Never Trust A Christian (Actual title of the article)

[cleanhippie]

Bastrop High School promised to obey the law against school-led prayer at official events, although they were also petty and mean about it, and have been making life hellish for the young man who complained. Now here's the surprise (not): in an official function called Senior Night, they announced a moment of silence…and then said a Christian prayer anyway, to the cheers of the Christian majority. Never mind that it was illegal, never mind that they broke their agreement; religious sanctimony trumps all.

And we have video.

I suspect that at the official graduation ceremony tomorrow, they'll also manage to get someone up there to lead the school in sectarian proselytization and social pressure, and they won't even care that it's discriminatory.

I do hope they get sued.

--snip--

I suppose I should start including general explanations for the terminally obtuse.

There is no proscription against individual prayer. If 99.9% of the students had taken advantage of the moment of silence to bow their heads and beg Jesus to help them get laid after the kegger that night, NO PROBLEM.

There is a proscription against compelling EVERYONE to participate in sectarian prayer. When someone stands up and announces that we're all going to ask Jesus Christ for a blessing, PROBLEM.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/05/never_trust_a_christian.php

---------------------------------------------------------------

As one of the commenters to this article stated,

"Don't worry PZ, any minute now there will be an overwhelming tide of condemnation of these people from the true Christians who are nice people who wouldn't stand for this sort of bullying behavior.

Any minute now..."

[bluestateguy]

1. The fact is this

School prayer prohibitions (as mandated by two USSC rulings in 1962 and 1963) are in practice very hard to enforce.

If the overwhelming, almost unanimous majority in a town is of a particular faith and they want to recite a prayer with the approval of the school, well, it's probably going to happen. Realistically, it's not like the police are going to show up to order the prayers to stop and arrest people who persist.

I know people who attended public schools in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's, and they have all told me that prayers took place anyway with their schools blessings. This was long after the Court's rulings in Engel v. Vitale and Abnington Township v. Schempp.

[cleanhippie]

2. So, it would seem that you are saying "just deal with it?"

Am I reading you right?

[Goblinmonger]

3. If it is done with the approval of the school it is unconst itutional and this instance

is being watched. The school's mike is the government's mike and the 1st Amendment says they can't do this. I hope they try and I hope they get in trouble.

[The Magistrate]

4. Or, Sir, To Put It Shorter: Many Christians Break The Law, Knowingly And Intentionally

[blondeatlast]

6. Indeed. And for the record, I'm a practicing Christian.

It's not okay to break the law, and we shouldn't just "give it a pass." Ever.

[joeglow3]

8. I call bullshit

A number of years ago, our city outlawed giving out free meals to the homeless in certain areas. MANY Christians said "Fuck that" and did it anyway (and I, as a Christian, fully supported them). Just because a group of men pass a law does not mean I will blindly follow it if I know, in my heart, it is wrong.

[blondeatlast]

9. There's kindness and there's arrogance. Prayers at the graj ceeremony

is arrogance.

And somehow, I'm fairly certain there was more to the issue you present than just "feeding the homeless."

[joeglow3]

10. Not really

A few groups knew the largest concentration of homeless were downtown, so they handed out meals in the downtown park every day. People did not like all the homeless showing up there (in the main downtown park), so they outlawed it.

[blondeatlast]

11. There's a world of difference between feeding the homeless and

saying a prayer at a graduation. If they wanted religion to be part of it, they simply could have had a convocation before the graj ceremony.

In this case, it's sheer arrogance to do so at the graj ceremony.

[joeglow3]

33. I NEVER commented on the prayer issue

I took offense to your comment "It's not okay to break the law, and we shouldn't just "give it a pass." Ever." which is CLEARLY wrong.

[cleanhippie]

42. So just what is it you are calling "bullshit" on?

[joeglow3]

45. Can you read????

It is explained pretty damn clearly in the post you just reponded to.

[cleanhippie]

52. I read just fine, thank you.

You posted upthread this: A number of years ago, our city outlawed giving out free meals to the homeless in certain areas. MANY Christians said "Fuck that" and did it anyway (and I, as a Christian, fully supported them). Just because a group of men pass a law does not mean I will blindly follow it if I know, in my heart, it is wrong.


Then myself and others questioned you on what you said, asking if you are comparing YOUR story to the OP, and now you say NO. So what the fuck were you "calling bullshit" on in the first place and what does your little story here have to do with the OP?

[joeglow3]

56. Apparently your comprehension is lacking big time

My post was a CLEAR response to the comment "It's not okay to break the law, and we shouldn't just "give it a pass." Ever."

Maybe if I point this out to you a dozen more times, it will sink in.

[cleanhippie]

60. maybe its YOUR comprehension that is the problem.

What does your story have to do with the OP?

[joeglow3]

62. My land. My 5 year old is not THIS bad.

Let me break this down REAL simple.

blondeatlast said: "It's not okay to break the law, and we shouldn't just "give it a pass." Ever."

I replied saying I called bullshit, explained we are morally obligated to violate laws that are unjust and gave a clear example.

You then came in with your 1st grade reading comprehension skills and were unable to follow such a simple thread, even after it was pointed out to you multiple times.

[cleanhippie]

17. So where is the part in your story where the government went against the Constitution?

[joeglow3]

34. Read the thread again

I took offense to the comment "It's not okay to break the law, and we shouldn't just "give it a pass." Ever." which is CLEARLY wrong.

[cleanhippie]

54. But in this case, it IS NOT OK to break the law, and it should not "get a pass".

[Exultant Democracy]

24. Guess what the people who passed that law were undoubtly christian too.

There are effectively no atheist holding elected office in the US. (sometimes their are up to 5) Atheist are the most discriminated against group in America and the OP is about another egregious example of this discrimination.

[provis99]

14. thank you for slurring non-Christians.

[joeglow3]

35. WTF???

How did I slur non-Christians? Because the example that happened in my city happened to involve Christians????

[cleanhippie]

16. Are you seriously equating your right to give free food (not a law) with the prohibition

of a public school giving a christian prayer at a school function (law against that)?

Seriously?




Bullshit, indeed.

[blondeatlast]

26. Yes, he was. And it makes this Christian sick.

We aren't persecuted in the US, far, far from it--and I'm sick of reading and hearing how we are.

[PassingFair]

40. You are quickly becoming my favorite Christian!

:hi:

Thank you for your obvious empathy and
common sense.

[joeglow3]

36. Jesus, is this "jump to conclusion" day?

I took offense to the comment "It's not okay to break the law, and we shouldn't just "give it a pass." Ever." which is CLEARLY wrong.

[cleanhippie]

43. So just what is it you are calling "bullshit" on?

[joeglow3]

46. Can you read?

It is explained pretty damn clearly in the post you just reponded to.

[cleanhippie]

53. Can you?

You posted upthread this: A number of years ago, our city outlawed giving out free meals to the homeless in certain areas. MANY Christians said "Fuck that" and did it anyway (and I, as a Christian, fully supported them). Just because a group of men pass a law does not mean I will blindly follow it if I know, in my heart, it is wrong.


Then myself and others questioned you on what you said, asking if you are comparing YOUR story to the OP, and now you say NO. So what the fuck were you "calling bullshit" on in the first place and what does your little story here have to do with the OP?

[joeglow3]

57. Jesus fucking christ. You need to go back to school.

Let me break this down REAL simple.

blondeatlast said: "It's not okay to break the law, and we shouldn't just "give it a pass." Ever."

I replied saying I called bullshit, explained we are morally obligated to violate laws that are unjust and gave a clear example.

You then came in with your 1st grade reading comprehension skills and were unable to follow such a simple thread, even after it was pointed out to you multiple times.

[themadstork]

48. He's objecting to the unthinking compliance with law.

But the reality is about half the American population are Good Germans, and will never be anything other. For a variety of reasons. Observe the GG's you know and notice that their views on e.g. torture inevitably sway to the decree of Authority. They may have novel or convoluted reasoning in support of their apologism, but when it comes down to brass tacks they, psychologically, cannot disobey Authority.

[kenfrequed]

32. Where are you from?

And what city was this?

I would just like to read more about this.


In other news I don't think the situations are comparable. Providing free meals to homeless people might be in violation of some pesky city ordinance like not being allowed to paint your house purple.

The first Amendment is something entirely different and the establisment clause is intended to protect people that have a diverging or minority religious belief from the majority. Your comparison does not hold water.

But I still want to read about this city where feeding the homeless is illegal.

[joeglow3]

37. I NEVER made that comparison

I refuted the claim that "it is NEVER okay to break a law."

Given that MULTIPLE large cities across the US have/had this type of law, I am surprised you have never heard of it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/03/national/main2429393.shtml

[kenfrequed]

41. Seems pretty parallel to me

So it is ok to break an amendment and a law? I'm sorry but that is too close an example. Now which city is it?

[joeglow3]

47. Okay, I will try to break this down REAL simple for you

An individual said it is NEVER okay to break a law. I said it is bullshit to blindly follow all laws and that there are times where you are morally obligated to ignore a law. As an example, I stated and linked a common law in large cities across the country.

Your response appears to disagree with it. However, lets consider us, as a nation, fortunate that you live today and we did not need to rely on your help to fight against all the racist laws in our nation's past.

[kenfrequed]

61. Oh... I totally get it now!

You were thread-hijacking by ignoring the spirit or purpose of the topic and running away with a wild tangent.

Oh yeah and reported, for the record.

[roguevalley]

39. agreed ten thousand percent. Its like saying men rape so all men

are rapists. Broad brushes say a lot about the prejudices of the holder.

[cleanhippie]

15. and frequently.

[EstimatedProphet]

50. As a matter of fact, yes they do

It's part of the tenet of being "saved" (in practice anyway) that when you are saved, everything yo do from then on doesn't matter anymore. At least, that's what I have often heard from people who are saved - quite often they say this while they are drinking, since it's now OK according to them for them to drink, but not for anyone else. As a matter of fact, there is a passage (which I haven't found yet) that the Dominionists use for self-justification, that is basically Christ instructing his followers to lie and deceive in order to get their way.

[Book Lover]

20. So your advice to people in a cultural minority is to suck it up?

Thanks for the support, pal!

[blondeatlast]

27. That's pretty much the argument. It's vile. nt

[Bandit]

55. A good indication why Republicans feel Laws are for the other people.

When one learns in school that the Law is not something that HAS to be obeyed but can be disregarded at any time on a whim, it suddenly becomes quite clear why Republicans are like they are. Lying, Cheating, Mean Spiritedn Assholes.

[guyton]

5. "true Christians"

Anyone tempted to use the phrase "all true ..." needs to read the wikipedia article on "no true Scotsman"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

A brief quote:

Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.

[L0oniX]

13. ***

[RebelOne]

19. I am of Scottish descent and I visited Scotland

and ate haggis. At that time, I thought it was delicious. I am now a vegetarian and would not eat haggis on a bet.

[Cronus Protagonist]

23. I am Scottish

And I eat haggis. I am a true Scotsman.

[guyton]

38. a true Scotsman

ok ... but before you claim to be a true scotsman, check out ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Scotsman

:D

[Nye Bevan]

7. President Obama is a Christian

and I don't think he would be in favor of this kind of illegal act.

Do you?

[Fumesucker]

12. Here's some of his campaign literature..

I honestly don't know what Obama would support..

[cleanhippie]

18. Who knows? He, as President, is very very silent on the issue.

And in cases like this, silence equals approval.

[thereismore]

21. I'd say! nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

22. The disenting students should just chant USA USA USA over the prayer

That would confuse the hell out of them... the clash of two religions, the USA and Christianity.

[Wait Wut]

25. A moment of silence...

...means silence. Case closed.

Anyone that thinks they need to pray out loud doesn't have faith in their God. They're using their God for grandstanding. I believe that's some kind of sin or something.

[Nye Bevan]

28. I watched the video. Is this really a Christian prayer?

The prayer was "I would like to give thanks to the God that has made the class of 2011 a great success". But it seems that this could apply to many religions, not just Christianity. Of course there should not have been a prayer, but not being a specifically Christian prayer would seem to be a mitigating factor. Also, it appears that this was one student disobeying instructions, as opposed to an organized effort by the school to defy the law.

[AlabamaLibrul]

30. She ended it with "In Jesus name, I pray. Amen." Wild cheers, "And now, a moment of silence" nt

[cleanhippie]

44. Yes, it was.

And regardless of whether it was a "christian" prayer or not, it WAS a christian flagrantly ignoring the law and proclaiming their superiority.

[ZombieHorde]

63. Yes. There is a lot of context here. nt

[AlabamaLibrul]

29. This is also common here. The loud, pray to baby Jesus "moment of silence" nt

[kenfrequed]

31. Oh sure...

Yeah, because those Christians that stand up to religious intimidation are so loud and vocal... oh wait a minute.

[malaise]

49. That is one of my philosophical truths n/t

[The Nexus]

51. Only thing they can do is lawsuits

And even then many will have, either through themselves or through other associates, access to the capitol to afford this. And with no overestimation, the majority do have deeeeeeeeeeeeeep pockets. And they will continue to break the law even though the judiciary has said no. Either way, they don't care at all what right minded people think.

[GeorgeGist]

58. Forked-tongue ...

AmericanChristian as Apple Pie.

[pipi_k]

59. Trust me...I'm a Christian...

Used car salesman

Richard Nixon

etc.




Laws...no laws...

Someone's WORD should be their bond.


So somebody lied, and they all cheered.


Role models for the rest of us... :eyes: