Digby: 60% of US Teens Believe Torture Is OK

[marmar]

Shocking: 60% of US Teens Believe Torture Is OK


MSNBC just did a story on something that I had wondered about as well --- why were so many big celebrations after the announcement of bin Laden's death particularly raucous among college students around the country? They showed footage of various campuses and interviewed a couple of the students who explained that they were in the 6th grade when it happened and were just thrilled that it was finally over and that justice was finally done. It was truly a huge, patriotic moment for them.

I realized that the "War on Terror" has been going on for half their lives, so it seems like forever to them. And it reminded me just how much the zeitgest of the moment is "reality" when you are young. The GWOT and the militarization of America is just the way the world is to young people today. Which is probably why they also believe in this:

A new study by the American Red Cross obtained exclusively by The Daily Beast found that a surprising majority—almost 60 percent—of American teenagers thought things like water-boarding or sleep deprivation are sometimes acceptable. More than half also approved of killing captured enemies in cases where the enemy had killed Americans. When asked about the reverse, 41 percent thought it was permissible for American troops to be tortured overseas. In all cases, young people showed themselves to be significantly more in favor of torture than older adults.

Torture has been around as long as there have been wars, but media coverage of enhanced interrogation techniques has risen the visibility of torture since the attacks of September 11. Could the generation who came of age since the towers fell have a different notion of what’s acceptable in a time of war? “Over the past 10 years, they’ve been exposed to many new conflicts,” says Isabelle Daoust, who heads ARC’s humanitarian law unit. “But they haven’t been exposed to the rules.” ..............(more)

.............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/578084/shocking%3A_60_of_us_teens_believe_torture_is_ok/

[Bonobo]

THAT is the longest surviving legacy of OBL.

Not the Towers which the US still has not been able to rebuild.

It is the death of the image of the US as the good guy, both from within and from without.

[Angry Dragon]

5. It is a legacy of bush

Perhaps if we did not try to overthrow so many countries the world would have less terrorists armed by the US

[freshwest]

9. With every GOP figure sanctioning it and FOX's '24' on the air, what do we expect?

Not only that, numerous movies, video games and programs acting as if brutalizing people is admirable, if they are seen as inferior or a threat. Even some evangelical churches said it was okay. Everything is okay, if it's for 'national security.'

Our morals and sense of decency and tolerance for differences are long gone. Look at this cesspool they grew up in. Anything seen as kind or humane is considered a weakness, anything not perfect or profitable isn't deemed worthy to live.

We don't have the moral standing to begin to change the media culture when we won't prosecute those responsible. They bred a mindset to get people to go and invade other countries for money.

I don't know how to turn the tide back. It might take another generation, but by that time, will there be anyone still left to teach that things were ever any different than this?

[Angry Dragon]

10. Maybe it is too late for this country........

[coalition_unwilling]

67. Wow. So eloquent and so true. I wish I could rec your response. Thanks - n/t

[freshwest]

108. Thank you very much. I'm sure I'll get flamed any minute...

[Amonester]

71. I also blamed the movie and video games industries in my mind.

While reading the OP.

Where all this 'torture works' nonsense will lead humanity I too often ask myself.

[provis99]

82. might as well blame heavy metal music while you're at it.

Works for the Christian fundamentalists.

[pot]

94. Yeah its all the videogames fault I tell ya! /sarcasm

[Arkansas Granny]

91. You are absolutely right. They have been desensitized to the violence and many feel

that violence is acceptable behavior in many circumstances. If their heroes and role models are violent, what do we expect of them?

[RZM]

130. Fascination with violence isn't a new thing

Nor is it unique to the US.

[themadstork]

138. Have they really been desensitized to violence?

Or merely to fictional violence?

I play the occasional shooter and that has not changed my views on actual violence, or my gut-reaction to how scary it is.

When I'm walking through the mall I manage to not confuse it with the Locust stronghold. Somehow.

[FiveGoodMen]

154. Remember the leaked video/audio of US troops begging to take out the civilians

on the ground below?

Do you really think they know the difference between ficional and real anymore?

[JonLP24]

155. Troops went off the deep end in Vietnam

I have no doubts some soldiers/units went off the deep end in most wars. I think it is a result of war messing you up mentally. I know it did with me but I didn't go off the deep end.

[drokhole]

93. +1000 A damn fine post! nt

[Cal33]

104. And teenagers are the future of our country! The GOP and their propaganda media

are turning our nation into the most aggressive and sadistic people on earth.
It's sickening!

[mountainlion55]

118. 100% Agree

Just walk by your local H.S. and see how many kid are dressed in ROTC uniforms and junior CEO suits.:smoke:

[WinkyDink]

122. Only GOP?

[Uncle Joe]

112. And the corporate media propaganda machine, it is they that program in one fashion or another how

all the ticking bombs were defused and innocent people's lives were saved because some "hero" had to torture some "villain" in order to get critical information in a timely manner.

I have no doubt the Hitler Youth were brainwashed as well to believe that torture was necessary while their adversaries/enemies were demonized.

In this sense the U.S. has become what historically it claimed to hate the most.

[roody]

128. +1

[Enthusiast]

134. You are right.

It is the Bush legacy. And now the U.S. wears the black hat.

[readmoreoften]

148. And the legacy of Obama. He owns it now.

[russspeakeasy]

162. Thanks, Dragon

[Matt Shapiro]

166. True, but it is also the legacy of Obama, who has refused

to prosecute the torturers or those who ordered it or those who provided false "legal" support for it.

[RZM]

129. To be fair, the idea of the US being a 'bad guy' goes back a long way before 9/11

I think it did get a boost after the invasion of Iraq, but I wonder how much of one. It seems to me that many people have added post-9/11 US foreign policy actions to an already existing 'jacket' of misdeeds, rather than creating a new folder, if you will.

[dkf]

1. Too much 24.

[renegade000]

6. indeed

The fantastical narrative of having to torture someone to obtain vital information to save thousands of lives at the 11th hour is one that unfortunately people don't seem to apply much critical thinking to.

[dkf]

11. Well it is about a 24 hour period, not about years and years of painstaking detection.

[NashVegas]

13. Yes, and "Taken"

Once I saw that movie I lost a lot of respect I had for Liam Neeson, for associating with that little piece of torture porn.

[JonLP24]

40. Not sure why

The movie is fiction.

Doesn't necessarily mean the actor agrees with the character. I think of Clint Eastwood when he was criticized for the ending of Million Dollar Baby he said, "I've gone around in movies blowing people away with a .44 magnum. But that doesn't mean I think that's a proper thing to do".

[coalition_unwilling]

68. The clintessential Clint Eastwood movie, imho, is "Unforgiven". Not

sure the genre of the Western remained standing after Eastwood finished it off.

Eastwood also famously bitch-slapped right wingers who were trying to suppress dissent by saying 'Freedom of speech is the American way" but, for the life of me, I cannot find the citation or the occasion for his comment.

[NashVegas]

85. Dirty Harry Wasn't Propaganda, AFAIK

And the character's use of violence was also treated to a decent amount of criticism. The Dirty Harry movies - and most of Eastwood's violent films - are actually thoughtful. Taken was nothing more than a popcorn movie with exploited women and black ops.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

97. Glad to know I wasn't the only one who was annoyed by that movie.

While others saw, "Look how badass Liam Neeson is!", I saw "So Liam Neeson finds it necessary to shoot a guy's wife to get what he wants? Really?"

[Cid_B]

136. Really?

You wouldn't shoot someone in the arm to save your daughter?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

140. That situation was so Hollywood BS ridiculous, but even in that context, no....

....not someone who had no involvement with her kidnapping, as the movie presented itself. From what I remember of that dumb movie, he went to confront the French policeman, who apparently was being bribed to keep his mouth shut, and he decided to make him talk by shooting his wife, who was not involved in anything from what I remember.

Just a stupid, stupid movie.

[JVS]

48. Too much US policy

[Whisp]

157. and Saw 24 coming out soon.

so much and too much of this shit out there, it sure can't do any good.
people claim it does no harm, but what good does it do?

[regnaD kciN]

2. The next demographic wave of young voters...

:scared:

[Leopolds Ghost]

41. Just spend a lot of time on Youtube and you will "weap" for the future of humanity.

And most of the people doing the "fuck yeah let's rape and kill sum hajjis111!! fuckin A gobbledygook 133tspeek" are students... They won't grow up to be any nicer, merely more civilized as they learn how they're expected to behave at their high paying workplace. They'll kick back on the weekends. Time for a little of the ol' ultraviolence...

[coalition_unwilling]

69. They certainly won't enlist. They'll leave that dirty work to the white trash,

sp**cs and n**gg**s. Oh, they might be officers but, if so, I'm sure they'll be REMFs (Rear echelon mother fuckers).

[antigone382]

111. Yes, that's exactly the makeup of the younger generation.

If you think a collection of youtube responses is a valid sample of the mindset of young people, then you need to take a sociology course, or maybe hang out with some young people and try to understand what they're actually all about. No age group is a monolith. There are plenty of ignorant as well as thoughtful comments put out by people of any generation visible on facebook, various news sites, and even DU. My life is rich with thoughtful, helpful, hard-working young people who don't deserve to be systematically maligned based on a single poll or a few ignorant youtube comments. Broad brushes are no better against an age group than they are against a gender or an ethnicity.

I would really love if DUers could learn to can the Clockwork Orange references, realize that people have been bemoaning the flaws of the next generation since at least the time of Sophocles, and acknowledge the positive present in any demographic.

[RZM]

132. +1 n/t

[polly7]

3. I just heard on tv, I believe it was HLN, a woman say the information

used to get Osama was reported to have come from one of the black sites established under President Bush. She then went on to ask her guest "So, does this legitimize torture" Her exact words, in a sing-songy tone and just as pleasant a manner as though she were talking about the weather. Her guest more or less said well yes, ....... then I shut it off! I can understand why kids believe it's alright if this is what they're hearing.

[Solly Mack]

4. Sick puppies.

[fivepennies]

7. They've even taken to torturing themselves

tats - body piercing - cutting.

I read somewhere a long time ago that when youth moves in self-destructive directions it isn't long until you're looking at a bloody civil war. I think the book was about the run-up to the French Revolution and pointing out the behavior of young people just prior to it. Maybe it was Nesta Webster's rendition of the FR which IMO was the best one.

[Odin2005]

15. You think body mod culture is "self-torture" and compable to cutting?

:eyes:

[fivepennies]

21. No, cutting is definitely a mental issue

that needs serious intervention and is far worse than "body mod culture", as much as I dislike those godawful tongue studs ~ or whatever the hell they're called. And I'm not alone in that attitude. Many employers refuse to hire those who go over the top with body art and adding one more reason for not being hired in this economy is torture of a different kind.

[Dappleganger]

27. "Cutting" is a result of a mental disorder...

and those who do it do it in such a way that you'll never see it.

Body art, tats, piercings--that is as old as mankind itself. People who have done it gravitate towards jobs which allow them to have it.

Not everybody wants to work in a vanilla office environment. If you don't like it than don't look--it doesn't hurt you and isn't your business.

[Paradoxical]

18. Dumb dumb dumb.

[Dappleganger]

26. Here's news for you, that was around loooong before this.

As in, old as First Nations and many ancient cultures, as well as ours.

You must live in some nice vanilla area.

[fivepennies]

28. First Nations

Yep, and it wasn't called WAR paint for nothing.

[Dappleganger]

84. Are you kidding?

Have you never picked up a history book, or a National Geographic for that matter?

[a la izquierda]

159. Women in Africa and Latin America

were also "modified" by scarification or tattooing. Yet they weren't warriors.

Here's fivepennies. Please buy a clue.

Oh yeah...welcome to DU.

[Dawson Leery]

37. This trend has become very popular this past decade

[tranche]

66. And the "sexting"!

[a la izquierda]

158. Ah, for fuck's sake...

Yep, I support torture because I have my arms and legs tattooed and my nose pierced. I also have a PhD (well, I will in a week). I'm probably not the youth you're referring to (33), but for the love of God...tattooing is a VERY ANCIENT PRACTICE.

:grr:

[kestrel91316]

8. Subject one of their loved ones to torture for about 15 seconds. That number will change.

Young people today are such intellectually vapid twits.

[RZM]

133. You should read post #111

'Young people' includes a lot more than just 'vapid twits.' Every generation is diverse.

[themadstork]

142. Hey I'm not a vapid twit!

I'm just full of shit. ; )

[NashVegas]

12. So Glad I Don't Have Children

and don't have to try to raise a healthy one in this place.

[stuntcat]

141. exactly

I would not wish humanity's next 80+ years on someone I loved as much as I would love my child.

[russspeakeasy]

165. I'm glad mine are raised and doing o.k. on their own.

The next 50 or so years look like real trouble.

[regnaD kciN]

14. I hate to have to finally agree to such a move, but it's time to resume the draft...

When asked about the reverse, 41 percent thought it was permissible for American troops to be tortured overseas.

Get them off the sofa playing war games on Xbox, give them a helmet and an M-16, and stick their entitled asses on the firing line for real, and see if they still think it's "permissible" for our enemies to torture U.S. troops -- or for us to torture their troops, if it will lead to torture in return. :grr:

[coalition_unwilling]

70. I fully concur. Only problem is that most of them would find a way

to become REMFs, so they would never have to face up to the reality of torture.

[demosincebirth]

16. what do expect? eight hours a day killing and torturing playing video games

[Odin2005]

19. Wow, it took until post 16 before someone starting bashing video games.

:eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

42. I like video games but the current wave of video games is fucked up in its extreme action orientatio

Tell me what happened to intelligent video games? Adventure games? Actual role playing games? Non-combat sim games? Hmm? I thought not.

[Odin2005]

52. So when I raze a city when I'm playing Civilization 4 that means I support genocide?

:eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

61. How many pixels died to satisfy your bloodlust, Odin2005?

...Onward
Into the heart of battle
Fought the sons
Of Democratic Underground.
Outnumbered many times
Still they fought on
Blood poured fourth from their wounds deep into the earth
Vultures waited for the broken shells
That once were talking heads
But Odin2005 alone would choose the day
They would enter Valhalla
And in their hour of need
He sent forth unto them
THE BERSERKER RAGE!!!!!
Now gods and men
They rose up from the ground
Screaming like wild animals!
Such is the gift of absolute power
No blade or weapon would harm them
They killed men and horses alike!

[Norrin Radd]

83. Nethack taught my cat how to shoplift.

[JonLP24]

55. Final Fantasy XIII was released not too long ago

That game is textbook RPG. They also have another one coming out. A lot of the action video games mix in quite a bet of adventure. Red Dead Redemption is great in that regard. They got non-combat sim games but they are not very fun. PC is better suited for simulations by far.

[pot]

96. I thought FF13 was horrible personally.

I thought FF13 was horrible. Lots of people were disappointed with it. It is nothing like the classic RPGs. It was completely linear, basically a movie with battles in between each boss fight. Lost Odyssey for the 360 is a much better JRPG then FF13 is.

[JonLP24]

98. Thanks

I actually never played it. I played Final Fantasy 8 which I absolutely loved. After that I bought Final Fantasy 9 which was too cartoonish for me and the story wasn't nearly as great imo.

[pot]

102. FF8 was great.

FF8 was great. Sadly, FF13 was nothing like those classic Squaresoft RPGs. It was very linear, you just did a bunch of combat, fought a boss, long cutscene and repeat. There was no towns to actually explore, no shops to buy items, etc. It felt so lifeless.

[themadstork]

143. They're all still being made.

Maybe look for them and stuff.

[pot]

95. +1

Videogames are the cause of all that is wrong in this world.

[Occulus]

24. Oh please

That's just a stupid thing to say.

[Capitalocracy]

36. hmm, I love me some violent video games

and I still believe in the rule of law and putting criminals on trial. :shrug:

[TheKentuckian]

39. Or the state sanction and preaching of the practice.

Or the media romanticizing.

Or the lack of a serious opposition?

[demosincebirth]

74. what kind of shit you smoking? nt

[StarsInHerHair]

81. bingo-THE LACK OF A SERIOUS OPPOSITION

& the corpo-media saying for 8 years that torture is ok & it works, having pop culture agree helped a whole lot more. Seeing the Vice President himself saying it was ok ha a tremendous impact. I highly doubt it's video games, it's those in power, in positions of respect & authority, & pop culture that basically stuck a needle in the arms of those young enough to be in the process of forming a world-view, like heroin or meth-torture was forcefully injected as being acceptable. I blame the Left in & out of politics for not effectively opposing this bullshit.

[Paradoxical]

79. As a young person who grew up playing the Battlefield series, I have to disagree.

[Lucian]

101. I play video games.

In fact, Black Ops is my current favorite video game (get back online PSN!!) And I am anti-torture. About as anti-torture as anyone can get.

Argument fail.

[Odin2005]

17. Quit the youth-bashing folks, many teens are not going to have fully mature ethical reasoning.

[BlueStater]

23. Right. I'm sure I believed in some pretty stupid things when I was a teenager.

Of course, if they still think like this when they become adults then we've got a problem.

[Odin2005]

53. Exactly.

[antigone382]

43. Thank you.

Nothing says maturity and breadth of understanding like an unqualified condemnation of an entire age group as entitled, vapid, self-mutilating, video-game obsessed spoiled twits, based on a single poll.

[jtuck004]

105. Absolutely. Wait 'till they grow up and become President. eom

[gratuitous]

20. This is "shocking" and "surprising"?

The only thing surprising is that some people are shocked.

[bullwinkle428]

22. Thank you, Repuke school boards, for taking CIVICS out of public education!

:mad:

[Leopolds Ghost]

44. They were being taught commie things, like the Declaration of Independence and the Rights of Man

[MadHound]

25. That's what ten years of bipartisan support of torture will do.

Young impressionable minds see their leaders implicitly or explicitly supporting torture, they will start to think it is fine as well.

[chill_wind]

33. Yes.. As opposed to exemplary and very public justice for the perpetrators.

It's not difficult to understand the inferences.

[themadstork]

147. Exactly

Kids generally believe whatever their elders do. . . And then they rebel. Not impossible that we see a massive anti-torture backlash in the coming years.

[flvegan]

29. How many of these same folks believe pro-wrestling is real?

Yeah, pretty sad I'm sure.

[tranche]

30. I'm pretty sure none do. Much less then 30 years ago.

[flvegan]

58. I doubt that, but okay.

[sabrina 1]

31. I bet a poll of the Nazi youth would have had similar results.

We ARE the bad guys now. Sooner or later the world will take care of us, just as always happens when a country loses its soul to such an extent it becomes a threat to the rest of the world.

Polls already show that this is how the US is viewed. And at the same time, the US is losing its power which it has so abused, so rightly so.

[tranche]

34. If you're equating this country's youth with Nazis, then you've got a fucking mental problem.

What the fuck is going on here?

[sabrina 1]

45. Wow, you sound so tough, using words like 'fucking' and everything.

And yes, I am comparing any country whose youth supports torture in such large numbers, to nazi youth.

This country has gone backwards, we are headed back to the dark ages, as other countries' youth are going in the exact opposite direction. Moving FORWARD, into the future.

If this poll is accurate we have a fucking real problem in this country. I hope that is clear enough for you.

In Egypt and throughout the rest of the Arab world, they are abolishing their torture chambers. The heroes of the Egyptian and Tunisian youth movements were two young men who were VICTIMS of torture. Victims of regimes that were supported by THIS country who were known for their brutal torture chambers. But now, they are no more.

America's youth are returning to the past, while the youth of the rest of the world are moving towards a far more enlightened future.

And if you find it acceptable that we have over 60% of our children who support torture, presumably the likes of those dictators just ousted and hopefully more will be, then it is YOU I have to ask 'what the fuck is going on here'??

[tranche]

49. So the answer is yes.

Too bad. Before going off half cocked and proclaiming the country's youth Nazis, I'd spend a bit more time looking into it.

[sabrina 1]

57. If this poll is correct, as I said, we have a serious problem and

I imagine if a similar poll was taken of Nazi youth it would have found that a majority of them too supported torture. I thought I was pretty clear.

I would like to think this poll is not correct, considering that the young people I know certainly do not support torture, quite the opposite. But IF IT IS, then yes, we have a very, very serious problem.

[tranche]

60. Ok, so no youth that you know are Nazis, and none that I know are Nazis, then where are the Nazis?

So this poll may bring up some issues that can be corrected with education, but to reach fo the Nazi card so quick, is to me just dumb.

[sabrina 1]

75. There is a poll in the OP. The poll claims that a majority

of America's youth believe that torture is okay and a substantial number of them believes it is okay if US soldiers are tortured should they be captured.

I do not know if the poll is accurate. However, I am posting in the thread where this poll has been presented and that is what I am reacting to.

I will say it again. If this IS accurate, then this country has some serious problems. I find it to be outrageous and if true, a serious problem that needs to be addressed immediatel.

I certainly did suggest that if a similar poll had been taken of Nazi youth, a similar result would most likely have been found. You have reacted as if that is an outrageous statement.

Do you think that Nazi youth would NOT have produced similar results? Do you think they WOULD? I'm not sure what you are objecting to.

But I will say it again, this poll SHOULD produce outrage in any civilized society. And if it is not accurate, then someone needs to correct the information.

If it is, then no time should be wasted doing something about it.

[tranche]

149. Do you know what any similar poll's results where in the 90s? 70s? 50s?

How are you drawing your conclusions? It's a single poll with absolutely no context. I don't know about you, but I didn't see a lot of youth giving two shits when we fire-bombed entire Japanese cities, when you could hang those of a different color without anyone caring, when every person of Japanese decent was rounded up and left in camps. Was that a better time? Better than today?

The kids are fine. To equate them with Nazi youth is disgusting for any right thinking person. That's my objection.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. The process by which we got from my childhood to now is absolutely analogous.

It's an alien country. We're the frog boiled slowly.

[coalition_unwilling]

72. Um, Sabrina 1, do you think my 8 years protesting twice- and

thrice weekly against Bush in the streets will somewhat indemnify me from the final reckoning? :)

I fully hope so but am afraid I may have placed a bet on a long shot. I protested against Bush so that I could say to my progeny that I did everything within my power to stop the fascism.

[sabrina 1]

76. Good for you for protesting all of what led to where we are today.

We tried, I'm sure that counts for something. The odds against us winning were far greater than we knew though. Torture is now 'debatable' in this country. There is not regard for the law, and our current president doesn't think we should holding torturers accountable.

Still, I look at other countries where things were even worse, like Egypt and Tunisia and see them smashing the infrastructure of their 'security state'. Tunisia, I read recently, is now freer than the US. In just a matter of months, they kicked out their dictatorial regime, shut down the torture chambers and ended the 'state of emergency' that allowed the government to act with impunity against those who dared to raise their voices in dissent.

If they could do all that in so short a time, after so long a time living under a dictatorship, it gives me hope that the human spirit will only tolerate the kind of evil creeping into this society, for so long.

I'm sure you'll be fine when the final reckoning comes. Like you I wanted history to record that not all Americans supported the evils of the Bush era even if we were unable to stop them :-)

[coalition_unwilling]

77. I will sleep easier tonight and hereafter (I think). I do think a

fiery day of reckoning awaits us. I shudder to think of it.

However, reading your reply reminded me of a really funny, hand-written, sign I saw at one of the early protests against Bush:

"Canada, please liberate us. We apologize for all the moose jokes!" :)

My wife is from Canada, so it made it all the funnier

[sabrina 1]

78. Lol, that is funny!

I'm sure your wife got a kick out of it also ~ :-)

[tranche]

32. ridiculous conclusions will be drawn from this

[Ninjaneer]

127. I think its safe to say

that ship has sailed. Currently being commandeered by Nazi children too.

[Capitalocracy]

35. 41% think it's OK for Americans to be tortured by foreign powers?

Wow. Impressive. So it's not even so much an American exceptionalism thing as it is a we've learned that torture is OK thing.

At least they're not hypocrites about it.

Heavy.

[Leopolds Ghost]

38. These are the same kids who make up majority of "pop culture geeks" who praise violent games & movie

And condemn those that are insufficiently action-oriented.

Has anyone noticed the death of non-action video games, roughly 10-15 years ago?

And the impending death of non-action movies as "films" go to 3D?

I predict the eventual merger of TV, Internet and video games into a seamless flatscreen VR environment where teens can do their 2 minutes hate against live foreign subjects in real time.

Sort of like Ender's Game.

[Leopolds Ghost]

47. Note, I say that as someone who grew up w/ games and fun movies but the trend is unmistakable.

Films and games that used to be condemned for their "edgy" content are now criticized as insufficiently bloody and too talky and too intellectual. All that matters is that the graphics are good enough that you can see the blood spatter.

Even "artsy" films and games have become primarily about action content and devoid of real ethics, even some of the oft-seen greatest films of the past 10 years. All spectacle, and when you get down to it, hollow and devoid of analysis of the violence contained therein, i.e. the violence exists solely to satisfy our need to entertain ourselves with violence. It's a cathartic experience.

At least in the old days, we were hypocritical about it.

[JonLP24]

50. These days

Video games aren't fun if they aren't shooters. I like some sports games but I know people who like sports don't like sports video games. I think sports games suffer from a lack of "happy medium" such as either too hard or too easy.

Also with games focusing more and more on online gaming, you'll see more shooters because those games are terrific to play against other people online. Also shooters factor in a lot of things that make games fun such as character building and open world gameplay. Though besides GTA, shooters are not really open-world. Borderlands is semi-open world.

Other than that I can't think of modern day console non-action game that is fun. If you like strategy based games, PC is definitely the way to go. Strategy games on consoles are horrible. I think it is because there are certain things you can do on games for PC that you can't do on games for consoles, the reverse is also I think.

As far as films, I think there are plenty of non-action films but I could be wrong.

[Leopolds Ghost]

54. The funny thing is I'm a big fan of cheesy action epics

But there has to be good acting and story and music.

Conan the Barbarian, for instance. A movie they are sadly remaking without Arnold!

[Odin2005]

56. If you think non-action video games are dead, you aren't paying attention.

Get a Wii.

[RZM]

135. I don't have a Wii, but I get the impression that 'non-action video games' are its best sellers

[Bozita]

46. History repeats itself ... again and again.

Unfuckingbelievable.

[Modern_Matthew]

51. Give them time. I went through many stages before arriving where I'm at...

I was in middle school when 9/11 happened and have been glued to current events since then.

[tranche]

59. Are most of your former classmates Nazis?

Just curious. I've got a poster above that's convinced you are.

[Odin2005]

63. I was 15 when 9/11 happened and me and my peers wanted to nuke Mecca.

I clearly remember my classmate and good friend Steve getting all up about turning Mecca into "nuclear glass"... :yoiks:

[Paradoxical]

80. Same here. I remember talking about nuking the entire middle east.

I was in elementary school/ junior high at the time.

Which is funny because right-wingers are about on the same level as my 12 year old self.

[antigone382]

114. Yep, I was eighteen when it happened.

As horrific as it was, and as worried as I was because of my personal connection to events (my brother was an Army Ranger at the time), there was a part of me that was excited to be part of a "cause," having always envied both the WWII generation and the 60's generation, as contradictory as that seems, because they both had a grand narrative to be part of. I never really found Bush to be an inspiring leader, and I always questioned the Iraq War, but I know I didn't fully understand what the flashing lights of nighttime bomb drops really meant for the people affected. It took me years to really understand the significance of war, and of the U.S.'s role in the world.

Teenagers don't have a fully developed sense of empathy or moral reasoning; the brain doesn't finish developing until the age of twenty-five, actually. But that isn't going to stop the requisite denigration of the character and ethics of an entire generation, based on a single, unreplicated poll.

[BobbyBoring]

137. I was 26 when we had the Iranian hostage crisis

At that time, many people I knew were in favor of turning the entire ME in to a 9,873 hole golf course and all we had was Pong!

[krabigirl]

62. .... :(

[Zorra]

64. I bet 97% of US parents with teens think torture is ok too.

:spank:

[coalition_unwilling]

65. Torture (and extra-judicial executions) are as American as

cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown)

[chill_wind]

73. Really not shocking. When we elected a new leader who stood at the moral crossroads

confronted with a choice of paths, and what to do at last about Bushco, we had a chance to choose the ugly harsh light of example and justice. That was too difficult. Instead we chose Holder and Panetta.

Yoo and Bybee aren't in prison for their deeds and ideas. They're both gainfully employed. No destroyers of the CIA torture tapes are in prison.War crimes have been codified into a new DOJ legalese we've come to call simply bad judgement. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are still walking around quite free to rewrite their own versions of history and be on our TV's and in our book stores telling us all about it.

What's the lesson? In what meaningful way have we shown this generation we believe in other rules?

[mochajava666]

86. Well said

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. What have we done?

We did this.

Someone from 1976 couldn't immediately absorb the ways we've changed.

[xchrom]

89. recommend

[Jefferson23]

90. How sad is that..look at the way some grew up since 9/11. FEAR, be afraid,

as they hate you for our freedoms. Even if none ever watched Fox News, the remainder of the
MSM gave Bush a pass. 35 Democrats voted yes to the Military Commission Act, the Patriot Act
only reinforces fear too.

We taught them well I guess.

[jp11]

116. The country failed them, just as it keeps failing children over and over

with education, foreign policy, wars, etc.

[SoCalDem]

92. P)eople who are teens now, have been playing vicious video games since they

could get their little hands around a game controller . Slasher movies are favorites of younger teens & adolescents, and no matter how they get rated, they still get watched..

Life is cheap these days, and many kids have never learned much from parents who are often working long hours just to keep the wolves from the doorstep..

sad all the way around:(

[pot]

99. So it's videogames fault? That is BS.

[SoCalDem]

107. Thank you. We are all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.

:hi:

[Locrian]

167. video games etc

I dont really think it's the games as it is the isolation that kids get playing them vs INTERACTING (yeah, I know kids interact in games but gimme a break).

We have been divided and conquered. We are isolated narcissists, with little empathy left for "fellow man".

At the very point in history where limited resources, climate change, wars etc where we NEED to cooperate to find the best solution we are retreating into our selfishness.

[Lucian]

103. See post 101.

Again. Argument fail.

[SoCalDem]

106. Thank you. We are all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.

:hi:

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucian]

100. 60% of teens are idiots.

[WinkyDink]

120. As are their elders running the government?

[Overseas]

109. K&R. very sad --- Nuremberg Nuremberg

Do they know what the Nuremberg trials were?

Do they know that people were executed for using waterboard torture?

[shanti]

113. until they are tortured themselves

:eyes:

[BlueIris]

115. A generation of ghouls. (Don't trust anyone under thirty.) nt

[WinkyDink]

121. Which generation is doing the actual waterboarding?

[JonLP24]

156. Exactly

It is video games, movies, but definitely not the over 50 Bush Administration

[mountainlion55]

123. Good one

:applause:

[antigone382]

152. Wow, what a nuanced perspective.

I'm glad your moral compass was fully developed and dead-on when you were a teenager.

[KamaAina]

117. And we wonder why bullying has become an epidemic

:eyes:

[WinkyDink]

119. "Shocking"? I should think a higher % would be expected. As it will be, a decade hence. Thank you,

Leon Panetta for your wishy-washy response about "enhanced interrogation."

[Blue Owl]

124. Thanks Bu$hCo

NOT

[grahamhgreen]

125. Exactly why we made this movie.

[mmonk]

126. Sad indictment of a country gone dark.

Sad indictment of their parents and upbringing. Sad indictment of today's religious community. But I guess silence is consent.

[Daphne08]

131. The Bush administration has forever changed our country's

future and its value system.

And know-nothing right-wingers continually parrot propaganda from the likes of FOX, talk radio, the right-wing "think tanks" and television shows (and movies) which glorify torture.

When I was growing up, we were taught that torture was used only by dictatorial regimes.

The American value of NO TORTURE was set by George Washington.

This story makes me feel very sad. :-(

[stuntcat]

139. compassion will be gradually bred out of our species.

I'm serious.

People who are too horrified by humanity and what we're doing will not give the next 80-90 years to an innocent baby.
But raising a family is still the great definition of Success.. thus the heartless success-monkey will be more likely to have 3-4 babies than the bleeding heart we all so love to mock. Decade by decade the kids will be more accepting of violence, disaster, earth-rape.

I'm afraid I have to go on watching this horror until at least 2050. And that is when I hope someone will contact me in my hospital bed and mock me for how wrong I was saying humans are f'ed. I'm serious.

[themadstork]

146. Don't lose hope

My fiance and I (both liberals) intend to make bunches of babies. (Or more likely, adopt a bunch.) They will grow up without TV, and they will get an actual education. If there's a population war between pro-torturers and the anti-, we'll certainly be doing our part. . .

It's a nasty world to bring kids into, but the more kids who can be raised to be generous, empathetic, principled, and respectful of others' right to exist, the better. . .

[katty]

144. well, that is nothing short of tragic

[Skip_In_Boulder]

145. Great, we are raising a whole new generation of psychopaths. n/t

[tranche]

150. Any idea what these numbers were for other generations?

Or is this just another public flogging of those damn kids?

[bertman]

151. They're American teenagers for fuck's sake. Non-issue. Most teens don't think

about such things and especially don't deliberate the moral dimensions of things like torture or indefinite detention.

[FiveGoodMen]

153. If they're teens, they've never really known an America that was better than that.

And if current trends continue, they never will.

[Bonobo]

160. And now they will believe murder is okay...

As long as the victim is "bad" enough.

[Enrique]

161. too young to understand why it's wrong

their cognitive abilities are still developing.

[DeadEyeDyck]

163. oh dear

[Avant Guardian]

164. This country is on a collision course with RW disaster