Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I want to make a statement as a Jew:

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 04:29 PM
Original message
I want to make a statement as a Jew:

To the DU community, of which I have been a proud member for seven years: I am a Jew, born into the Reform (not "Reformed" - there is no such thing) movement but practice Conservative Judaism in part because I enjoy certain rituals and customs from both religious and a cultural standpoints. I am also a Zionist - I am unashamed of that and as I have posted here on several occasions, my father of blessed memory told me that the hardest part of being a Lefty would be the astounding hatred of Israel by many on the Left. He was absolutely correct in that, and many other, regards. I know that before many have finished what I am about to say, they are composing a diatribe against the "evil" Israeli government, or about Bibi, or the "Occupation", or whatever, and I am quite used to this aspect of DU and have learned to live with it.

What I do not particularly care for is the nature of certain threads, such as those which describe the fate of the dog which ostensibly had been sentenced to death by a Rabbinical Court, and the piling on, as it were, of the usual anti Israel (never ever ever anti-Semitic of course, mm-hmm absoLUTEly) statements about the country, the Orthodox, whatever. When of course, the details of the 'story' begin to be fleshed out, it turns out, naturally, that the newspaper had to retract the story, etc. That means that it wasn't (entirely) true.

Now I give great credit to those who voiced questions or concern or even thought that it might be an Onion article. I myself raised a skeptical eyebrow when I read it, because I happen to know something about these people first-hand, that I've known Orthodox Rabbis and their families for most of my life, and although Talmudic and Jewish Law can seem harsh at times, as our laws seem harsh at times, they are most often applied with great discretion and concern for all living things, their lives and their welfare and emotionality.

For example, I don't know how many of you have ever read the translation of the Ketuba, the Jewish marriage contract, but many of you might be really shocked and surprised to know that it almost entirely protects the wife and family from the possible vicissitudes of the husband. It is a very Progressive document as these things go, and secular law has only recently, relatively speaking, incorporated many of the protections into itself. Now of course, it will be time to start furiously penning replies about the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and all, and quite frankly, I would personally prefer if Israel were granted a portion of say, Montana which is uninhabited, and moved there in toto. In 25 years, they'd have it up and running to perfection and then all of a sudden, we'd start hearing about how this is so and so's homeland and that they want it back and who do those Jews think they are anyway? My grandmother's first cousin was Chaim Weitzman, and family lore tells us that he knew this would happen again, but that Madagascar was surrounded by water and Uganda was not necessarily the most benign place for people to settle, but the past was prologue and here we are.

So I suppose what made me type this thread was that the infusion of glee clearly given an avenue when the dog thread was posted disturbed me again. If people want to equate that action, which apparently did not take place, with the beheading of women or the stoning of individuals for petty crimes or actions which here in the USA would simply be preferences for association or sexuality, then you just go right ahead if it makes you feel better. I for one, will continue to shake my head in disbelief that a Progressive community will passively endorse such horrors - one rarely sees threads with more than 10 replies when these events occur in other countries, but jump on the bandwagon quickly when they see an opening, or what they perceive as an opening against the State, the Sovereign State, of Israel.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. I avoided that thread like the plague
Edited on Sat Jun-18-11 04:44 PM by Warpy
but did some further reading and discovered this wasn't a fundy type stoning to death, it was hiring kids to slide rocks off the dog's tail until he got discouraged and went off to raid garbage cans and do other doggy things instead of harassing the court.

Back in the bad old days before leash laws, I have been known to keep a few rocks in my pocket to deter Fluffy-who-wouldn't-hurt-a-fly, myself.

Here, we'd just call animal control, something that would likely result in a belligerent stray's early death. There, they're just trying to discourage it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, exactly. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
66. slide rocks off the dog's tail
How does one do that, exactly?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. One aims very carefully
It helps if you grew up skipping stones off a pond surface.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. I missed the dog story. And I'm going to skip going into an
actual response and offer to you, PC, a book recommendation. This is a novel, by the very great Michael Chabon, called 'The Yiddish Policeman's Union' and it is set in a world in which the War of Independence in Israel went the other way, and a temporary place is made in Sitka, Alaska for the refugees that had to flee. The Montana concept, done full. Words from Yiddish, English, and also 'Sitka Yiddish' which does not actually exist of course. A remarkable book. Chabon wrote 'The Wonder Boys' which some know from the film with Michael Douglass, and also another of my favorites, The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay, a stoy of comic books and gollums and NYC.
Seriously a great writer. Yiddish Policeman's Union is a great read. A book I bet you would love, odd as it is. And thus ends my spiel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
connecticut yankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Archaic, primitive religions
have much in common.

Personally, I think all traditional religions are archaic and primitive. And I don't believe I'm alone in saying that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. I hear you, PC.
Maybe DUers jump on the bandwagon, as you say, because they/we expect MORE of us; I don't complain about that, in fact, I also expect more of us, every day, in every way.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. I am not Jewish, but I have Jewish granddaughters.
Last weekend I was at the celebration of my middle granddaughter's bat mitzvah and once again, as I did for her older sister, heard a service, both on Friday night and the Saturday service, the words and music of Judaism. Not once did I hear hatred of anybody. I heard about God's love, about our desire for peace, about justice, about a "sacred community". I cried through half of the service...

I am sure these services are conducted in cities all over the country and yet to hear some of the voices here I feel that Judaism is unknown, a foreign place of mind that is not at home with the rest of us. I don't want to feel that here. I wish we had a better place for Judaism here.

Am I being naive?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. you made a wonderful post
very few who post here understand the depth and breadth. That is not hyperbole, that is fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I feel a sadness...don't you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Yes...beyond sad...
wistful and depressed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
here_is_to_hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. lmao... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
90. lol to your lmao. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Very nice post, thank you for sharing that with us.
:grouphug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
strawberryfield Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. I am the least religious person I know
I have absolutely no opinion about religion. I am not an atheist because that involves having an opinion. As long as nobody tries to interfere with my life, I really don't care what they believe. They can think I am going to hell because I don't share their belief, and that is absolutely OK with me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think the funniest thread title I ever saw on DU was
"How do Atheists think about God?"

You can't make this stuff up.

Seems to me that the mixing of formal religion with state policies is where the trouble starts, and we have people in this country who want to do exactly that in the US.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
86. Yet you both opened and replied to this thread.
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Happyhippychick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. Fellow member of the tribe giving you support. I wish I could block the entire Middle East forum
because it makes me feel very unwelcome here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yes. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Why does the I/P forum make you feel unwelcome at DU?
I don't really understand that. I don't post much there anymore and wish I/P discussions were allowed to happen in the big forums alongside other topics that get heated, but if I feel unwelcome in that one forum, that doesn't make me feel like I'm unwelcome at DU....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Gee, I don't mind taking a crack at that question:
"Perhaps" it is because of all the self-righteous condemnation of Israel and its leaders, whomever they may be at a given moment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thanks. I've got some more questions stemming from yr answer....
Edited on Sat Jun-18-11 07:15 PM by Violet_Crumble
What's the difference between 'self-righteous condemnation' and legitimate criticism? Could you give an example of each so I've got some idea of where the line is for you?
Also, depending on how you answer that first question, do you apply the same standards when it comes to criticism vs condemnation to the Palestinians?

on edit - Sorry, I just thought of something. I've seen lots of criticism/'self-righteous indignation' of some governments, including the US govt, here at DU. I'm not understanding why criticism/'self-righteous indignation' of any govt would make you feel unwelcome at DU, especially if it's of a govt that's doing something wrong, and it's not even yr own govt? I've seen some criticism/'self-righteous indignation' aimed at the Australian govt at times, and that's my own country's govt, but that doesn't make me feel unwelcome at DU. If someone has something wrong, I correct them, but I've actually agreed with some of the harshest critics, which usually are other Australians. I've noticed the same when it comes to Israel. Some of the harshest critics of its government are Israelis...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No... I'm not going to be a co-conspirator...
if you want to hijack the thread you'll have to do it without my assistance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I'm not the one who brought up the I/P forum. You and another poster did...
Instead of accusing me of replying to something you yrself had already responded to (post #10), I would have liked you to explain what the difference is between legitimate criticism and 'self-righteous indignation'. In the absense of an answer, it's looking very much as though they're one and the same thing, in which case it's absolutely ridiculous to feel unwelcome at DU because people criticise the Israeli govt...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
87. Oh boy....
:popcorn:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
51. vapid response
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Condemn Israel for killing Palestinian children? Yes we will.
Sorry that bugs you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zoigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. i have never once heard a negative statement about any religion or other ethnic group
all the times i have attended Jewish services including
Friday night sabbath, the High Holy Days, etc. However, i have
encountered many anti Semitic remarks from the general public
including "No Jews Allowed" signs, "Gentiles Only" (on beaches)
and others. Basically in the St. Louis area where i grew up....z
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. At the Passover seder, Jews traditionally, and that means
for thousands of years, have a ritual diminishing of the wine cups by all to signify the sadness which we feel even in the destruction of our enemies, in that case, the Egyptian army, because we are all God's children and any loss of life diminishes our lives.

We respect all people of all faiths and never ever attempt to convert anyone to our faith...it just isn't done unless the person himself or herself wishes to do so of entirely their own volition.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. When did you encounter these statements in St. Louis?
I lived there for many years and never saw such a thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zoigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. I am eighty two years old...ran into it a lot during high school (Southwest) and college (Washingon
UNIVERSITY). This was long before civil rights laws, etc so
probably things changed a bit.....Glad you didn't encounter it......z
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. I'm sorry you experienced things like that back then....
Sometimes it's hard to believe things like that used to be commonplace not all that long ago. My grandmother used to tell me about how women weren't allowed into a lot of places either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
here_is_to_hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. And your point is what?
Because I dont see it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
67. zoigal
"They should wipe every Arab off the face of the earth." - Meir Kahane
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zoigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
83. Hey, trud...i was referring to the religious services that i attended, not to remarks
of individuals. Unfortunately there are radicals in all societies. Personally, i hope that the Palestinian situation gets resolved
by them having their own state. And have nothing but respect for ALL other ethnic
groups (unless they are terrorists, etc)....z
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. As a fellow Jew....
...this was an excellent OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Sorry,. it was a deeply flawed OP....
Two themes appear to be coming through in it, one related to religion and the other to politics...

1. The religion theme seemed to be that unlike other major religions, there's no extremism or mistreatment of women. If anyone's to post anything about that sort of thing and it's about Judaism and not another major religion, then it's all so very disturbing and clearly the person doing so is an antisemite. Not being a fan of religion, I'll call bullshit on attempts to paint any major religion as wonderfully benign and better than the others. They all have their fair share of misogyny, intolerance and violent extremists...

2. There's an attempt to say that the OP would be happy if Israel were to be moved somewhere empty like part of Montana, and then tries to draw a parallel with where Israel is now by claiming that in a few years someone would appear out of nowhere and claim it's their homeland. To try to make out that's what happened is totally incorrect. The Palestinians didn't just appear out of nowhere claiming it was their homeland. Around 750,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from what's now Israel when Israel was created. They exist, and imo have far more right to call it their homeland than some American who's never been to that region and has no family ties there. Also, criticism of Israel's occupation isn't 'anti-Israel', no more than criticising the Bush administration was 'anti-US'...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
75. Don't know how to reply to that ? do you now ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. DUZY!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
62. Good post
Any religion that claims to have the higher ground isn't a religion worth protecting from my view.

A religion stands on its own merits, and not on pointing out the flaws of others.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
76. jumped at me right away ! Bravo for pointing it out !
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #34
89. thank you
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'm not Jewish, nor is any of my family, just fyi.
The situation in Israel is not cut and dried. I did not know of the history of the area until I saw a story of the history of the conflict on PBS. It explained many things that I had been wondering about, like having to serve in the Israeli army. Not until I saw the program did I realize that Israel is surrounded by countries that have absolute hatred for the Jews, and always have had. And, if we believe that Christianity is true, then the Jews have 'owned' Israel for at least 2000 years, because Jesus was a Jew.

I have no idea who is right or wrong in this battle, and I refuse to take sides. There have been bad acts from both Jew and Palestinian, neither are innocent. But, it is also true that Palestinians have places they can move to, and be welcomed with open arms, right across the border. They could sell their land for a very large sum and start a new life. The Jewish people do not have the same situation, they cannot move across the border, because they would not be welcomed. I honestly don't know what the big deal is.

zalinda
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. What was the name of that PBS thing you saw? It sounds like it was peddling some nonsense...
I'm not sure how you can post what you did and say in the same breath yr refusing to take sides. It's very clear you are taking a side....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. I think it was the 6 day war
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/hijacked/peopleevents/e_war.html may be part of it. It was a few years ago.

I'm not taking sides, only commenting on common sense. The Palestinians say that the Israelis are taking their land, and have been made uncomfortable living in Israel. I know if I had conflict like this, I would not hesitate to move, if at all possible. I don't believe that the land you were born on is sacred, it is just a piece of dirt. The Jewish people would have a more difficult time in moving, so it just makes more sense for the Palestinians to move. Some even have relatives in other countries, which would welcome them, and help get them started.

I really don't understand the attachment to dirt. I just want everyone to stop fighting. I tend to flee to avoid conflict if at all possible.

zalinda
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Maybe yr interpretation of it might not be giving it justice...
Edited on Sun Jun-19-11 05:09 AM by Violet_Crumble
It's just that there's things in yr post that were troublesome and very inaccurate, not least the claim that all the Arab countries hate Jews. Apart from the obvious fact that two neighbouring Arab countries have peace treaties with Israel, and many of the others have offered a normalisation of relations in return for an end to the occupation, that sort of claim is painting Arabs as a mass of seething antisemites. This appears to be a popular thing amongst some Americans where Arab has become the new Commie. I just think generalisations about entire groups of people are wrong and in this case very incorrect...

The West Bank isn't part of Israel, and it's not necessary for Palestinians to move, no more than East Timorese should have left when Indonesia invaded and occupied East Timor. The only people who need to move are the Israeli settlers, and they need to go back to Israel...

on edit - if yr interested in learning more about the conflict, a really good book to start with is 'The Iron Wall' by Avi Shlaim. It's one of the best books on the topic I've ever read...

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
78. first mistake
"believing Christianity is true"..

second mistake, not knowing the entire history of the region.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
91. Egypt and Jordan don't want a thing to do with Gaza and the West Bank respectively
Nor with the people that live there, for that matter. The idea that they can move across the border is ridiculous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. I'm sorry you had to see that ugly nonsense here
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. It's all right....
they're everywhere where good and reasonable people also are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. I'm not Jewish, but I've found a number of Jewish religious texts extraordinarily insightful
It is not my religion, so I really cannot speak about the theology -- but in my experience, Judaism has given the world a towering humanizing tradition
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. My Jewish neighbor practices what most Christians claim
they stand for. He contributes both money and volunteer time to various charities and foundations. As a doctor, he gives free care to those who can't pay. I don't know many Christians who practice the Golden Rule like he does.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
41. If it had been a muslim, arab or african country
people would have made negative comments. Israel does not and should get a pass. Other countries and religions don't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
War Horse Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
43. Well, I'm a Zionist too
In the broadest sense, in that I support a sovereign Jewish national homeland.

That doesn't stop me from being both symphathetic to and at the same time very critical of Israel. For me, the latter doesn't in any way reflect anything negative about the Jewish faith... Although I know very well that it may be interpreted that way at times, sadly.

If someone ever finds a forum where one can discuss the I/P issue without things heating up unnecessarily, please let me know... :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
44. FYI
Full disclosure: There is a lot about the Jewish religion and majority of Jewish people I admire. I am positive there are many good people in Israel but they are not represented by their government I educated myself about the founding of Israel, a controversial thing that got a lot of countries off the hook for the treatment of the refugees. My oldest son's middle name was David for David Ben Gurion . I have agonized over Israel, America's relationship to it but with the genocide of Palestine I came to the conclusion that I hate the government of Israel. I no longer support them in any way and say that the grand experiment was a failure as they have turned into the monsters who persecuted them.

I resent AIRPAC having any influence in OUR government. I hate the fact that people who do not agree with the one super moderated Israeli/Palestine rules are forced to use them by having their threads hijacked when no other discussions except the one they added to make somewhat similar simply to Israel/Palestine look less extreme exists on DU. That is just plain wrong.

So if that Zionism is what you blindly are for then I regrettably I guess I do hate you for that too but I do not hate your religion, nor your humanity and I resent anyone who accuses me of that making the division worse. The sympathy that got Israel started has been used up. Instead of a shining star it is a vicious, warmongering bully. You do not have to be Zionist to be Jewish. Israel has lost a lot of allies. Isn't it time to reassess what you will tolerate, give up for a statehood dream when such a dream destroys people?

PS. I do watch Israeli movies and like most ideals your marriage contract is just as quaint to a lot of men in Israel as the Constitution is to the GOP and nobody does anything about either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Seedersandleechers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
45. Thank you for your thread...
I don't read any threads that have Israel in the subject for reasons you mentioned. I guess you could call me an Israeli sympathizer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
46. I do not understand the intolerance for the Jewish religion.
But it is very much a part of the history of the Protestant and Catholic churches in Europe. It is just a reaction that people have when they don't understand the customs and beliefs of others. Hard to put up with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
48. So what do you think should happen to the Palestinians?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
55. When I was a youngster, I was brought up in NYC, and there were
a lot of Holocaust survivors in my neighborhood. I had many Jewish friends, one who's father was a Rabbi. He was a wise man full of insights, religious and secular. One day, i was feeling a little "down" and he picked up on it; gently, he asked me what was wrong, I answered that I had a "problem". He sat down, elbows on the table and asked me, "is this problem threatening your life at this moment?" I answered "no"; and he said I had a "situation". There was time to work out a viable option...a "problem" he explained was if I was about to die...everything else could be worked out. I learned a lot that day, especially about wisdom and how we can use it.

I do not profess to understand Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism or another religion or philosophy to any great extent, but I do understand that far too many people who "know" really don't have a clue, but there are gems that can be gleaned from each...look for the good things, the love, the empathy, the compassion, the brother/sisterhood...the good things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
56. I'm Jewish, tho not a Zionist. I grew up Conservative with a
wonderful, wonderful Rabbi. I miss him.

There are many groups of Orthodox Jews. Some appear to have more respect for women than others.

I'm a home health nurse. Years ago I had a patient who was an an elderly rabbi. He was Orthodox and a Holocaust survivor. He tried to get me to learn more Hebrew and become more involved in the community. He was a very sweet man.

He told me that women were smarter than men. (I wish I had the guts to ask him "then why can't we be Orthodox rabbis?" )
He was a Holocaust survivor whose family was murdered in Europe. He chose a wife here in this country. The wife he chose was smarter than him. But, not quite as wise. When he was dying he had students at his bedside to learn from him. I was really fortunate to get to know him a little.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
57. Try being Catholic here
feel the hate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #57
85. A person being Catholic here is no problem.
A person trying to convince the rest of us that becoming Catholic (or any other didactic religion) would be a Wonderful Thing -- now that's a problem here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
58. Glad you stuck around.
Edited on Sun Jun-19-11 08:35 AM by harun
No picnic being a Muslim here either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I'm sure of that! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
60. "It's clear there are hard feelings about discussion of XYZ issues on DU."
Skinner posted that big blowout thread the other day. The fact is that he could have posted it about lots of topics.

Religion, Israel, Christianity, Circumcisions, Pit Bulls, Smokers, and on and on and on.

The reason is that there's plenty of disagreement and hard feelings on DU about lots of topics. This doesn't mean Skinner was wrong to post that. I think he's doing his best to move this place forward. But there are lots of people on DU that can make a legitimate claim that they've been wronged.

The Israel issue on DU has a high level of craziness around it. I've never seen a bigger brawl at DU than when the Israel-Lebanon fight broke out. This place was INSANE! The amount of fights and bannings were nuts, because a lot of people couldn't control their inner anti-semite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chorophyll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
61. ...
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
63. Very well said and unfortunately too true. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
64. Okay, good post. Appreciate the honesty. But the idea that Israel is "well run"
Edited on Sun Jun-19-11 09:01 AM by mistertrickster
(as in we'd have our Montana wilderness home up and "running to perfection") is western myth.

That a bunch of Europeans can resettle to a land dominated by foreign powers (Alexander the Great, the Romans, the Ottoman, the British, etc) and do it better than the locals is not that surprising.

But making the desert flower? Hardly.

Communal farms work great if gov't funds them 100 percent . . .

*****

As for this observation: "one rarely sees threads with more than 10 replies when these events occur in other countries, but jump on the bandwagon quickly when they see an opening, or what they perceive as an opening against the State, the Sovereign State, of Israel."

I think the reason the Left is more critical of Israel than say Iran is that the US gov't (which is supposed to represent us) has unwaveringly supported Israel, right or wrong. The billion dollar subsidies are case in point.

We can't do much about the Saudis decapitating a women on a trumped-up adultery charge.

But we hold the Israelis to a higher standard because they claim a higher standard, and they ask us to support them because of that higher standard.

It was US Caterpillar bulldozers that crushed American Rachel Corrie to death as she attempted to protect Palestinians' homes.

Justify that.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
65. dog
Do post a link to where Yediot Aharonot retracted the story about the order to stone the dog, because I see that nowhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #65
72. Here:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
68. religion..
what is it good for again?

Oh yeah, so when a human dies their "loved ones" can think they are somehow still "with us" and "looking down on us" and "in a better place". Oh, and to push your worldview and justify war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
70. there seems to be strong emotions here over ALL religious dogma
not sure any religion gets much preference over another..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
71. There is no truth in "revealed truth" and "birth rights" are bogus.
If I had my way, I'd turn the whole area into
a wildlife sanctuary and kick EVERYONE OUT.


I sympathized with both sides, and agree with neither.

When my kids fought over a ball, the best
and fastest way was to just take the ball away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Yes and so neither the Native Americans nor you can live on the land n/t
Edited on Sun Jun-19-11 10:58 AM by PCIntern
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. ?
Please repeat in a way that makes sense or
applies in ANY WAY to my post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
77. bullshit
From what I remember, most of the responders just don't like RELIGION of any stripe.

I don't care whether you're Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, Episcopalean, Lutheran or Satanist.

The belief in magical beings and the insane fundamentalist adherence to a bunch of made up "rules" designed to control others is what most of the posters in the dog thread were on about.

It didn't have one - if you'll pardon the expression - goddamn thing to do with being "Jewish" (the race) - OR Israel - the country.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nomb Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
79. Ketuba Progessive??? Not while it creates Agunah. Long Live Israel, but don't pretend its liberal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Given the year in which it wa written...
since Chomsky wasn't around to write one, this would have to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nomb Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. I see your point on that, given its age. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowwood Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
82. Refreshing
It's refreshing to have a thread remain on "general discussion" and not be moved to I/P.
American foreign policy is too much shaped by oversensitive concerns regarding Israel.
There are genuine concerns about our ties with a very right-wing administration in Israel. They should be able to be discussed on an open foreign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
84. When I saw that thread, I looked up the original article on ynet.co.il
and read it in ivrit. For one thing, we are talking about mea shareim - which if you have been there, you know how that community lives. They have been known to throw stones at people who mistakenly wander into that block who aren't dressed appropriately. For another thing, they were not talking about "stoning" a dog, they were talking about throwing stones at it to run it off. Something got gravely lost in the translation. Not that I condone it at all. Mea shareim people make me nuts. This is no small exception as a monthly donor to the ASPCA and local Humane Society. It sickens me that they would even go there, but it doesn't surprise me. Look how they treat people on public busses. Heaven forbid a woman sit in a front-of-center-row. But I digress.

I agree with everything you have written here. It is very rare that I jump into the fray on the I/P threads, but when I do, it is typically a drive-by setting facts straight as the complete distortion is sometimes mind boggling.

Just know you aren't alone, Doctor.

Happy Father's Day to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Not much different from using a shotgun to scare the coons out of the trash cans.
If it happened in the Bible Belt (or anywhere else in the US), FOX would probably add that it was a RABID raccoon, just because that's what they do. The media just has to spin everything to fit their political views, and unfortunately for a lot of people that's where their religious views fall.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
92. Very well said. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC