The murderer George Bush has killed a thousand-fold more than OBL could even conceive of.

[Hannah Bell]

Nine years into the eternal war on terror it still sickens me that he got away with it.

And that americans accepted it.

I hate that fucker.

[sabrina 1]

1. Yes, he did, innocent people, men women and children.

I wonder what all those who support our new policy of summary execution without trial or even charges, just send in a commando team, would think if the Iraqis did the same thing, sent in a team of killers to get the man who killed so many of their citizens?? Wouldn't they be justified to do so and what could we say about it? Admonish them for not giving the benefit of a trial?

Each time we act in a lawless manner, we set this country up to be treated the same way, under the same rules we have established.

[PuffedMica]

2. Bush's two wars are still in progress

Still killing Innocent civilians.

[Hannah Bell]

3. yes. though you'd never know it for all we hear of it. and third war on the way.

[originalpckelly]

13. Make if fourth if we decide to something about the fact that Pakistan was harboring Osama.

[cali]

4. I think this kind of comparison is spurious

[Hannah Bell]

5. too bad.

[readmoreoften]

80. +1

[aquart]

7. The qualitative difference in the dead would be?

And Bush himself elevated al qaida to a nation state and bin Ladin to a head of state. That makes them equals and the comparison fair.

[cali]

10. that it's a spurious comparison has nothing to do with

the number of dead. Nor do I think bush is any less destructive or horrific than bin-Laden.

[originalpckelly]

16. What, do the people who died in Iraq and Afghanistan not count as Americans?

That's the only way you could dismiss this truth, and it is true, per the official war dead statistics.
We're going to send people off to die, so people don't die.
That's what we do, it's the most insane bullshit to ever present itself in the history of the world.

It shows that it's not about harm reduction, but revenge.

Well, revenge is satisfying to those people who don't lose their relatives because of it, but there will only more mommies and daddies absent from the holidays because this nation's actions, not fewer.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[originalpckelly]

30. If you solely look at the number people who are no longer alive...

Bush is responsible for more Americans dying than Osama.

How is that not the truth?

Are those people less dead than those who died on 9/11?

[Harmony Blue]

23. The problem is

when you start equating Bush's crimes to Bin Ladens, or even suggesting that he surpassed him, the vast majority of Americans will tune you out. As a result, Bush will escape with the crimes he did commit. Using extreme hyperbole has never made anyone change their stance on an issue. It requires rational thought, and explanation.

"Bush worse than Bin Laden" is a statement of opinion, which I find childish to be honest.

Bush is responsible for the killing of many civilians, whether you believe directly, or indirectly. Bin Laden is responsible for planned murders of many civilians. Murder is not on the same level as killing.

[originalpckelly]

31. So, if I "kill" a billion people on accident, that's not worse than "murdering" one person?

The problem, is that dead is dead.

[Harmony Blue]

36. No

Murder is on another level than killing.

Every single culture on earth known to humanity makes a distinction between killing and murder.

[originalpckelly]

40. I guess the real question is: Do you want to keep Americans from dying...

Or do you want to play out your feeling of revenge and hatred?

[Hannah Bell]

64. i'm not talking to the "majority of americans" i'm talking to du.

bush initiated wars on the basis of lies *knowing* people/americans/iraqis would die. that's planning.

& i don't think it's clear that obl planned 911.

[readmoreoften]

81. You seem to have a new definition of hyperbole. Not something that is an exaggeration but rather

something that just sounds bad. You have no defense against the argument that equates Bush's crimes to Bin Laden's other than the fact that it will be unpopular. Bush knowingly waged wage on an entire nation for profit, revenge, power, and sport. That's hundreds of thousands of dead and displaced people. They are all civilians. A planned terrorist bombing for power and revenge is not worse than the murder of hundreds of thousands for power and revenge. Bush's reasons are similar and his death count is higher. Popular or unpopular is irrelevant. He's drunk in a mansion in Dallas right now.

[originalpckelly]

12. The wars since 9/11 have killed more Americans than died on 9/11.

Don't you find something strange about that?

[woo me with science]

54. And more people die on the highways every year than in 9/11.

So I guess the car companies are the evillest of all.

[Occulus]

55. Yes, because auto companies are ordering other drivers to cause accidents

:argh:

[originalpckelly]

65. ^^^What Occulus said^^^

Well said.

[aquart]

6. I hate the people who let him get away.

[themadstork]

8. Reading more and more about the CIA torture programme,

I would suggest that Americans never fucking ever try to present themselves as the good guy w/r/t cruelty, torture, and the capacity to nonchalantly destroy lives.

We kill dozens of innocent Pakistanis on a whim weekly. Yet next time a terrorist bomb kills a handful of Americans it will be OMGWTF from all corners of the country.

[originalpckelly]

15. Say what you want about al-Qaeda, but the US Government has got them beat at killing Americans.

Vietnam, Korea, neglect of our people in favor of war, Iraq, Afghanistan, and most astonishingly, when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we actually killed more American citizens than the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor. Almost 700 more than the Japanese.

Violence is a quicksand that we seem not be able to get out of.

The ship of state is sinking, and all we are doing is pumping water into it, rather than pumping water out.

[masmdu]

57. ***** *****BULL...Prove this statement ******* ************ ********* *************************

I'm willing to admit that I may be ignorant of the facts but I'm fairly certain I am not.

You claim that the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima resulted in the death of almost 700 more Americans than the attack at Pearl Harbor.

Provide a link please. I know of only one American there (Nagasaki)American POW, Joe Kieyoomia and he survived the attack.

[masmdu]

58. ....(waiting).....

[masmdu]

59. ....(waiting).....

[masmdu]

62. ...... (waiting)...... (ok, maybe you are otherwise occupied now, but I'd appreciate a response)

[originalpckelly]

75. Are Americans only POWs or American citizens?

Because I think most people today would consider people who are American citizens to be Americans, right?

At most, 3,200 Japanese Americans (Japanese heritage, American citizenship) were killed by the bombs.
"The Committee for the Compilation of Materials on Damage caused by the Atomic Bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki ‘Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The Physical, Medical, and Social Effects of the Atomic Bombings’ London 1981 in L. Freedman and S. Dockrill"

[masmdu]

77. BULLSHIT...I've read the report you reference and No. 3200 Japanese Americans were not killed

by the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Admitedly it has been years since I have read the report but I am quite sure I'd remember such a piece of information.

Can you provide a link?

[DCKit]

9. And that's why, when it's all said and done, OBL won. On so many fronts. nt

[originalpckelly]

11. You do realize that all of this was literally Osama's plan.

He wanted to cause us to enter a long quagmire that would drain us economically and cause a collapse of the economy. It's the same plan used against the USSR, and it worked very well there.

He may be dead, but we just played right into his plan. We're a bunch of fucking dumb asses.

[themadstork]

22. Yes. Why is this not mentioned more?

The neoconservarive response has always been exactly according to their plan. They want us to torture, drone bomb, indefintely imprison, wage senseless wars, violate small children at airports, etc.

There's a large contingent of Americans who support torture and will argue strenuously for it. And THAT is exactly as they'd have it. We practically do their PR work for them.

[Hannah Bell]

66. you don't know anything about osama's plans, don't pretend you do.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marblehead]

17. not to mention

5 million Iraqi refugees. Women and children

[OwnedByFerrets]

18. Huge K AND R

[chrisa]

19. Are you really saying Bush was worse than Bin Laden?

[originalpckelly]

26. Who is responsible for killing more Americans?

A. George Bush
B. Osama Bin Laden

It's not like Osama flew the planes into the WTC, the Pentagon, and the ground at Shanksville, right?

No.

So he's culpable for the attacks in an indirect way, for planning, right? For ordering them?

That's the same damn thing Bush did. He knew Americans would die in these wars, that may not have been his goal, but his gross negligence is almost as bad as Osama's intent to kill.
The result was at least the same, wasn't it? In fact, Bushes policies lead to the deaths of more Americans than Osama's intentions to kill Americans.
At what point to we see that our own system of government is doing more harm to us than a man who purposefully tried to kill Americans?
Even if it's just incompetence, it doesn't matter, those soldiers are just as dead and mattered just as much as the civilians who died on 9/11.

Is the life of a civilian worth more than that of a soldier?

You have to believe that.

By the numbers:
Bushes wars in Iraq and Afghanistan:
To date 1,486 Americans have died in Afghanistan
To date 4,432 Americans have died in Iraq
Together that's 5,918

al-Qaeda's attack on 9/11: 2,981

In other words, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have killed almost twice as many Americans than died on 9/11.

That is the truth. You cannot deny that.

Osama wanted to kill Americans, but Bush is responsible for more Americans dying than the guy whose goal was just to kill as many Americans as possible.

[chrisa]

38. That's bad logic

So, since FDR got Americans killed in WWII, was he a terrorist as well? By your logic, FDR was a bigger terrorist than Bin Laden because he sent Americans to war knowing they would be killed.

When did Bush ever encourage Americans to go and murder women and children, and then brag about it? When did he ever lead an oppressive, corrupt regime that existed solely to push a brutal, extremist version of a religion that is practically to the point of being a cult? When did Bush lead a regime that taught that women are to be treated worse than wild animals, and that hitting them or killing them is the best way to maintain your status in the community?

Bad leadership is not the same as being a homicidal maniac.

[sabrina 1]

71. Germany declared war on the US. Did Iraq or Afghanistan,

or Pakistan declare war on the US?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. Your numbers are right, but the "thousand fold" comment in the OP was specious

[originalpckelly]

53. Yeah, that was bad math.

But if you count the number of civilians killed during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, then you will get a much higher kill ratio.

[Hannah Bell]

67. not when you include afghanis, iraqis, & the miscellaneous others the us killed during the bush

reign.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

76. So how many deaths are you attributing to Bush II?

[sufrommich]

20. This is one of those posts that make me think the left in this

country will be forever twiddling their thumbs on the sideline of American politics. Absolutely tone deaf.

[originalpckelly]

21. This is one of those posts that shows what's wrong with this country.

We'll never admit when we do something horrible. Even 50 years later, they couldn't even agree that what we did to the Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrible. They just couldn't. So they had to cancel the exhibit that was supposed to surround the Enola Gay in '95.

Yes, the Japanese exacted horrors on this world, but so did we.
And this nation continues to do it, it's not as if it something that happened in the past. It continues to this day.
We live in a nation that could destroy the entire human race, or at the very least, come damn close to it.
If absolute power corrupts absolutely, what does that power do?

[Harmony Blue]

25. Many people in this thread

need to learn the difference between murder and killing.

Here is an example, which I am sure will spark some debate:

If Bin Laden did not resist at all, and he was still shot, that can fall under the definition of murder. Now, if Bin Laden used a shield, disobeyed commands, or made a run for it, but was then shot then he was killed.

Murder =/= killing

[originalpckelly]

29. Oh, terribly sorry.

I didn't know that.

So these people who were killed, they aren't as dead as the people who were murdered?

[Harmony Blue]

37. People can die of natural causes

but are still dead too.

There is a reason why we are nation of laws and we make a distinction between murder and killing like any civilized nation in the world. Furthermore, we will never bring Bush to justice if we label him a murderer. His crimes are for killing many civilians with his authorized Shock and Awe bombing campaign, and what followed afterword. If there is proof that the Shock and Awe bombing campaign purposefully targeted civilians, then it would be called murder.

This is why I would have preferred Bin Laden to be captured alive, and brought to trial.

[originalpckelly]

44. And we also have laws about gross incompetence too, don't we?

Especially when people are killed as a result of it.

And at some point, when that incompetence is so bad, that it is twice the number of people who die in an act where the perpetrators intended to kill as many people as possible, that incompetence should be punished harshly. As in, four walls, bars, crappy bed, visitation every three months, and shitsink for rest of life harshly.

[Harmony Blue]

48. Yes, but we do not call them murderers

This is why Bush will never be convicted of his crimes if we use hyperbole to explain our position.

[Hannah Bell]

68. he's a murderer.

[dionysus]

27. could you just imagine, if obama or a prominent elected democrat went on TV and said that.

"well, we got bin laden, but bush was even worse!!"

if DU were running things, they could make the democratic party unelectable within a day.

that said, someone anonymous saying this on a message board isn't going to do much damage. however, i'd never send an on the fence voter to some of these threads.

[sufrommich]

28. No, I can't imagine. The democratic party would be as

unelectable as the people who spout this crap are and will always be.

[Solomon]

32. It almost is anyway, what with the continual snatching of defeat

from the jaws of victory.

[sufrommich]

33. Sure it is.

:eyes:

[quinnox]

34. Do you dispute the facts?

So you are saying Bush didn't kill more than bin Laden? I'm not seeing your objection, was Bush really a good guy at heart or something so his kills don't count because the righteous USA is the "force for good"?

I'm trying to understand your objection here.

[sufrommich]

35. My point is that comparing an American president, any

American president, to the terrorist responsible for 9/11 is an incredibly tone deaf position and that leftists shoot themselves in the foot every time they spew crap like this. Or are you of the opinion that the American people are on the cusp of embracing this position? Was Bush really a good guy at heart? No. Do you ever wonder why the right wing gets away with painting the left as anti American?

[quinnox]

39. huh, well, I really don't care what the right wingers think

I think the truth is the most important thing, who cares about the politics about it, and anyway where on a message board too. Its not like we are making political speeches with our comments, this is a board for those on the left, so I'm comfortable speaking the truth here.

If that makes the right wingers angry, all the better. They can't handle the truth anyway.

You may have a point if this was an official Democratic party board, but its not. Its a notable board for leftists, but not all that important what we say in the final analysis. My opinion.

[sufrommich]

41. Who said anything about right wingers? I also don't care if you

think DU is a "notable board for leftist" either, it's also a board for democrats, the majority of whom I would be willing to bet, greatly disagree with comparing a president to a terrorist.

[originalpckelly]

46. The problem is that you'd let them define what is American.

[sufrommich]

47. I don't "allow "the right or the left to define what is American. nt

[Hannah Bell]

69. i'm not talking to "the american people". i'm talking to people on a discussion board.

bush murdered more people than obl ever conceived of doing.

[readmoreoften]

83. So you're not saying it's false. You're just saying it's bad spin.

Why would you care about how the right paints "the left"? Clearly you'd rather do business with thugs who lie well then with people who speak the clear and unpopular truth. And let me tell you, it's a lot more popular of a truth than you think.

[Harmony Blue]

42. Bush did kill more than Bin Laden

But the opening post calls Bush a murder as well, which I object to. Bin Laden allegedly was a co-conspirator that led to the murder of 3,000+ Americans, so Bin Laden murdered more people than Bush ever did. In addition, there have been past President's that have done more killing than Bush did in the past, including Democratic Presidents, and the current President Obama.

If you label Bush a killer, by definition you must label ALL U.S. Presidents killers. The difference is how that killing took place, and why Bush's crimes are seen differently from other Presidents.

[sufrommich]

45. I agree. Abraham Lincoln, mass murderer. nt

[Hannah Bell]

70. here's the difference: bush's wars were undertaken under false pretenses, on the

basis of lies.

[quinnox]

49. Yea, most US presidents are killers

I think there may have been a few that didn't have wars and had peace time, but most of them did kill people sooner or later by using the military.
I don't have a problem with labeling them that, its the truth.

[readmoreoften]

84. Did all US presidents invade countries for profit with no ostensible provocation?

Like Iraq? Murder. Murder for personal profit, at that. Let's just call things what they are for a change.

[sabrina 1]

72. You think it's only the 'left' in this country that abhors

America's brutal foreign policies? Did you agree with George Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq then? Do you agree with the torture policies of the US?

Frankly, what Americans think is not very relevant anymore. The Arab uprisings, ousting our allies, which invariably are brutal dictators, demonstrated what a large protion of the world thinks of US policies. The ousting of US backed regimes in Latin America is another example of how the world is changing, moving on from the US and its foreign policies. The US is now viewed as the biggest threat to world peace around the globe.

OBL was irrelevant to most of the world's population, especially to those this government CLAIMED he was a hero to, as the Arab uprisings have made clear. The only part of the world that remains obsessed with the Al Queda 'threat' is apparently the US where the propaganda of fear made them far more important than they ever were.

OBL's biggest victory was exactly this. He got what he wanted, America mired down in costly wars, as he said was his goal, and losing its standing and therefore its power in the world.

Any true American patriot would never have handed him this victory. You can kill a human being, but you cannot kill an idea. The only way to kill an idea, is NOT to emulate it, as we have done, using brutality to combat brutality eg, the only way is with a BETTER IDEA. So far, we have failed fantastically to combat OBL's strategy by dancing to HIS tune, instead of rising above it.

Most of the countries now in the midst of great change, like Egypt eg, do not want the US involved in their affairs.

We need new ideas, these old, cold war murderous, bloodthirsty 'solutions' are doing to this country exactly what OBL predicted, bankrupting it, not just monetarily, but morally.

We need to be rescued. But who will stand up and do that? I hope it happens soon, because while we continue to drop bombs on other countries, the rest of the world is moving on, China is making deals for oil and other resources rather than bankrupting itself by invading oil rich countries. Our policies, aside from the morality or lack of it, are just plain stupid and in the end, are harming us far more than those we claim are our enemies. Arab youth do NOT revere OBL. They revere the tortured and murdered young men who tried to stand up to OUR ALLIES, their oppressive regimes. Those, a fruit vendor in Tunisia and a young reporter in Egypt, beaten to death by our ally's security police, are the heroes of the Arab world. And while America's youth are apparently 'okay with torture', the youth of these nations, in N.Africa, the ME, Latin America, are fighting and some have succeeded to dismantle their regimes policies of torture and oppression.

We are lost and we are being left behind and we are very small % of the world's population. Our only advantage was our moral authority and we have lost that in the foolish pursuit of a small, extremist group of radicals that were never viewed as heroes anywhere, except in the wild imaginations of terrified Americans.

So, what are we fighting for again?

[readmoreoften]

82. And your post reminds me that the centrists care more about "tone" than "truth"

and that's why you only accomplish maintaining the Republicans' status quo while allowing them to move further to the right.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

43. Yes and all the pearl clutching in this thread is sad. nt

[Yo_Mama]

50. Well Obama has stepped up the attacks even more....

More bombings. Bombings in Libya and Yemen and Pakistan.

So if you think Bush did wrong you should also be saying the same of Obama.

I don't know what to think, myself.

[coalition_unwilling]

51. So did Kissinger. For civilian casualties, it seems to me like

Bush and Kissinger\Nixon occupy a special tier in American history. Each (Bush and Kissinger) escaped the consequences of their murderous behavior (at least in this lifetime).

K&R!

[Pisces]

56. This is an unhinged statement. I never agreed with the war but this is too much.

[sabrina 1]

73. Well, you're not an Iraq mother whose babies

were blown to bits by a foreign invader. I would think that it is their opinions, being the victims of the illegal invasion, that matter to the rest of the world.

Can you explain why America feels it has the right to get revenge when it has been wrongfully attacked, but Iraqis, eg, should not feel the same way?

We have set a standard now. If someone harms your citizens and/or your country, you have the right to kill as many people, even those who had nothing to do with it, who never theatened you, as you like.

Explain why other countries, like Iraq eg, whose country and citizens were the victims of far more harm, should not use these same standards to get 'closure' for their grieving citizens?

[GeorgeGist]

60. He got away with it because Obama let him.

[G_j]

61. why does Obama think we can share a moment of national pride now?

Pride???

it will be to our everlasting shame that Bush war crimes were never even investigated.

[Distant Observer]

63. Hannah, why blame BUSH particularly? His action was part of a system of Elite (Western) Domination

and Entitlement that in place for a while now.

[Zorra]

74. This is undeniably true. nt

[Mnemosyne]

78. One of the few 'people' truly deserving. K&R n/t

[autorank]

79. 1 million dead Iraqis due to civil strife caused by the 2003 invasion

Bush II death toll is stunning, not Pol Pot numbers, mind you, but way up there. What an animal.

[Alamuti Lotus]

85. well said; and the sacred p'outrage on display in reply is just precious..