Largest-ever U.S. dam removal set to begin on Elwha River

[rsmith6621]

PORT ANGELES, Wash. (AP) - The Elwha River on Washington's Olympic Peninsula once teemed with legendary salmon runs before two towering concrete dams built nearly a century ago cut off fish access to upstream habitat, diminished their runs and altered the ecosystem.

On June 1, nearly two decades after Congress called for full restoration of the river and its fish runs, federal workers will turn off the generators at the 1913 dam powerhouse and set in motion the largest dam removal project in U.S. history.



http://www.komonews.com/news/local/122770969.html

[stevedeshazer]

1. This is great, and way overdue.

I've seen it myself. The freeing of the Elwha is a great thing for Cascadia!

[sabbat hunter]

2. and a bad day for renewable energy.

[XemaSab]

4. What do you mean by that?

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. There's no free lunch.

It's good for fish, but the loss of the dam will require more electricity from other sources such as the Centralia coal plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_Power_Plant

[stevedeshazer]

6. True, but as of now the northwest has an energy surplus.

And the Boardman coal-fired plant in Oregon is going to be shut down.

We can do this thing with new energy from wind and solar.

[bahrbearian]

10. Or the Deception pass, tidal current generators

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Real electricity can't be replaced by hypothetical solutions.

FWIW, I support the dam removal because habitat restoration is more urgently needed than the modest power the dams generate. But I don't pretend that this doesn't shift the energy load onto non renewable plants such as Centralia and the Satsop combustion turbine.

[bahrbearian]

22. Oh. the hypothetical Tidal generates in Coos Bay ?

or the ones in Scotland? "Tidal power, also called tidal energy, is a form of hydropower that converts the energy of tides into electricity or other useful forms of power. The first large-scale tidal power plant (the Rance Tidal Power Station) started operation in 1966." do a little research before you come to a Hypothetical Conclusion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. You have a plan to get that power from Scotland to Port Angeles?

If not, then your solution is hypothetical. Marine ecology concerns will preclude tidal electric generators in the sound (Tacoma Narrows and Deception Pass) for 20 years earliest.

Like the dams, tidal hydropower solutions will have an impact on fish, but unlike the dams, it's harder to understand and quantify the impact.

[bahrbearian]

27. Wrong! no impact on wildlife,, a Tidal Generator is nothing like a Dam

Tidal Stream Energy - is a company created to harness the kinetic energy in tidal currents off the coast of British Columbia, Canada. This is an opportunity to provide renewable energy (from the moon's gravitational pull) in an environmentally responsible manner. The tidal generators have a small footprint on the ocean floor, zero impact on wildlife and allow commercial and recreational activities on the surface above. The tidal generators are more than 50 feet below the surface and are invisible to the naked eye. A cable connecting the tidal generators to the electrical grid comes ashore and hooks up to the power grid in the same manner as electrical cables connect Vancouver Island to the mainland grid. There is essentially no infrastructure required on land.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Setting aside the environmental issues, they're hypothetical for another reason

http://www.energysavers.gov/renewable_energy/ocean/index.cfm/mytopic=50008

Economics. The cost to build, install and maintain a device with a load factor of 27% will never be economically feasible at current energy prices.

[CreekDog]

13. nevermind

now that i see your second post.

[bahrbearian]

8. Save the Northwest Tree Octopus

[Snoutport]

16. +8

[KT2000]

3. Yay!!!!

It mostly services the mills so they didn't have to pay the price for power everyone else has to.

The Tribe says the Elwa used to be so full of salmon you could hardly see the water. Of course it will never be like that again but they should be able to increase their numbers. Hats off to the Lower Elwa Tribe (part of S'Klallam) for their efforts.
They are also insisting upon a thorough cleanup of a dioxin/mercury etc. contaminated mill site (already shut down) so the tributaries can be restored.

[cilla4progress]

29. The Tribes are usually in the forefront

of environmental awareness and restoration.

[KT2000]

31. We have an inetresting

situation here. There are two tribes with different ideas about future use of the old mill site - both are under the S'Klallam. The Lower Elwa want thorough cleanup, restoration and leave it so the area can heal. The other, Jamestown, wants to develop the site to be a completely self-sustaining community of industry and condos.
Gotta go with the Elwa on this one.

[cilla4progress]

37. That IS interesting..

I a mutually satisfying decision can be reached!

[Hannah Bell]

7. wonder how much it has to do with the yuppification of the peninsula.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. They've been discussing this for 20 years or more. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

15. They've been discussing lots of things for a long time. I asked a simple question.

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. There have been a lot of changes around here because of yuppification.

I'm not sure that the dam removal is one of them. This wasn't a locally-driven decision.

[CreekDog]

12. are you actually advocating against endangered Salmon?

really?

nevermind that they are protected by law.

[Hannah Bell]

14. you inferred that -- from what? as you don't live here, you may not get what i'm talking about.

[CreekDog]

17. yes i do live here and you are advocating against Salmon

heck, you comment on Japan and Oakland (and you don't even know where Oakland is).

[Hannah Bell]

18. where is "here" and how long have you lived "here"? PA used to be working class central.

when i talk about oakland etc. i'm talking on the basis of public news reports & published history.

when i talk about the yuppification of the peninsula in relation to environmental concerns i'm speaking as a 4th-generation washingtonian & a 60-year native. i.e. the *question* i asked (not *claim* i made, not *statement* i made) is from that perspective.

now please point out where i "advocate against salmon".

is there anyone at DU who doesn't have knee-jerk disease?

you assume too much.

[CreekDog]

19. well it was done for Salmon, not protection of yuppies.

and i live where the law protects these endangered species, the USA.

[Hannah Bell]

20. ah, i see. you live in california. and nowhere did i advocate against salmon.

and you didn't understand the reason for my question & kneejerked.

[CreekDog]

21. can you tell me what you meant by it then?

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. There are many counties in WA which bear very little resemblance to 30 years ago.

Kitsap, Island and especially Clallam counties are three good examples of yuppification.

[CreekDog]

32. Wrong question...i asked her what she meant about Salmon in her statement

i've been to Washington including the Olympic Peninsula several times in recent years.

i want to know what she is saying about Salmon but she doesn't want to talk about Salmon, apparently.

everyone knows what "yuppification" is...although the more appropriate term is probably closer to gentrification.

[Hannah Bell]

34. which are part of "the peninsula". but whidbey & camano were the site of

upper-class retreats/vacation homes even when i was young.

[Hannah Bell]

35. i didn't mean so much, actually. just a general musing over the fact that a lot

of the peninsula seems to be turning into a retreat for the upper-middle to upper classes.

[CreekDog]

36. Well "Retreats" are now pretty much confined to the upper middle and upper classes

time off and a time to spend it in is increasingly not available to the general working class.

further, jobs for the working class are less and less available outside of large metropolitan areas.

although these trends are not things i like to see, the protection of the environment and species is required by law (not by yuppies --in case anyone thinks so).

[Hannah Bell]

38. and if you think environmental law is applied neutrally, you're dreaming.

[CreekDog]

39. Is far, far northern California "yuppie"?

no, it's one of the poorest regions in the country.

they are trying to take down dams up there for Salmon.

please go on about the Salmon protection being a yuppie thing...

you come here and say next to nothing about the issue and then pronounce that it's all done unfairly.

[Hannah Bell]

40. northern california is one of the poorest regions in the country? which area are you speaking of?

and i'm sorry, creek dog, i have said nothing like "salmon protecting is a yuppie thing". nor do i think salmon protecting is a yuppie thing, particularly.

you are really reading too much into my remarks.

please understand: when people don't share the same frame of reference they are liable to misinterpret each other. and my frame of reference for that remark is the class disparity in, e.g. siting and permitting of dirty industries, for example. among other things.

environmental laws aren't applied neutrally. it's simply a fact.

[CreekDog]

42. klamath river region...here...

shasta county, ca median income 2008 42k ca median 61k
jefferson county, wa median income 2008 50k wa median 58k

[Hannah Bell]

43. lol. jefferson county basically = port townsend, & it's not poor.

it's an old lumber barons'/shipowners' town invaded by california trust-funders in the 70s. They bought up all the old victorian mansions & turned it into a destination spot.

it's a area dominated by them, also artsy types + some lower-income natives and workers.

it was a papermill town/fishing town when i was a kid, down on its heels. i actually have some roots there, and worked as a maid in one of the victorian b&bs for awhile. jefferson co is where the yuppification of the peninsula *started* outside the islands.



http://www.starrettmansion.com/about.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=port+townsend&cp=7&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=984&bih=559&wrapid=tljp130675361717108&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Townsend


here are the poorest counties in the us. shasta & siskyou aren't among them. no counties in california or washington are.

median household income ranges from $9 - $22K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

PS: The median income in the county where i live is lower than shasta's.

[CreekDog]

44. you've forgotten your point already (but Mason county also has the same median)

your point was that river restoration was being attempted because of "yuppification".

i asked what about the efforts on the Klamath a poor region where the same efforts are being attempted. realizing it was in Northern California, you automatically doubted that it could be poor, apparently so familiar with the Pacific Northwest (after all, you live there) that you think San Francisco is a half hour drive south of Medford, Oregon.

both are below median income in their states, Shasta in particular is far below in a part of California known for its high rates of poverty and economic deprivation.

[Hannah Bell]

46. you said northern cal was one of the poorest regions in the country. it's not.

i don't know what you're talking about sf/medford. never said anything like that. i've been to medford; i've been to sf. i've been to various parts of n. cal.

whatever the background assumptions to your post are, i don't share them and don't know what you're talking about or what your point is. but i know shasta county isn't one of the poorest areas in the us.

[CreekDog]

48. freakin waste of time

just go ahead and think it's all for yuppies.

nothing i post and no actual information will change your mind. it's set.

you probably still think Fukushima isn't a serious problem too. nobody changed your mind there either.

[Hannah Bell]

49. you are actually leaping to unwarranted conclusions, but you're not alone at DU.

the "mind" you are imagining is a product of your own steretyped notions, not my mind. you don't have any idea what i believe. i have repeatedly stated that i don't hold the beliefs you ascribe to me and that i "didn't mean so much" by the initial question that drew your ire, yet you persist. if flatly stating that i don't hold the belief you ascribe to me doesn't affect your thinking, i'm not sure what will.

what i did do was challenge your assertions that environmental laws are applied neutrally and that n. cal is one of the poorest regions in the country. apparently any challenge to a point of fact relegates me to your 'hate' list. i'm sorry for that.

as for fukushima, i have nowhere said it's not a serious problem; i've repeatedly called it a crisis. again, you, like many others, mistake challenges to doomsaying, spin and erroneous points of fact as denial of the crisis itself.

i'm being polite and attempting to explain where i'm coming from as you have been an ally on ed deform, but i think our minds aren't going to meet on this one.

[CreekDog]

50. did i say "far, far Northern California" or not?

it is a poor region.

also, did i say that all environmental laws were applied uniformly and fairly? i never opined on that topic.

did i criticize you for immediately chalking up this issue to "yuppification" on the basis that you knew nothing about this particular effort aimed at restoring salmon and were undermining the work begun many years ago by dedicated public employees as just wanting to help yuppies?

yes, that's what i was criticizing you for.

and i bristle that you still twist my very, very clear "far, far Northern California" as a poor region (it is) as generic "Northern California" which contains the Bay Area. i even then went on to explain that i was referring to Klamath --you don't seem to know where that is or you would not keep insisting I meant all of Northern California.

play fair.

and stop always trying to find an economic villain in everything. they are there, but they are not always the main point or main driver of a story. in this case, the law says that all streams that support Salmon must be protected as such or such habitat must be restored. look around and you will find similar projects, plans, efforts around the West, often in poor and moderate income areas.

but you aren't going to bother because your mind is already made up. that's my frustration.

[Hannah Bell]

52. here's what you said: "far far northern california....one of the poorest regions in the country."

it's not.

i didn't "immediately chalk up...to yuppification." i asked a question. nor do i "know nothing" about the elwha dam removal. i know of it.

i nowhere discussed san francisco, nor did i mentally envision it as part of northern california, nor do i think of sf as being in n. cal. i didn't use your "far, far" as i consider it redundant and awkward, not because i was thinking of sf.

all these are things you *assumed*.

that's my frustration.

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. The Elwah dams are in Clallam county.

Median income, $47,000.

... and I'd call Clallam county mostly gentrified/retirement community too.

[oldlib]

53. When I lived in Port Angeles

in the early fifties, the paper mills were still strong and logging at its peak. No one suggested, at that time, that the dams had to go. They should have been demolished a long time ago.

[CreekDog]

33. the fish are protected by a few laws

one related to their endangered status and the other to allow them to live in a river that formerly supported them.

[Hannah Bell]

41. then why aren't they blowing up all the dams on the columbia?

[CreekDog]

45. is that your hypothesis?

you think there isn't money on the Columbia River?

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

47. i think that land usage patterns are much different along the columbia and elwha,

and the dominant economic interests much different as well.

and i know that my comment was in reference to your comments about equal application of environmental legislation.

your knee is jerking again.

[Snoutport]

28. The damn only powers 1700 homes. I'd like to say the salmon are worth more than that

so, one vote for the salmon!

[oldlib]

24. As a teenager

I fished the Elwha river and a favorite spot was in a pool just below the face of the lower dam. The fish couldn't go any further upstream because there was not a fish ladder. This is basically why the dams are coming down. The Elwha terminates at the Straights of Juan De Fuca, at an Indian reservation, at the mouth.