Help me counteract this libertarian

[Manifestor_of_Light]

I am S. and she is K.


My first email:
To: Libertarian woman
Subject: Obama and Seth Meyers standup


Obama's standup routine at the White House Correspondents' Dinner, including
the "original birth video" which you HAVE to see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mzJhvC-8E&feature=youtu.be

Seth Myers following Obama with more deserved abuse of Donald Trump:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGITlxfT6s

Both full of excellent zingers. Trump got up and left with steam coming out
of
his ears.

S.
======

her response:

From:libertarian woman
Subject: Re: Obama and Seth Meyers standup
To:ME
Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 11:05 PM


I am so disgusted with Bush employee Obama that I cannot stand to listen to
him.....-k
==========

Received: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:21:07 AM EDT
From: ME
To: <Libertarian woman>
Subject: Re: Obama and Seth Meyers standup

That's too bad.

So are you like all the rednecks around here that hate him so much that you
can't say his name?

That's why we don't have any white friends here in teaparty land.

I certainly don't think he's a liberal (he is bought off by the corporations
like they all are) but he's smarter than Bush.

S.

========
Received: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:21:07 AM EDT
From: <Libertarian woman>
Subject: Re: Obama and Seth Meyers standup
To: ME
Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 11:56 PM


OH S.- I believe he is OWNED by Bush. He is doing EXACTLY what Bush would
have done to further forward the New World Order. Understand, I believe that
the Patriot Act was the most evil piece of nazi legislation ever passed in
this county- and it made it possible for Obama to do the dumb things he has
done. Republican or Democrat- both parties are owned by the same people. We
live in a one party system and are given the illusion of two parties so we
think we have choice. Redneck? no. Just so disgusted with politicians that
there are few I have any respect for. Smarter than Bush? Bush was probably
mind controlled by the nazi CIA programs his father pushed as head of same.
He
was an idiot. I don't think Obama is much smarter- just much better at BSing
with words. I pray for the day that people wake up that realize just how
little government they need. Politicians are just very expensive middle men
who take a lion's share for their cut. I think it was Thomas Paine who said,
"No man is good enough to be another man's master." Many Americans just
want
to be taken care of and have no concern for the costs. Slavery hasn't ended-
it has just taken on a new face. Every time you pay for someone else's idea
of
'how to live', you become their slave. Our slave labor pays for idiot wars,
and idiot programs. Conservatives and Liberals alike, espouse big government-
just slightly different versions. It is all BS. I still hope for a return to
freedom (pretty much forgotten since the Federal Reserve began to run things)
- and worry that that word will soon be omitted from the dictionary. -k

======================


Received: Thu, 05 May 2011 01:51:48 AM EDT
From: ME
To: <Libertarian woman>
Subject: Re: Obama and Seth Meyers standup

Ideally the govt would be furthering the General Welfare, or the
Commonwealth.
Somebody online asked me where in the Constitution it said we were supposed to
have universal health care. I said "General Welfare clause" and drove them
crazy.

I wish there was a giant WPA program to get full employment, like a much
larger version of the stimulus money and the bailout money for GM. They
built lots of courthouses, Hoover Dam, the Golden Gate and Oakland Bridges,
and lots of other major infrastructure projects with the WPA. Now the
infrastructure is in bad shape.

I wish that for our taxes, we had universal health care (like all other
civilized countries seem to have) and a social safety net. That makes for a
more stable society. We have for profit companies rationing health care, and
health care should not be a for profit enterprise. They screamed about death
panels but they have their own version of Social Darwinism -- killing off the
poor and disabled. They scream about abortion but don't want to pay for
prenatal care, Women Infants and Children nutrition program, which is
preventive care, or anything else that does not punish a single mother.
Programs like WIC and HeadStart help people, and save money in the long run.
The Republicans hate those programs. If they were truly pro-life they
would support good nutrition and those other things, and not support bombing
innocent people in other countries.

Most people in our country believe that old people should have some retirement
security and medical care. Social Security and Medicare are the two most
successful government programs we have, and are very efficient. Of course,
the Republicans were opposed to both of them. They have always been on the
wrong side of anything that might help our country move forward and be more
just and compassionate.

In california they froze property taxes because old people did not want to
support the common good by paying property taxes to support the local public
schools. I wouldn't mind paying taxes if they were using it to help people
instead of fighting imperalist wars we don't have any business in.

Eisenhower in his farewell address warned against the military-industrial
complex. We now have govt contractors sucking tons of government money --
the right wing has no problem with that, or the prison-industrial complex. In
that case you deny minorities and poor people a meanngful education, you do
not create jobs so that the only alternative they have to making money is
selling drugs, then you send them to prison so they can be slave labor for the
big corporations. Angela Davis has written a lot about that.

They are destroying the schools, and privatizing everything so that we have an
ignorant populace who votes republican because they have been convinced to
vote against their best interests, because someday they will be rich too!!!
They are sucking up to the rich who really just want to exploit them and send
us back to the days of Oliver Twist and poorhouses. They want to repeal
minimum wage laws, child labor laws and all that and go back to the robber
barons.

My dad used to show up on picket lines in the Depression, against oil
companies who were locking out strikers. He was a union organizer. Besides
being a pipefitter, and an attorney, thanks to going to law school on the GI
Bill (The Republicans opposed that too--it would educate millions of men who
would make higher wages). If you showed up on a picket line to assert your
rights, you got hit in the head with a billy club and dragged off to jail. And
the only person with $100 bail was Sophie Mandell, the wife of the only labor
lawyer in town. She bailed them all out. The murders of workers and
strikers for decades, like the Ludlow massacre, the Triangle Shirtwaist
Factory fire, and various strikes culminated in the passage of labor laws and
the right to organize unions. Union wages lift up other wages. Decades of
agitation resulted in Federal labor laws.

Unfortunately the "free market" will not make everything rosy. The
invisible hand mentioned by Adam Smith was only a passing reference, and not
a major principle.

Unregulated businesses are not safe, because safety costs money -- aircraft
maintenance, mine safety, food safety. Anything that cuts into profits is
considered to be bad, so the rich will continue to maximize profits, do
illegal and unsafe things that jeopardize peoples' lives. The "free market" is
a justification for unbridled greed and selfishness. The rich are NOT morally
superior and it is proven that they will never do the right thing for safety
and workers unless they are sued to get their attention. And when they do,
they will gripe endlessly that it is costing them so much money they will have
to shut down. The same thing happens when the minimum wage goes up a few
cents. They predict they will have to shut down over those outrageous high
wages they have to pay. That never happens either.

Reagan busted the Air Traffic Controllers Union, and they now have ATCs
falling asleep because the rules of the powers that be, who want us to all be
serfs in a feudal state, work the people too hard. The rules makers insist
the problem is the workers, not the fact that they refuse, like all employers,
to take the condition of being human into the rules. Things like pregnancy
disability, bathroom breaks, lunch breaks, hours of sleep people need, and all
that. They want us to literally kill ourselves working because THEY DO NOT
CARE.

They talk about productivity. Now we have one person doing the work of three
people.
What's the most productive nation on earth? Germany. They get four to six
weeks of vacation every year though.

I don't think government itself is the problem. It's what type (the fascism we
are racing toward) and how big and what functions. Government can destroy
society by scapegoating and pitting one group against another (As we have with
the Muslim hate, formerly occupied by Jews). Or it can help people to work
together in their communities.

I have a book written in 1980 that explains exactly where we've been going
since the Reagan years called FRIENDLY FASCISM by Bertram Gross.

You know about doublespeak and propaganda by the govt. You undoubtedly know
that Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays, invented the modern PR industry and
propaganda thru advertising exploiting the needs discovered by his uncle, like
being popular, being sexy, fitting into the crowd, being an individual that is
different, etc.

I do not understand why libertarians talk about small government but seem to
be hellbent on controlling women, outlawing birth control and abortion and
generally being obsessed with women's reproduction just like the
Republicans. There are charitable functions that too many people need, or
are too specialized for charities to take over. Food banks are already
overwhelmed.

Insurance is socialistic in that it is supposed to spread the risk around to
bring costs down. We could be spending a lot less money on health care by
making it universal and using preventive care. But we don't. Bill Frist's
family owned Humana and made billions. The gov of florida was part of a very
large company that was busted for Medicare fraud and had to pay a big fine --
but of course nobody was prosecuted.

There's a phrase on FARK people use --IOKIYAR - It's Okay if You are a
Republican.

However, the politicians are all siphoning money, bought off whores, and it
all goes to big companies that privatize the profit and socialize the risk.
They balance the budget on the backs of the poor and destroy the middle
class. Trickle down doesn't work. Supply side economics of Milton Friedman
and the University of Chicago does not work. You can have millions of tons
of goods in the warehouse, and if nobody wants to buy it, there is no
demand. Demand is the only thing that creates jobs. Tax cuts for
millionaires don't create jobs. The rich are cutting their own throats by
not paying people a living wage, since you get a slowing of the economy
because the poor and middle class have no money to buy food, gas and pay the
rent.

People are finally getting mad over the fact that GE paid no taxes in the U.S.
and the oil companies do not need subsidies.

You are right - a lot of our rights are gone -- like the Fourth Amendment
against unreasonable search and seizure, the 14th amendment due process and
equal protection. And the evangelicals want to make this a Christian nation
and they are so blinded by it they can't imagine anything else. Anytime
somebody tells me this is a Christian nation I refer them to the Treaty of
Tripoli, signed in 1797 by John Adams and unanimously ratified by Congress.


The fundies are trying to relitigate a lot of stuff that was settled in the
90s and 00s. Like teaching intelligent design, which was struck down in the
Dover, Delaware case as not being science and not to be taught in biology
class.

Since Reagan decided to close the mental hospitals, the fundies have now made
vagrancy and homelessness criminal offenses so they can throw people in jail
without actually treating them or dealing with the problem.

A person I know who is a Democrat was bitching about Obama being a socialist.
I told him "They won't let him do anything truly liberal, because if he does,
they will take him out, just like they did with Kennedy when he wanted to
abolish the Federal Reserve,"

Jesse Ventura said on Piers Morgan's show that JFK was taken out by the guy
who killed Che Guevara and also E. Howard Hunt. Jesse said that Oswald did not
kill Kennedy. Piers said "Why?" Jesse said, "Because I am certified as an
Expert Marksman andI only got one shot out in eight seconds on a piece of
crap bolt action rifle, and Oswald supposedly got three shots off in six
seconds."

Piers was utterly shocked at the notion that our government would lie to us
and lies all the time. Everything Jesse said shocked him. I was glad to see
Jesse because I think he has a lot of sense and asks a lot of questions which
he catches hell for.

S.

==================
"Libertarian woman's response"

I think that people who wish that government would make all their decisions
for them should have that option and live together- but those of us who do NOT
want government in our lives should not have to support their plans. We should
have our own space. I use alternative medicine, which Big Pharma is trying to
outlaw and destroy, and support for Big Pharma and the FDA comes mostly from
Democrats. The recent misnamed "Food Safety Bill" that they so espoused
forces small farms (and the CDC admits that the healthy food comes from these
farms) to purchase expensive machinery that they cannot afford- or close down.
Big Agribiz HAS that machinery and will now have a monopoluy on food
production-- and THEY produce ALL the bad food!!! Monsanto and its gm poison
products is supported just as much by Dems as Repubs. I do not use
pharmaceuticals and do not want to be part of or pay into any government run
health plan. I cannot think of anything the government has run successfully. I
am told of other countries that have successful health plans- but when I have
spoken with people from those countries I hear very different stories (and
since I do volunteer work answering emails for the Natural Solutions
Foundation, I read a lot of mail from around the world- relating to health).

ALL wealth is created in the private sector -then a huge chunk is transferred
to the public sector and spent there. But public sector jobs do NOT create
wealth -they just push it around. I went through those beliefs in my early
economics classes where Keynes was spoken of like a God. It wasn't until I got
to Hazlet, Rothbard and Von Mises that I realized why Keynesianism HAS to
fail. Rothbard's "America's Great Depression" shows how the government took
what would have been a six month downturn and turned it into a ten year
depression- while tranferring more of the wealth to the ruling class/Fed
Reserve owners. Government does not create REAL jobs. It transfers the money
from producers to the projects it chooses and takes a BIG Chunk as its cut! I
recently saw a cartoon of two men sitting in a Bar. One had Public Sector
written on his tee shirt and the other had Private Sector written on his. The
Public Sector guy was bawling into his beer and crying "They are going to
lower my pension payments!" The private sector guy looks at him, puzzled, and
says, "Pension? What's a pension?" Public Sector benefits are ridiculously
high compared to those in the Private Sector that provides the wealth to pay
for all.

Free Market?? This country hasn't had a true free market for more than 150
years! We have a socialist government wherein certain corporations have
bought politicians and the power that goes with that purchase. Libertarians
are anti-abortion?? All of the ones that I know believe abortion is an
important right. And they believe in helping people. Liberals do that at a
distance- here- take some money and disappear- I can feel good and I don't
actually have to see you! Three years ago, I took in two people (no relation)
who lost their jobs. I am not rich and almost lost my house 4 years ago as the
economy sank, so this was not easy for us. They are still here because the
economy is bad because the government overregulated and overtaxed wealth
producing businesses so much that they either died or left the country. I
have one child because that is what I could afford. I resent my Catholic
neighbors who have ten children and think their education should be provided
and I feel sorry for those (especially the elderly whose incomes have not kept
up) people who have no children and have to foot so many bills for others. I
do not resent SOME public charity. But I do not believe that it is the Right
of any person to make another his/her slave. I do NOT believe that Social
Security is successful since the same money (taken by the government) and
invested in other programs would have produced much more income per
participant than Social Security provides. I have seen those numbers. And
Medicare? What a joke!

I agree that we should not be fighting imperialist wars. I like Harry Browne's
quip that we should close down the ridiculously expensive embassies and
replace them with a phone booth with an 800 number for Americans abroad to
call home.

I agree with you that Republican politicians are mostly shits. So are Democrat
politicians. They both answer to the same Bankster/NWO bosses at the top. It
was the Dems who decided to keep the nazi Patriot Act going when they had the
chance to repeal it, and they are the ones who so generously gifted the shit
Banksters. I supppose you think that was all right because they are Democrats.
And look at how they have expanded the war machine. But that's ok, because
they are Democrats. And BOTH parties lie to us all the time. I am laughing
over the BS that they just killed Osama. Sure! What a load of crap!

Yes, we are headed toward a third world existence. But that is because the
wealth producers have given up and there is little left of their carcasses to
go round. Those on the take will be screaming "more, more!" as they are in
Wisconsin- but when there is less and less money coming in- any checks written
will be worthless. These people think that money is actually something you
really can "print". They think "expanding the economy" means magically making
the productive sector bigger. It doesn't. In government language, it means
"printing more money". If you were a shoe maker and wanted to sell a pair of
shoes you had put great effort into, would you trade them for $10 silver or
$10 paper?? What if the government (no, the Federal Reserve) was printing so
much money that it was going down in value? Which would you choose? The Roman
emperors used to call in all the coinage when they needed more money and clip
the corners of the gold coins to melt and make more coins from. Of course,
this meant that the original coins were worth less. And the more coins minted
through clipping, the less each one was worth. It's worse with dollar bills
because they have no backing at all! The 'system' should look something like a
pyramid with a huge manufacturing base supporting a small public sector on
top. But our pyramid is upside down and about to topple over. Too few are
expected to support too many. With nothing left for themselves, they are
quitting.

Prenatal care? Frankly, anyone who doesn't do their own research and isn't
careful of what they ingest during pregnancy shouldn't be having a kid. But of
course, they do! No matter the many idiot bureaucrats who will interfere in
its life, the child will have a messy one. Years ago, I read of an
independently wealthy woman who would go to areas of L.A. where drug addicts
hung out (figuring the children they often produced would be the worst off),
and she offered each one she met, $1,000 in cash to have a reversible
tube-tying (which she paid for). Many jumped at the bargain, and of course,
ran off and bought more drugs with the cash. But at least they were not
producing sickly children to be mismanaged by "caring" bureaucrats (what??
they're not giving me the raise I wanted just because so many are out of work?
How dare they expect me to cut back like everyone else!!) While the government
tells us in the private sector that we must all tighten our belts (soon we
will be eating them), they are spending more and more themselves and I have
never see such greed as I have seen on television watching those bureaucrats
scream for more money. The Big Cuts in government spending were actually NOT
real cuts. They were actually just cuts in the INCREASE that they are
spending. So at what point do you tell the spoiled child that the allowance is
being cut off? Real money does NOT come out of printing presses. And freedom
is only rarely protected by legislation. -K


===================
This is ME speaking.
When I said libertarians were anti-abortion, I was referring to Ron and Rand Paul. Ron Paul has been an OB/gyn in Lake Jackson, TX, (the company town for Dow Chemical in Freeport) and said he had never had a patient with a life threatening pregnancy. He is a LIAR. That is statistically impossible, with ectopic pregnancies, deformed fetuses, fetuses who die in utero and thus threaten the mother's life with septicemia (a systemic infection that will kill her). You could include C-sections to save the mother and baby's life because the mom's pelvis is too small for the baby's head to come out. I would have died without a C section to save my life and my daughter's life, for that matter.

I thought my last rant about the general welfare and the WPA and Reagan's union busting was pretty damn clear (I'm a pretty good writer) but I guess it won't penetrate this woman's skull. I am considering just not sending her any more emails. I did know she was a libertarian.

She says Keynesian economics doesn't work??? I thought that was what put people to work.

This woman thinks SS and medicare and universal health care are failures.
I need some good statistics.

Thanks to all you smart DUers.

:banghead:

[Zoeisright]

1. Tell her if she's so anti-government then she's going to have to:

1. Build her own roads
2. Solve crime by herself
3. Put out fires by herself
4. Dig wells and purify her own water
5. Do her own weather forecasting
6. Grow all her own food and make sure it's safe
7. Produce her own electricity
8. Have a horse instead of a car
9. Take no medications AT ALL - she's going to have to grow all her own home remedies
10. Get off the internet
11. Produce her own electricity
12. Dig her own outhouse
13. Give up air travel
14. No more Social Security or Medicare

Etc. etc. etc. Libertarians are incredibly selfish and stupid. Every single damn thing they do is supported by the government.

[Capitalocracy]

2. So she essentially thinks those poor rich folks are slaves and poor people are their masters?

It's just mind-boggling.

[Sherman A1]

3. As much as you would like to respond, I simply wouldn't bother

An email exchange rarely has any effect.

I have found them to just be tinkling contests until one side gives up (the other therefore being the "winner").

[Dark]

4. I stopped reading at "new world order"

She's hopeless.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

5. kick