for the sake of a quiet life, most people tend to ignore. Many would happily move to somewhere rather smaller of their own devising, and this is what most beings, in fact, do.

"For instance, in one corner of the Eastern Galactic Arm lies the great forest planet Oglaroon. The entire ‘intelligent’ population of which lives permanently in one fairly small and crowded nut tree. In which tree they’re born, live, fall in love, carve tiny, speculative articles in the bark on the meaning of life, the futility of death, and the importance of birth control, fight a few - very minor - wars, and eventually die strapped to the underside of some of the less accessible outer branches.

"In fact, the only Oglaroonians who ever leave their tree at all are those who are hurled out for the heinous crime of wondering whether any of the other trees might be capable of supporting life at all, or indeed be anything other than illusions brought on by eating too many Oglanuts.

"Exotic though this behaviour may seem, there is no life-form in the galaxy not in some way guilty of the same thing. Which is why the Total Perspective Vortex is as horrific as it undoubtedly is. For when you are put in the Vortex, you are given just one, momentary glimpse of the size of the entire unimaginable infinity of creation along with a tiny little marker saying, 'You are here'.

"The Vortex derives its picture of the whole universe on the principle of extrapolated matter analyses. To explain - since every piece of matter in the universe is in someway affected by every other piece of matter in the universe, it is, in theory, possible to extrapolate the whole of creation - every galaxy, every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition, and their economic and social history, from, say - one small piece of fairy cake.

"The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so, basically, in order to annoy his wife. Trin Tragula, for that was his name, was a dreamer, a speculative thinker, or, as his wife would have it, an idiot. And she would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he would spend staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins, or doing spectrographic analyses of pieces of fairy cake. 'Have some sense of proportion,' she would say, thirty-eight times a day.

"And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex - just to show her. And in one end he plugged the whole of reality, as extrapolated from a fairy cake, and in the other end he plugged his wife - so that when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it. To Trin Tragula’s horror, the shock annihilated her brain. But to his satisfaction, he realised he had conclusively proved that if life is going to exist in a universe this size, the one thing it cannot afford to have, is a sense of proportion. And it is into this Vortex that Zaphod Beeblebrox has been put, and from which, a few seconds later, he emerges..."

ZAPHOD: Hi.

GARGRAVARR: Beeblebrox! You’re…!

ZAPHOD: Fine, fine. Could I have a drink please?

GARGRAVARR: You’ve been in the Vortex?!

ZAPHOD: You saw me, kid.

GARGRAVARR: And you saw the whole infinity of creation?!

ZAPHOD: The lot baby - it’s a real neat place, you know?

GARGRAVARR: And you saw yourself in relation to it all?!

ZAPHOD: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

GARGRAVARR: And what did you experience?!

ZAPHOD: It just told me what I knew all the time: I’m a really great guy! Didn’t I tell ya, baby? I am Zaphod Beeblebrox!

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. We just got a new copy of this old classic

We are fans.

I should remember to always leave home with a towel with flowers.

[TheKentuckian]

28. You almost have to be a wonderful soul.

[awoke_in_2003]

65. I have the leather bound edition...

that has the whole series in it. Time to crack it open again. Don't panic

[qazplm]

7. first, aliens absolutely do exist

In an infinite or even near-infinite universe, the odds of us being the only place with life are, no pun intended, astronomical.

Heck even if there were only one place per galaxy with life that would still be billions and billions of alien civilizations/planets with life in the universe.

Yep, pretty hard to come here in person. Robots could do it given enough complexity and time. If they could overcome the issues, then the only reason to come here is curiosity. There would be no resource here they'd need that they couldn't get easier and in greater amounts a whole host of other places (more water on Europa than Earth, more minerals in asteroids than Earth, etc). So therefore, I'd assume we'd not be under any real threat, we'd be studied, examined, probably without us even knowing it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Why I mentioned the Drake Equation. I agree with you

we are far from alone...

But every time we mention this we get the but, but, space and light speed... well if anybody is capable of travelling those distances ... even in robot form... we are talking of that much more of an "advanced" civilization.

Of course if anybody out there has Voyager crash land in their back yard... not likely in the expected survival of humanity btw

[defendandprotect]

66. Mining might have been one reason ...

Allegedly the "greys" are robots of a kind --

needless to say given the speed and movement of the spaceships -- not the huge ones

said to be a mile long, but the saucer shapes -- no human could survive that ride!

Have you not ever read any books on claims re alien abduction?

In fact, thought John Mack of Harvard was especially good on moving through that --

[yawnmaster]

81. universe is not infinite. There is no such thing as near-infinite. eom

[Codeine]

8. You should fix your attribute for the final quote.

Mr. Clarke died in '08.

[Motown_Johnny]

11. We already know that they only visit trailer parks, so landing on the East Lawn is out

Your assumption that they would come in person is also unfounded. I would assume an "unmanned" craft would be more efficient, even if some type of trained biologic was used for the grunt work that we use robots for.


I'm not getting my hopes up because of that 20 year prediction. We hear this kind of crap all the time.


I do believe that life outside our solar system is a given, even intelligent life is so highly probable as to be considered a given. I just don't think interstellar travel is ever going to be practical for any species.



Have you read the "Rama" series?

I'm not a big Clarke fan but I think he did those 4 pretty well. The first one is as reasonable an encounter as I can imagine (that is still fun to read).

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. I went for the most radical

in reality even sending robotic probes that can go at even half the speed of light implies a huge society investment, and a technological leap... though not as high as FTL travel with actual aliens on board. And don't get me started on the one way ticket nature of the trip under current knowledge.

Number one is still valid... we are not alone... a hell of a proposition for many on planet earth. It will still lead to a crisis of faith for many.

Now for a second let's entertain the start of your post... visiting the trailer parks would make sense if you wanted to hide your presence from the elites... but still have actual contact with the locals... I mean who will believe Aunt Bertha?

And I should add that to my file folder of humorous shorts. my mom met an alien, or something like that. The take me to your leader was done to death in the 50s... but i was going into both the technical matter and the philosophical matter, I suspect there is resistance to the mere concept, for philosophical reasons, just as a few people (what is it 45%) resist evolution on religious reasons.

[RKP5637]

17. Then again, they could be very close.

"A Physicist Explains Why Parallel Universes May Exist"
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/24/132932268/a-physicist-exp...

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I am a fan of his work, as well as Michio Kaku

and yes, Sagan RIP

[RKP5637]

20. I love to listen to Michio Kaku and also miss Sagan. I also miss George Carlin. He

always had such a good handle on the real reality we live in ...

[Motown_Johnny]

80. these wouldn't be close, Type 1 parallel universes are to far to reach

even if you could move at the speed of light


At the link you provided the first part of the page talks about parallel universes that exist within our own universe.


I know that may sound like a contradiction since it is all within the same space-time but that is what Type 1s are.

They are not close because they exist beyond what we now call the light horizon or the cosmic horizon.

If we could travel at the speed of light we could not only never reach any of these but we couldn't even get any closer to them. The theory is that space itself is expanding at a rate faster than the speed of light, so even if we travel as fast as light those type 1 universes are still moving away from us even faster than we are traveling toward them.


It is a fun little mind game but it doesn't have any real impact on our existence.

[RKP5637]

94. When I was a little kid I used to think maybe one day I would wake up to

an alternate universe. I'm still here! Yep, as you say, "It is a fun little mind game but it doesn't have any real impact on our existence."

[Motown_Johnny]

96. ah, but to everyone else in every other universe you are in an alternate universe

you wake up here every day (that you wake up)

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. You know what is amazing?

a hundred years ago this conversation on type one, two, three and four alternate universes, or a multiverse, would fit in fantasy...

[Motown_Johnny]

98. it still kinda does, there is no actual evidence of any of these

right now it is still speculation








OK, there are some indicators that maybe some of these might exist but IMO none of it reaches the threshold for me to consider it evidence

[d_r]

13. what if we aren't alone but

we are the most advanced civilization in the universe?

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Then our sensors will pick up

planets that are candidates for life in my lifetime anyway and number one still applies... we are not alone is a huge philosophical leap, I will contend as large and big as discovering fire or writing.

[d_r]

33. Oh I agree with you

[guitar man]

19. They may have already dropped by

.... took a look and said "screw that, I'm not going down there, they're crazy!!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Or they are running a long distance study

[RKP5637]

22. Yep, I often think that too. n/t

[BzaDem]

25. To extend your point, I wonder if the limits to FTL travel are the reason we are still here, and

have not (and possibly will not) come in contact with ET.

Since if there were a way to travel effectively FTL by manipulating space-time, what's to say that Earth wouldn't have already been discovered? Or to put it another way, perhaps the fact that we have no evidence of other civilizations is not evidence that such civilizations don't exist, but rather evidence that effective FTL travel is impossible.

Though your point that we haven't been around longer than a blink in terms of the history of the Universe is well taken.

[Fumesucker]

26. I suspect we will create other intelligences before we find any in space..

Either by genetic engineering on other animals or cybernetic intelligences or both.

I feel reasonably certain there are other intelligences out there but the distances are vast beyond human comprehension and the likelihood of contacting them in a reasonable time frame seems low.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I suspect we will find tantalizing evidence of life off sol

before we do that... now sentient intelligent life that we could have a conversation with ... not so much... not even in 300,000 years... assuming we make it that far.

[Fumesucker]

36. I would expect somewhat ambivalent evidence of intelligent BEMs within a century..

Probably not attempts to communicate but more likely just seeing really large engineering projects a long way away, Dyson Spheres, Bussard Ramjets, black holes as artificial power sources or something completely unexpected but impossible to explain by natural means.

Neutrino and gravity wave telescopes are only now becoming seriously operational, every time we find a new way of looking at the universe we find stuff we didn't expect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Exactly and the Spitzer telescope is just the begining

We live, if we survive, in exciting times actually,

[jberryhill]

27. There are no resources here which are not in greater abundance elsewhere, btw /nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. To think it possible that we may be the only intelligent life in an area that defies

any and all measurement due to its size is arrogance of the first order.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Yet we see it regularly

500 years ago... sure... our universe, no pun, was very small. These days... we are talking multiverses.

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. You are so right nadin...

Multiverses, possibly multimensions.

Man's arrogance is legendary, even among the lower life forms of the universe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. I think what we wil see is a process of evolution

no pun... going from an earth centric system to a holocentric system took that. We will face the same... and this will be in the category of fire... and will shatter our current concepts, and cultural values. The New World did... it took a hundred years,

Why?

Nowhere in the holy bible or the ancient authorities was this new continent mentioned. I suspect finding we are not alone will make the invention of America seem like a walk in the park. Especially, to be brutally honest, for the western mind. I suspect India will have less issues
...

[coalition_unwilling]

68. Particularly if one accepts the full implications of the theories of

natural selection and evolution, the idea that 'homo sapiens' represents the height of evolutionary development strikes me as arrogance of the first order.

My own personal feeling is that if there are alien species who have figured out ways to do interstellar travel, they will look at life on earth pretty much as an interesting exhibit, much like we look at aquariums or other closed animal colonies on earth.

[snooper2]

32. The universe is so vast I think only about 20% of the population

can actually grasp it...

Of course alien life exists. If it can perform inter-stellar travel is a different discussion. Go look up what it means when somebody states that a specific galaxy is 890 million light years away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. If there is any travel among the stars

it will be (as far as we can understand) between relatively near by stars, and it will still include some really fancy... as of yet to be invented, means of transport, or one way trips in generation ships. (We are talking of 50-100 LY at much, unless we can break that barrier... given the sound barrier was believed to be unbreakable at one point, we may as of yet discover the theoretical means to break light... just not in my life time.)

[GreenStormCloud]

99. The sound barrier was not believed to be unbreakable.

After all, bullets travelled faster than sound. The problem was an engineering one of not spending too much time accelarating through the transonic region. Jet propulsion of the time took a plane to near sonic speed and the buffeting waves began to shake the plane to pieces. Finally enough thrust was developed, and stronger planes, so that the transonic region wasn't a huge problem.

It was never a law of physics problem, only and engineering one.

The speed of light is a law of physics problem.

[AnnieBW]

35. They're probably listening to Fox Snooze

and deciding that there's no intelligent life on Earth.

[anthroman]

37. Who says they're alien?

They could be earthlings but evolved and doing backward time travel. There are also reports of several different types or species of aliens. Its.....quite complex...

And they already flew over Washington, talked to Eisenhower, it was all on Coast to Coast...

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2006/12/07

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Forgive me for this, coast to coast is not precisely where

I go for my hard science nooz.

I go there for my ideas for science fiction stories, though.


Still welcome to DU.

[cbdo2007]

38. With God, all things are possible.

even aliens

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Forgive me for not including god in this equation

[cbdo2007]

43. haha, sorry. it was just the first thing that popped into my head

when you asked if it was possible. I was being ironic.

If there is a "God" it is probably some type of alien life from another planet/galaxy that created us, so it may not be that distant of an idea.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I am playing with that exact concept in fiction

that said, no... cosmologically speaking there might be a "god" at the moment of creation, aka one more particle of matter than antimater.

If I want to take a really philosophical POV the miracle is that we have risen to the point we ask these questions.

But my image of god is that of the old testament, and for some silly reason I no longer entertain the idea of one that intervenes in evolution, even that much more advanced civilization playing 'god"

[RandomThoughts]

46. There you go again.

First they say God doesn't exist becuase he allows for free will, and there is suffering.

Then if they see interaction, they say he should not interact to fix things.


If you did not want God to intercede, then you should not have been running around blaming him for the 'suffering' of the world that was created by him loving people enough to give them free will. You even said that if people are in hardship, God is punishing them, if he is not, don't you think that might tick him off for you blaming your free will actions that are creating hardships on God? Maybe I am wrong, but it does not make sense for people to claim, hardships are from something they can not claim to understand, and should think and feel a bit more on such topics.

See where the problem is that many don't know they are also the problem, so what is the best interaction, education. Or that's how I think of it. So all those singers and story tellers, that helped me learn, I like them. Even if not perfect.


heh, I am due beer and travel money, and am thankful for just and compassionate interactions to correct that. Why? becuase I am not going to pick up a club and beat it out of them, when that is what they wanted me to do, when I refused to be mean and instead supported concepts of justice and compassion by defending due process.

But anyways, what is the question?

And Bruce Willis, has been in many great films. So there.

Jessica Alba - Sin City Bar Scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfpKjRitYdE




Brothers in Arms - Dire Straits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

Bonnie Raitt - I Can't Make You Love Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW9Cu6GYqxo

Bonnie Raitt - Nick Of Time
http://www.123video.nl/playvideos.asp?MovieID=407128

Dire Straits - Walk of Life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZxVC0GB838


Constantine - Bring me to life (Evanescence)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8d3K_hngw




And still standing.

And with better systems many of those sufferings would not occur.

Nickelback - If Everyone Cared
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUSZyjiYuY

[awoke_in_2003]

67. the aliens...

stole your beer and travel money

[RandomThoughts]

76. I don't believe in aliens.

Although I do know some are in that delusion, that they are aliens, to try to get them to make the mistake of superiority flaws.

[provis99]

53. there is as much proof for aliens as there is for god.

In other words, none.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Alas we will find evidence for the existence of alien life

not necessarily sentient alien life, well before we can prove the existence of god... and this is something that is galling to many here on Earth.

All we know tells us that life is more than very likely out there.

[provis99]

56. there is no basis for making conclusions on the "likelihood"

There is no basis for assigning probabilities to the existence of life in the universe, since we are so far dealing only with a sample size of 1. Just because you want to believe in aliens, does not make them exist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. yes there is... drake equation

and recent findings of the basis of life in deep space and comets, try following the xenobiology at NASA... or is NASA making up their data as they go?

For example it is suspected that the formation of OCEANS on rocky worlds is common

http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.2710

Read on the Drake Equation. REALLY, READ ON IT.

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_...


I understand that this is threatening to many humans on earth for not faith reasons, ontological reasons. IF (and when) we find evidence that yes, there is life out there... and we are quite close in historic terms, I know many humans will not accept it. Why? IT IS THREATENING for ontological reasons. In fact the same reasons that led to that little problem with Galileo and why it was so threatening to the church...

And when we do... it will be the greatest discovery since oh FIRE. Yes with that large of the implications as well.

Oh and one more thing, up to ten years ago you could say that there was one solar system... we now know of 563 xeno planets... how many stars? How many do you think will have planets in the goldy lock zone? by the way this is not wanting to believe.. the EVIDENCE as in scientific evidence is POINTING IN THIS DIRECTION,in fact, we will need to revise the planet number for Drake... there are more than we thought... or that Frank Drake believed existed in the 1960s when planetary formation was thought to be RARE...

By the way aliens may be as simple as bacteria...

[provis99]

59. the Drake Equation is totally made up nonsense.

There is no basis for assigning imaginary probabilities. One might as well assign a 1% chance that any given planet is populated by flying monkeys.

And your claim that we are close to finding proof is laughable. You've got no basis for assigning a probability to that, either. Might as well claim we are close to discovering immortality, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. So the found planets are also nonesense?

You simply do not believe this is possibly and I think it is on ontological reasons.

And in HISTORIC terms yes we are... it will happen in my life time if current deployment of deep space arrays continues. When that happens I will celebrate that major achievement. I suspect you won't...

And my basis is not ontological, which discovering immortality is... it is based on the current state of the science. We even have candidates that may harbor life...

Try to keep up with the science, or not. This is not fantasy... or fiction, this is the state of the science and current research.

Or did Nasa invent finding the basic amino acids of life in a comet? Again, something that would have been said impossible ten years ago.

Are thy inventing all this?

By the way historic terms are quite simple, our recorded history is 10K years... forty years is near.

[provis99]

61. so now you are assigning imaginary probabilities to my thinking?

Believe what you like then; just recognize that it is a belief, and nothing more.

You don't seem to understand the meaning of ontological, either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. I guess they made up those planets

the finding of the amino acids... and all other stuff they have found that they were not sure, in fact where positive, could not be there.

Man did not land in the moon either... It was a set, yep, it was a set... in New Mexico I think

Gotcha...

It is not belief... again, it is SCIENCE... the state of the science leads to the conclusion that we will confirm or deny the existence of life off this world, in my lifetime... that IS the state of the science. Hell they are even taking a third look at Mars now, but I am sure you did not realize that either. After all we never landed a thing on Mars...

By the way I am also imagining the GPS system... the ISS and other things them so called scientists and engineers have put up there.

IT IS ALL FAITH I TELL YOU!

By the way, good bye

[provis99]

64. they haven't found any life on those planets.

I would say if anything, that would lower the probability, not raise it.

I did not say the moon landing was a set up.

We have in fact, landed on Mars; I don't know where you got that we haven't.
We haven't found life there, or on any of the other planets in this solar system, either.

I'm not sure what GPS and the ISS have to do with believing in aliens.

People that claim aliens will be found in their lifetime remind me a lot of Christian fundamentalists who claim the world will end in their lifetime. It's an ego thing, I guess.

[JVS]

92. That's what makes this so fun.

It lets us get to see people tell others to ignore that unsubstantiated conjecture over there and listen to this unsubstantiated conjecture over here.

Terrific stuff.

[sudopod]

73. I said the exact same thing about String Theory! nt

[Safetykitten]

47. What would we have that an advanced alien would want? Other than our creamy centers?

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Well depends... ranges from whether they want our planet

for it's resources... to they want to learn about us out of intellectual curiosity... and of course the creamy center...

That is not a book, it is a recipe book.

Alas we have sent probes even to deep space out of curiosity... see Voyager which just now entered deep space and it is still ticking... hey better than my darn washer.

[RKP5637]

77. Yep, I remember that one well! "That is not a book, it is a recipe book." It was a great

episode, as was "Monsters due on maple street."

[Amonester]

74. To boldly go where no advanced alien has gone before...

Or to go boldly where now advanced alien has gone before.

Grammar, grammar!

[anarch]

49. your analogy of the Aztecs meeting the Spaniards is inadequate

Assuming some intelligent creature remotely comparable to life as we know it on Earth is able to visit our planet from some distant point in space, it's more like some hikers visiting some particular ant-hill somewhere in the Mojave desert (wherein we are the ants, if you see what I mean). The Aztecs didn't have much in the way of seafaring technology, but I'm sure they at least understood that things float on water. If anything can travel vast distances through space in any useful amount of time, we don't have even a vague notion of how that would work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. They understood things floating on water better than you understand

after all the city was built on chinanpas




And yes it may not be adequate, but it is the closest historical analogy... that is within the grasp of most people.

If we were to be correct, if anybody can cross those distances and not travel into the future... we are not even talking of an ant and a hiker.. we are talking of humans and bacteria, and we using penicilin oh circa 1944... or rather them using penicilin in 1944... why we may not even know If they do not want contact to be made.

[drokhole]

50. Sovereignty and the UFO

This does a great job of covering the implications:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24388393/Sovereignty-and-the-...

They write a much more condensed version (an essay titled "Militant Agnosticism and the UFO Taboo") in the book "UFOs: Governments, Pilots, and Government Officials Go On the Record" by Leslie Kean:

http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-O...


In a nut shell, it throws all our shit into disarray - it calls into question the state's ability to protect its citizens (due to vastly superior technology of "visitors"), it might create pressure to form a unified world government (threatening the structure of sovereign states), and it above all calls into question the very nature through which man is ruled:

"By this we mean that, in the modern world, political organization everywhere is based on the assumption that only human beings have the ability and authority to govern and determine our collective fate...Significantly, it is on this anthropocentric basis that modern states are able to command exceptional loyalty and resources from their subjects...To whom would people give their loyalty in such a situation, and could states in their present form survive were such a question politically salient?"


If aliens landed tomorrow, I'd imagine you'd having a lot of people assessing not only their, but mankind's, lot in life. People would lose a whole lot of interest in a whole lot of mundane/trivial shit incredibly fast - including working at near any job. Economies and business-as-usual would more than likely grind to a halt, especially if they decided to share their technology with us. Hell, that alone would probably eliminate more than half the jobs on the planet (energy/electronic/transportation sector, at the very least).

If they were malevolent, it's pretty much a resistance is futile/kiss your ass goodbye scenario. If they've mastered intergalactic(dimensional?) travel, our weapons would be as useful as storming Normandy armed with bags of shit. I'd imagine they'd at least be able to simply deflect, absorb, or jam our weaponry. Worst case scenario, they'd have mastered telepathy and could just paralyze our asses on the spot. And EVEN IF we could fight back, where the fuck are we gonna go? We're glued to this rock. They can always leave and/or come back with reinforcements.

This is all rendered moot, of course, if this is the guy that shows up:



In which case, hide your cats...

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Ah yes, ELF...

Thanks for the chuckle, and yes the implications are severe.

Why IF they have come, it would make sense that national leaders would try to hide this new reality from the proles...

As you said, if they are here for conquest....

I have played with that concept, after all science fiction it is quite standard... but I have not given my aliens such an incredible power that they cannot be defeated... (and I gave humans FTL anyway)

But trust me, as I thought these problems... I know I need to deal far more with the first contact from a philosophical point of view. It is not done enough. In my mind it would challenge all human paradigms, including that of god.

[PufPuf23]

55. Posted this to no response in another DU thread today.

Humanity's plagues are Ego and Anthropromorphism

I suspect what is real is infinity to the power infinity.

There is more probability of existing and ongoing occult contact now than "contact of civilizations" of species with arms, leg, and head within 20 years.

Divinity in complexity is all over the place in detail.

Recorded or interpreted archeological human history and the religions of Abraham and other human death or despair cults are less than a speck of dust.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Like your thread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Thanks... and yes I read it there

in fact that inspired this threat to a point.

I know that once we find evidence, with no shadow of any doubt, that there is life out there... forget sentient life, that be a bonus... it will throw our three revealed major religions into some sort of trouble. The Catholic church is trying to get ahead of the curve, but a religion where god created man in his image (genesis I) and placed man above all other creatures of creation, yes genesis I, is not compatible with the idea that there is life beyond this world. IT really is not. Nor should we expect it to be... I mean the seventh century before the common era was not precisely one where the world that was big...

Genesis II (We were created in their images) might provide a way out of that problem...

As is we as a species might be evolving away from those three... but that is another question... finding life OUTSIDE this world will accelerate that process.

I know scientists are very careful, but one reason why the mars fossils are still so controversial... is partly the ontological meaning of this... assuming the evidence is strong regarding this.

Religion I suspect will continue to exist... but the old time religions will enter into some sort of crisis at that point.

[defendandprotect]

63. If you're going to suppose .....

Think you need more basic info --

Like aliens having created human hybrids 375,000 years ago --

And, allegedly the scenario already happened -- perhaps something similar to

how it was shown in "Alien visitation of the third kind" --

Supposedly it was Ike's adminsitration which was involved --


And, correct, if you listen to Bob Dean, we are on the outskirts of the univerese --

and sometime soon to be roped in -- caught up with everyone else.


Why should anyone have "faith" in male-supremacist religion --

if the "Guards of the universe" were heard -- it was misunderstood as "god" -- that's all.

We're starting to figure out that they may use anti-gravity, but evidently a lot more to it

than that. We're interested in weapons -- they seem to be avoiding using them ....

for 375,000 years.


Wasn't there a program on tonight about the aliens being a threat to us?

That's the trend -- more reason for war and armaments -- let's see ... commies, China,

terrorists, aliens?


Seemingly, the 1500 or more every year being abducted since the 1960's or so have made clear

that they have given us long away information on energy -- but it was too inconvenient for

the oil/gas industry -- they didn't like it!


First thought on why they would be here is that this planet had something they needed --

creating life here may have begun as creating a slave race -- which was eventually freed.

How many alien species? At the time of our Apollo/astronauts they were referring to the

"Heinz/87 varieties" -- others say there are more than three hundred known alien species.


Agree -- what you can accept intellectually -- isn't necessarily what you can accept

emotionally!

If our planet is in crisis -- then there may be a bit of truth in myth -- i.e., spaceships

to take people off of the planet? These would be those previously abducted -- allegedly

usually families -- and some say they have been changed genetically to adapt to their

new home base.


Would you want to be one of the abducted and saved -- or would you want to stay no matter

what is going to happen on this planet?


I'd stay -- of course, there is still the question of reincarnation -- something that was

taught by all the world's major religions .... until it became inconvenient for elites!

[Blue_In_AK]

69. Nadin, did you watch The Event?

Fiction, of course, but I thought the series was pretty entertaining.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Nope, I have not watched any network tv for a long time

I am afraid.

I guess I will have to catch it in a repeat, when the Sci Fi channel runs it. Of course I don't watch that much either any longer.

My diet is food channel, some history... science channel and them nooz channels.

[Blue_In_AK]

71. I don't watch a lot of network shows, either,

but I was intrigued by the concept and got sucked in. Unfortunately, I think I read that the show won't be back next season, which is too bad, because the plot was really suspenseful and we were left hanging.

If you get a chance to catch it in syndication, I think you'd enjoy it.

[Duer 157099]

72. I take it as an absolute given that life exists elsewhere in the universe

The amount of ego it takes to believe otherwise is beyond me.

As to why "they" might come here, that's just silly. Look at us, we have been to the moon, and have sent our devices to other planets and far out into the solar system, it's the very nature of a curious species to do that, so it's natural to think other life forms would do likewise.

I never understand the people who think there isn't alien life out there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. For me it is not belief, but rather very solid science

The evidence that we may have life is just there, and getting stronger every day.

NASA and xeno biology makes for fascinating readying,

as to why? Yep, same reason we sent expeditions into the heart of the Amazon to contact primitive cultures. Except that in this case I don't think they are doing that YET. assuming they are here.

[Obamanaut]

82. So solid science posits that it is possible, even probable, and there

is "...evidence that we may have life..." and you 'believe' that the posits and evidence that things "may" - well, that's belief.

[yawnmaster]

83. It is not an absolute given. Based on what? eom

[Duer 157099]

85. To me, it is, and that's what I said.

Based on everything I know.

[yawnmaster]

86. Faith based. eom

[Duer 157099]

87. LOL yeah. You thought I had proof?

Funny how "faith" based is fine for the majority of the population of earth, when it comes to religious beliefs, but for something like this, suddenly it is near delusional.

[yawnmaster]

89. I was hoping you did have some proof. but alas, its Star Trek reruns tonight....

never thought you or others are delusional (or even near) but it really isn't an absolute given, not without some evidence.
One might say it's probable based on some analysis.

[IDemo]

78. A few thoughts

http://www.astro-tom.com/technical_data/alien_life.htm
In scientific circles there's much less concern now than in the past about the value of fl, the fraction of habitable planets on which life evolves. The molecular building blocks of life -- complex organic hydrocarbons and even amino acids -- are abundant in the universe. They have been discovered in meteorites, comets, and interstellar gas and dust. There are vastly more amounts of amino acids in interstellar space than in the Earth's biosphere. Although hydrocarbons and amino acids are not living organisms, there's little doubt that a lot of prebiotic evolution is going on in the dark galactic clouds between the stars.

Where the biochemistry exists, there is little reason to doubt that life will eventually arise given a suitable environment. And where life begins, it only follows that it will evolve into an intelligent form sooner or later. But the question of whether "they" will be inclined to explore the universe or interact with the other denizens relies on many factors, including:

1) Motive - Just what is to be gained by the discovery of other life forms, specifically intelligent ones? For one, it would answer one of the most important questions possible - are we alone? That in and of itself would be earth shaking in its cultural and religious implications. But the "We" here counts, too. Would there be minimum and maximum degrees of advancement acceptable between civilizations before any sense of shared identity could exist?

2) Ability - It may be too easy to simply suggest that a method for traversing wormholes or other means of interstellar travel will develop. The problem may be much, much more difficult than we can imagine, or it may even be impossible. On the other hand, the rather Anthro concept that aliens will pile into a flying saucer, the Intergalactic Minivan, and travel vast light years simply to study Earth and/or Mankind, strains credulity. And the idea that radio would be used to communicate over the same distances isn't much better - "I Love Lucy" has become so-much indecipherable noise by now, long before any chance of aliens enjoying it. Radio loses energy at a square of the distance rate. But more than that, our own technology seems to be replacing broadcast with fiber at a rapid rate. There may be only a narrow window that any advanced civilizations employ broadcast frequencies before moving on to better technologies.

3) Too different - While our science fiction is often fond of depicting aliens as humanoid, the differences in biology or culture may be so fundamental that for them the very idea of interaction with any outside civilization is unthinkable.

4) Hostile? Probably not - There exists an argument which I can't find right now, but it goes something like this: Any sufficiently advanced civilization would realize upon entering the local galactic neighborhood that their new-found capabilities are statistically at the low end of the technological realm. They would be not just at the extreme disadvantage in any war-like encounter, but more like an ant hill against a Predator drone. It would behoove anyone with such an awareness to tread lightly and extend a welcoming hand (tentacle?) rather than raising phasers-on-stun with each new encounter. What's more, everyone would know that everyone else would recognize the rules. The benefits of cooperation would prove to far outnumber those of battle. And those above a certain point on the curve would have no need for such incivility anyway - they would likely be able to attain anything they needed without effort.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Exactly... the math is in our favor at this point

of finding life that is.

I will add MOST of what we find that will qualify as alien... will also be at the bacterial level.

but even that will be an ontological challenge to the centrality and shall we say... uniqueness of Earth and humans.

[DiverDave]

84. If we ARE alone

it would be an awful waste of space.

(with thanks to Carl)

[L. Coyote]

88. Hello, logic dictates that life is a property of matter!

Think about it. Someone should! How can this not be true? "Life is a property of matter."

[yawnmaster]

90. No life, what matter? Without life there is no matter, at least matter that matters. eom

[L. Coyote]

91. Without matter, there is no life!

[yawnmaster]

95. But an alien lifeform may have been able to get around that, being billions of years ahead of us! nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Actually if you really want to get weird

and quantum physics and string theory are... more properly a state of energy.

And if you want to get really philosophical... we are self aware pieces of energy....

(And yes I have been playing with this for a while... readying even civilian versions of QM and String Theory are down right Alice in Wonderland territory)