I am convinced Progressives want to fail

[Taverner]

We want to lose

When one of the most progressive voices makes a mistake, albeit a stupid mistake, we turn on our own

Cannibals, fucking cannibals

The only logical reason is that we must really like losing

It must make us giggle in glee when a progressive, who's fought the good fight, gets thrown under the bus

Is it because so many progressives think that progressive policy will doom us? Is it that voice of your abusive father telling you guys that progressives are weak? Is that same voice telling you not to be a "victim"?

That was my dad - he was a Republican simply because he said he "did not want to be a victim"


Yet he'd crow all day about how the evil government was victimizing Christians.



Or is it that complaining is better than leading?

Sure, it's easier. Leading takes work. You have to make tough decisions. You often get faced with a bad option and a worse option.

But complaining is like spending the day jerking off. Sure, it's fun, but at the end of the day you just end up having accomplished nothing. And you have carpal tunnel syndrome. But I digress.



Is it that we're so surprised to see a successful progressive, that we think 'there must be a catch?'

Or is it something else?

I'm missing something here.

[L0oniX]

1. Cannibals are people too. You are what you eat.

:evilgrin:

[Taverner]

2. Hairless Goat or Long Pig

Take your choice

[TheKentuckian]

3. Turd Wayers and hand wringing nanny staters are progressive?

[Youth Uprising]

5. + 1

[Youth Uprising]

4. Those people aren't progressives and Anthony Weiner isn't one

either.

[Taverner]

6. Really....

Care to, um, elaborate on that?

[Youth Uprising]

9. This post says it better than I could:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x685220

I'll just add that zionism is incompatible with progressivism, imo.

[RZM]

12. Yeah but he represents Brooklyn

If you shit on Israel, you're probably not going far in Democratic circles there. Same reason you won't go far dissing the corn lobby in Iowa, potatoes in Idaho, or gaming in Las Vegas. His constituents support Israel and he's in Congress to represent them.

[Taverner]

21. AIPAC needs to visit Gaza and the West Bank someday

And see what their policies are really doing

[RZM]

24. I think people know what life there is like

Knowing that life is shitty in the Palestinian territories doesn't preclude one from supporting the existence of a state with a Jewish character. I'm fully aware of it and I still support Israel's right to exist as it is. I just wish they would lay off the Palestinian territories for a second and withdraw some settlements so we can get the two state thing moving.

It's not an uncommon position for American Democrats who support Israel.

[Taverner]

25. Whether Israel is a Jewish state or not is not the question

It is what the IDF does to Palestine, which should be treated as a neighbor, not a part of Israel proper

[RZM]

34. It is the question

Go on EI and tell me what they think about the two state solution.

That's the whole point of the Apartheid/S. Africa references with this issue. It's a clever way of channeling a consensus precedent that just happens to keep the whole thing in a one state context. The two state solution is a Western thing. Much of the rest of the world wants to replace Israel, not leave it alone.

Believe me, I'm with you on the IDF treatment of people in the Palestinian territories. They need to knock it the fuck off. But don't think for a second that there aren't hundreds of millions of people around the world who don't think that Israel has the right to exist as a state with a Jewish character.

[Taverner]

37. Thing is, if there ever is going to be peace, there needs to be a two state solution

One state will just reinforce tyranny of the majority

The settlements need to be closed like the Gaza settlements were

I know its a lot of people - fuck em

But at the same time, Hamas needs to change like the ANC did...and accept the Jewish State's Existence

[RZM]

38. Looks like we are in agreement

I concur wholeheartedly. Nothing against the settlers personally, but they need to be booted out by the IDF with brute force. Massive land grants in the West Bank; so much so that the Israeli right shits their pants and blocks the Knesset doorway. It's not going to be pretty, but that's what it's going to take.

But in the end, even that is still a two state deal and there are legions who don't believe in it, including most Palestinians. They are just going to have to deal with it. This is the whole problem here - the only viable solution is anathema to both sides, which is why it never goes anywhere.

[Taverner]

42. When they cleared the Gaza settlements, they gave the settlers a good deal of money

Since there are more settlements in the West Bank, it will cost more. But can you put a price on peace?

And I do know for a fact that if there really were a two state solution on the agreed borders with no settlements, Hamas and Fatah would shrivel up like severed appendages

[noeasyway]

22. that's not progressive

if you want to be progressive, be progressive

[RZM]

26. So what?

It's Brooklyn. Have you ever been there? There are a lot of people in his district who support Israel. Their rep should do the same thing. If he doesn't, they will find somebody else who will and they are well within their rights to do so.

[Taverner]

27. So was Kucinich not a progressive because he was Anti-Choice all those years?

[Taverner]

51. All Zionism means is that the State of Israel has a right to exist

If you think they don't, then that's not very progressive either

[provis99]

30. Weiner doesn't make the progressive litmus test.

If you're a progressive in the Democratic House delegation, you are in the Congressional Progressive Caucus. If you are not in, you are not a progressive. Anthony Weiner was not in the Progressive Caucus. It's that simple.

[hack89]

44. So if I don't oppose Zionism, I am not a progressive? Really? nt

[Newest Reality]

7. I can't agree with a broad-brush

perspective like that.

Are we in a progressive society? Are we in an open culture or one that is the process of closing?

I think it is vital that we continue to talk, discuss, learn, complain, etc. The action part is not easy in times like these. That could be because the nature of the beast requires monumental, concerted action, not just individualistic ideals and small groups pushing against the big toe of that Vampire Goliath, the MIC.

Self-hatred and apologetic screeds might be counter-productive, even if they are meant to challenge our resolve and ability to act on this extremely messed-up, corporately dominated scenario.

First, we might really want to step outside The Simulation of media and politics and, together, grasp just what kind of system we are trying to cope and deal with and what place progressives have in number, scope and political and financial influence lest we conflate ego and bravado with a realistic assessment of our situation.

[Skidmore]

8. What are you talking about? Who is this "successful progressive"

you speak of?

[scheming daemons]

10. Which is why they're doing their best to oust the most progressive President in 30 years

Just like they did the last one, Jimmy Carter.

[Taverner]

20. Exactly. And yes, Obama IS the most progressive President in 30 years

[whatchamacallit]

32. This progressive says

Warmongering, corporate shills oust themselves. :)

[xphile]

48. Obama is not a progressive.

He might not be as far right as others but a progressive he is not.

[RZM]

11. It's not complicated

Few people of any political stripe give a shit that Weiner sexted women. Not a great thing to do, but not a hanging offense. Progressives are offended because he lied for a week about it. They trusted him and took him at his word, but then he went back on his word. They aren't offended because they are progressives, they are offended because they don't like being misled by people they trust, which is a natural human reaction.

Kapiche?

[Skidmore]

13. Oh, I see. This is another damned Weiner thread.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It would be refreshing if more of us saw more than one person at a time as capable of contributing to the effort.

[Fumesucker]

23. Your explanation would make more sense if those who want to ditch Wiener..

Weren't very often the same people who twist and turn to follow Obama's every 180 degree flip flop.

I have my own issues with Wiener, lying about personal behavior that's none of my business is not one of those issues.

[RZM]

31. The Obama folks can fight their own battles

I've never been all that enthusiastic about the guy and I voted against him in primaries solely because I disliked the Obama 'phenomenon,' which I felt was empty identity politics and wishful thinking. If they are less than kosher on Weiner (no pun intended), then that's their problem.

I think Weiner failed to heed the lessons of Scandal 101, which are: Don't make the fucking cover-up worse than the goddamn scandal itself. If you can't understand such a basic lesson, which has been demonstrated a million times, you probably don't deserve to be in the House.

[BeFree]

29. Kapiche

But so what? Why crucify him for this minor error?
Are not progressives supposed to be tolerant and forgiving?

The venom on this board flat stinks.
Maybe some are just using this situation to project upon the world their own faults?

[RZM]

33. LOL

DU is far from 'tolerant and forgiving.' And lying for a week is not a 'minor error.' Maybe it is if you do it well, but Weiner did not.

Weiner should have taken a page from the Big Dawg and parsed the shit until it was nothing. But he's no political genius, apparently.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Don't blame the libs.

We live in a country in which the election system is perfectly designed to keep corporations and the wealthy in control of the government.

Until the election system is changed, nothing will be accomplished.

[TheKentuckian]

16. Absurd solution since it depends on the crooks to decide to police themselves

and tell their owners to sit and spin.

You are correct, of course, but if we could get them to remotely consider such a thing then at least half of our massive problems would be fixed before they got around to breaking the ties with big money.
The argument has a circular flavor to it, I think we'll have to make some serious changes to get to your accurate answer.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

40. What is your solution?

?

[TheKentuckian]

43. I wish I knew, how I wish I knew.

I do know that the people with the power are more opposed to serious campaign finance reform than they are to ending DOMA or instituting Single Payer.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. See? Solutions to this situation are not easy. The wolves are in the henhouse.

I don't know either. :(

[Raine]

15. another Weiner thread

just when I thought it was going to be a weiner free day for a change. :yoiks:

[Taverner]

19. It is and it isn't - I'm also barking about the under-the-bus treatment of Spitzer

And I think Tweety's tirade was uncalled for

[Raine]

39. Tweety's got a real thing about Spitzer, he seems

to really resent that CNN hired him. I think he's jealous, he's been carrying on and making digs all week about Spitzer being on CNN. X(

[iemitsu]

17. governments love what is called a "noble failure".

philanthropists love them too. they are programs and ideas, ostensibly to improve conditions, which are actually designed to fail and then ultimately reinforce the status-quo.
it is the basic underlying model used by the IMF and the World Bank when deciding which countries to loan money too.

[noeasyway]

18. If you want be progressive

be progressive

[BeFree]

28. The Guy May Be President Someday

Two weeks ago mentioning his name made some flinch.
Today his name is on the tip of our tongues (no pun).

He's never been more famous and name recognition has never been higher.

This could be nothing more than a great PR campaign.

[mmonk]

35. There aren't enough progressives (in the historical sense of progressive).

We have zero political power.

[DonCoquixote]

36. K and R

This expresses what i have felt, especially when, even though I am to the left of Obama on many things, I get called a DINO.

[Bandit]

41. Do we have any values at all?....Where do you draw the line?

What if one of our own committed murder? Should we just shrug it off? Is there anything you feel Liberals can't do? As a Liberal I despise deliberate stupidity. I don't suffer fools whether Liberal or Conservative...

[krabigirl]

50. We do commit murder..war is pretty bad. Apparently not as bad as tweeting penises, but whatever.

[BOG PERSON]

45. it's not really the fault of progressives if they fail

because, you see, progress is impossible. history is cyclical, a sequence of æternal returns.

[devilgrrl]

46. I'm convinced that there's no difference between parties.

eom

[xphile]

47. You assume that these people are Progressive. I don't think that's

an accurate assumption. Why would progressives push someone under the bus and deliberately cripple their own caucus?

[krabigirl]

49. The people calling for his head were not progressives.

I would say most were corporate democrats and right-wing moderates, which is pretty much the democratic party nowadays.

I wasn't even a fan of wieners record 100%...he was too gung ho on the wars and the war on drugs for my liking, but still...the fact that democrats were freaking out about this while simultaneously not giving a crap about the two new wars we recently started as well as everything else? That really made me sick.

[1monster]

53. Progressives are wimps anyway. I'm a liberal and not ashamed of it because Reagan and those

who came after tried to change the meaning.

Take back your word folks and show you've go chutzpa conviction.

[GeorgeGist]

54. Ahem ...

you mistake yourself for a progressive.

[yawnmaster]

55. you are right, complaining is eaiser than leading, eom

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

56. Tavener, it wasn't the progessives that turned on Weiner.