On conspiracy thinking and mistrust of the government

[nadinbrzezinski]

Alas this latest OBL is dead, has opened yet another can of worms into this aspect of American culture. We DO NOT trust our government. It did not start with Reagan... or Hofstadter would have never written his major work on this in the 1950s. It is just there, in the background.

It doesn't help that the government at times does lie... see the major flibs of both the Gulf of Tonkin and the WMD Canard. But here we are... people on BOTH the right and the left of the political spectrum going... nope the story smells.

If it wasn't that predictable... but it is. In fact, it i a major component of who we are as a nation. And if you are to ask where does hit come from? Well apart of modern major fibs, look back all they way back to the Great Revolution... (no, not the American Revolution, hundred years before). But it is that great component of who we are and the LIBERTARIAN streak that runs across from the far right to the far left, with a few in the middle.

So yes, I guess we didn't land on the moon either.

So no, I will not make fun of this. I know where it is coming from... but I gotta recognize just how wide spread this is. Perhaps a not so healthy sign of where we are as a nation... oh and the deepening of that... yes I will thank George Bush for it. The latest fib to take the country to war was a huge one and easily provable.

The other, folks we are not exceptional nor an exceptional empire. In fact we are behaving the way empires in the terminal phase behave, and it is never pleasant to watch.

[The Magistrate]

1. 'Conspiracism', Ma'am, Reflects the Degree To Which People Feel Powerless

The more people feel they cannot influence in the slightest events in their polity and economy, the more they will be prone to believe in a mysticism of 'hidden hands' and 'dark powers' moving beneath the surface of events, directing every striking incident, and melding all opposites into a single force that only pretends to contend with itself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Absolutely

[robdogbucky]

34. And folks have a good deal of PTSD methinks

Two years ago Easter I wrote this rant in frustration. After re-reading it last week I realized how PTSD has been a factor over time:

It’s so much of it that is psyops in large part for as far back as I can remember;

Truman defeats Dewey, Yellow Peril, McCarthy, cold war warms up, Eisenhower over Stevenson, Operation Mockingbird, Sputnik, Kruschev’s shoe pounding, birth of NASA, Nixon’s Checkers speech, Camelot, Bay of Pigs operation, CIA, Operation Northwoods, Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy assassination, Oswald, Ruby, CIA, Hidden Persuaders by Vance Packard, Gulf of Tonkin incident, McNamara & Johnson’s Vietnam war escalations, War on Poverty, The New Society, King assassination, James Earl Ray, Tet Offensive, 2nd Kennedy assassination, Sirhan Sirhan, The Selling of the President 1968, Kissinger & Nixon’s Vietnam disasters, My Lai Massacre, George HW Bush heads CIA, Air America, golden triangle finds US homes, winning hearts and minds, CIA, Secret War in Cambodia, Nixon’s War on Crime, Mexican heroin epidemic, Project Intercept, Wounded Knee 2, the Martha Mitchell Effect, Watergate, national protests/public opinion shift forces end of war, Ford’s pardon, Ford’s War on Inflation, College of Americas, CIA, Carter Administration feels heat from all sides, inflation runs wild, fall of US puppet Shah, Iran Hostage crisis, Khomeini, Reagan swept into office on rightward shift of electorate, wages begin 30-year erosion, removal of Fairness Doctrine, PACs, lobbyists increase influence over both parties, deregulation, eternal tax cuts for the few begin, War on Drugs, covert wars in Central America, CIA, Ollie North, Iran-Contra/Ollie North Israeli weapons, cocaine, Lebanon barracks bombing, unquestioned US support for South Africa/apartheid, Israel/Palestinian occupation in UN votes, AIDS, homelessness, crack epidemic, Bohemian Grove, Carn-St. Germain, Savings & Loan disaster, Resolution Trust Corporation, cold war begins to end with Gdansk/Walenska, ends with collapse of Berlin Wall, Yeltsin faces down uprising, Intifada, Bush 41’s Desert Storm, Bush v Saddam, Read My Lips Loses, Black Hawk Down, 1st World Trade Center bombing, USS Cole bombing, embassy bombing, John Tower dies, Ron Brown dies, Murrah Building bombing in OKC, Ruby Ridge, Waco Branch Davidians, Contract on America, Monica’s stained dress, opposition to & interventions in Bosnia-Herzegovenia ethnic cleansing, repeal of Glass-Steagall, John Kennedy Jr. dies, Ariel Sharon “visits” Temple Mount, Intifada, 2000 Republican riot at recount in Florida, Scalia court decision in Gore v Bush, 9/11, CIA, Bush 43’s illegal wars, War on Terrorism, Strategy of Tension, permanent reinstatement of military industrial complex, transformation of surplus into deficits, disaster capitalism, shock doctrine, attack on 2-party system, consolidated media ownership, ideological cleansing of US bureaucracy and government departments, Paul Wellstone dies, “no civil wars” in middle east, “no recession,” in US, endless tax cuts planned, one party dominance planned, endless war planned for middle east, insurance, banks/Dow Jones collapse just before elections, inevitable Obama win, relentless attacks on Obama’s efforts to revive economy from 30+ years of bipartisan abuse...


Like I said I now see how it actually has been a bit of PTSD building up over a lifetime and it made me tired just to read it again. It has been an eventful half-century plus, eh?



Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky

[coalition_unwilling]

43. I think we need to define our terms precisely. Note that even the

official narrative of 9-11 posits a 'conspiracy theory' . . . of the hijackers themselves. Not all conspiracy theories, then, are created equal and all conspiracy theories (once we've agreed upon a definition) should not be handled in the same way.

The famous philosopher of science, Karl Popper, said that for any scientific hypothesis to be valid, there had to exist what he called 'falsifiability,' i.e., a set of possible conditions or data that would prove the hypothesis false.

So, too, with conspiracy theories (or 'hypotheses') of all forms, the ones that should get the most credence are those which are falsifiable. And that's where I usually run into problems with believing conspiracy theories and their proponents.There simply is no way to 'disprove' the theory to its adherents, nothing that would render the theory falsifiable in the minds of the 'true believers'.

Funny historical note (in a black humor sort of way): my Mom always told me that people dismissed the Beats, Hippies and Yippies as 'paranoid' for saying that the government was spying on them. But then, with the Watergate revelations, it turned out that the government actually had been spying on them, thereby proving Jung's maxim that paranoia represents a 'heightened state of consciousness.' :)

[dkf]

2. You don't think we just killed OBL?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I did not say that.

What I said is that the doubts you see are as American as apple pie. They are part of who we are.

I know we did... but I understand exactly where those ... doubts are coming from. And they are not exclusive to the right.... they span the whole spectrum.

[dkf]

8. I have to admit I was suspicious of Bush's efforts to protect us.

I used to entertain conspiracy theories until my brother got so far into nuttiness that I now scoff at it all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I know where it comes from

and some of those theories have a grain of truth... see WMDs and Iraq... as in nope, we are not going to war because of them. Turns out, we were right.

[dkf]

18. There were legit sources countering Bush allegations on the centrifuges.

I don't think being suspicious of motivations on Iraq are remotely conspiratorial.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. no but that is exactly the meme the media used

[dkf]

23. Well everyone has to take a look at the evidence for themselves.

[blondeatlast]

3. Two Harvard professors on conspiracy theories; it's a scholarly

but understandable paper but pretty understandable and worth the read (30 pages, I'm about halfway through):

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585

[Denninmi]

4. My opinion of distrust of the government is...

... that it is another carefully cultivated message of the far right power elite (Koch brother types). They want the population to distrust, and thereby dismantle, as much of the government as possible, so that the power elite can be free to run amok. Take "tort reform" as one of many examples -- the whole point of tort reform is to get the average person to give up as many of their rights to be made whole again after a tortious event as possible, while preserving every possible legal right of the ownership class.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Oh this is much older than the Kochs

and while the right is louder, it spans the whole spectrum.

[Distant Observer]

10. Creating "Effective Narratives" is now very much part of how POWERS in this modern media world work

Some truth is a necessary part of these narratives but not usually viewed as sufficient.

That may explain a lot of the gap between the initial "Official Story" and later stories.

I personally think Pres. Obama may have pushed for removing some of the "VARNISH" from this story quicker than it usually happens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. The gap is easier to explain than that

it is called debriefings. As they debrief each seal they get different stories.

Serious... their mistake was going on with the early debriefs.

[Distant Observer]

16. Not really. Ex CIA Baer noted that 1st Story was standard "package," He approved

It had all the elements -- made US action sound even more heroic and OBL seem despicable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. And it also had all the elements

of an early debrief...

So be it...

[The Magistrate]

19. It Also had the Elements, Ma'am, Of People Without Much Actual Knowledge Showing Off

A lot of the 'official' initial stories seem to have actually been 'leaks', rather than official statements. Between the people with tame reporters on call, and reporters with 'anonymous insiders' on call, it is hard to see a limit to the possibilities for fiction, with people filling in the blanks around one or two juicy tit-bits....

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Too true

[pipi_k]

20. That's the problem

with more than one person witnessing/being part of an event at the same time...

each person is going to have a different account/perspective on what happened.

Especially something as chaotic as what must have happened that day.


Then ignorant people decide that none of it is true because everyone involved saw the events a different way.

[stockholmer]

13. distrust of power,& an ability to recognize the meta-systemic memes of its structural control is NOT

'conspiracy theory'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. most of the people engaged in real conspiracy theories

see, we didn't land men on the moon, are not looking at the meta aspects of control.

Those meta aspects are well beyond this discussion even if as an aside, they are useful to those who control the curtains.

[stockholmer]

25. agreed, and the term 'conspiracy theory' has become a hammer(due to linkage with rot as you suggest)

wielded to prevent any deep analysis that attempts to rip back said curtain.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. My distrust of believing everything the govt has to do with one thing..EXPERIENCE.

I am 59 years old and have discovered the government lying time and again. Cover-ups, not following up on grievous crimes, causing coups in other countries. Creating propaganda to push their case for war. And so forth and so on.....

Know what though, I'm tired and just don't care anymore. They've worn me down as I know that as long as we have ineffective leaders who suck at the tit of the corporate overlords, I am helpless to do anything.

I think I just want to enjoy this lovely spring day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Why I mentioned Tonkin and the WMDs

there are good reasons for it. But they don't lie about everything... if we think that... then why bother having government?

Also my view... they don't lie any more than companies. Human groups tend to do that to protect interests. But we did land on the moon and in this case kill this man.

[fivepennies]

35. I've got you beat by a few years

and had the added misfortune of reading too many obscure and unapproved writings while I was still young enough that skepticism and flat out disgust set in early for me. The only reason I don't recommend knowing too much about the cover-ups, fables and grievous crimes of the past that have bled into current cultural mythology through repetition (propaganda) is that its so destructive to friendships. And yeah, knowing there's nothing one can do about it wears you down to the nub after a while.

And to top it all off, it was 100 degrees here in the desert today so getting hot under the collar takes on a whole different meaning.

[canoeist52]

15. Groups of people pool their resources

to create lies which benefit the group and bring in more resources. Pretty soon the group has enough resources to own the governing system. Groups DO "conspire" for their personal gain. I always ask, "Who benefits?", before I believe.

I don't want to get rid of Government. I want money not to run it. I want Government to do it's job of regulating and reigning in the unfair practices of the lying monied class.

[robdogbucky]

26. I met Dick Gregory once

when I was tending bar in about 1979 in an airport departure lounge and he was waiting to catch a flight. I got his autograph because I had always admired his comedy, and mostly his work on behalf of civil rights, the fastings, etc., and the risks he took when he didn't have to, for his principles. It was then later when I learned that Dick Gregory does not believe in the mooon landings by the US astronauts.

I was gobsmacked that someone of such experience and intelligence could not believe in our space program reaching the moon. I had personally met Capt. Eugene Cernan, the last moon walker, one day when he thought he recognized me as someone he knew from Los Angeles. I told him he was mistaken, that I had never lived in LA and I just wanted to shake his hand, as someone (the last US astronaut to do so, in 1972) that had walked on the mooon. I was very impressed by him and meeting him like that made my hair stand on end.

Later, sometime in the early 2000s, I was on my way fishing in the early summer, when the sun rises between 5 and 6AM, and I had heard on the radio while driving up to the lake in the mountains, that a space shuttle flight was due to make its final orbit on approach to land in Florida, to cross very near to where I was heading in Northern Cal. At just the right moment, per the radio, I stopped my vehicle, and got out to watch the sky to the southwest, where the approach was to come from. It was light but just barely, and the sky was a pale blue. Then, just as if in a movie, the damn thing became visible, rather low in the sky to my way of thinking and sure enough, it was the space shuttle. The sunlight glinted off of it and I could clearly see its shape and follow its path across the sky.

Not that I was a doubter about the US space program, but right then it all came together for me. I had never personally witnessed a launch, etc. and I was glad to have seen it, glad to have been mistaken for someone else by Cernan, a moon walker, and I was wishing I could have had Dick Gregory that morning up near Lake Davis, to see what I saw. I will never forget the feeling of actually seeing the shuttle that close in the sky.

I admire Dick Gregory, but this just points out that otherwise stable, intelligent, down to earth people, can have such unorthodox beliefs. He left me a nice tip by the way, and he drank Black Russians.


Just my dos centavos

robdogbucky

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I love DU, I learned about another person to admire

to a point.. I had to google up who Gregory was...

Thank you

[noise]

28. False equivalency

Fake moon landings are the equivalent of questioning the government in regard to Bin Laden or al Qaeda?

During the Bush years the false choice for a "patriotic" citizen was between Bush or Bin Laden. After all to question any aspect of the Bush administration's war on terror conduct was tantamount to being a Bin Laden sympathizer.

Now we have a fun new game. Obama or Bin Laden. The new rule deems that anyone who questions the Obama administration's war on terror conduct is a birther sympathizing conspiracy nut who may or may not be a Bin Laden sympathizer.

What have the Bush or Obama administrations done to earn unconditional trust to the point where skepticism or dissent is considered worthy of ridicule?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. I question the war on terror and the war on drugs

Eternal war is not good. But in this particular case they did bag him. To think otherwise is truly like the moon landings are fake.

You and I might question whether it was a good idea to kill him. (I don't think they could get him alive and the reasons are legion) but to question that this mas was killed this week... Sorry if I don't drink from that kook aid.

[noise]

31. It does look like he was killed

but there are several questions.

1)What is with this secrecy sickness? I get operational security but the BS we have seen from the government since 9/11 is absurd. Information release has been manipulated in order to exploit the public. That isn't indicative of good faith.

2)How was Bin Laden living in that compound undetected? Can someone from the US or Pakistani government tell the truth for once instead of the stupid back and forth accusations?

3)What is the true capability of al Qaeda? We have never gotten an honest answer to this question from anyone in the US government. Instead we get secrecy, propaganda and fearmongering. For example we still haven't gotten a credible explanation for the failure of US intelligence to apprehend al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar. Years of secrecy have not made this issue go away. For sure many people no longer care because "there are more important issues to worry about." Sorry but I don't buy this. We still have all the post 9/11 legislation. The occupations. The lack of accountability. The secrecy. Authoritarian faith in government officials is not an acceptable standard for a representative democracy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Answers

but there are several questions.

1)What is with this secrecy sickness? I get operational security but the BS we have seen from the government since 9/11 is absurd. Information release has been manipulated in order to exploit the public. That isn't indicative of good faith.

They are treating this like WW II. It is the same level of secrecy.

2)How was Bin Laden living in that compound undetected? Can someone from the US or Pakistani government tell the truth for once instead of the stupid back and forth accusations?

He wasn't but they cannot go beyond this theater due to a few nukes.

3)What is the true capability of al Qaeda? We have never gotten an honest answer to this question from anyone in the US government. Instead we get secrecy, propaganda and fearmongering. For example we still haven't gotten a credible explanation for the failure of US intelligence to apprehend al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar. Years of secrecy have not made this issue go away. For sure many people no longer care because "there are more important issues to worry about." Sorry but I don't buy this. We still have all the post 9/11 legislation. The occupations. The lack of accountability. The secrecy. Authoritarian faith in government officials is not an acceptable standard for a representative democracy.

The true capacities are like those of the IRA at it's best moment, they actually have hinted to this, in hearings and scholarly papers. It is a franchise operation and some franchises are more capable than others. AQ itself, 2000 people best case.

It should have been treated with the proper secrecy...as a police operation. That is the dang truth.

[Johonny]

29. conspiracy makes money these days

there is gold in those crazy theories. Thus any event someone thinks they can turn a dime on disbelieving (and almost anything political these days has some billionaire willing to invest) will attract the usual gang of conspiracy spinners. It always seems to amaze the same people can go to the same dry well and pump money out of it :)

[steve2470]

33. From what I've read, the distrust of government really got fired up after Kennedy was assasinated

Then came Vietnam. Before 1963, it seems most of the country trusted the government's "word".

[Art_from_Ark]

36. I think most of the country still trusted the government's "word"

during the Vietnam era. I think the revelations about Watergate were the turning point toward cynicism.

[steve2470]

37. Yes, Watergate was very pivotal. I came of age at that time of cynicism nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Most of the country STILL trusts the government

the number of people that don't is higher though thanks to Watergate, Tonkin and yes the lies leading to the Iraq war.

[johnnie]

38. I get accused of being a conspiracy theorist all the time

There are some things I question and some I don't. But it blows my mind that so many people will fall for whatever the "official" story is.

The lead up to the Iraq war was a conspiracy in my opinion. Would you anti-conspiracy people agree or did you fall for the WMD bullshit too?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. It was a conspiracy in the LEGAL sense of the word

I just pointed out to an ASPECT of US Culture, and yes I did use the WMD canard as an example of a lie.

But our lack of trust (collectively mind you) goes back to Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution.

[DeadEyeDyck]

39. Okay, oaky I admit it

It was me on the Grassy Knoll. I was playing hooky and that is why I never came forward until now. Please don't tell my mom.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Ok that was funny

Now if we tell your mom, will she believe us?