What's you view on "Wet Houses?"

[Stinky The Clown]

I have many more links I googled up, but here's one to a story I saw yesterday on teevee.

I think the opening paragraph says it all in terms of what these places are.

Major news wires recently began carrying a story about a “wet house” in St. Paul, Minn. A wet house is a facility where alcoholics, many of which are homeless, can go to live but continue to drink on the theory that it is better for them and society at large if they can at least stay safe. More cities are beginning to have similar facilities.

http://www.newsytype.com/5928-wet-house-centers/

[pnwmom]

1. I think that for alcoholics in the end stages, it's a compassionate solution.

And better than forcing them to live on the streets.

[Archae]

2. If they are that hopeless, let them.

I've seen too many alcoholics ruin just about everyone in their family, if that family tries to help.

There are going to be those who fail at rehab, and/or reject any.
At least give them a place where they can live the rest of thier miserable lives.

[underpants]

3. My brother is a recovering alcoholic

alcoholics need to stop drinking. That is it.

This sounds like people soaking drunks for cash.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Not all alcoholics agree with you.

Many have no intention of stopping. These residences provide an alternative to the street or prison for those who, unlike your brother, are not 'recovering'.

The st. paul center is run by Catholic Charities, not generally considered an operation that soaks anyone for anything. The Seattle facility is run by the city of Seattle, at a cost of around 1,000,000/yr, for which the city calculates they save 4,000,000/yr in costs associated with managing street alcoholics through the criminal justice system.

[NYC_SKP]

16. The economics of it doesn't surprise me, one factor in favor of doing this.

It costs less to treat them well, not addressing these people costs more in the long run.

Still, I would want to see an environment that encourages sobriety and which doesn't, by lack of encouragement to stop, condone self-destructive behaviors.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. they encourage sobriety

at least the one in st paul does. What they don't do is mandate it. It is compassionate non-judgmental care. You are encouraged to get sober but allowed to continue drinking, within rules, if you won't.

[NYC_SKP]

24. This sounds like the best way...

...mandates would be counterproductive for most. The very fear of losing the roof over your head would set up a relapse dynamic for people who tried.

Just be gentle and encourage sanity, I say.

:thumbsup:

[underpants]

18. I do understand that but this is just extending the inevitable

which is rock bottom. They are all headed there and making it a more comfy ride doesn't really help anyone.

Just my opinion. I do wish that something like that was available to my brother (and my family) at the time.

[haele]

20. Most of them are already at rock bottom and are just waiting to die -

I don't see how keeping them out of the gutters for the last few years of their unrelenting, miserable lives that they've been self-medicating themselves through would be not help anyone.
Last night I was chatting with a alcoholic ex-felon MBA who was in rehab and "paying" his way through rehab by getting signatures for libertarian petitions.
He was about 40-45 years old, had been a CFO of a small business before he got busted, looked close to 70, and was hoping to make some sort of living as a blogging videographer because no one, and I mean no one, would ever again hire an ex-felon who was drying out. He might or might not get his new start; he was obviously pretty damn desperate when he was talking to me because apparently every time he tried to do that could get him off the street and out of the halfway houses, as soon as they found out he had 1) no regular job, or 2) was in recovery, and 3) had been in jail, the doors would eventually shut.
No small business loans. No employment assistance other than for day labor, which wouldn't pay even pay for rent.
He had failed, and in today's society, failure is a character flaw. He knew he had become a disposable person - and there was a desperate depression around him that, unless he could get a handle on it, would be off-putting enough to a potential employer or assistance program that he runs the risk that this was as far as he would get -
That he would always figuratively be standing by the door to the stairway off the streets, but he would never again have a key and no one would be willing to do more than crack the door open enough to look at him, then close it again.
The risk to return to drink and kill the pain of being "a failure" was strong in him; I saw it quite a bit amongst the long term lower enlisted when I was in the military.
I wished him the best, and hope for the best for him, but he is trapped in a situation that very few people ever get out of.

Haele

[Roselma]

4. It is more humane and pragmatic than simply

letting the homeless alcoholics live under a bridge. Plus, since is "saves" money over providing in-hospital treatment(s) over and over again. It accepts people "where/how they are" in life and tries to make the best of a bad situation.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Paid for with public or private or nonprofit funds? It makes a difference, I think.

Generally, it sounds like it's better for all that they have a safe warm place to be, but I'd like to see support provided for working toward sobriety.

If publicly funded, it might be a good thing but I'd become less supportive if they bring in AA because of the religious angle.

Good question...

[Stinky The Clown]

8. The story doesn't address funding, but in this case it is a public/private partnership

The city and Catholic Charities.

I will say something about my limited exposure to Catholic Charities. I have done three pro bono projects for them over the years, each serving the homeless/indigent population of Baltimore. I never saw or heard any overt religiosity. Nuns in street clothes ran one of the places, a women's shelter. I have no idea how counseling might have gone (if, indeed, there even was any), but I can say with certainty there was not even a crucifix in view in a private office, let alone in the public areas.

The work done here by Catholic Charities fills a real need. Their concerns (and methods, at least as far as I could see) were right in line with my own very liberal views. I know there are some far right Catholic organizations. In my personal experience, Catholic Charities is not one of them.

YMMV

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

21. Here we go again with the AA is religious theme

:) It's not. No one makes anyone do anything in AA. AA stresses spiritual growth which can be obtained without religion. Besides AA wouldn't participate if it implies affiliation. :bounce: Not arguing with you NYC, just clarifying..............

[Stinky The Clown]

22. (I am agreeing with you)

Here are the 12 steps/principles. They do, indeed, mention God, but in a stiltedly odd way.

The AA Principles and Virtues

Honesty
Step 1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

Hope
Step 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Faith
Step 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.

Courage
Step 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Integrity
Step 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Willingness
Step 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humility
Step 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Brotherly Love
Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Justice
Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Perserverance
Step 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Spirituality
Step 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.

Service
Step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

They establish at the outset "God as we understand him

True enough, any given AA or Alanon, or NA, or Naranon, or GA, etc., group could come off as religious, but the prime organizations are not. It is the religiosity of some of the local groups that contribute to the notion that they're religiously based.

[bahrbearian]

23. AA allows you to substitute "Good " for God in the case of Atheist

[madamesilverspurs]

26. I recently lost a dear friend.

He was the life of any party, and he delighted in bringing smiles wherever he could. At the time we met he'd been sober about six years, and he remained passionate about AA for the twenty-odd years that I knew him. And no one in AA ever told him he had to quit being a Buddhist.


-

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Which is great for people who agree that sobriety depends on 'god as we understand him'

For people who DON'T think their sobriety is dependent upon 'God' or 'God as we understand him' or a doorknob or 'spirituality' or any of that, though, it's important to know that there ARE non-12 step alternatives that WORK FOR LOTS OF US TOO.

http://rational.org

http://lifering.org/

[Warren DeMontague]

28. It's important to know that AA is NOT the only option to stay sober.

There are a whole host of other paths that work for people; from rational recovery to lifering secular recovery groups, etc. that do NOT require or even 'suggest' the semantic gymnastics that many Atheists must perform to reconcile themselves with 'coming to believe' in a 'higher power'.

Are you saying you honestly can't understand how holding hands and saying the lord's prayer at the end of every meeting might come of as just a little bit religious to those of us who really don't want ANYTHING to do with churches, etc.?


I don't begrudge people for whom AA and the 12 steps work. But when 12 Steppers tell Atheists that they have the ONE AND ONLY WAY to stay sober, they're not only incorrect, they're also sending some of those people back out to their deaths.

That's wrong IMHO.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

30. That's just it.

You (or I) don't have to hold hands and participate in the prayer. There are many meetings I know of that end in a moment of silence. Also, in the AA Big Book it says, AA is not the only way to get sober. It's the way that worked for the people who first wrote the book and then has been passed on to those who followed.
But I can see how reciting the prayers would make people feel uncomfortable.....

[Warren DeMontague]

31. And like I said, I think that's great- for the people for whom it works.

My problem is when treatment and recovery are presented in a monolithic, one-size-fits-all fashion. One size does most decidedly NOT fit all. This becomes even more of a problem when people are mandated by courts to attend meetings. While AA may not be religious according to some members, or 'require belief' (how would that work, exactly?) courts have recognized thorny establishment clause issues around requiring 12 step meetings.

And while the Big Book may say "AA is not the only way to get sober" (wait.. it does? What page?) certainly there are plenty of people IN AA who will tell you that it is the only way to get sober.

It's not.

[Fla_Democrat]

6. I prefer wet bars

and wet nurses, but hey, that's me.

I don't have an issue with it. Some people will never quit, and quite frankly, providing them a location to drink (smoke, shoot up), that will protect them (keep them from getting rolled by kids videotaping it for youtube), and the public at large (dare we say less DWI's) is a good thing.










:smoke:

[Scuba]

7. Bookmarked for later.

[blondeatlast]

9. One of those pesky "necessary evils." I read the whole linked article and

it seems like a good use of taxpayer funds, really. I imagine that it can reduce use of law enforcement resources considerably.

[LiberalLoner]

15. Yeah, I think it's necessary.. My brother was helped by a vet's organization

that got him off the streets, but required him to stay sober while he lived there. They recently got him a VA job and helped him get an apartment. Is he staying sober? Who knows? He won't give any of us his address or a phone number, he uses e-mail to communicate (sort of) with family. Have no idea where he is or how he is living.

My guess is he will probably go back to drinking. Most of the time even with all sorts of help and treatment, addicts go back to the addictive substance.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. Great new idea: compassionate non-judgmental care.

What a concept. By the way these homes do have rules about when where and how one drinks, and they of course encourage the residents to stop.

[Cal Carpenter]

11. No one should be homeless

House the people. There is more than enough housing.

This shouldn't even be an 'issue'.

What a sick world we are in where we can justify allowing sick people to have no home. Those arguing against this have a much harder case to make. That is my view.

[rug]

12. Here's an old article about Dutch houses.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl//2886851.html

[Cleita]

14. I think it's a good idea.

As an ex bartender I know that the only way people will straighten out their lives is for them to decide do it on their own, not being forced to by society. This lack of compassion for a sick person is what forces them out into the streets and the dangers they will encounter there. In the meantime, I believe people who are suffering from the disease of alcoholism deserve the same rights that we have to basic needs of food and shelter until they are able to make that decision to quit. Some never will recover and will die alcoholics just like many will die from cancer and not recover, but both diseases require compassion not punishment.

[Warpy]

19. I think it's a great idea.

The experience with them that I've read about so far suggests that once they have a roof over their heads and a door that locks some of the healthier ones decide to protect it any way they can, and that means getting sober.

Dry houses just have it backwards. There's little way to get sober and stay sober on the street and having sobriety as a requirement for housing is just not going to work. Either they'll sneak drinks outside, meaning they feel like garbage for lying, or they will give up on themselves from the beginning and not even bother to apply.

Just make sure there's a sprinkler system.

[Liberal_in_LA]

25. good idea. Better than alcoholics be on the street

[freeplessinseattle]

27. There's on in my neighborhood

Had no idea it was there until I read an article awhile back. Here's an excerpt from an article I found:

"Yet in the five years since it opened, 1811 Eastlake has saved taxpayers millions of dollars. A University of Washington study showed the residents tend to drink less, take fewer trips to the emergency room and are more likely to accept treatment once they're in a stable environment.

The publicly funded program, with an annual operating budget of just over $1 million, has no mandate that the residents stop drinking or receive treatment. But there are case workers and a nurse on staff to help willing residents tackle their life-threatening addiction.

Street alcoholics "will accept housing at a price they're willing to pay - and that's not having too many restrictions on their autonomy," said Daniel Malone, housing director at Downtown Emergency Service Center, the nonprofit homeless services agency that operates 1811 Eastlake."

http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-10-03/bay-area/24109530_1_alcoholics-seattle-peace

[eridani]

32. Why in fucking HELL should anyone be homeless for any reason? n/t